Hillary's Kobyashi Maru

The 60's. Those were the days. Classic Trek. Kubrick's 2001. Armstrong actually walking on lunar soil, thanks to a liberal political figure committing his nation to the goal of landing a man on the moon and returning safely by the end of the decade.

Naturally, blood had to be spilled along the way. Change never comes easy. Or without cost.

As a kid growing up in white suburbia, I was drawn to anything sci-fi related, especially if it had anything to do with the future or space travel. It wasn't long before I was also drawn to like-minded people, who believed in multi-cultural societies that all got along working for the benefit of each other.

I didn't know it back then, but already I was a dyed-in-the-wool liberal to the core. We didn't have the internet to communicate with kindred souls, nor were the terms "liberal" and "conservative" tossed around to define which side one stood on. The divisions in those days were much starker, as in "black " and "white" as well as "young" and "old".

Young Obama voters like to claim the main reason they support their man is his position on Iraq versus Hillary's, failing to realize most are just like him. No skin in the game when it counted, and overlooking his votes since then. Then they have the balls to declare him the victor over Hillary because of a few delegates. That she should adhere to the rules. Like not seating FL and MI.

Captain Kirk would have told these fools to pound sand. So would Bobby Kennedy.

Unlike the kids of today, when I was growing up, there was such a thing called the draft. At the age of 13, as I was about to enter high school, we'd talk about how to avoid going to 'Nam. It was just a given at the time among our crowd that once you turned 17, your ass was overseas. Between that and facing the prospect of being nuked by the Ruskies on a daily basis, it's a wonder there wasn't more rioting in the streets. And those in my neighborhoods weren't even black. Not even close.

In NY, we were represented by the Hillary of the day, ol' RFK himself. Not only did he relocate to NY to redefine himself, he set up base to take on a sitting President throughout his entire term. No one had any illusions, least of all LBJ, that this guy was a shadow government unto himself. Nowadays, RFK is the stuff of mythology. Back then, he was hated and feared. "Ol' Ruthless" they called him.

Progressive bloggers, including guys like Bowers, Stollers and Kos, like to hold Hillary's 2002 vote against her like a sledgehammer as proof her vote makes her unfit to lead the country. These people obviously have no perspective. Hillary's behavior and accountability with regards to Iraq isn't even in the same league as RFK, let alone the same ballpark.

We're talking Vietnam, baby. 58K American lives lost, to say nothing of those still suffering one way or another to this day after all was said and done. And RFK was seen as a major supporter until the Tet offensive, after which he gave a speech on February 8, 1968, which was plastered all over the next day's headlines including the NY Times proclaiming KENNEDY ASSERTS U.S. CANNOT WIN. Ol' Ruthless was denounced as a traitor by no less than three of his friends as a result. To put matters in further perspective of the times, while RFK led LBJ 52 - 32 in a Harris Poll, that same poll also showed 50% of Americans opposed to RFK's position of halting the bombing in Vietnam.

Unlike the Lefties today, no one was publicly asking RFK in print or on TV for ANY apologies on his votes regarding 'Nam. They only wanted to know what his positions were with regards to ending the bloody mess.

While Obama's camp goes around screaming of skulduggery courtesy of Team Clinton, one shudders to think how his team of wimps would handle Bobby's cutthroat tactics. Talk about Machiavellian. While trying to figure out his own political positioning, RFK actively encouraged his rival Eugene McCarthy to run on the anti-war vote, all the while never believing McCarthy would actually run a fool's errand, while he preserved his all his political options. Naturally, the college students provided McCarthy his initial base of support, throwing a monkey wrench into the plan.

The real turning point for RFK was a letter from Pete Hamill, a friend and noted writer, who penned the following in a letter to RFK:

    "If we have LBJ for another four years, there won't be much of a country left. I've heard the arguments about the practical politics... you will destroy the Democratic Party, you will destroy yourself. I say that if you don't run, you might destroy the Democratic Party; it will end up nationally the way it has in New York, a party filled with decrepit old bastards...and young hustlers. with blue hair, trying to get their hands on highway contracts. It will be a party that says to millions and millions of people that they don't count, that the decision of 2000 hack pols does. They will say that idealism is a cynical joke...

