Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experience

While Obama supporters often obsess over the Iraq War Vote, there is no denying that Senator Clinton has far more Foreign Policy experience than Senator Obama.  If one reads the Foreign Policy Speech she gave yesterday (link), there is an impressive grasp of world affairs.

But giving a speech is not the full extent of her foreign policy experience.  There is testimony from all parts of the world about her involvement in world affairs, playing a role that is far beyond that of a typical First Lady or even a US Senator.

The New York Times seemed to intentionally minimize her role during the White House years in a piece late last year.  They wrote (link):

Her role mostly involved what diplomats call "soft power" -- converting cold war foes into friends, supporting nonprofit work and good-will endeavors, and pressing her agenda on women's rights, human trafficking and the expanded use of microcredits, tiny loans to help individuals in poor countries start small businesses.

Hillary's real influence in African Affairs

This is an impressive list but is made to look more like the typical First Lady role.  This theme of people intentionally playing down her experience is also part of a discussion by Ambassador Joseph Wilson of his interaction with her when he was over African Affairs.  Wilson talks about a key role played by Hillary in African Affairs, and mentions that some of the people who know this work for Obama and yet are suddenly forgetting what she did (link):


During my tenure as Senior Director for African Affairs in the Clinton Administration, I had the responsibility for helping to plan and execute President Clinton's historic trip to that continent. It was a trip that forever changed the way American administrations think about Africa. I spent eleven days with President Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton traveling to six countries and meeting with leaders from many more. She was a full participant in all of our activities and a key adviser--and for good reason. Hillary had previously traveled to Africa, leading a prominent U.S. delegation to several countries. On her return she was instrumental in persuading the president that he should invest that most precious of presidential assets--time--in his own trip. People who are now senior advisers to Senator Obama were involved in both of those trips. So it is mystifying to me that they have allowed themselves to "forget" the key role Hillary played in such a major shift in approach to that part of the world and have participated in a negative campaign tactic on the part of the Obama campaign to demean her significant contributions to foreign policy of which they are well aware.

Hillary's real role in the Northern Ireland Peace Process

And although there has been a move by some to minimize Hillary's role in the Northern Ireland peace process, those who worked with her are having none of that (link):

"I am quite surprised that anyone would suggest that Hillary Clinton did not perform important foreign policy work as first lady. I can state from firsthand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland," said former SDLP leader and Nobel laureate John Hume is a statement responding to critical press reports.

"She visited Northern Ireland, met with very many people and gave very decisive support to the peace process. In private she made countless calls and contacts, speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, urging them to keep moving forward," said Hume.

Hillary's real challenge of the Chinese over rights for women

She took on the Chinese over women's rights in particular.  In the NYT piece that seemed intentionally written to belittle her White House years, even they wrote that she stood up to Chinese officials (link):

...The foreign policy achievement most often credited to Mrs. Clinton came in 1995, with her speech to the United Nations conference on women in Beijing, where she declared that "human rights are women's rights, and women's rights are human rights." She also tangled with Chinese officials, she said, and refused to bow to pressure to soften her remarks.
"She had a good balance of being firm on these issues, even if they clearly covered Chinese sins, but also understanding the need for good relations with China," said Winston Lord, then the assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, who briefed and accompanied her on the trip.

Hillary's real key role in Kosovo

But perhaps the biggest event that Senator Clinton had a role in during the White House years is her involvement in Kosovo.  During this time there was a lot of opposition from Republicans in congress (See discussion here)and from the Pentagon to getting involved in what appeared to be a Civil War.  President Clinton was torn between the Department of Defense and the Department of State.  Madeleine Albright and Richard Holbrooke and General Wes Clark were pushing for involvement because there was an impending ethnic slaughter of Kosovars.  They reached out to Hillary and she then convinced Bill to get involved.  That is mentioned in the NYT piece and here (though with details twisted to make it look like a purely political calculation).  More discussion of these events here.

Here is what the NYT actually said, which is intentionally misleading:

In visits to Bosnia and Kosovo after the American-led bombing of Serbia, she entered war zones before officials believed it was safe for her husband to go and acted as a spokeswoman for American interests rather than as a negotiator. Mrs. Clinton had become a champion of the bombing campaign, and many officials -- including Madeleine K. Albright and Richard Holbrooke in the administration and Tony Blair, then Britain's prime minister -- turned to her at times to stiffen Mr. Clinton's resolve to take on Serbia.

It is worth remembering that Kosovo actually yielded the hearts and flowers that Vice-President Cheney and others promised us we would see in Iraq.  Picture here.  It is also worth noting that although there are some critics of the war in Bosnia and Kosovo, Senator Obama's own Foreign Policy analyst, Samantha Power, recently defended the actions taken there by the Clinton adminstration.  She refused to accept much of what critic Jeremy Scahill had to say. (link)

Hillary's real involvement in Palestinian Statehood Issues

Hillary has also been involved in pushing for Palestinian statehood.  Here is a mention by the ever noxious William Safire of a statement she made supporting Palestinian statehood in May of 1998.  And though Senator Clinton is often painted as a pro-Israel War Hawk, there is at least some evidence that Palestinians think she would be on their side as president. (link, link) (For those who believe Senator Obama is better on Israeli Palestinian issues, they need to read this.)

One thing Hillary has done is to publicly address the textbooks used to teach Palestinian children to hate.  A youtube video of part of that work is here.

The real story about the Iraq War Vote

As in other areas, there are people who were part of discussion of the Iraq War vote who intentionally remain silent about previous events in order to promote Senator Obama over Senator Clinton.  Among these are some bloggers, Josh Marshall for example, who defended the same exact position in 2004 that Senator Clinton holds now. (link)

There is no end of Obama supporters who claim that they knew at the time of the AUMF vote that it was a vote for war and that George Bush could not be trusted.  I am not just speaking only of bloggers but also of some media personalities.  Chelsea Clinton recently referred to such claims as "clairvoyance" and got called all sorts of nasty names in the lefty blogs. (One example here)  One person in particular who could have stepped up on this and set the record straight is Senator Ted Kennedy.  Here is what he said in 2002:

"In this serious time for America and many American families, no one should poison the public square by attacking the patriotism of opponents, or by assailing proponents as more interested in the cause of politics than in the merits of their cause. I reject this, as should we all. Let me say it plainly, I not only concede, but I am convinced that President Bush believes genuinely in the course he urges upon us. ...There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is [a] tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated."

