Second Debate Thread

Here's another thread for you to discuss the debate.

Update [2008-2-26 22:19:47 by Jonathan Singer]: I've got to say, even though it was defused a bit towards the end of this second segment, that Hillary Clinton would stoop to making insinuations about Barack Obama being anti-Semitic or not sufficiently denouncing anti-Semites is really beyond the pale to me, just totally unacceptable. There can be attacks in this primary, and the candidates can disagree on issues. But I am just shocked that Clinton would stoop so low to make such insinuations. I am somewhat appalled, both as a Democrat and a Jewish American.

Update [2008-2-26 22:21:48 by Todd Beeton]:Did Obama just call himself a "supposed liberal?"

Update [2008-2-26 22:32:57 by Todd Beeton]:Obama had a great answer on what vote he would take back re Terry Schiavo. "Sometimes inaction can be as costly as action."

Update [2008-2-26 22:32:57 by Todd Beeton]:On "what question does Hillary Clinton need to answer...?" Obama isn't taking the bait, instead taking the high road. He's wisely instead talking about why he should be the nominee. Will Clinton use her answer to have another "moment" or to draw some blood?

Update [2008-2-26 22:43:37 by Todd Beeton]:Senator Obama often looked uncomfortable to me up there when not answering. Didn't really project the confidence I'm used to him projecting at the debates lately. Of course while Clinton may have looked more confident and more presidential, several of her lines didn't really work, and Obama's taking the high road may have come off better ultimately. But she certainly appeared to be the very image of the fighter she says she is, not sure it helped her though.



Display:


Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

tim russert is an idiot


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:09:10 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

He keeps hurling these charges against Clinton, and then cutting her off from responding to Obama's charges. Why is she being double teamed?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Finally, a statement that we can all agree on.  Could his head possibly get any bigger?


by rfahey22 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The post debate spin.. (none / 0)

Well, while Saddam the person was a douche, Saddam in power kept Iran in check and the region stabilized.  His removal is showing the destabilization of region.  While him being gone isn't bad, the way in which it was done has caused problems that will probably take years, maybe decades to solve.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

As an Obama supporter, I couldn't agree more.


by tysonpublic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Tim Russert --

Worst. Moderator. Ever.


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:09:39 PM EST

"Med ven dev... whatever," Clinton (none / 0)

Republican Health Care Plan: Be Rich or Die


by dearreader on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So what do you want Tim? (2.00 / 2)

Should Obama go on a Farakhan hunt?

Will we take a break from the debate while Obama hunts down and beats the crap out of Farakhan?


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:09:59 PM EST

Re: So what do you want Tim? (none / 0)

Oh man, you have me laughing out loud.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i volunteer (none / 0)

for this guerrilla force.

just cause im a dem, don't mean i aint strapped with heat bitches.


HRC for Majority Leader
by omar little on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You got killed (none / 0)

last Sunday, remember?  We're going to miss you.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it is Bad for Obama to be associated with Farakhan (1.00 / 1)

and Obama lost the opportunity, given to him, to reject any association with Farakhan. And reason is very simple: Obama wants badly to keep hold on race-motivated black votes. Can you handle the truth?


by WeNeed3rdParty on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:50:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Why is Farrakhan an issue at all? This Russert question is as bad as the one about what would happen if Cobra Commander took over Iraq.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:15 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

it gives Obama air time, and allows him to answer really well


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

That was just an MSNBC/Obama love in. It gave Obama a chance to make clear that he doesn't endorse Farrakhan in case anyone was worried.


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well, if these debates are about answering questions about their candidacy isn't that a relevant question?


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They say this debate 'was not a game changer' (none / 0)

Such is the nature of debates. Moderators ask questions and candidates answer the questions they WANT to answer. Both Candidates (all candidates really) do this.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Which Cobra Commander though?  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is Brian Williams (none / 0)

Just there for decoration?


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:48 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Has anyone else been put in the penalty box for posting too many comments?