    "I wanted to remind you that in Watts I didn't see pictures of Malcolm X or Ron Karenga on the walls. I saw pictures of JFK. That is your capital in the most cynical sense; it is your obligation in another, the obligation of staying true to whatever it was that put those pictures on those walls. I don't think we can afford another five summers of blood. I do know this: if a 15-year-old kid is given a choice between Rap Brown and RFK, he might choose the way of sanity... Give that same kid a choice between Rap Brown and LBJ, and he'll probably reach for his revolver."

These days those of us who lived through those times view the loss of RFK as a future denied, but you wouldn't know it back then when he stuck the shiv into McCarthy's back, announcing his candidacy after McCarthy had run against LBJ in the NH primary. Democrats all over were torn over the prospects of a November disaster with Bobby's entrance into the race.

One can woulda-coulda-shoulda all they want had Ol' Ruthless lived, but we do know what happened in the aftermath of his assassination. Ironically, one of the chief arguments made against RFK running was that if he lost, the GOP would own the Presidency for the next 20 years. Essentially, that's exactly what happened, but as fate would have it, not because of RFK, but in spite of.

Ever since the '68 convention, the Dems pretty much gamed the system to take the nominating decision out of the back rooms as much as possible. Considering the track record of the Dem Primaries over the past 40 years, one would have to say Bill Clinton's success was more a result of his tenacity than anything else. A total fluke when one takes into account the other standard bearers prior to this election season. The back room, on the other hand, gave us FDR, Truman, JFK and LBJ, which pretty much accounts for over 35 years of Democratic gains. Social Security and G.I. Bill, anyone? And that's just for starters. How about The Great Society? How about the benefits still being reaped as a result of NASA?

While the Left made tremendous gains during that time, they also dropped the ball big time as a result of their Obama-like moral superior POV. Believing their arguments would win the day on the basis of their intellectual reasoning,the Left couldn't be bothered with the day-to-day/hand-to-hand/in-the-trenches combat necessary to win hearts and minds of the American public on a regular basis. The Left even displayed its latent sexism by not supporting the ratification of the ERA as much as it should and could have and taking abortion rights for granted once the Supreme Court legalized the procedure.

The Left talks a good fight. Liberals like Bowers, Stollers, Kos and others get everyone all riled up over fighting this bill or that, stopping Alito or some other Right-wing nutjob from a bench appointment, then moan and groan afterwards over why the Dems capitulated as usual.

Then they lead the charge for Hillary to drop out, clamoring her cause a lost one.

Either they're not Trekkers or Kennedy fans, 'cause obviously they haven't a clue.

When writing STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN, Nick Meyer came up with the concept of the Kobyashi Maru, the "no-win scenario". Accordinging to the script, only one Starfleet candidate had ever passed the test, which dealt with facing a problem of overwhelming odds, and only as a result of cheating. Predictably, Producer Harve Bennett was aghast that Meyer would dare postulate that a hero such as James T Kirk would ever stoop so low as to cheat to win. Meyer won his argument by pointing to several instances in the original series where Kirk did exactly that in order to overcome such daunting odds.

Author Tom Wolfe recounted in his book THE RIGHT STUFF how the early test pilots would execise every friggin' option when they got into trouble before pushing the jettison button. More often than not, the pilot usually crashed with the plane because they were still exercising their options, never once believing for even a moment they couldn't save their ass at the last second. These guys weren't remembered as foolhardy idiots or thrillseekers, but rather as heroes and patriots who gave their lives for their country.

The Kennedys were like that as well, once upon a time. JFK taking it to the brink with Krushchev over the missiles in Cuba, which is why he'll be forever in the history books as one of our more beloved Presidents. RFK going against his party and President in '68, to be forever remembered in history as one of the greatest Presidents who never was. Even Teddy. I was there in Boston when he announced at Fanueil Hall in Boston that he was taking on Carter for the Presidency, among the crowd that was cheering him on, and it wasn't just a handful of tourists either.

