Violence on Dailykos

I planned to write about Politburo tactics, self-annointed patrollers and policers on the dailykos website - I think it has become a terrible problem and has severely limited and lowered the discourse there - and then I thought about the shooting in Illinois.

These shootings are becoming alarmingly and freighteningly frequent - isn't this the second one in about two weeks? While these shooters are obvioulsy deranged, I can't help but think that the shootings are somehow related to the volatile, tense climate in the country right now, and to our increasingly violent culture.

There are so many factors, too many to list. Some, to start: reality shows in which we watch people be denigrated, publicly humilitated, dehumanized, "pimped out;" the celebrity media, which hounds people like dogs on a hunt; the internet, where a mob mentality has taken hold, as Lee Siegel argues in his recent book Against the Machine: Being Human in the Age of the Electronic Mob - and that includes dailykos, where the discourse is no longer about politics at all, but rather about "trolls" and "sockpuppets" and "snark" and the like, and where people are bullied, hounded, ridiculed, and humiliated for offering informed opinion.

Certainly not be be discounted for the sense of latent, but explosive anger and the eruption of extreme violence in America as you read this is the Iraq war itself, which is now coming home in a way no one anticipated, but which was inevitable; the total lack of accountability in government; the gross and repeated abuses of power and the war on civil rights; the denigrating of language on the part of the government, the emptying out of langauge in lies and propaganda; the denigration of language in the media, i.e. the use of pornographic slang as if it were aceptable civil discourse; and uncivil discourse on the internet, where people say whatever they want with no repercussions; the triumph of the corporate ethos over every aspect of everyday life; years of fear-mongering and war-mongering. All play a part.

These recurring shootings are one manifestation of this treacherous atmosphere.

But most people -- still moral, ethical, not deranged -- now use the internet to lash out, to express their anger, fury, rage; they use it to say and do things they would never do in real life. One example is the mother who set up a fake profile on MySpace and taunted a neighbor's daughter until the poor girl killed herself. But most cases are much more subtle, not fatal.

To decry an advancing technology runs the risk of being called reactionary - as Siegel points out in his book. I don't mind being called reactionary if it means taking a stand for decency , for taking a stand against violence of any kind, be it physcial or mental.  

I was personally troubled by many aspects of dailykos- there is a violence there, too, and it is accepted and even celebrated - the entire "kos" vocabulary of trolls and snark and sockpuppets and HR'd and TR'd and mojo and so on - the fact that there is a form of person-to-person censorship - if you don't agree with or like an opinion you just "hide" it - and a mob or crowd mentality where anonymous people group together and decide to taunt or harrange a particular user in order to drive them away. It is the worst form of junior high school antics, and what makes it chilling here is that it is perpetrated by adults.

Siegel says: "The internet is the first social environment to serve the needs of the isolted, elevated, asocial individual."

That is the kind of person who committed those shootings today. But something similar also exists in a much less extreme form on dailykos. Asocial personality types who feel empowered to police and patrol, to "troll" people or "disappear" people for no reason other than that they can, or use obscene language and insult to harrange instead of disagree or engage.

Some more thoughts from Seigel: "What kind of idea do we have of the world when, day after day, we sit in front of our screens and enter further and further into the illusion that we ourselves are actually creating our own external reality out of our own internal desires? We become impatient with realities that don't gratify our impulses or satifsy our picture of reality. We find it harder to accept the immutable limitations imposed by identity, talent, personality. We start to behave in public as if were were acting in private, and we begin to fill our private world with gargantuan public appetites. In other words, we find it hard to bear simply being human."

His notion that we "fill our private world with gargantuan public appetities" is fascinating, and applies, I think, not just to the way people shop online these days. On political sites like this one, we attempt to take the whole spread of the country and of the campaign, whole states, mass rallies, into the private space of our homes, our home offices, our bedrooms.  By being here we invite everyone else on the site, everyone who posts a nasty comment, into our homes. And we thus also invite into our homes all the unfulfilled urges, the irrational drives, the negative desires of the masses.

It would be interesting to try to square all this with what is happening in the democratic primaries.

How can the the violence, these recurring mass shootings, be squared with the euphoria and joy people feel watching the Obama campaign?

How much of the misdirected negativity and misogeny floating around the culture is being projected onto Hillary Clinton?

Ecstacy and degredation - the twin poles of our political and popular culture.

The generalized culture of violence will not reverse itself or retreat anytime soon. Not even Obama can stop that.

We need a return to a more civil and enlightened discourse. We need a new enlightenment.