The reason I know Senator Kennedy said this is that Tim Russert whacked him over the head with this quote in 2004 on Meet The Press.  Clearly, telling the truth about that time period is not as important to him as promoting Senator Obama.  A lot of lies are being told about who said what then to build up a candidate who was not even in the Senate at the time.  And a lot of unfair anger is being directed at Senator Clinton that Senator Kennedy and others are shamelessly allowing to happen.

One person who has spoken up in defense of Senator Clinton is also one of the chief critics of the Bush administration and the intelligence manipulation leading up to the war: Ambassador Joseph Wilson.  Here is what he said (link):

A number of us, like then Illinois state senator Obama, opposed the second Gulf War. My own opposition from the beginning has been well documented. I fought the fight in the arena itself, Washington DC, against a ruthless administration and its supporters while the senator's opposition came from a far distance and carried no risk, given that he represented in Springfield, Illinois the district encompassing the University of Chicago. As an obscure but safe provincial political figure, he never was granted access to the distorted intelligence that was used to drive the Congress and the media. When I looked to the left or to the right for support, I never saw the state senator. In fact, I never heard of Barack Obama until he announced his intention to run for the Senate in the 2006 election.

In the run up to the war and thereafter, I was in frequent discussions with senior Democrats in Washington, including Senator Clinton, and I was keenly aware of her demand for the full exercise of international diplomacy and allowing the weapons inspectors to complete their mission. Many of the most prominent early opponents of the war, including former General Wes Clark and former ambassador to the United National Richard Holbrooke support Senator Clinton for President, as do I. We do so because we know that she has the experience and the judgment that comes from having been in the arena for her entire adult life--and from close personal participation with her in the conduct of U.S. foreign policy. And we have trust in her to end the war in Iraq in the most responsible way, consistent with our national security interests.

During this time Senator Clinton has repeatedly said that although she did not read the complete NIE she got enough briefing on it to believe the info was suspect.  So she reached out to the international network of intelligence analysts to find out if Saddam really had weapons or not.  It is only recently that most of us learned, from an FBI agent interviewed on 60 Minutes (link), why the international network she reached out to could not give her a definite answer: Saddam was intentionally giving the impression that he did indeed have WMD because he wanted to scare the Iranis.

Even Senator Obama admitted in his famous speech that Saddam might have WMDs (link):

I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

Since no one knew for sure and Saddam had been willing to assassinate a former US President (link) and had once threatened the security of Israel (link), this seems to be an instance where it is better to be safe than sorry.  With that in mind, Senator Obama's willingness to not push for weapons inspectors to be allowed into Iraq seems ill-advised.

Senator Clinton's Real Actions on Iran

Getting back to the subject of Iran, Senator Clinton has long urged attention to the issue, pointing out the threats to Israel and Lebanon in addition to concerns in Iraq.  She urged for sanctions, not war, and went to great lengths to say that the President Bush should not go to war with Iran unless he had specific congressional approval.

Critics of Senator Clinton say that her support of the Webb amendment, which basically said the same thing, was a mere CYA effort because of her Kyl-Lieberman vote.  But Hillary had been publicly saying the same thing some six months before the Webb amendment came into the picture.

And while we are on the subject of Kyl-Lieberman, Senator Clinton took a lot of criticism from Barack and John and their supporters, even though both had been willing to bomb Iran.  Never mind that Hillary had said over and over that she felt Iran was dangerous because of the threats to Lebanon and Israel, if not Iraq, and that she said she signed Kyl Lieberman as a way of getting diplomatic leverage against Iran.

Of course the supposedly really smart people, especially on the blogs, would have none of this explanation.  Even though Josh Marshall at TPM, as just one example, admitted that the part about authorizing use of the military against Iran was taken out, even including a copy of the changes that were made so readers could see for themselves, even so Josh, who I really respect, and others, complained to high heaven about the vote and refused to accept that labeling the IRG as a terrorist organization might give diplomatic leverage.  

And this kvetching from the blogs and others was all in spite of the fact that all three of the principal players in rescuing the Kosovo Albanians from Milosevic, Madeleine Albright, Richard Holbrooke and Wes Clark, who had to get help from Hillary to drag the Pentagon kicking and screaming to get involved, and who still do not get the recognition they deserve for doing so, supported the vote and pointed out that the final legislation did not include the part that was likely put in the document to use as an excuse to start a war with Iran.

Even Digby got all sidetracked by what Kyl and Lieberman and their neocon friends probably intended to do with the amendment.  She failed to focus on the fact that the final document only labeled the IRG as terrorists and she failed to discuss that such a labeling could conceivably be used as diplomatic leverage against the Iranians.  No sir, all the supposedly very smart people, even some Hillary supporters, failed to contextualize Hillary's vote within the years of her personal discussion of Iran and/or give her the benefit of the doubt.



Display:


Re: Palestinian issues? (2.00 / 1)

"Hillary has also been involved in pushing for Palestinian statehood."

That was in 1998; this is 2007 and ever since she ran for NY Senator, she has been a proIsrael hawk in the worst sense and has never endorsed the two states concept of the Bush Road Map, mainly because she now supports the annexation fervor of the AIPAC/Likud faction in Israel and the US.

"One thing Hillary has done is to publicly address the textbooks used to teach Palestinian children to hate.  A youtube video of part of that work is here."

