Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in Nat'l Pop. Vote.

Hendrik Hertzberg of The New Yorker does some number crunching and comes up with some interesting conclusions:

Let's look down the road a bit. In 2004, Democratic turnout in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania combined was about three million. We can reasonably expect that it will be about 20 per cent higher this year, or about 3,600,000.

For Clinton to even the popular score, she needs to win those three states by a collective 54 to 46 per cent, or 8 points. That's unlikely but not inconceivable. However, this calculation includes the votes Clinton got in Michigan (where Obama was not on the ballot) and the totals for Florida (where no one campaigned). Including these, especially Michigan's, is politically and morally dubious.

If Florida's votes are counted but not Michigan's, then Clinton needs to carry Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania by 59 per cent to 41 per cent, or 17 points, in order to match Obama's vote totals. And if results from both Florida and Michigan are excluded, she needs to win by 62 per cent to 38 per cent. Margins like these do not seem within the realm of possibility.

One more number. In this year's Democratic primaries, the equivalent of Al Gore's national popular-vote margin in the 2000 general election would be around 125,000 votes. So if the final difference between Clinton and Obama is more than that, it will be awkward, to say the least, for the superdelegates to take it upon themselves to reverse the voters' choice.

As I said in my last post, national polling is somewhat meaningless at this point -- at least in terms of predicting where the race for the Democratic nomination stands (because the majority of the states have already voted but they're nevertheless still included in the national polls).

That said, the actual nationwide popular vote could be important come this summer, particularly in the eventuality that nether candidate can hit the magic number of 2,025 delegates. In such a case, it just doesn't look possible that Hillary Clinton would be able to overtake Barack Obama in the overall popular vote in the states in which both were on the ballot (every state except for Michigan) -- and certainly not in the states in which both were on the ballot and actively campaigned (i.e. every state save for Florida and Michigan). As Hertzberg says in a section not quoted above, while this would not be binding in a legal sense, it could be "politically dispositive."

Update [2008-2-21 19:47:45 by Jonathan Singer]: To be clear, I'm not advocating for deciding the nomination on the basis of the nationwide primary vote, because that's not my intent. This is all about delegates. At the same time, because superdelegates do matter and, in the case that this goes all the way to the convention, this metric will likely be important to these superdelegates, I think it's worth noting that Clinton faces a significant uphill climb (and perhaps an impossible one) to take a lead in the overall vote in states that will be seated at the Democratic convention.



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Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama (2.00 / 0)

I do believe that several of the front pagers came out and endorsed the "will of the people" argument using the national popular vote totals as a rubric.  Time to be consistent.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:40:43 PM EST

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (2.00 / 0)

Obama is also catching up in superdelegates. He gained another 3 today.  Clinton used to have nearly three-quarters of superdelegates.  Now she has about 59%.

This makes Clinton's uphill climb even steeper, even as Obama gets major union endorsements and raises far more money.


by mainelib on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:43:47 PM EST

I don't want to jinx anything (2.00 / 1)

But we're rapidly approaching the point where I think Obama can start talking about seating MI and FL, too.

In my weaker moments, when I forget to spin - I've always thought it would be necessary to "win" the pledged delegate race with MI and FL included.

I'm increasingly optimistic that, after March 4, we might very be able to start agreeing to seat them.

The symbolic firewalls -- total national popular vote, pledged delegates with MI/FL included, total vote with MI/FL included, total delegates with FL/MI AND super D's -- they're all starting to fall by the wayside one by one.

Of course - Obama needs to close the deal.  He needs to win one of OH and TX.  If he does that, I think we do need to start talking about how we'll deal with the mechanics of ensuring Denver is a united Obamathon.


by zonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:52:39 PM EST

Re: I don't want to jinx anything (none / 0)

well, as we've seen tonight, Hillary has lost texas... democratic voters are split 47-47 basically..   independents & republican voters will give him the win by a number of points, easily..    

that said, Ohio is hers to lose right now... its tightening up but she'll probably win by 5 or 6..


by soros on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At this point, only one person can defeat Obama (2.00 / 1)

That person is Barack Obama.