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:54 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Happens to me all the time in debate and election night threads.  Don't sweat it, it only lasts a few minutes.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I think that Obama looked a little taken aback to have his pro-NAFTA rhetoric thrown at HIM.

On balance, they've both been good. This is a good issues oriented debate.


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:54 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Hillary just blew the biggest chance she had to show transparency and open disclosure by waffling on the issue of releasing tax returns.  She wants to leave the scrutiny of her financial dealings to the GOP once she locks the nom?  She alludes to "or maybe before the primary next week" but says she is too busy to get it together sooner.

Do we really want a President who is too preoccupied to be accountable toward the electorate that she seeks to serve?


Vote Who Sane '08!
by nafamabo on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:12:56 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Whatever- like she said, she's a little busy at the moment. She has until April like you and I.

And Russert's question was asinine- release your tax return so that we can see who is "bankrolling your campaign...." Jackass- what is he trying to say?

I thought her answer was fairly good there.


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Uh - I don't think the question was about this year's tax return - it's about releasing previous ones.


by tysonpublic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Hasn't she essentially already disclosed previous ones, with her Senate filings?  

I'm not sure - but I think that that is the case.  


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Um.  nope.


by Dave on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Of course she would have to go to that storage cabinet in her attic to get out the return, and she's just too busy to do so -- give me a break!  Too busy?  Like she doesn't have People to do it for her?


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will go to jail (2.00 / 1)

for whichever candidate decides to assault Tim Russert right now.

HIllary?  Barack?

Take your swing.  I'll do the time for you.


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13:23 PM EST

Re: I will go to jail (none / 0)

I'll support you. You can still do the jail time, however.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I will go to jail (none / 0)

Me, too! I will vote for any candidate who throws the first punch to Tim Russert.


by praxis1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Hillary's voice reminds me that she's still there. I feel like Obama and Russert have been talking for the last half hour.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13:39 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

This sucks, for some reason Comcast does not carry MSNBC and evidently msnbc.com has never heard of Content Delivery Networks


by MChav06 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13:39 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well its not like they're in anyway linked to a computer savvy company.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shut up Tim (2.00 / 1)

No.  

She's not saying that.

No one thought she was saying that.

Why in God's name do you have a job?


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:11 PM EST

Re: Shut up Tim (none / 0)

Hmmm... well.. maybe Obama feared she might be.


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice Dig at Obama re: Farrakhan's endorsement (none / 0)

Hillary: Difference between denouncing and rejecting.

Barack: I'll smile and hope that the audience helps.


Obama-Clinton: The New Glory of America
by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:25 PM EST

Re: Nice Dig at Obama re: Farrakhan's endorsement (2.00 / 1)

That was too nitpicky by Hillary.  It gave Obama a softball to take a swing at.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'll reject, renounce, and beat him with a stick!


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

And then let's bludgeon him with a large club!

I have to say that the denounce vs. reject thing was pretty silly.


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

reject and renounce -- Clinton looks petty on that exchange, I think


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:13 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

not to the jewish community


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yeah, thank god they both locked up that swing voting block.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

It isnt for the General, its for the Primary


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

If you think this impresses any Jews except a small, Likudnik segment, you really don't know much about the Jewish community.


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yeah I suppose, plus Obama is trying to be dog whistly respectful ("Reverend Farrakhan") -- not that I think he's a farrakhan fan by any stretch of the imagination


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Jewish (2.00 / 1)

And I thought his response was perfectly appropriate. I despise Louis Farrakhan for all the obvious reasons. What I loved was Obama's mention of the need to restore the strong relationship between Jews and blacks.


by elrod on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Jewish Too (2.00 / 2)

And I agree 100% with your reply.

Obama's denunciation/rejection of Farrakhan was totally sufficient the first time. Clinton's pander struck me as pretty gratuitous - and Obama got the best of that in the end anyway.