On one hand, Lefties get jealous over the success of the Right-wingers, then piss and moan when Dems stoop to their tactics, claiming the Left is better than that.

Kirk wouldn't be the fictional icon he is if he were portrayed as an indecisive waffler, nor would the Kennedys have achieved the success they've enjoyed had they not kicked ass and taken names. Likewise, the Big Dawg - ol' Slick Willy himself - wouldn't have survived the Primary season back in '92 or his Presidency had he listened to the naysayers back in the day. Nor will Hillary if she does.

And why should she?

She's got over 1000 delegates in her pocket and a guarantee that her opponent won't reach the finish line with the necessary total to declare victory. At a minimum, she has a secure Senate seat to return to, and the power to dictate the party platform and who's the VP. As much as Obama and his supporters would like everyone to believe otherwise, he's not in the driver's seat to the extent the media portrays him as. JFK and LBJ must be laughing their asses off in the afterlife whenever anyone puts the terms "Obama" and "commanding lead" in the same sentence.

Back in 1968, both Gene Roddenberry and Stanley Kubrick showed the public a vision of the future that was based on the reality of the time. Because of Right-wing policies and the Left's inability to street-fight, America is more than a bit behind schedule.

As Ol' Ruthless advised JFK in a manner Kirk would have been proud of during the Cuban Missile Crisis, so too must Hillary follow her course no matter how much everyone around her is looking for safe harbor. That means going all the way to the convention and risking screams of back-room deals or being called racists. Anyone who believes Obama is going to get a pass on account of his skin color in the general election is going to be brought back to Earth faster than the Enterprise at warp speed. This is for the Presidency of the US. You don't get the Captain's chair if you aren't willing to go all the way.



Display:


Wow (2.00 / 1)

I wish I could write like you.

Highly recommended.

John


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:05:07 AM EST

Re: Your position is not logical, Captain. (2.00 / 1)

I disagree with you wholeheartedly about Hillary, her departure from the race, and the long term good of the party; however, I can respect a clever argument well presented.

If as I suspect, Hillary looses Texas by more than five and wins or looses Ohio by less than five, I think she would do herself and the party a lot of good by folding her tent.  She has already given the Repubs a lot of good lines they will use in the fall.  She has a future in the Senate and possible a leadership position if she stops throwing cow-pies at Obama's head.

My guess is that Obama will sweep the vast majority of delegates no matter what she does, and the supers are going to coalesce quickly.  More negative campaigning is not good for Obama or Hillary.  The policy differences between the two are minor and so pressuring for platform concessions is largely irrelevant.

Bottom Line: What is the point?  I see little to be gained and much to be potentially lost.  Your argument seems clever but impractical.

Spock


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:49:24 AM EST

Re: Your position is not logical, Captain. (2.00 / 2)

We wouldn't have a country in the first place if the Founding Fathers had listened to the prevailing wisdom of the day. According to historical records, about 30% of the American population supported the signing of the Declaration of Independence, 30% were staunch supporters of the crowd, leaving the remaining 40% to be dragged kicking and screaming into taking sides once the fighting got under way. Winning the war was by no means a sure thing.

Likewise, no battle that ever mattered was won simply because one side told the other to simply lay down their arms and give up.

If that were the case, why bother betting on the NFL? Everyone knows the Patriots are going to win the Super Bowl. Oh yeah. They didn't.

Same principle in politics.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:18:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your position is not logical, Captain. (none / 0)

I'm not suggesting that she quit before next Tuesday.  But if she does not make substantial gains in delegates or popular votes, she no longer has a viable path to the nomination after next Tuesday.  Continuing to fight when the war is mathematically lost makes no sense, particularly if she continues to campaign in a way that is divisive and potential damaging to the presumptive nominee.

By all means, take your best shot, but don't damage your party or her own future prospects within it.  Explain what is to be achieved by tilting at windmills?


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My thoughts, too (2.00 / 0)

If Hillary wins the delegate count, then I crawl over broken glass to make sure she defeats McCain ...

