Obama On Message

In a sign of things to come if Barack Obama does become the Democratic nominee, John McCain hit Obama for a statement he made in last night's debate.

First, what Obama said (h/t TPM):

"As commander in chief, I will always reserve the right to make sure that we are looking out for American interests. And if al-Qaida is forming a base in Iraq, then we will have to act in a way that secures the American homeland and our interests abroad."

McCain's predictable response:

"When you examine that statement, it's pretty remarkable. I have some news. Al-Qaida is in Iraq. It's called `al-Qaida in Iraq,'"

To his credit, Barack Obama responded swiftly at a campaign stop in Columbus, OH today (h/t Ben Smith):

"John McCain may like to say he wants to follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell, but so far all he's done is follow George Bush into a misguided war in Iraq," he said.

"McCain thought that he could make a clever point by saying, 'Well let me give you some news, Barack, Al Qaeda is in Iraq,' like I wasn't reading the papers, like  didn't know what was going on." Obama said, leaning into his developing McCain impression.

He then described the context -- a hypothetical question from Tim Russert -- and said, "First of all, I do know Al Qaeda is in Iraq, and that's why I said we should continue to strike Al Qaeda targets."

"I have some news for John McCain," Obama continued, "That's there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain" began the Iraq war, he said.

"They took their eye off the people who really were responsible for 9/11," he said.

Obama and Clinton have been consistently on-message tying McCain to Bush at every opportunity and it's good to see him do so again here but this exchange points to a real problem for Obama were he to be McCain's opponent in the general: McCain's experience advantage.

Today's LA Times/Bloomberg general election match-up is the second poll in as many days to show McCain up over Obama, albeit within the margin of error (the first being the USA Today/Gallup) and the internals demonstrate why.

From USA Today:

Americans are split, 46%-46%, over whether Obama, a first-term senator, has the experience to be president. In contrast, Clinton is seen as having enough experience by 2-1, McCain by 3-1.

And from The LA Times:

McCain runs ahead of Obama on every issue except health care. The Arizona senator has a 13-point advantage on Iraq and a 37- point lead on terrorism.

Obama's strategy against McCain will, of course, be not only to tie McCain to Bush but also to use the argument he's used against Clinton, making experience actually a dirty word and making the case that judgment is more important than Washington experience. So far in the primary, Obama's lack of experience has not been a hindrance, in fact it's arguably been an asset to him but will that remain so against McCain if they are the nominees? Right now, I suspect Obama's experience deficit is the primary reason these election match-ups are even close and exchanges like the one above probably favor McCain. The problem for Obama is that over the next few months, McCain can distance himself from Bush but Obama can't gain the experience. The problem for McCain, of course, is that this country deeply hates this war.

So, I have no doubt Obama can overcome this concern among voters and we can effectively eat away at the mysterious confidence that voters who otherwise lean toward voting Democratic have in John McCain, but it's telling that these two general election match-ups that show McCain actually up over Obama, the first since January to do so, come in the wake of the recent New York Times article and deep scrutiny into McCain's lobbyist ties. That would seem to indicate that the US electorate at large may be far less susceptible to a "McCain is a part of the problem in Washington" message than Democratic primary voters have been and that turning McCain's experience into a liability may be far more difficult than we think.



Display:


Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I think it's only fair to mention that Clinton trails McCain more substantially in the LA Times poll. It's not the biggest deal, but the omission might seem to imply some kind of advantage for Clinton.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:20:15 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (1.00 / 0)

what kind of advantage ?

just in case you didn't read the post , it was on obama and mccain.

by the way a -2 , or -6 , is not Z" more substantial" , don't know what the moe is but it could all well be in it.

the post is about obama and mccain , i don't see why he should state what you said he should and i don't see any unfair advantage outside of paranoia.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

Well, one reason to mention it is that Todd is attributing Obama's deficit to his lack of experience. Yet, Hillary has more experience but a greater deficit. This could be explained by Hillary's problems in other areas, but it seems worth mentioning if we're serious about interpreting the data.

But, the main reason to mention it is just clarity. Omissions can be construed to imply things--in this case, the implication would be that Clinton fares better versus McCain, which isn't so.