But Obama's acknowledgment of the Jewish involvement in the civil rights struggles was HUGE. That was really powerful and I am quite certain it impressed a lot of Jews. Nobody seems to realize it, but that acknowledgment was THE moment of that exchange.
 


by Callimaco on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Nah, Obama does like to tippy-toe around stuff when it's a lot easier to say "I don't want to have anything to do with Farrakhan and I don't want his endorsement."  


by newhorizon on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Why is Clinton making an issue between denouncing and rejecting? She's picking the wrong fights!


by mecarr on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:16 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

nope -- Jewish community remembers her for that SPECIFIC issue among others, and it was very important, especially here in NY.

Ordinary voter will be confused, Jewish population will remember


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Denouncing the independence party matters in NY?  Are you kidding?  They are as marginal as it gets.


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Good point and the massive Jewish community of Texas and Ohio will be glad that she pandered to them! Oh wait there isn't a massive Jewish Community in Texas and Ohio.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

And if there was one, I would give it to them that they know exactly what pandering is and that they don't fall for it.


by marcotom on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

There's a clear distinction to the community between denouncing someone's words, and rejecting someone's support.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

so words do matter? but just for this segment of the broadcast though, right?

if I would have known earlier that words only matter in trivial situations, I would have voted for Hillary.


!
by alex100 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Rejecting the support of a bigot matters. That's an action, isn't it?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

he rejected it. and denounced it. and he made hillary look awful in the process.


!
by alex100 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:13:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well, if he says he rejected it, that's new to me. He changed the subject during the debate.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

denounce - to give formal notice of the termination or denial of (a treaty, pact, agreement, or the like).

reject - to refuse to have, take, recognize, etc.

Did they just seriously argue over that


by MChav06 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:16:57 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yes I did look it up, guilty as charged :-) - if I am charged


by MChav06 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

You are charged, rejected and denounced. Well done ;)


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

yes -- see my comments right above yours

It is especially interesting because Obama just met with Jewish leaders


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

The kind of questions that these people ask go a long way to explaining the shoddy state of media coverage of politics in general.

Assuming Obama get the nomination, you can already see a string of questions on Farrakhan and related crap.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:30 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama should have hammered home the point that you dont change people's minds by ignoring them, or not talking to them.  To change minds you must engage them.  And this can be done with out condoning the ideas of the other party.
this seems to be an over arching theme in his campaign.

by IndyJ on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:59 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

That was a good thanks to the Jewish freedom riders speech by the Big O

He solidified his nomination with that remark


by gil on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:19:23 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yes, when he said he wouldn't be here without the Jewish community, I said "thank you."


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

No mention or recognition of the plight of Palestinian people through  the brutal occupation by Israel nor their Wall...

nothing to see here...move along...


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:19:52 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Brian Williams: You've been rated as liberal. Won't that be a liability in the general election?

Our liberal press at work.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:20:28 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Obama is not exactly giving a ringing endorsement of the term liberal, however.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Jonathan, Obama falsely shifted the discussion from not the difference between "denouncing" words and "rejecting" an endorsement to whether denouncing or rejecting was a better adjective.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:43 PM EST

Meat the Hardball (2.00 / 2)

Press the Countdown.

I support Obama.

Russert has been a class A dick to Hillary all night.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:21:55 PM EST

agreed. (none / 0)

no one on this stage has the right to interrupt clinton.


HRC for Majority Leader
by omar little on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I've looked in Tim Russert's eyes and he has no soul


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:05 PM EST

Wow (none / 0)

Apparently I'm the only naive person watching this debate.

Todd thinks Hillary tried to score points and so does Josh.

Am I that naive?  I just thought she was saying "we both faced the same issue".

Did I really miss it by that much?


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:11 PM EST

Re: Wow (none / 0)

yes


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (2.00 / 1)

sorry, no offense, but she's trying to slam BO for not taking a strong stand on farrakhan


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 0)

Please do yourself a favor and look up the definition of denounce and reject.

Thanks.


by RussTC3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 0)

I'm not saying she's right; I think she's full of sh-t, but that's what she was trying to do, not just saying, hey, I faced that problem too" an a chummy fashion


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 0)

Hey -

I'm an Obama supporter.