It's not over, and even when it's over, Clinton will simply suspend her campaign and be ready in the wings should Obama go ahead and defeat himself.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:53:56 PM EST

Sweet Destiny (none / 0)

Somehow I feel that's what will happen. Call it Sweet Destiny!


by Sandeep on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

I have argued for seating the delegates from MI and FL for a long time, but there are two sides, no question.

But in this case it is ridiculous to suggest the Michigan and especially the Florida voters don't count in determining the 'national popular will.'  Obama and no one else is responsible for him not being on that ballot.  Why should the hundreds of thousands Michigan voters -- not to mention the hundreds of thousands who supported Obama and voted 'uncommitted' -- why should they be told that they don't count as democrats?!?

This isn't even about DNC rules to determine the delegate count.  This argument is simply based on the taking the national temperature or whatever to see who the most Democrats support.

Hertzberg is right to allude to the 2000 election, but for the wrong reasons.  How can we possibly write off over 1,000,000 Florida Democrats?!?!  Once again, not even debating whether they should be sanctioned under DNC rules here.  This is about the "moral" question of whether their voice counts in determining the popular will of Democrats nationally.

Hertzberg is smarter than this but he has been shilling for Obama for a while.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:54:03 PM EST

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

I can understand counting Florida in the national vote count, but Michigan is a no go for me. Only one candidate was on the ballot -- what kind of election is that?


Blogging here @ MyDD.com. Twittering @jonathanhsinger.
by Jonathan Singer on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

But it may not matter.

Both in national vote totals and in pledged delegates totals -- Obama just might be able to spot Clinton MI out of hand... Practically speaking, I'm sure he gets some of those "unpledged delegates" from MI, but there's a pretty decent chance he won't even need them from a practical perspective.


by zonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Soviet? (n/t) (none / 0)


by Malacandra on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Hertzberg himself calls this a "moral" question.

And Michigan matters because once again you are telling hundreds of thousands of Democrats that their votes might as well don't exist -- that their identity as Democrats might as well not exist -- because of things outside of their control.

The Michigan legislature (controlled by Democrats, yes) moved their primary.

Barack Obama decided to remove his name from the ballot.

And yet, on a cold, overcast January day, hundreds of thousands of Michigan Democrats still decided to go out and excersize their right to vote.

I understand the argument that because that vote was not sanctioned by the DNC rules that it should not affect the process. But I do not understand the argument, especially the moral argument that those voters should not count in a national tally of Democrats.  They are Democrats, they showed up, they did their best.  Everything else is outside of their control, but to deny they showed up, to deny they exist, seems ridiculous, insulting, and immoral.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Why would you advocate breaking the DNC rules at this late stage?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

You seem to have missed this, so I'll reprint it.

For Clinton to even the popular score, she needs to win those three states by a collective 54 to 46 per cent, or 8 points. That's unlikely but not inconceivable. However, this calculation includes the votes Clinton got in Michigan (where Obama was not on the ballot) and the totals for Florida (where no one campaigned). Including these, especially Michigan's, is politically and morally dubious

In other words -- the "national temperature", including FL and MI (and thus, even allocating ZERO MI votes to Obama) still gives Obama a rather substantial lead in national vote totals.

Like I said above - as soon as March 4, we might very well be able to put the MI/FL issue to rest.

Unless the trends in OH and TX reverse course to a substantial degree -- the Obama camp might very well be in a position where they can say, "sure - let's seat FL and MI".  

It would tighten the pledged delegate lead - but Superdelegates aren't stupid - they can still do the math and read between the lines.

If Hillary Clinton cannot overtake Obama even with MI and FL included, there's no realistic way her campaign would be able to swing enough super delegates her way.

In effect, the "morality" of seating MI and FL will become moot...


by zonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

This is not about whether those delegates should be seated.

I am not advocating this because I think it will help Clinton.

I passionately believe that as Democrats, one of our core values should be counting these votes.  Period.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Yes, but what about the "uncommitted" votes - those voters were told that their votes essentially were for either Obama or Edwards?  