Again, it's not a big deal.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Nobody can beat a war hero.  I think it's time to
realistically forget about the presidential election, and concentrate on Congress.  Make sure
McCain has to deal with a more Democratic Congress.  That can still happen.
by mikelow1885 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

can't beat a war hero? (none / 0)

Uh...tell that to Bush circa 2000..he might be surprised to here that.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

John Kerry, Bob Dole, and George H.W. Bush were all war heroes.  


by telephasic on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:07:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

Or, it could mean nothing at all, as the MoE is bigger then McCain's leads.

Can't get caught up in every little poll fluctuation...

I don't understand how you could posit that McCains' position of defending the Iraq war is in any way strong.  He is fighting from a serious disadvantage.


by Cycloptichorn on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (1.00 / 0)

"I have some news for John McCain," Obama continued, "That's there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain" began the Iraq war, he said.

I don't know if I believe this at all.  Where is he getting this information?  


by JustJennifer on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:22:11 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

It's common knowledge Al-Qaeda wasn't there and it was a central reason why the war was a mistake.

Of courss if you believe it, then maybe you believe the war is a good thing.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Is this a serious question?


by davisb on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I dunno... maybe from everywhere?

How about the 9/11 Commission Report?  How about the fact that the group "Al Qaeda in Iraq" didn't exist until after we invaded?

I don't think it's even been open for debate, unless you were one of those people who thought that Iraq was tied to 9/11.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Invading Iraq was a FUBAR of epic (none / 0)

proportions.

Jim Webb called it exactly right before we went in.

Took the eye off the ball in Afghanistan, greatly enhanced Iran's power & gave the genuine terrorists the opportunity to kill Americans, more easily.

Besides that, our invasion weakened the United Nations and the Iraqi AUMF extended the horrible War Powers precedents that include the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and the invasion has seriously weakened our military.

Oh and thousands of dead Americans, tens of hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, and DEBT as far as the eye can see.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Invading Iraq was a FUBAR of epic (none / 0)

What about an Obama/Webb ticket?  It gives the Obama camp national security chops.  It gives voters a chance to vote for another accomplished service man instead of McCain.  It would probably shove Virginia from purple to blue and Webb was so drooled over by the press after his win as "a new type of moderate democrat" (inaccurately I think) that it allows independents and disillusioned republicans to vote for change.  Change is a concept that's polled well among the same groups.

I think that the democrats could win the White House with any of our candidates or with a Pet Rock,  maybe even by running a Chia Pet against John McCain.  Look at the fund raising, the number of donors, the turn out, the number of conservatives that will never vote for McCain.

I realize that a lot of people at this site really want a President Clinton, but the number of folks around here who are just positive that BO can't possibly win and we'd better just concentrate down ticket makes me wonder if maybe perceptions have been formed as much by desires as reality.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Depends on demographics (IMHO) (none / 0)

Jim Webb would open up Southern States such as Virginia:

Virginia is considered as a red state, having voted for the Republican candidate in all presidential elections since 1952 except during 1964's Democratic landslide.

His FISA stance worries me however.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Invading Iraq was a FUBAR of epic (none / 0)

i've been thinking a lot about an obama/webb ticket.  it's really got a lot going for it (as you mentioned).  i'd be interested if anyone could think of reasons why this wouldn't be a great ticket???  (no obama-haters need reply, thanks :)


by bluedavid on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:31:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Invading Iraq was a FUBAR of epic (none / 0)

I guess I don't argue that it would be a great ticket but I hate to see Webb leave that seat.  I hate to lose his voice in the Senate where he is currently giving us some serious national security credentials.


by nintendofanboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No thanks (none / 0)

Webb screwed the pouch on FISA.

Obama/Kaine I could get behind and would have far more impact and be a much stronger ticket, particularly in VA.


by lestatdelc on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No thanks (none / 0)

Kaine is actually fine with me too.  Virginia is worth 13 electoral college votes.  If we can get the same states as Kerry got and add Virginia and Missouri (perhaps the swingiest of states) which is worth another 11 then we won't even need to worry about Ohio or Florida.  

Given the overall craptasticness of the Ohio GOP of late, we may have a pretty damn good shot at the Buckeye State too.

What we really need is for Lloyd Carr (who has free time these days) to volunteer for the McCain campaign.  The guy just can't win where Ohio is concerned.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF? (none / 0)

Do you believe there was a link between Saddam and 9/11?