Hillary Clinton is the strongest Dem. candidate to come along ... well, forever ... she is one of a kind. What to have her in 1980, 1984 and 1988, 2000 and 2004 ... ???


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Several disagreements (none / 0)

But the one I'll bring up is about policy differences between Hillary and Barack.  Agreed that they aren't that far apart in actual platform.  The difference, however, is in who will fight hardest for the agenda.

Barack will fight hardest for his own self-aggrandizement.

Hillary will fight hardest to get universal health care for us all.


by Montague on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several disagreements (none / 0)

In case you haven't noticed, Obama is a hell of a fighter.  He has bested HRC and BC when they had all the experience and the advantages.  

It isn't just about "fighting," it is about "fighting effectively."  Obama is building a majority coalition that will allow him to win in the fall and govern far more effectively than would HRC with her polarizing image and style.

The "hyper-partisan" POV, so common on this site, is far too simplistic.  Obama is building the party and bringing millions of new voters who will help down-ballot Dems win.  I continue to be amazed that so many seem unable to grasp this central truth.


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to stop watching TV and go outside ... (none / 0)

Basing real life decisions on the "lessons" of Star Trek episodes from 1967 is kind of dumb.

Keep up the good work.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:56:49 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 0)

Kirk wouldn't be the fictional icon he is if he were portrayed as an indecisive waffler,

Dood, he is fictional ...

This is where your problems start.

Lay off the Indica ..


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:59:10 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, but Bobby Kennedy wasn't, and he went up against a sitting President and his own party.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

And he got a lot of support because people were mad at the establishment candidate (first LBJ, then Hubert Humphrey) BECAUSE OF THE WAR.  Even if the Depression-generation voters didn't want to get out of Vietnam without victory, they still resented the hell out of LBJ for allowing us to get into such a mess in the first place, just as they had been mad at Truman back in the early fifties.  Eugene McCarthy was more outspoken in his opposition to the war, but he did not carry the authority of the Kennedy family, nor was he seen as a "serious" candidate, once Kennedy got into the race.  So your analogy doesn't necessarily prove what you want it to.

Hillary is not RFK.  I'm not sure who she analogizes to.  Hillary is not running against the Democratic Party.  For the past seven years, she has been the defacto spokesperson for the Democratic Party during a period of its enervation and tacit collaboration with a president who is out of control.  Rather than bucking the trend, she has been part of the trend.  While some of us were out marching against the war in protest, she was defending the decision to go to war and her husband was defending the president in op/eds and public statements.

I understand if you think that this is all Bush's fault and no blame should accrue to those Democrats that voted for it.  I understand if you think that Hillary was deceived by Bush.  But we have never had a really good explanation of her position on the war.  And the fact that the war is ongoing is rather worrisome.  What will she really do when she gains power.

We need somebody that can change things, not somebody who would not fight for us in Congress when we most needed somebody to defend our country.  


by Dumbo on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 06:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Storytelling (none / 0)

is an incredibly important aspect of human culture.  Through stories, we describe and define ourselves, we express our hopes (yes, there's that word "hope") and fears, we dream of better futures and better lives, we conquer dragons (or lose to them).

Stories are not told in a vacuum.


by Montague on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:53:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 1)

Back in 1968, both Gene Roddenberry and Stanley Kubrick showed the public a vision of the future that was based on the reality of the time.

Dood. Life isn't movies. Movies aren't life.

You need to get help soon.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:01:05 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (2.00 / 2)

Awesome diary. Thanks so much for the trip down memory lane.

I am going to max out my donations to Senator Clinton to encourage her to stay in all the way to the convention, no matter how knock down and drag out it gets. The media will love the horserace and we will get plenty of free air time. Inevitably coverage will have to swing back in her favor, if only for the tacky reason that media will have to manufacture more drama than merely demonizing  her constantly. It gets old. Soon they will start to admire her tenacity, and get some perspective back on Obama's limitations.