This advocacy was a pure propaganda play on Hillary's part and based on false information, which she was aware of. Shame on her for allowing herself to be used as an agent of propaganda, right on the Senate floor, in this manner. It was all part of Israel's propaganda effort to cast the Palestinians as terrorists instead of a militarily occupied people for the past 40 years. Get you a link to a diary I did recently on just this topic.

You might also want to see the documentary, Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land about the reality.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:07:29 AM EST

Re: Palestinian issues? (2.00 / 2)

Check out this very well documented essay about Hillary's so-called fight against Palestinian textbooks. It's a hoax, little more.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/4/10243 5/2078#readmore


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:10:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (2.00 / 1)

To the contrary. Would you still prefer to make assertions contrary to the facts at hand?


Want to defend marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how!
by atdleft on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (2.00 / 0)

Mike? Link please.

Have you actually read the long analysis presented in the diary I posted? Think not. There are also several other articles lambasting the  Palestinian textbook propaganda.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Having it both ways (2.00 / 2)

There is currently an anti-Obama whisper campaign alleging he is too sympathetic to the Palestinians, being Muslim and all that.

Anyway, Clinton simply is the STATUS QUO candidate when it comes to Israeli-Palestinian relations.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (1.50 / 2)

Wait. You're not contending that quoting a propaganda video is evidence, are you? I get a kick out of this kind of "intellectual" argumentation.

The diary I quoted above is extremely long, but if you are really interested in something that is factual and evidence based, I suggest you make an attempt at it. I know it is hard.

Pridmore is little more than a propagandist himself if he is actually trying to push a propaganda video based on falsehoods to make a point. Hillary is no less guilty of pushing Israeli propaganda. She would never bring peace to the Middle East if she were elected president. A relief that she is losing badly.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (none / 0)

We had this discussion already in one of your diaries.  Your view on this is completely unobjective.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (none / 0)

You apparently missed this diary as I am certain you would have commented, but don't ask me with what. Lawrence of Cyberia's review is only one of many articles on the topic, which include Hillary's dishonesty and disingenuousness about the issue. As president, she "would have been" even more dangerous on Middle East affairs. Glad she's losing.

Read the entire article below by Cyberia if you dare. My so-called unobjective views are those of the historians (see related links below).

Senator Clinton: About Those Palestinian Textbooks...

by shergald, Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:24:35 AM EST

No Democratic representative in Congress is more beholden to the Israel Lobby than Hillary Clinton, going as far as to head up the propaganda war against the Palestinians, which casts them as "terrorists" rather than a subjugated people living under military occupation for the past 40 years. During that time period, Palestinian lands have been taken by various means of ethnic cleansing, including house and farm/orchard demolitions and even outright killing. Every year since 2000, four to six hundred Palestinians in the territories, more than half of them civilians, have been killed by Israel armed forces using American-made weapons and munitions. Since 2000, almost a thousand Palestinian children have been buried.

Hillary's propaganda war against the Palestinians, through her dishonest congressional actions like sponsorship of the Anti-Palestinian Terrorist Act, has even extended to Palestinian children, who are also terrorists, according to the many propaganda memes she has propagated on behalf of the Israel Lobby.

This scholarly piece by Lawrence of Cyberia (reprinted by permission; links available at the site) trashes the lie, often repeated by Hillary Clinton inside of the Senate, that Palestinian children are being trained as terrorists. In this matter and other, Hillary allows herself to be used as a conduit for right wing Israeli propaganda.

The essay follows:

I'm sure you remember that on 14 June 2001 you co-authored with your fellow Senator from the great state of New York, Charles Schumer, a letter to President Bush, praising him for his Administration's attempts to arrange a ceasefire between Israelis and Palestinians but urging him to make clear that there could be no lasting peace until President Arafat put an end to the propagation of "hateful, anti-Israeli rhetoric" in PA official statements and school textbooks. You gave a very specific example of the kind of hate speech to which Palestinian school children are subjected in their required reading, noting that Our Country Palestine, one of the textbooks introduced in 2000 as part of the new PA 6th grade curriculum contained the declaration, "There is no alternative to destroying Israel". You wondered rhetorically: "When Palestinian children are brought up to hate Israel, how can we ever expect a commitment to a lasting peace?"

From the example you chose, it is apparent that you got your information on the inflammatory nature of PA textbooks from an influential 2000 report - The New Palestinian Authority School Textbooks for Grades One and Six - by the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" (CMIP). CMIP claimed that the PA's recently-introduced new school books for 1st and 6th grades "do not teach the notions of peace and coexistence with Israel" but "plant the seeds of hate" in upcoming Palestinian generations through their "delegitimization of Israel's existence", implicit "seeking of Israel's destruction", "defamation of Israel", and "encouraging militarism and violence". One of CMIP's most vivid examples of hate speech in Palestinian textbooks is the quote ("There is no alternative to destroying Israel") that you cited in your letter to the President, and which has since been widely used as proof of incitement in Palestinian schoolbooks by U.S. policy makers, right-wing commentators, and some of your fellow legislators (such as Congressman Steve Israel - coincidentally, also of the great state of New York - who reproduced the same allegation as fact in a letter to the New York Times, on 10 June 2001). Thanks in part to your collective efforts, the meme that Palestinian schoolbooks are a hotbed of anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic incitement is as widely known as other mischievous falsehoods we popularly hear about the Palestinians, like "they don't love their children like we do" and "we offered them everything, but they refused".

Are you aware that other parties with an interest in the content of PA textbooks - such as the European Union, Israeli journalists like Akiva Eldar, and independent researchers (like Nathan Brown, Professor of Political Science and International Relations at George Washington University) were equally horrified by the accusation that Palestinian children were being taught hatred and incitement against Jews but, unlike yourself, decided to verify the truth of CMIP's claims before repeating them as fact? If you had bothered to do this, you would have found very quickly that there is a problem with the example of anti-Israel hatred that you quoted in your letter to President Bush: namely, that it doesn't exist. That hateful citation - "There is no alternative to destroying Israel" - isn't actually found in any of the PA's new 6th grade textbooks, as CMIP (and subsequently you) alleged. The aforementioned Professor Brown found that Our Country Palestine was not in fact a PA publication at all, but a geographical guide to Palestine first published in Egypt in the early 1940's. The book was subsequently used in Palestinian schools, but the supposed threat to destroy Israel doesn't actually appear in editions of that book used by Palestinian schoolchildren (or, for that matter, in any edition of the book that Prof. Brown managed to track down).