Maybe he really had WMD after all, now hidden in Syria.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WTF? (none / 0)

No I don't think there was a link between Saddam and 9/11.  But to say there was no influence of Al Queda in Iraq before.. I dunno I think it's hard to say where they were and where they weren't.  And no I am not a Republican or a John McCain fan - just a true skeptic about any and all information our government has been feeding us about the "terrorists" and who and where they really are.  


by JustJennifer on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There was no... (2.00 / 1)

...meaningful connection with the group that would (after the invasion) rename itself Al Qaeda in Iraq with the Saddam regime. In fact they operated in the Kurdish/US controlled north prior to the invasion, and Bush refused on three separate occasions to take out Ansar al-Islam (aka Al Qaeda in Iraq) before the invasion, because they were using him as a propaganda tool to link "Al Qaeda" to the Saddam regime and hence 9/11 to help sell the invasion.

All of which was throughly debunked by not only media reports, by the 9/11 commission itself.

Seriously, there is no question that Obama is correct on this on the merits and on the optics vs. McCain's bogus attempt at a political bomb-throw. Google is your friend BTW.


by lestatdelc on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There was no... (none / 0)

I never said I believed McCain.  And I sure as hell have never believed George Bush.  I am just a skeptic when it comes to any information regarding Al Queda, who they are, where they are, and who is really funding them.  I am not quite on the level with the conspiracy theorist but I will say it isn't that hard for me to believe that the US was instrumental in setting Al Queda up to be the target so we could act on the plans of the neo-cons behind Bush 43.  


by JustJennifer on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

   Wow.  They've come to MyDD.  Never thought I'd see the day.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Do you read, watch, or listen to the news?  


by sbbonerad on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Jennifer, you cant be that ignorant: There was no Alqueada in Iraq before the Invasion! In fact, "Alqueada in Iraq" is a creation of Bush which serves as a sort of boogieman to justify the killings and bombings of innocent iraqis.


by AnthonyMason on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 04:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Keep Your Eye on the Prize: November (2.00 / 1)

Even though I don't believe any polls anymore, despite what progressives think, if this boils down to the war and to homeland security, Obama is toast to a war veteran like McCain. In every picture of the two of them together, Obama looks like a 12 year old boy looking up to his father.


by thetruthsquad on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:23:19 PM EST

Re: Keep Your Eye on the Prize: November (2.00 / 0)

Newsflash- Clinton is toast too. A former first lady with a shaky Senate voting record on foriegn affairs hated by half the country vs. a war veteran. It'll be framed as the "witch vs. the warrior"


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great, another member of the Democratic (none / 0)

Capitulation Caucus.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great, another member of the Democratic (none / 0)

As opposed to the cheerleaders for the "Great Conservative No-Win War Strategy". You're only destroying the American Armed Forces and for nothing. Perhaps there's a reason active duty military are donating more to Obama, Edwards, Clinton, and even Ron Paul before they're giving to McCain.


by Skipster on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My preference is to attack McCain (2.00 / 0)

head on. The Iraq War was a strategic blunder from Day One.

We do not need to be hawkish on Iraq out of fear of the American electorate.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said above thread... (none / 0)

John Kerry, Bob Dole, and George H.W. Bush were all war heroes.  And they all lost.  


by telephasic on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said above thread... (none / 0)

So what? This is the liberal blogosphere. Don't confuse them with the facts or past histroy. Their minds are made up.
Anything containing gloom and doom for the Dems is thje absolute word ardun here.
by spirowasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What nonsense (none / 0)

The vast majority support getting out of Iraq. War hero means nothing (as other have pointed out) in that numerous "war heros" lost presidential races.


by lestatdelc on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

McCain's strategy....National Security, trust.


by Liberty on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:26:48 PM EST

I'll take Obama's experience gap (none / 0)

against McCain over Clinton's honesty gap vs. McCain (so long as we're talking about perception).


by CarolinaNumber23 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:30:06 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 1)

Shouldn't this have been the conversation before now?


by bruh21 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:30:23 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Well thetruthsquad, what's are our options here?  The American people rejected Biden, Dodd, HRC and Edwards so honestly, its Obama.  The only concern I have is that I think Obama's popularity can only go down from here on out because from now on the country as a whole will have a say.  It's just sad that in the midst of 4,000 dead soldiers and an incoming recession we can even have a close election.  America why won't you wake up and see that McCain is only 4 more years of Bush..


by nzubechukwu on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:30:27 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

It's coming close to time to give up on this country. It won't change until ti destroys itself and then it will be too late.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

yuck.  what a defeatist...


by bluedavid on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

A defeatist yes, but just one of the crwod here in the ilberal blogosphere.


by spirowasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Everyone's unfavorables go up in a general election.  McCain's will go up too.