I'm willing to accept that it just flew right over my head.... maybe we need to go to the replay.

Sometimes I miss a lot trying to look for the little.


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (2.00 / 2)

As someone with ties to the Jewish community through ancestry and friends, I don't think she did.  I thought she was saying they both faced it.


by ejintx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 0)

I thought that's what she meant as well. Obama had been talking so long I had forgotten she was there.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Neither Obama or Clinton want to be tagged with the liberal label. They're right and smart to do so.


by Korha on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:38 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Progressive is a better term than liberal, I mean Reactionaries get to call themselves conservatives so we should get to choose our nomiker as well.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

russert should (2.00 / 4)

never be allowed within 5000 miles of a debate.


by highgrade on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:42 PM EST

Re: russert should (2.00 / 1)

Or a teevee studio.

Or a radio studio.

or a printing press.

or a PC.

Or a MAC.

Or a podium.

The moon maybe, but that's as close as I'll go.


by zonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

By the way, I am thoroughly disgusted at this "debate." There have easily been 15 minute stretches of Obama talking.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:52 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

For a candidate building her campaign around the argument that words dont matter, Clinton certainly spends a lot of time harping on them...

And I agree, as a Jewish American, whatever hope of support Senator Clinton had from me completely evaporated. That was absolutely appalling. She should be ashamed.


by LiberalFL on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:01 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

"whatever hope of support Senator Clinton had from me completely evaporated."

Please.  As if she ever had a chance of getting your support?


by newhorizon on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Actually, she did. You're welcome.


by LiberalFL on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

What a shock.


by newhorizon on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yes thank you! I agree with you wholeheartedly as a Jewish American.


Obamanos!
by Pickcorrectly on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Well, I am a Jewish American, and I understand the difference between "denounce" and "reject", and I liked Clinton's answer MUCH, MUCH better.

Obama said all chummy like "well, I can't tell someone who thinks I am a good guy to get lost".  Even if it is Louis Farrakhan.  

Yes, you can tell them to get lost.  And that was exactly Hillary's point.  And I think it is a great point - and something that Obama looked very naive to me in that he, as a Law professor, did not seem to understand.  Give me a break - he understands the difference perfectly well.

No, he didn't want to alienate anyone from his side, even if they are racist bigot supporters that have no place being his supporters.  They are "his" racist bigot supporters.  And I think he reluctantly said that he "rejects" them, for whatever that is worth, and only when forcefully prompted to do so by Senator Clinton.

I hope he doesn't need such tutoring when it comes to Hamas, Iran, et al, even if they "think Obama is a great guy".

FYI - Ohio is probably about 3% Jewish and Texas 1%.  Probably doesn't matter to appeal to them, but there are a lot of people out there who think we have no business with Farrakhan, myself included.


by mikes101 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

So what is the difference between rejecting and denouncing someone?


by dmc2 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Denouncing the support to me means:
"Hey, I don't like it, but I didn't say it, somebody else did.  That statement still stands.  I can't take away what the guy said, although I dislike it"

Which is basically what Obama's longer answer was: "Look I can't tell the guy he can't like me".

Rejecting the support to me means:
"Hey, I don't want your support.  I refuse your support - go somewhere else.  Your support is no good to me.  You have no influence in my presidency or in my ideology."

That is the difference.  I think Obama wanted to have to reject the support of Louis Farrakhan and his followers about as much as Hillary wants to break out her tax return for us, but I am glad he was forced to do so, if only half-heartedly, jokingly, and under the glare of the national media spotlight.


by mikes101 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'm glad that you got what you wanted. I hadn't realized that the voting preference of Louis Farrakhan and his small group of generally apolitical supporters was such a burning issue on the national scene.


by dmc2 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

It is a larger question than that.  It is: "if a known bigot / racist supports you, are you willing to reject that support?"

Obama has huge black support.  But should that support include Nation of Islam?  Well, he cannot reject them at the polling booth, but he can tell them to get lost.