Wouldn't it have been better, Senator Clinton, if you have verified that this accusation was true before you gave it credence by disseminating it further? I appreciate that you don't personally have time to do what Professor Brown did, and check out the actual textbooks for yourself, but if someone on your staff could have just done a quick internet search on CMIP, this should have been enough to set off a few alarm bells, warning you that you might not want to bet your reputation on the reliability of anything that CMIP has to say about the Palestinians.

(snip of the intervening 10 or so pages)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/4/10243 5/2078#readmore

Now you are running for President, and it's time to collect on your investment. This is what the last eight years of attacking PA schoolbooks has really been about. You don't care whether independent research has consistently shown your accusations to be false, because this was never about fighting "incitement" or "anti-semitism" in the first place. I don't think you know or care what is really in PA textbooks. In contrast, I think you know very well that in the race for a New York Senate seat or the Democratic nomination for the Presidency there are big votes and big donations to be won by mouthing pro-Israel rhetoric, and no downside at all to demonizing Arabs and Muslims. I mean, how big is the Palestinian-American vote anyway, and what do their campaign contributions amount to?

Fouad Moughrabi has written of CMIP's role in fomenting the Palestinian textbooks debate: "It is indeed frightening that a small, extreme-right-wing organization, producing shoddy work, can help shape the agenda in a rather complex conflict and eventually have such a far-reaching impact on governments throughout the world". That's certainly true, but what is more frightening is the willingness of certain politicians to lap up the shoddy offerings of a small, extreme-right-wing organization, publicize them repeatedly on the national stage, and champion them long after they have been discredited ... simply because they see political advantage in it.

Like many people, I've been disgusted by the sexist attacks that you have faced in the primaries so far, and will no doubt continue to face the closer you get to the Presidency. It must be very difficult to be the first serious female contender for President, and to see your candidacy belittled by big-mouthed pundits who belittle and demean you just because of who you are. We could all see how much that hurt you when you teared up in New Hampshire. But have you never stopped to consider that you have made a political asset out of demonizing and defaming Palestinian Arabs, even though racist rhetoric hurts its target just as much as sexism hurts you? You have made a decision that it is all right to do to others what is obviously painful when it is done to you, just so long as there is some political advantage to be had.

I look at how much you are hurt by the sexist rhetoric you face, and I want to feel sorry for you. But then I look at how easily and how repeatedly you demonize Palestinians just because you have calculated that it will win you some votes, and all I can think of is what George Orwell wrote in his diary on 27 April 1942: "We are all drowning in filth...I feel that intellectual honesty and balanced judgement have simply disappeared from the face of the earth."

Yours etc,
Lawrence of Cyberia

Related Links

The Myth Of Incitement In Palestinian Text Books; MIFTAH, 30 Jan 2004.

Unwarranted Controversy: American Politicians, Israeli Critics, and Palestinian Textbooks, by Reema Hijazi; CNI, 16 Dec 2005.

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs by Maureen Meehan; WRMEA, Sept 1999.

What Did You Study In School Today, Palestinian Child? by Akiva Eldar; Ha'aretz, 2 Jan 2001.

Battle of the Books in Palestine, by Fouad Moughrabi; The Nation, 1 Oct 2001.

Democracy, History, and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum by Prof. Nathan Brown, George Washington University; Nov 2001.

Palestine textbooks under fire by Khalid Amayreh; al-Jazeera, 10 May 2004.

Learning all the wrong facts by Akiva Eldar; Ha'aretz, 9 Dec 2004.

Basic Ignorance by Akiva Eldar; Ha'aretz, 9 Dec 2004.

Reading, writing - and propaganda by Akiva Eldar; Ha'aretz, 28 Oct 2005.

Israel's Arab Schoolchildren Get First Booklet Explaining Palestinian History; Ilam Media Center, 19 Dec 2005.

PM Olmert backs Tamir proposal to add Green Line to textbooks, by Akiva Eldar; Ha'aretz, 5 Dec 2006.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (2.00 / 1)

All you ever have to say about Hillary is that she is dishonest and you quote someone who says that.  And almost always it is just people sharing an opinion and hardly ever is that opinion arrived at objectively.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm, Mike just provided evidence... (none / 0)

This reply is so ridiculous that it's not worth a reply. Why don't you learn how to read?

Bye.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One more character flaw (2.00 / 1)

You mean the same way Obama became an Israeli hawk?  Because if she is one then so is he.  That is an accusation based only on her defense of Israel and does not include other related actions, like the Palestinian guy who fundraises for her or the Palestinians who still view her as their best shot at statehood.  Your view is extremely biased and ignores lots of facts while amplifying other facts all out of perspective.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One of the reasons (1.80 / 5)


why I support Sen. Clinton is her foreign policy experience. I think we have seen over the last 7 years what lack of experience in a President has cost this country. GWB was completely reliant on advisors. Not to say that Obama isn't leaps and bounds more intelligent than GWB, but I'm not comfortable with how Obama will need to rely heavily on others in this area.

Also, we are in two wars, Iran and N. Korea lust for nukes, global terrorism, a nationalistic Russia is on the rise, a united Russia-China is highly probable, and there is a global race for resources. The President has to make tough national security decisions. I just don't see Obama doing what is in the best interest of the United States. Obama saying that he will meet leaders of countries that are state sponsors of terrorism, openly and without any preconditions, is flat out wrong. I think his stance weakens, not strengthens, the US's role in the world. Ultimately, it makes us more of a target of terrorist attacks here at home.


by grlpatriot on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:22:50 AM EST

Me, too... (2.00 / 3)

After 8 years of Bush II, it would be awfully nice to have a President who knows what she's doing on the world stage. I trust Hillary to not just be an improvement over Bush, but to make the right decisions and the smart choices to keep this nation safe AND improve people's lives around the world.