American's no that McCain isn't Bush, but if they think he's basically continuing the policies of Bush, it should have some resonance.

On the other hand, people tend to just vote for who they like, rather than on issues anyway.  So getting McCain's unfavorables up and his favorables down will be important going into the general election.  Once we actually get into the general election (ie, we have a presumptive nominee), this is what should start to happen.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

Obama is the choice of the MSM, some former Republicans such as Arianna Huff, DKos and John Aravosis, and the Independent and Republican voters.  We, the true blue Democrats got screwed because if it is true that Obama is a movement, then he should be blowing away McCain by at least 20%.


by tiffany on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I'm sorry, but if you honestly believe that Obama's negatives are going to go through the roof and therefore cost him the election, HRC would be no different.  She ALREADY has a net-negative favorability rating, but you're argument is that somehow her's can only improve while Obama's can only go down, at the same time that McCain will somehow hold his own because he's a "known" quantity?

That's a lot of assumptions there... HRC would be no better off in this election if what you're saying is true.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

At this point, I would not be surprised if Obama won more than 60% of the vote in the end. Simply because he will have a much easier time to motivate the electorate to actually come out and vote. Why should evangelicals vote for McCain? Well I don't know, and I think nobody does. Big parts of the Republican electorate are basically not motivated to do anything in this election. They will tell every pollster their standard response, that they will vote Republican. But they won't move their asses because, honestly, they don't care about John McCain.


by marcotom on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Yeah well we're not playing blackjack. It's ok to get over 21.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:32:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Iraq War was a MISTAKE (none / 0)

in every conceivable sense and staying another hundred years will only make it worse for America.

Obama eviscerates McCain on the Iraq War issues.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Americans are not stupid, they know McCain for what he is, his own man, hero, maverick - someone who didn't particularly like Bush.  Big mistake - Americans won't buy it.

Which is why he won't lose to either of our candidates.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Iowa rejected Biden, dodd, etc.  The rest of us had only a choice of two.  This true blue Democrat is disgusted by this undemocratic primary and the only way I feel the DNC will hear me is if I Probably stay home in NOV. I am sick of the way Obama's campaign race baited the Clintons, I am sick of the way Republicans and Independents are choosing my Democratic nominee and i am sick of the way the MSM and many blogs have become agenda driven liars and hypocrites.  


by tiffany on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Stay home in November if you want, but the Democratic Party will not listen to you if you do.

Personally, I have a few friends in Iraq. If something happens to them because McCain got elected because people like you stayed home because your candidate didn't win or dropped out too early, they would be hell to pay.

This isn't about you.

I supported Edwards and he lost. I got over it, so should you.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

No end in sight to the war.  McCain says: hell why not another hundred years?  That makes him easy to label as W's third term.  The economy will be in the middle of a recession by election time. Obama is an incredible inspirational speaker.  Even if you're an Obama hater you'll likely admit that.  He sells Hope incredibly well whether you bought it or not.  

McCain standing next to Obama comes across as yet another old white guy from the GOP.  That fact combined with his huggy squeezy love affair with Boosh and Boosh policy will sink him.  

Obama comes across as fresh and new.  Guess what?  When you ask voters of just about any stripe what they say they're looking for, the answer most often comes back: change.  Obama wins this thing easily.  McCain quits politics altogether right afterwards.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain does have more experience. (2.00 / 1)

But if experience was what the voters were looking for he wouldn't be beating Clinton.  Voters want change and there's no way McCain will provide that.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:32:46 PM EST

Brilliant answer!!! (none / 0)

Give 'em HELL Obama!!!!!


by puma on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:33:17 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Then why is he (McCain) ahead GFORD?


by nzubechukwu on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:33:28 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

He has a point...the country does want change, it just doesn't know where to get it from.

This election is a question between whether or not this country truly wants progressive change; to do a whole 180 from Bush and the GOP...or does it want Republicans who aren't Bush?