If, for instance, a KKK leader endorsed anyone, I should hope that their support would be soundly rejected, not tacitly accepted like the Republicans routinely do, and like I think Obama would like to be able to do with his Nation of Islam supporters - even though they are just as bad as the KKK.

I am wary of Obama as a Jewish voter for his ties to his pastor, Farrakhan, and his statements like "Israel is one of our most important allies in the Middle East", not "the most important ally in the Middle East".  Also, by his willingness to negotiate with presumably anyone and everyone, which in the past has not always worked out so great for the Jewish people.  See Neville Chamberlain.

I think it is pretty easy for the Jewish voter to see how naive Obama's policies sound - because we have dealt with the issues of peace in the Middle East, terrorism, and national self-defense for 60 years, against parties like Ahmadenijad who want to wipe Israel off the map.  Our world view is more "realist" than "idealist" for that reason.

I think Obama is a really smart guy I am just worried that if he is really going to gloss over distinctions like this, and advocate such a weak foreign policy, maybe he is not cut-out for the big time.

Otherwise, I am OK with Obama - I just think his policies are weaker than Hillary's on health care, trade, etc.


by mikes101 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:02:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

1. The Nation of Islam is not the KKK. I challenge you to find me one single white or Jewish person who has ever been physically harmed by this organization. The KKK has the blood of thousands on its hands.

2. Obama's been strong and clear about the special relationship between the U.S. and Israel.

3. The Neville Chamberlain canard can be thrown around any time anybody suggests negotiation instead of war.

4. The "wipe Israel off the map" quote has been debunked as a mistranslation by Juan Cole. As a Jewish voter, your "realism" does not speak for me.

5. If GW or AIPAC is your idea of strong foreign policy, then yes, I'll take weak. Same goes for health care and trade WRT Hillary.


by dmc2 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

This debate is absolutely terrible.


by RussTC3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:57 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Suppose Cobra Commander orders his troops into Kosovo. What will you do?


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:25:24 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I would like to answer this.  Obviously, I would send in Scout first, with some explosive fire-arrows....


by mgee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Russert "if Medvedev asks Russian troops to help Serbia retake Kosovo" - again with the crazy hypotheticals.  How about asking about something that could actually happen!


by Mr DC on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:26:19 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

At the risk of stating the obvious:  Russert sucks


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Won (none / 0)

There was so little audience participation (which has always helped Obama) and so many polite, nuanced  nudges from Hillary to Obama on why they are so different, that Hillary won.


Obama-Clinton: The New Glory of America
by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:27:58 PM EST

Re: Hillary Won (none / 0)

I have got to disagree. I think Obama pulled off looking WAY better than Clinton especially at the beginning. All the crowds reactions (as few as they were) were from something Obama said.


Obamanos!
by Pickcorrectly on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Do Obama's myriad irresponsible present votes count toward those he could take back?


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:28:13 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

The moderators had a stranglehold on this debate. They are showcasing themselves and not the candidates. They wanted a gotcha moment and they robbed the American people.


"The Bumble Bee flies because it thinks it can."
by LadyEagle on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:28:24 PM EST

A question for Tim Russert (2.00 / 2)

If all the viewers today decided that you were an idiot and asked MSNBC to fire you, what would you do?


by praxis1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:28:59 PM EST

Re: A question for Tim Russert (2.00 / 2)

Show them a graphic


by gil on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Sigh. This is a tiny, tiny, tiny point. But Obama was not a law professor. He was a lecturer. Colloquially, yes. But in the university setting, he was not.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:30:29 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I was botherd by that, too. It's not tiny. It tells you a lot about his self-esteem.


by praxis1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I agree that no lecturer would ever call him/herself a professor at a faculty meeting, or sign a recommendation letter using the term professor. It is giving yourself a promotion, in a way.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:35:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Sure. But a student would still call him professor and, to the general public, it is a meaningless distinction.


by mainelib on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

Obama is such a sleaze...His closing statement is a completely tacky thing. "Maybe more" contests...