We know what Hillary's done in Africa. We know what she's done in Kosovo. We know what she's done in Northern Ireland. We know she can get the job done.

Once again, Hillary doesn't just say the right things... She DOES them as well. :-)


Want to defend marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how!
by atdleft on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:34:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Talking on the world stage (2.00 / 1)

Link:

Hillary loves to talk about how President Bush has ruined our reputation in the world and is far from diplomatic. She talks about it so much, she must have come to like W's alleged attitude, as she claimed a month ago (how did I miss this?) that Vladamir Putin "doesn't have a soul." It's great to see that our diplomatic relations will not succumb to the cowboy flippancy any longer.

Oh, and for the record, this was Putin's response:

At a minimum, a head of state should have a head.

Vladimir may not have a soul but he sure has wit.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking on the world stage (none / 0)

Frankly, I agree with her about Putin.  I don't find her statement troubling in the least.  And neither do a lot of other people.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To ratchet up confrontation with (none / 0)

Putin over such a trivial matter is the sign of a rank amateur out of her league.

Yes, Valdimir Putin is ex-KGB and very, very dangerous which is why trash talking was a foolish thing to do.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To ratchet up confrontation with (none / 0)

Ratchet up confrontation?  What the hell are you smoking?


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Serbia - Kosovo offers a flashpoint (none / 0)

between Russia and the United States.

Trading personal insults with the Russian leader very much undermines our national interest.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Serbia - Kosovo offers a flashpoint (none / 0)

A flashpoint?  What in the world is that supposed to mean?  She stands up to Putin and now she is starting confrontation?  This is beyond silly.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too... (none / 0)

Yes - she's a doer. And not a talker. That's the key difference. So let's start the conversation.


by pastor john on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too... (none / 0)

The conversation is actually nearing its end. It's been going on for quite some time.


by illlaw1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:41:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too... (none / 0)

Well let's restart it. Hillary is about solutions. If she doesn't win the pledged delegate count, she will have a solution for that. She's in it to win.


by pastor john on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too... (none / 0)

Too late to restart it. Too late to win. She didn't have a Plan B for her campaign. I've seen that sort of thing somewhere else...


by illlaw1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too... (2.00 / 1)

The voters should have a chance to speak first.  Let's not send out the obituary notices just yet.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A response to this diary (none / 0)

posted at Daily Kos:

The Real Story about the Iraq War vote.
by Eternal Hope, Tue Feb 26, 2008

Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A response to this diary (2.00 / 1)

And I should listen to that because... ?  It is irrational and sees everything through a very narrow anti-Hillary lens.  All that tells me is that the diarist doesn't like Hillary and will go out of his/her way to blame her for things that are not her fault.  That's all.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One could level an ad-hominem retort at your (1.00 / 1)

diary like this:

And one should listen to you or read your diary because... ?  Your diary is irrational and it sees everything through a very narrow pro-Hillary/Hillary-Apologist lens.  All that tells me is that you're really fond of Hillary and would/do go out of your way to explain away things that really are her fault.  That's all.

How about a real response to Eternal Hope instead of loose ad-hominem retorts, eh, Mike?


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One could level an ad-hominem retort at your (2.00 / 1)

What is there to respond to?  That IAEA mention is completely off base.  No one knew for sure if he had WMD at the time because he was going around telling people he did to keep the Iranian wolf away from the door.  That whole diary is based on the premise that Hillary supporters are lying skunks and Obama supporters are angelic truthtellers.  I have told the truth and they are namecalling and twisting the facts.  The Weapons inspectors felt that the threat of force was what got them back into Iraq and enough time had passed that no one was sure what the status of Saddam's weapons was.

I resent the hell out of being called a liar, especially when my accuser is the one playing fast and loose with the facts.  The blind hatred and insistence that everything associated with Hillary Clinton is somehow an evil lie is absolutely mindnumbing to me.  I want as little to do with it as possible.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:12:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One could level an ad-hominem retort at your (none / 0)

"That IAEA mention is completely off base.  No one knew for sure if he had WMD at the time because he was going around telling people he did to keep the Iranian wolf away from the door."

When?  Show me a link from March 2003 of Saddam going around bragging about his WMDs.

He couldn't have because in March 2003, the UN inspectors were INSIDE Iraq doing inspections and reporting that no WMD could be found. On nukes, even stronger claims. They were asking for a few months to finish the job.


March 7, 2003

ElBaradei:

After three months of intrusive inspections, we have to date found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapon program in Iraq.

Blix:
How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months.


Given this no sane person should have invaded Iraq, and no responsible person would've kept quiet or cheer-led when Bush was about to take the plunge.

"The Weapons inspectors felt that the threat of force was what got them back into Iraq and enough time had passed that no one was sure what the status of Saddam's weapons was."

This could have been done with a resolution that allowed some amassing of US troops around Iraq. It didn't need a full blank check war authorization as was given.

Had Bush taken the proper route, he would've gone through the UN (properly) and built a multilateral force to handle the situation. Even there, priorities are important. Afghanistan, Taliban and Al Queda needed much greater attention than Iraq (because we didn't have intelligence anything like what justified our Afghan action).

By 2002, Saddam wasn't any kind of thereat, much less an imminent threat, to the US by any stretch of imagination.

Let us note that by March 2003, it was clear enough that Saddam didn't have nuclear weapons/programs and that his rocket couldn't go beyond 200Km (closest point distance b/w Iraq and Israel should be at least 500Km or so), and he was dismantling his 183Km missiles at that time.

That shows that by March 2003, it was quite clear that Saddam was NOT a threat to Israel either.