If it's the latter, well, then our 2012 candidate is not going to be at all progressive.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All Obama needs now is (none / 0)

Webb or Clark as his VP and we're good to go!!!


by puma on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:34:19 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I have to say, it is kind of sad that the NYTimes thing seemed to actually raise McCain's support.

It sort of goes along with the idea that, once someone has an impression of a person, nothing can change it and actually contradicting information will just cause people to get defensive and increase support.  The general impression people have of McCain, for whatever reason, is that he's a "straight shooter" and a "standup guy".  When a NYTimes story comes along and tries to distort that, the response isn't "Oh... I guess I was wrong about him", it's "That can't be true!  He's such a straight-shooter!"

Hopefully, once we have a presumptive nominee, people will start focusing more on the general election race and have a more critical eye for him.  I think right now there's still so much activity in the Democratic race that it may be skewing results.  There are probably even HRC supporters who, for the sake of the poll, are refusing to say they'll support Obama in the GE (and vice versa), even though they probably will in the end.  Once the nomination fight is over with, the nominee will probably get a "bump" in the polls anyway, which will hopefully counteract this recent McCain bump.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:39:13 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Well, one story isn't enough to weaken settled attitudes toward a person. However, a steady line of criticism can be. So, we need to target some character problems with McCain (e.g., flip-flopping, doesn't play well with others, lobbyist influence) and stick with these criticisms over a period of time. Moreover, the criticism needs to be done carefully in order to avoid backlash. It certainly can be done, but one (bad) NY Times story can't be enough.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Agreed, and this is partially why I think it's probably related to how early this story is coming out too...  People are still focused on the Democratic primary, and we don't really have a presumptive nominee yet.  Once we do, I suspect that we'll have more of an ability to start chipping away at McCain.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do you ignore the core of Obama's point? (none / 0)

He added: "I've gone some news for John McCain: He took us into a war, along with George Bush, that should have never been authorized and never been waged. They took their eye off the people who were responsible for 9/11, and that would be al Qaeda in Afghanistan that is stronger now than anytime since 2001."

al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq before we invaded.

The decision to authorize and wage that war was a HUGE strategic blunder.

Obama can and will shove that down McCain's throat.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:48:52 PM EST

Re: Why do you ignore the core of Obama's point? (none / 0)

maybe,

but people aren't so concerned about what happened in the past.  Most people supported the war, and don't want Obama scolding them. The 'surge' as been at least partly successful, in terms of casualties, and Mc Cain will get credit for that.


by bigbay on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The only people Obama will scold (none / 0)

are Beltway insiders.

The American people were LIED to. Remember?


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Once he has the nomination absolutely sewn up, look for McCain begin moderating his stance on Iraq just enough to satisfy those moderate voters who want us out of Iraq, but believe that before we go, we have to "fix the mess Bush created".  That alone will win McCain the independent voters, I'm afraid.


by aggieric on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:49:14 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I've been saying that, and it will be to the country's peril.

Although Dems can use his "100 years in Iraq" quote;

"Is he REALLY going to fix the mess and get us home?"


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)


by aggieric on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:49:21 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

The poll is interesting.  The polls continue to ask the question about experience.  It seems Sen. Obama has been able to change the experience debate to a judgment debate.  I wonder if people still care about experience or if pollsters just continue to ask that question anyway.  If Sen. Obama can continue to do that in the general election I would be really surprised if Sen. McCain has a chance at all.  I guess this is the fun of picking apart hypothetical polls.  


by jakedecker on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:49:36 PM EST

Obama's Soldier Story (none / 0)

As Democrats, I don't know why we're not promoting this all over this place;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/27 /army-chief-of-staff-gener_n_88737.html

It refutes the "Obama is inexperienced, so his judgement is bad" meme.

Let's face it, he's likely to be the nominee, let's cover ourselves if he is.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:51:56 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

The comments on this page demonstrate how a protracted primary fight will distract us from winning the general.


by JoeFelice on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:52:33 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

No they demonstrate that once again when it comes to selecting nominees we are day late, dollar short. ALl of this stuff was predictable, and predicted by a lot of us. Why the surprise now that its actually true?


by bruh21 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

What exactly are you trying to say? That in some weird dream world of yours Hillary Clinton would not fact the same problems that Barack Obama does against John McCain?


by marcotom on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

The worst part is that as long as it continues the Hillary supporters are carrying McCain's water as the No. 1 perpetuators of the Experience Meme.