I just saw Ed Rendell, Governor of PA, a longtime friend and endorser of Hillary, talk again about how he know them both, and has read all their proposals, and how she is so much better prepared than any candidate for president he has ever seen going back to 1980. He said she was so much better than Bill (I completely agree), and her proposals are "brilliant" and so much better than Obama's. He proceeded to talk about her education, economic, and health care proposals to detail why they are so superior.

This is the person we need to have as president. She is so much better than her husband. She could be one of the very best presidents we have ever had.

Rendell also said she would take PA by a large margin in their primary.

We need to help her fight to get there!


by 07rescue on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:01:35 AM EST

You need votes and money (none / 0)

That's not a TV show ...


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 1)

You don't get the Captain's chair if you aren't willing to go all the way.

Dood. There is no Captain's chair.

It was just a crappy, low budget TV series 40 years ago.

Get over it.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:03:00 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

"It was just a crappy, low budget TV series 40 years ago."
whoa!....them's fightin' words!!!
by jentwisl on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How do you kick ass ... (none / 0)

When you have no money and down in delegates?

Is this how you folks balance your checkbook?

Do you just decide you're going to "kick ass" against the bank and tell them they're not going to get a check for the mortgage?


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:10:37 AM EST

Fear of A Black Planet (none / 0)

Yes, America is all about fighting to keep a Black American from being President.

Didn't I see you at Fort Sumter, loading cannon ?

Seriously. I very much like and respect Hillary Clinton. If she were ahead in all the polls by 30 percent, as she was in December, I would be (and was) willing to whatever it takes to get her elected. She's not.

This diary is plain stupid, even discounting the Star Trek references. Why not base your political analysis on Gene Gene the Dancing Machine on the Gong Show?  Why not base your political analysis on a Mazola commercial? Or Chief Jay Strong Bow v. Nickolai Volkov ?

And lay off the indica and sativa. They are turning your mind to meringue.

Read some Darcus Howe and Linton Kwesi  Johnson and Jean Binta Breeze. Learn about the realities of community and political organizing. It's not about cheesy TV shows from the 1960s.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:20:46 AM EST

Re: Fear of A Black Planet (2.00 / 0)

I would vote for Jesse Jackson over Barack Obama. At least Jesse has street cred putting himself on the line for the working man, whereas Obama is an empty suit.

As for fear of a Black President, you're reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. Kirk may be my favorite Trek captain, but Sisko was a close second, and I currently live in a multi-cultural neighborhood by choice, far removed from the environment I grew up in.

My comments about race and sexism are based living in white neighborhoods that still display those same traits, albeit behind closed doors.

My own prejudice is against stupid people, no matter their color or sex.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Sorry (none / 0)

I'm sorry for over-reacting.

But you can't write a political essay on current events using James T. Kirk and Star Trek as its central metaphor.

Why?

Because everyone will laugh at you. You will sound like the stupidest fucking person in the world.

Just trying to help.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fear of A Black Planet (none / 0)

"Obama is an empty suit"

What tired pap.  Can you at least acknowledge his academic achievements, his literary accomplishments, his brilliant work as a political strategist?  

Obama is your RFK, with the cajones to take on the establishment candidate, and he is the one who has managed to beat her and BC in a fight where they had the vast majority of the advantages.  Give credit where credit is due, to do otherwise is to clearly demonstrate your own lack of intellectual honesty.


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fear of A Black Planet (2.00 / 0)

I would vote for Jesse Jackson over Barack Obama.

Of course you would. He's not running.

Dood. I've played 3 Card Monte.

Stop insulting my intelligence.


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jon Stewart's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 1)

Jon Stewart wrote this entire thread.

It's the only way to explain it ...

Seriously, folks:

You cannot use STAR TREK EPISODES as a meaningful analog for politics in 2008.

Why not use Lost in Space episodes?

Or Dobie Gillis ?

Or Maytag commercials ?

I've seen Ralph Nader and Ron Paul threads that are more sober and realistic and sensible than this ...

Is this just an on-line clipboard for an upcoming Denis Leary special on HBO ???