There was no justification whatsoever to attack Iraq after March 7, 2003, reports from Blix and ElBaradei. Yet, Hillary Clinton was cheerleading Bush:


March 17, 2003

Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the President's Remarks to the Nation

   When the President of the United States addresses the nation about possible military action, it is a solemn occasion for every American. Tonight, the President gave Saddam Hussein one last chance to avoid war, and the world hopes that Saddam Hussein will finally hear this ultimatum, understand the severity of those words, and act accordingly. While we wish there were more international support for the effort to disarm Saddam Hussein, at this critical juncture it is important for all of us to come together in support of our troops and pray that, if war does occur, this mission is accomplished swiftly and decisively with minimum loss of life and civilian casualties. I have had the honor of meeting and speaking with many of our brave men and women in uniform. They are the best trained, equipped, and motivated military in the entire world, we support them fully and we are grateful for their courageous service in these difficult times.

Your tortured justifications knowing all the facts that we did and do is, indeed, putting lipstick on a pig (as someone jibed in your DK diary).


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And what happens when the press is no longer (2.00 / 1)

proping up Obama? I think Obama has the ability to do worse than McGovern in '72. At a minimum he will give Dukakis a run for his money.

He will not win one red state and will perform so poorly in the south that McCain won't have to spend a penny or a day there. Florida is a joke, Obama and Nader will be running neck and neck.

This will go down in history as the biggest bone-headed (to use the term Obama used when describing the judgement he has) choice the Democrats have ever made.


by mmorang on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed . . . (none / 0)

But unless Clinton does VERY WELL on March 4th the voters will have spoken.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are mathematically eliminated when you are (2.00 / 1)

mathematically eliminated. Until someone gets the required number of delegates it aint over.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horsera ceblog/2008/02/is_it_over_1.html

Did you know that "pledged" delegates can and do change their minds as do super-delegates? That is how the rules were written. Clinton beat Obama pretty easily in Nevada but he "initially" received more delegates. All the numbers being reported are preliminary numbers.

Obama is the odds on favorite but...If Hillary wins Texas and Ohio she is still in the race. Both candidates will need super-delegates. In order to have a legitimate case, Hillary will have to end up with more popular votes than Obama. To do this she needs to average about 51-53% of the popular vote for the remaining of the cantests.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horsera ceblog/2008/02/is_it_over_1.html


by mmorang on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:16:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(a) Judgment trumps experience (2.00 / 2)

(b) McCain has MORE experience that Clinton, therefore to tout experience as the relevant metric shows a further lack of judgment.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:45:44 AM EST

Re: (a) Judgment trumps experience (2.00 / 2)

Not at the same level at all.  He has also zero foreign policy experience.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What your diary proves is that (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton would make a SUPERB under-secretary of State. Hard worker and detail wonk and all that. I agree

As for BIG PICTURE judgment?

NOTHING in your diary addresses her grasp of the big picture.

= = =

Do you oppose our recent Predator strike on that al Qaeda leader in Pakistan?

Related, Obama's position that we should NOT tell the Pakistanis if we intend to take out an al Qaeda target is not only not naive but it also takes into account the experience we learned when in 1998 Clinton 42 told Pakistan our Tomahawks were on the way and Pakistani intelligence warned bin Laden and he escaped unharmed.

Hillary FAILURE to learn from that experience is very telling, IMHO.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What your diary proves is that (2.00 / 1)

You are a blind partisan.  If Hillary was a gold cadillac you would complain about the color.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mike, your desperation is showing (none / 0)


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike, your desperation is showing (none / 0)

That is annoyance not desperation.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike, your desperation is showing (2.00 / 1)

Do you have any idea how badly your candidate will be pummeled by the GOP and press if he's the nominee. You will need all the help you can get and then some. So, why piss off potential allies? Are you an example of how Obama will reach out to the other side? I hope not.

All the money in the world will not help Obama. Obama was a state senator 3 years ago. There is no way he will be the leader of the free world, that is a fairy-tale.

There are already stories coming out that the military does not feel comfortable with him. Choosing Obama will go down as one of the biggest political mistakes the Dem's have ever made.

Luckily, the race is not over. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horsera ceblog/2008/02/is_it_over_1.html


by mmorang on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Concerning your link, I agree (none / 0)

with this;

If she loses either Texas or Ohio next week - the race will end.

If she wins Ohio AND Texas by clear margins then I also agree the race is not over.

Except that with Texas we need to decide whether winning the popular vote (say 53 - 47) but losing delegates by any significant margin counts as a win.   A 200+ lead in pledged delegates will be a high hill for super-delegates to climb.

It's not over today. It probably will be over next week, but I agree it is NOT a sure thing.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill, George AND Hillary - ALL wrong on Iraq (none / 0)

From CNN in December 1998:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- From the Oval Office, President Clinton told the nation Wednesday evening why he ordered new military strikes against Iraq.

The president said Iraq's refusal to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors presented a threat to the entire world.

"Saddam (Hussein) must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:53:31 AM EST

Re: Bill, George AND Hillary - ALL wrong on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

This is just wrong.  Saddam had sent missiles into Israel and had a key role in an assassination attempt on the former President Bush.  Your viewpoint requires a very selective memory.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:18:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill, George AND Hillary - ALL wrong on Iraq (none / 0)

Wrong about the WMD. That much has been established.

Wrong to authorize an invasion WITHOUT UN approval and that is an error in judgment Hillary Clinton shares with George W. Bush.

Is the world better off without Saddam? Yes, of course. However 2002 & 2003 was the wrong time to finish that unfinished piece of business at least WITHOUT a new United Nations resolution.