I'm hoping Hill takes the high road and bows out after next Tuesday for the good of the party.  Her supporters need to leave their talking points to McCain.  

Once they are on board we will see these polls turn,  as they no longer answer that experience is the most important thing ever.


by nintendofanboy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

That LA Times poll overcounted Republicans. I think that's obvious.


by obamania on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:52:40 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

That one had Obama up 4 on McCain, no?

Not sure what the make-up of the poll was, though.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 0)

Clinton wasn incumbent Presidnet who was vitually uunopposed and Obama is a newcomeer still in a primary fight maybe?


by spirowasright on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Richmond,

Please give it up alright. Hillary polls worse in both. I'm sorry your girl lost, but do you honestly want to see McCain in the White House?

It's over. Let's move on and win the election.

Also, to answer your question: Yes, I think Gallup overcounted Republicans. They are notorious for doing so.

NYTimes/CBS has Obama 12 percent ahead of McCain. Every other poll has Obama ahead of McCain.

It's time for Democrats to unite.


by obamania on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (2.00 / 1)

I can't help but share this comment (from a thread at Ezra's):

To build on Helter's point, a poster in the original Drum thread did some math:
Since 1976, the candidate with more experience in Washington has lost 7 out of 8:

Ford 28, Carter 0
Carter 4, Reagan 0
Mondale 16, Reagan 4
GHWB 12 (not counting CIA, UN, etc), Dukakis 0 [the exception]
GHWB 16 (again, not counting . . .), Clinton 0
Dole 26, Clinton 4
Gore 24, GWB 0
Kerry 20, GWB 4

McCain has 26; Obama 4; HRC 16 if you count the firstladyship, 8 if not.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezrak lein_archive?month=02&year=2008& base_name=experience_and_comfort#comment -6157717


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:53:17 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Very interesting.
Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Not sure exactly how "experience" is counted there, but both Clinton and GWB were governors before being elected President.  I wouldn't really call that "0" years of experience.


by leshrac55 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Yeah, the post to which this comment responded had emphasized the importance of "Washington experience." Basically, it was discounting Obama's experience at the state level (8 years). So, the above numbers are meant to rebut the claim that Washington experience is that important to voters.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

That's deceiving because it just measure experience in Washington not experience in total. Reagan had equal governing experience to Carter in 1980. The thing is that after a certain point experience brings diminishing returns too. People see Hillary as qualified as McCain because she meets the qualification hurdle. Obama does not. Someone who hasn't even served one senate term will not be seen as qualified by most of the electorate.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Obama has as much (actually, more) experience than Carter did in 1976. And, he beat a very experienced incumbent during the Cold War.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Obama does not have more experience than Carter did. Carter had served one full term as governor. Obama hasn't even made it 4 years in the senate yet.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

But, Obama has 8 years as an Illinois senator. Add 4 years of national experience as a US senator and that compares pretty favorable with Carters 4 years as state governor with no national experience.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

No one seriously considers Obama's record in the Il Senate as experience. Carter served time in the GA legislature too.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Carter:
4 Years in Georgia State Senate
4 Years as Governor of GA

Obama:
8 Years in Illinois State Senate
4 Years as US Senator

How exactly did Carter have more experience?  Do you consider 4 years as Governor more experience than 4 as US Senator?


by davisb on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Obama only has 3 years as a senator not 4.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

4 years come election day.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I'm going by the time they are sworn in and/or rounding up from election day.


by davisb on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

I'm talking about right now.
2005 1 year
2006 1 year
2007 1 year.
That totals 3 complete years. You can't jump ahead. He is competing now with the inexperience he has not the inexperience he will have.
No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Ok fine.  Than I suppose you're saying 4 years as the Governor of Georgia is somehow more relevant that 3 years as a United States Senator?


by davisb on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:46:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Okay, let's add Carter's 2 years as a state rep. Obama still has more experience.

I don't see why being a state senator doesn't count at all, while being a state governor is given so much significance. And Illinois is a much larger state than Georgia, which should count for something.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

That should say "Carter's 4 years as a state senator. . ."


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Obama doesn't have more experience. I think counting state legislative experience makes Obama's experience problem even worse.

A Governor is a leadership position. It's an excutive position while a state legislature position is sometimes even a part time positions right? Obama was a part time state senator right?