Usually you don't give someone's damned obituary when they are SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO YOU! Asshole. I hope she beats expectations and beats his pants off next week in Texas and Ohio.


by arkansasdemocrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:31:09 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Is it NOT over? He just gave an ending statement. How weird!


by praxis1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:31:09 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Obama is making a pitch for Hillary as VP.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:31:53 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama hijacks a question and gives a closing argument. Then Williams asks him to give another closing statement.

And by the way, he honors Hillary Clinton. And John McCain. And Hillary Clinton. He's unique. A short bio. More uniqueness.

Between this answer and his closing statement, earlier, I think it's been ten minutes straight of Obama.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:32:58 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I miss debate clocks.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

No home run for Clinton = Obama momentum continues.  This debate looked a lot like all the others, except for the increased Tim-Russert-dick factor.  Status quo is maintained, I think


John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children
by Ms Bluezone on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:35:41 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I agree, mostly because debates hardly ever change anything, unless they're completely one-sided, like the first Kerry-Bush debate. And even that wasn't enough in the end.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

i just wanted to be the 259th person to state that Russert sucks.


!
by alex100 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:36:51 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

amen


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Without a crowd (none / 0)

Obama looks weak. Hillary is crushing him, and she's a girl. John McCain can really unload on him--he won't have to worry about appearing unladylike in front of the boys.


by Upstate Dem on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:36:53 PM EST

Re: Without a crowd (none / 0)

Um.... why did he look weak?

Post examples please...

Personally I think his debate strategy was perfect. He didn't let Hillary score any real points and didn't make any mistakes his own.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without a crowd (none / 0)

He basically repeated her answers without adding anything new.  She confronted Russert on his obvious bullshit while Obama seemed to be looking for a pat on the head.  Her answers contained a wealth of detail and foreshadowed a President who would have mastery over her office rather than one who would always be on the lookout for someone to compromise with.  Her general demeanor
projected strength, particularly on the crucial foreign policy questions that will determine the winner of a race with McCain.  She simply looked far more up to the job than he did.
by Upstate Dem on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without a crowd (none / 0)

that doesn't really matter at this point. Most people are going to talk about the reject/denounce line.

horrible moderation.


!
by alex100 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without a crowd (none / 0)

"and she's a girl"?!?!?!

Care to explain that or are you just trolling?


by gil on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without a crowd (none / 0)

Men can be as nasty as they wanna be.  For the Tweetys of the world it makes them look tough.


by Upstate Dem on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

He ALWAYS tries to help her get out of her chair.. every fricken time. Anyone else notice that?


by devoted1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:37:24 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

After the crap about the "snub" he pretty much has to do anything polite.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

It's called being a gentleman. Sorry if you haven't had experience with it.


by EMTP democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

I noticed it for the first time after the Snub. Not sure if he did it before that. I couldn't care less either way.


by OrangeFur on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Its a show of power. I'm sure you already knew that.


by devoted1 on Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

She crushed him on healthcare and she actually won the Iraq debate if the websites are any indication.


by americanincanada on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:37:51 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well, Mr. Beeton, how about it?  Jonathan is pretty disgusted by Hillary's attempt to paint Obama as anti-Semitic.  

How do you defend her actions?  This is gutter politics.


by leveller on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:38:21 PM EST

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

She was hardly doing that. She was pointing out what she did differently in a similar situation. it may not resonate with you but there are those for whom it will.


by americanincanada on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Look, I support Obama and I find no merit to your charge.  It's not clear if she was trying to support Obama or appear more enthusiastic in her denunciation of hate groups.  Eithe way, she was not implying that Obama was anti-Semitic.


by rfahey22 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second Debate Thread (none / 0)

Did you even hear what she said? She said that she was endorsed by people she though were hateful and not only did she "denounce" their words as Obama said he's done, but she "rejected" their support, as Obama said he can't. It's really easy to reject someone's support. You say, "I reject Farrakhan's endorsement of me, because his support symbolically or no is not the kind of support I want."


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]