Hillary Clinton's Iraqi AUMF vote has helped undermine the United Nations and we will be paying for that mistake for a very long time.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill, George AND Hillary - ALL wrong on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

No one knew whether Saddam had WMD or not because he was telling people he did.  Can you not read?  I get tired of people like you saying silly things over and over that are actually addressed in the diary if you would just bother to read the damn thing.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 1)

You are exactly right. She's not just about speeches. She's about solutions. And she's a doer.


by pastor john on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13:28 AM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

Well she did vote for war in Iraq.


by illlaw1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (1.50 / 2)

She voted to get inspectors in.  Period, end of story.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

I would also like to add - She is the senator from New York.  New York was still emotionally charged (9/11) and she did reflect the wishes of her contingency.

(I feel like it is the 600lb gorilla in the room.)


by jelyfish on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

That's not the end of the story.  If her vote had actually been about getting inspectors in and not about initiating the war, where was her outrage when Bush used the Clinton-supported Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq to use military force in Iraq.  Hillary cannot claim to have been duped on this issue especially when she bolstered Bush case for war even as inspectors were asking for more time.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 1)

To Pastor John, stop with this lame Dkos link via Taylor Marsh . This is nothing but a 2 bit smear job.


by Safe at Home on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

It's my signature.

I want everyone on Google to know about Taylor Marsh.


by pastor john on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's real foreign policy experience (1.00 / 1)

Plus, she's a doer.


by pastor john on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:41 AM EST

Yup, she supported "doing" Iraq (none / 0)

something that should not have been done.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yup, she supported "doing" Iraq (2.00 / 1)

Enough already.  Don't be obnoxious.  And actually try reading the part where your silly discussion about who has good judgment is blown completely out of the water.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:45:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

His lack of experience (none / 0)

Why I think Obama + Biden is a great ticket.


- Sam Hussein Longhorn
by LonghornSam on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:34 AM EST

I'm sure the Rwandans are impressed. (1.00 / 0)


by illlaw1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:33:15 AM EST

Re: I'm sure the Rwandans are impressed. (2.00 / 1)

Hillary actually pushed Bill to do something about Rwanda too. (link)  Your sneery answers are not only unwelcome but are also wrong.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And even Bill has admitted - (none / 0)

- that his failure to act during the Rwandan genocide was his worst failure as president.  I agree with him.  It was.  If HRC had been president, based on all of the accounts showing that she urged Bill to act, I believe that she would have.

That's one of the reasons I support her.  I know that some of Obama's supporters are opposed to any sort of "pre-emptive war."  I also opposed the Iraq war; however, I think that there are clear times and reasons to involve our military in the affairs of foreign countries.  Stopping genocide is an important one.  While President Clinton failed to act in Rwanda, he DID act in the former Yugoslavia - to great success today - and against opposition from both the right and the left.  

Will Senator Obama has the political will and steely resolve necessary to act in such a situation?  I hope so; but I know that Senator Clinton will.  


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton offers warmed over conventional (none / 0)

wisdom. Experience with the jaded Beltway ways.

Obama offers real leadership on Cuba and on Israel / Palestine, for example:

Well here's my starting orientation is A - Israel's security is sacrosanct, is non negotiable. That's point number one. Point number two is that the status quo I believe is unsustainable over time. So we're going to have to make a shift from the current deadlock that we're in. Number three that Israel has to remain a Jewish state and what I believe that means is that any negotiated peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is going to have to involve the Palestinians relinquishing the right of return as it has been understood in the past. And that doesn't mean that there may not be conversations about compensation issues. It also means the Israelis will have to figure out how do we work with a legitimate Palestinian government to create a Palestinian state that is sustainable. It's going to have to be contiguous, its going to have to work its going to have to function in some way. That's in Israel's interest by the way. If you have a balkanized unsustainable state, it will break down and we will be back in the same boat. So those are the starting points of my orientation.

Where is he wrong in this passage?

When has Hillary ever been so BOLD in saying that continuing the same course is unsustainable?


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:37:07 AM EST

Re: Clinton offers warmed over conventional (none / 0)

<<Where is he wrong in this passage?>>

Why does he not mention compensation for Jews who were driven out of their homes throughout the Middle East?  Why does Obama expect Israel (one five hundreth of the land of the general area) supply his contigous requirement?


by haypops on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Compensation paid by whom? (none / 0)

Destitute Palestinians?

It simply is not in Israel's interest to live next to a failed state. Do we look forward or backward?

This Daily Kos Diary is a good introduction to the Israeli questions:

President Obama, American Jews and Israel:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/26/ 84610/0143/493/464294


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Another supporter (none / 0)

Larry Johnson over at noquarter.com supports your hypothesis regarding Hillary's foreign policy experience. Larry would know! his bio is at:
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/about-the-a uthors/
One last supporter of Hillary's expertise in this area is the junior Senator from Illinois.  At the last debate he altered his original views on head of state negotiations to match those of Hillary and the rest geopolitical world.  
by haypops on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM EST

Re: Another supporter (none / 0)

Larry Johnson?  The guy who called Obama a "Black Jesus" on mydd itself?

Spare me.


by Skaje on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 06:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (1.00 / 1)

Why does a top Clinton surrogate say that the picture on Drudge yesterday shows Obama in the clothing of "his native country"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnLSkWulP VE

Isn't she stating - not just implying - that Obama is not really an American?


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

What.Ev.Er.  His father is from there.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

This is the kind of stuff that makes the Clinton campaign look really bad.

You may not want to hear this, but I know lots of people who switched from Clinton to Obama because of these kinds of messages.  

And while I acknowledge that there are certainly folks who don't like what has been said by the Obama campaign, the clear movement toward Obama suggests that many more people have been bothered by the Clinton campaign.


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 1)

Rolling my eyes.  One tiny little statement that is less than a molehill being made yet again into the mountain of evil that is Hillary.  You people make me sick.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Survey Says: XXX (2.00 / 1)

Okay: it's not Sudanese clothing.  It's Somali clothing; and the picture was taken in Kenya during Obama's visit there.  Somalia and Kenya border each other, and African state boundaries are not "cultural bounderies."  Again, while I do not believe that the Clinton campaign spread the photo, I also think the more important point (both now and during the general, if Obama is the nominee), is that that's a picture of a politician accepting a gift on a trip abroad, as custom and politeness dictate.  He's wearing the garb over a golf shirt and khakis, for goodness sake.  He looks fine.  