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

give me a break.  if you want to talk about experience "running something", obama beats the pants off hillary in that department simply by virtue of the horrible way she has run her campaign.  honestly, hillary was never my first pick, but seeing how much mismanagement there is in her campaign, i'm really glad that democrats seem to be going with someone else.  

she's a good legislator.  executive...not so much.


by bluedavid on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

additionally, what kind of executive experience does mccain have??  i admit that i'm not especially knowledgeable about his record, but has he ever "run anything"??  

what i do know about his record is that he's been a senator a long time.  that is generally not a good thing when running for president (too many votes that can be demonized, washington culture, etc.)


by bluedavid on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Obama has done well in the primaries but since when does that translate into running a good general election campaign? Rarely right? The way he has played it has worked to his advantage in the primary but just don't expect it to work in the general the same way.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Why should it not translate?

Try to support your very biased thinking by facts. That will help us take you more seriously.


by marcotom on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:51:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Have you been paying attention to elections for the past 20 years or so? Dukakis ran a great primary campaign too. Read some history.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Dukakis's problem was that he didn't know how to fight back. He went on vacation when Lee Atwater was attacking him. After watching Barack Obama these last few months - and often complaining about his supposed underhanded and mean tactics against Hillary Clinton - do you honestly believe that Barack Obama would keep silent while under attack? Look what he did today! He responded to McCain's Al Qaeda remark the same day. That means the news cycle records it as a tit-for-tat and Obama holds ground. Bill Clinton figured that out in 1992 but John Kerry forgot it in 2004. Obama is no Dukakis.


by elrod on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

My understanding (based on representations by others and one newspaper article I read) is that Illinois senate work is more full-time than most state senate seats. Moreover, he was dealing with serious legislation related to health care, education, criminal procedure and laws, death penalty reform, welfare reform, tax reform, etc. Many of those issues are actually more complex and sophisticated at the state level, so I think he deserves lots of credit for that experience.

It's not like he was the dogcatcher.  


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

What do you think the average voter thinks when someone touts time as a state legislator as experience? They look at their own legislator and say "So Obama thinks he's qualified to be president?". That's the problem. I'd never say that my state legislator is qualified to be President. It's ridiculous on it's face.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:08:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

By the same token, Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt were not nearly as qualified to be President as Barack Obama.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

That's a pretty poor argument for Obama. After all, this is the 21st century isn't it?


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

oh yeah and I forgot, the country was a peaceful place in 1861.

If anything it's a great argument for Obama...Lincoln was elected when the country was in the middle of it's worst crisis ever.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Once again, McCain bests Obama.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:08:54 PM EST

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Once again, Clinton does even worse.


by DPW on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Sorry but no. Obama is repeating what John Kerry said verbatim in 2004.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

What's that, that he was more electable than Dean?

Everybody knows if we couldn't win with Kerry, we sure as hell weren't winning with Dean.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

No his response to McCain is lifted verbatim from John Kerry circa 2004.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

You will have to provide a reference for this gem. I don't buy it.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Why are we left on blogs to be limited by your inexperience with politics?


by bruh21 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

because blogs are filled with people who make stuff up.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On Message (none / 0)

Yes, I know. But then, that's sort of  my point about you.


by bruh21 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

you are correct about the quote.

Obama NEVER voted for the war before he was AGAINST the war.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

No he had a speech against the war before he decided to be for funding it.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

If he had voted no on funding you would be whining that McCain could easily accuse him of not supporting the troops.


by conspiracy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 04:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

Yep but Obama was stupid enough to say that voting against war funding was "playing chicken with the troops." And then proceeded to vote against said funding. So when did he decide it was okay to play chicken with the troops? You see when you are deciding everything based on that kind of stuff it comes back to bite you. You have to look at the whole situation.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

You are talking as if McCain is not going to be stuck in the same kind of trap. He is basically running for a third Bush term and comments like his ''hundred years'' and having no clue on the economy aren't exactly going to make it difficult for him to escape that reality. Again, the race won't be run in a vaccum for either of them - they both have challenges, I just think Obama falls on the right side of the issues and this time, finally, we have someone who can sell them to the American people.


by conspiracy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One HUGE difference even if (none / 0)

Well then Obama better start making the case because according to him "democrats are just as bad as republicans".


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Will you continue to undermine (none / 0)

this line of attack against McCain if Clinton withdraws from the race?


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
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