What a lot of people miss is that there are actually two different positions that favor seating the MI delegates: 1) those arguing from Clinton's perspective, in which only the votes for an identified candidate would count; or 2) from the voters' perspective, where all votes would be counted somehow, even if only through rough estimates of the votes that Obama and Edwards each would have claimed.  There is a natural tension between those positions which no one really addresses.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Yes -- I agree -- there were hundreds of thousands of Democrats who voted as I said above.

This is not about Clinton or Obama or Edwards.  This about my fundamental belief that when someone shows up and does what they can to express their voice, they should be heard.

I always thought from 2000 that it was a ridiculous notion folks needed to be "good enough" at voting.  Voting is a right, not a skill set.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

If obama doesn't shut her down on march 4th , the spinning on how to choose the nominee at the convention would continue.

Whether it is the supers , popular vote , electability , pledged , big states , little states , red states , even rezko would be in the mix determining who the nominee would be.

obama is within reach in texas if he doesn't shut her down there he only has himself to blame.

when you have your opponent pinned down in the last round of a fight you knock him out.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:56:49 PM EST

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Texas is almost even now, with a 5% delegate advantage to Obama, based on the last election.  The Clinton's only hope is an illegal 527 smear campaign.  Let's hope Texans can see through the dirt as did the good citizens of Wisconsin.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

What 527 "smear campaign" are you referring to? The one that spent $1 million for Senator Obama in California. Apparently the 527's for Sen. Obama are fine.

The 527 announced yesterday for Senator Clinton has only one ad up, and it's positive.


by thetruthsquad on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

Forgive me if I doubt that.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

"Whether it is the supers , popular vote , electability , pledged , big states , little states , red states , even rezko would be in the mix determining who the nominee would be."

Rezko isn't an issue, since the sellers said that the offer from the Obamas was their best offer.

If you want Rezko to be an issue, it is only fair that we closely examine these as well: Everything you ever wanted to know about the Clintons' shadiest donors.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hertzberg: Clinton Can't Likely Catch Obama in (none / 0)

There you go , that would be thrown in the mix , whatever it is regarding the clinton's you are linking to.

My point is if no one has the required delegates to win the nomination and obama lets hillary clinton stay alive.

All this talk about pledged delegates , popular votes etc are just part of the spin each candidate would want to use to claim the nomination.

Last time I checked the rule was that to win the nomination you have to win a certain number of delegates.

It appears both candidates would be short of it , i don't think another rule has been created that it is the person with the higher total of pledged delegates or popular votes absent clinching the required delegate number that should be the nominee.

All of that is spin.

Obama should win Texas or the spinning continues to denver.

And in denver each candidate would come up with reasons to be the nominee.

I won the big states , i won pledged delegates , i have some info that would be damaging if he is the nominee etc.

whoever has the best case might win.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about the vote of Democrats, not Dems du Jour? (none / 0)

I'm a Democrat. My next door neighbor was an independent voter who took a Democratic ballot for a day to vote for Obama, and then re-registed the following week as a Republican so she can vote for McCain.

This will be a DEMOCRATIC convention. How about we count the DEMOCRATS for vote for the nominee of the DEMOCRATIC party? That's what the Superdelegates should do instead of counting independents who voted in our primaries but may not vote for our nominee in November.


by thetruthsquad on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:23:56 PM EST

20% increase in turnout? (none / 0)

If Hertzberg is basing his analysis on only a 20% increase in turnout, it's meaningless from the start. That means Harris County goes from 4% turnout to 4.8%. They could pass that in early voting.


Texas Economics
by IVR Polls on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:41:56 PM EST

Re: 20% increase in turnout? (none / 0)

That is also a good point and part of why I think Hertzberg is selling himself short to shill for Obama.

I would be shocked if there is only 20% turnout increase.  Now, there is nothing to say that will help Clinton.  In fact, the opposite: it will probably help Obama.

However, Hertzberg seems to purposefully game the math to make it look harder for Clinton.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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