Here's a relatively balanced account of the situation, for fairness' sake:  link.


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 1)

That's not Tubbs-Jones best moment, but I don't believe at all that that suggests that the Clinton campaign is behind the photo.  The vast majority of the evidence (see particularly this diary) suggests that Republicans were behind it, and blamed it on Clinton to create division.  Guess what, they succeeded.  

And while that was not Tubbs-Jones' best moment, I am pretty confident that she sees nothing wrong with the photo.  III see nothing wrong with the photo.  I don't think that she was trying to claim that Obama is not American.  She is trying to say that there is nothing scary or offensive about the photo.  And she's right.  


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

"I don't think that she was trying to claim that Obama is not American."

So your analysis is that this is an example of rank incompetence?


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

I love how you ignored most of my post, extrapolated what you wanted to, and tried to put words in my mouth.  I think that she misspoke.  It happens.  


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

Now that the YouTube is all over the blogosphere, she or another Clinton spokesperson should step up quickly and say she misspoke.  If she does not, she either meant to say it or it's an example of rank incompetence.

You have to admit the Clinton campaign kept this story alive all day yesterday by issuing a nondenial in the AM. The afternoon statement was much better, but by then they had lost control of the story.


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 1)

The blogosphere also kept the story alive.  When did we start believing Drudge?  When did we start relying on him as a genuine source of news?  


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe Prez Obama will make her Secretary of State (none / 0)

Might not be a bad use of her talents.
by PhilFR on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:29:23 PM EST

Re: Maybe Prez Obama (2.00 / 1)

You know, I do think that she would make an impressive Secretary of State if it came to that, though there are certainly better qualified Democrats for the position - there's a certain celebrity pull that might serve her well in that position, and she is - well, tough and tough-minded.  I also think that it would be smart for the next Democratic president (Clinton or Obama) to put the last Democratic president back to work as a kind of super-goodwill ambassador, reintroducing the USA to the rest of the world.  Bill Clinton is quite popular outside the US.

I'd still prefer her as president, though, and it's not over yet.


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (2.00 / 2)

I'm reading Samantha Power's book on genocide right now.  It's a great book, although the subject matter makes it a difficult read.

The classless fools who want to score political points off Bill Clinton's inadequate response to Rwanda ought to learn a little history before they go around assuming that Barack Obama would have the wherewithal to right all the wrongs of the world.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:01:29 PM EST

Hillary's Mistake (none / 0)

She does have an impressive resume as First Lady. Her mistake was that she got all cought up with her inflated national  poll lead of 25 points into the Iowa caucuses and didn't think that anyone could catch her until November. She has positioned herself as a general election candidate for the last four years and thought that when Bayh and Warner didn't enter that she would be able to preserve her centrist position throughout the primaries. She was wrong.

The democratic base hasn't forgiven her for the war vote. Maybe if she would have taken an Edwards line of calling it a mistake she would have earned some forgiveness; however in her opinion she couldn't do that and preserve her November electability.

She probably could have cut some ads with some of her achievements as First lady to introduce people to some of her tangible achievements.

Nonetheless, the botom line is that all elections are about the messenger not the message or the campaign or any other facts. The bottom line is that if "experience" really counted then Biden or Dodd or Richardson would have been fighting it out now and left Obama and Clinton in the dust. In the end, it's about likability and trust, and the ability to sell him/herself.

Hillary just could never do that. There's a reason that since January of 2007, the percentage of the country that answered 'No' to the question of "Is there any circumstance in which you could see yourself voting for Hillary Clinton ?" has never dropped below 45%. Obama's is 32% and McCain is 29% today. The reason is that half the country doesn't like or trust her.


by chatters71 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:17:34 PM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy (none / 0)

There are serious distinctions between HRC and WJC. One can point to Rwanda as an example of a 'failure,' but why attribute that to HRC?  Check out the link to this letter, dated March 2006:  http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/news/stat ements/record.cfm?id=252800.

It is a letter from HRC to Bush, urging action in the Sudan.  It is dated almost two years ago!  

Based on this letter, and for many other reasons, I feel as if HRC has many progressive interests and ideas.  Arguably as many progressive, liberal politics as Obama.  However, she is doing a poor job projecting that image - perhaps because she thought it was not necessary.  Now she is stuck.  If she were to laud her interests in environmental issues, the Sudan, etc., it would just look like she was copying Obama, even though she was active in these issues years ago.  I feel sorry for her in this regard.  Unfortunately, image is everything and she underestimated the power of projecting yourself as the liberal (not conservative) democrat who can really effectuate change.

Obama, on the other hand, I don't believe him as far as I can throw him.  He still starts each speech denying that he gets lobbyist funding.  He used to claim on his website that he gets no corporate funding at all!  He still accuses HRC of smears that he himself instigates.  And as for foreign policy - he so aggressively wants to send troops to Pakistan, insulting the Pakistani President along the way.  I can't possibly vote for such stupidity!


by findthesource on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:21:42 PM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy (none / 0)

And your proof that he DOES get lobbyist funding is....?


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy (none / 0)

What bothers me is that good attempts are now labeled as failures by those who were not there or who never tried.

The letter to Bush on the Sudan - never knew about this either. Wish she'd had better publicity going out of her press office the last four years and during her campaign.


by catfish1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

Point of information only..
http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Oba ma_s_Army_equipment_story_may_be_0226200 8.html
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

Is so vast and deep, I was for her but had know idea. Thanks for the excellent diary. She should hire you to work in her press office.


by catfish1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:28:08 PM EST

Re: Senator Clinton's real foreign policy experien (none / 0)

had no idea, not "know" idea.


by catfish1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:46:12 PM EST
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