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:28:40 AM EST

Ending the war is not meaningless (none / 0)

Bringing the soldiers home is not meaningless. My cousin, Jeffrey Olson, is in Iraq now. I want him home. That is not meaningless. That is meaningful.
Just my thoughts ...
by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't need any working knowledge (none / 0)

To know that if you get a spray of 1,000 degree molten metal shot through your face, you have no fucking face left.

And when your sad sack body lands back in the U.S. those medal they pin on your chest don't restore your face.

244 Army and Marine soldiers have died since this summer in Iraq.

Why don't you go knock on their doors and tell them all about Hillary's great plans for their kids asses ?


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

Its funny you should bring up Star Trek.  I was thinking that the Clinton campaign reminded me of the 2001 series "Enterprise".. much-hyped but uninspired, low-rated and cancelled early.  

Low ratings prompted UPN to cancel Star Trek: Enterprise on February 2, 2005, but the network allowed the series to complete its fourth season; the final episode aired on May 13, 2005. After a run of four seasons and 98 episodes, it was the first Star Trek series since the original Star Trek to have been cancelled by its network rather than finished by its producers


John McCain loves war.
by Winston Smith on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:41:59 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

Dont get me wrong, I actually liked "Enterprise."  It wasn't that bad of a show, but year after year, people just get tired of sequels.  


John McCain loves war.
by Winston Smith on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:00:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

working link


John McCain loves war.
by Winston Smith on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:06:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

Do you care about our party?  Do you care about our nominee?  Do you care about the future of our country?  With all due respect, this is not a game, we need to win in the fall.  We can not afford to damage our prospects because a few die-hards think it is cool to have a bare knuckled fight.  IMHO, your attitude is highly irresponsible.  

Try thinking about the meaning of the term "win at all costs."  At the cost of loosing in the fall?  At the cost of the Supreme Court?  At the cost of 100 years of occupation in Iraq?  At the cost of unchecked global warming?  Wake up, this is not a video game, this is our future.  This is my grandson's future.


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:42:15 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (2.00 / 0)

They said the same thing to RFK in 1968.

The problem is the Left took it for granted since they were on the side of the angels ever since. Their lack of a fighting attitude is why the GOP has won so much ever since.

Do you really think if Obama wins the Right will simply roll over and treat him the same way they would a GOP President?


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:22:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

I certainly do not expect the Right to roll over.  I expect then to throw all kinds of smears at Obama, but I expect that the vast majority of the attacks will not stick because Obama is a very effective counter-puncher and because Obama is authentic.  He comes across as honest which means that people are less inclined to believe the lies and smears of the Repubs.


by upper left on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

fictional icons from TV (none / 0)

this reminds me of the ever-so-popular conservative thought about what-would-Jack-Bauer do... most impressive.  I am a huge Trekkie and I am not dopey enough to present Kirk as any kind of figure to look up to.  Give me a break.  

As to the support of competitiveness and "never give up, never surrender" (sorry - you got me going on the fictional character quoting thing) - fine.  I'm not a fan of the '04-let's-all-drop-everything-and-suppor t-Kerry approach... a vigorous debate is a good thing.  For this reason Edwards' campaign was a thing of beauty.  But, truly, what does Clinton bring to the debate at this point?  Alas, you don't see it as a debate, you see it as, ideally, a criminal enterprise where the decisions are hidden and taken out of the hands of the poor ignorant electorate and shivs are used when honest discourse fails to win the day.  Swiftboating and Willy Horton smears and fixing of elections fit comfortably under your big tent of anything-goes. Congratulations.  


by etoipi on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:54:01 AM EST

more holes than McCain's credibility (none / 0)

The comparison to RFK is pretty cheeky considering that his wife and brother have enthusiastically endorsed the other candidate.

Bill Clinton appears to disagree with you.

Bobby never lost 11 contests in a row, with the closest being within 17%.

The current NYT/CBS national poll is: Obama 54%, Clinton 38%, not the other way around.

It's appropriate that you compare HRC's current ability to win to fiction.

Finally, even if I buy the similarities to RFK and his situation in 1968, you've forgotten one thing.  She's running against Jack.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:55:40 AM EST

Re: more holes than McCain's credibility (2.00 / 1)

Obama isn't even a poor man's JFK, who served three terms in Congress, twice was elected to the Senate and was a decorated war hero to boot before being elected President. He also traveled far more extensively across the globe as an adult compared to Obama, thus better informed and prepared to deal with the current geopolitical situations of his day.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tell that to this guy... (none / 0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hupgC1d-S t8


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tell that to this guy... (2.00 / 1)

Do some research. I myself was surprised at Ted's endorsement of Obama because I thought if anything he'd be offended at the JFK comparisons, until I checked into the historical record myself.

Despite Sorensen's rep as a Kennedy man, he did all he could to dissuade RFK from going against LBJ in '68, including providing LBJ the means to make it politically impossible for Bobby to run. When LBJ choose not to form the committee to study the options for ending the Vietnam war that Sorensen himself recommended with Bobby among its members, Sorensen was backed into a corner that he believed was a doomed enterprise.

Bobby himself had no illusions that Ted's main priority was self-preservation.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 05:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you're right... (none / 0)

I don't know Sorensen's history with Bobby although wikipedia says he was part of the 1968 Kennedy campaign.  He didn't stay with LBJ too long after November, 1963.  

That said, he was undoubtedly a Jack Kennedy man and I bring him into the picture for what he has said about Obama.  He even claims to have started the comparison between Obama and Jack Kennedy (maybe in kidding).

He has contributed much more than an endorsement, he's been an Obama surrogate out on the stump (I unsuccessfully asked the campaign to send him to some meetings I was involved with) and has even helped a bit with Obama speeches.  Check this out...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/ Story?id=4259093&page=1


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 06:16:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And RFK's children endorsed HRC (none / 0)

Also, this?  "She's running against Jack."

Overstatement much?  Sheeee-it.


by Montague on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Quitting is Un American (none / 0)

I am so sick of hearing what someone thinks is un-American.  Truly.  


by etoipi on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:58:25 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 1)

Captain Kirk would have told these fools to pound sand. So would Bobby Kennedy.

This is a joke, right. A Mel Brooks movie. A David Letterman sketch?

Do you write for Ace of Spades HQ?


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:11:56 AM EST

Shut up, Doug. You're boring. nt (2.00 / 0)


by Montague on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:56:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (1.00 / 1)

The Left even displayed its latent sexism by not supporting the ratification of the ERA as much as it should and could have and taking abortion rights for granted once the Supreme Court legalized the procedure.

SoCalMan -- What the fuck is this shit ? Could you please never write here again?

Do you realize how profoundly wrong, stupid and insulting this is to people who have been manning the barricades for these causes since the late 1970s?

Will you please go to RedState and get it on with them and leave us alone ?


by DougWatts on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:22:17 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

This fellow must be a Republican.

Even though Obama probably takes more liberal positions on many issues than does Hillary Clinton, Schaffner says the perception among Republicans is that he is more moderate.

"This is a matter of style over substance," Schaffner notes. "Obama speaks so often of bringing the parties together and working with Republicans, he seems less polarizing to Republicans than Clinton, who has long been demonized by that party."
The Pew Research Center corroborates Schaffner's inkling. It recently produced a report showing that Obama is perceived as more liberal than Clinton among Democrats, yet is seen as more moderate than Clinton among Republicans.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimar ies2008


by Cold Porter on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:29:09 PM EST

Re: Hillary's Kobyashi Maru (none / 0)

This fellow must be a Republican.

Even though Obama probably takes more liberal positions on many issues than does Hillary Clinton, Schaffner says the perception among Republicans is that he is more moderate.

"This is a matter of style over substance," Schaffner notes. "Obama speaks so often of bringing the parties together and working with Republicans, he seems less polarizing to Republicans than Clinton, who has long been demonized by that party."
The Pew Research Center corroborates Schaffner's inkling. It recently produced a report showing that Obama is perceived as more liberal than Clinton among Democrats, yet is seen as more moderate than Clinton among Republicans.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimar ies2008


by Cold Porter on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 04:30:28 PM EST


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