Display:


Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 4)

Did you just equate TR'ing on the biggest progressive blog on the internet to the horrendous shooting in Illinois?  I think you should really reconsider the wisdom of even writing this diary.


by bigdcdem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:17:13 AM EST

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 3)

I reflected, I did not equate. Read more slowly and take it in next time.


by venice1789 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 1)

But why would the shooting cause you to reflect on behavior at Dkos, unless you saw some similarities between the two?

You made this statement:
"That is the kind of person who committed those shootings today. But something similar also exists in a much less extreme form on dailykos. Asocial personality types who feel empowered to police and patrol, to "troll" people or "disappear" people for no reason other than that they can, or use obscene language and insult to harrange instead of disagree or engage."

You may not think you are equating or comparing behavior at Dkos to the Illinois shooting, but this statement clearly does.


by bigdcdem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 06:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (none / 0)

I get it. Go over there and write something nice about Hillary. It IS violence - like a group of thugs who attack someone on the street and beat him/her up. It seems to be the same mindset - verbal violence with the protection of the group.
What would happen if Hillary were to win? What would all these groupies do? Cry foul, is my bet....
by georgiast on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:16:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (none / 0)

Chilling?

They're being trolled.

They look STUPID.

It's the big time, baby, Obama has connections to Auchi, and Rezko, who may in turn have connections to Middle East terrorism, both are under investigation.

This is very real, did you think it was a game?


by Marsha1 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, did you intend to respond to me? (none / 0)

Your comment has no relation to what I said?


by bigdcdem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (none / 0)

Actually, from what I have read, most of these shootings have prescription medications involved. This last guy had quit taking them several weeks ago, and was having a bad reaction according to what people around him said.

I'm thinking this is a symptom of all the prescription drugs people are being encouraged to take here in the US. After all, our country is the only one in the WORLD besides New Zealand that allows drug commercials for prescription drugs all over the place. Other countries have more sense than we do, and just have the doctors and other health care professionals figure out when people need meds for mental illness.


by splashy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:50:40 AM EST

prove it (none / 0)

Why don't you give us a few examples where reasonable pro Clinton diaries and comments have been materially (there's always a few jerks) troll rated or banned and then we can judge for ourselves.  Until you do that, the premise of this diary is pure assertion - and libelous.

I would like to get your opinion of hillaryis44.org.  This site is monitored by a faceless and unaccountable administrator that allows no alternate opinions or correction of lies and distortions but does allow vile language and threats.

         


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:00:14 AM EST

uh, you mean their moderators have no tolerance (1.66 / 3)

for the vile, all-out-attack-mode, community-disrupting tactics of the rowdy, unhinged Obama crowd? yes, you would be correct. Taylor Marsh  does the same thing. I'm glad. Most of you guys aren't remotely interested in civil discourse--but in browbeating and and insulting: case in point, DKook.


Clintonism is the kind of Government I could get used to...
by Mariel on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 08:30:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prove it (none / 0)

Like you, I'm uncomfortable drawing parallels between the verbal violence on many websites and the real violence in which people actually get killed.  

However, I recommend you undertake the following personal experiment.  Go over to dkos and post a fair-minded diary about Hillary Clinton.  Then report back on your experience.  Tallies on supportive comments, negative-but-fair comments and obnoxious comments would be helpful.  You should also keep track of the people who say, "I could never vote for Hillary Clinton."

I'm willing to bet that if you actually make an investment in writing a fair-minded diary about Hillary Clinton you will also come to appreciate the irrationality of the anti-Hillary sentiment on dkos at a visceral level.  Until you have actually experienced it, its hard to describe.


by dbrown04 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 08:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prove it (none / 0)

Most people who try to intimidate with violence, either implied or actual, do so because they're afraid, they're feeling threatened, (fear) they come back with a knee jerk violence, a response, instinctively, to protect themselves.

But if they're afraid of you, you can manipulate them.

People NOT drowning in their own fear are reasonable, we can disagree, but we agree to disagree, let's keep it civil, which, at this point, would be exemplary of ALL the candidates, with the exception of Obama.

Or Bush, I mean this describes Bush, Cheney and the Neocons, too, hence the rush to war, and the fear of terrorism.

The daily kos crowd is afraid, governed by subconscious fears, terrors.


by Marsha1 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:43:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (1.75 / 4)

they behave as fashists - eliminating anybody who disagreed with them.

when I posted a few anti-obama diaries and pro-Hillary comments they simply banned me
and disabled my ability to post comments and diaries.

They are not liberal at all, they aggressive virus, which could potentially destroy democracy in our country.
They behave as militant part of Obama campaign and as areal Cult of Personality for him.

I hate most of obamakos posters and I think that
Mr. Markos Moulitsas Zúniga is very guilty lately.


by WeNeed3rdParty on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:33:43 AM EST

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 3)

I agree with you 100%. I was shocked at the treatment there. It isn't progressive at all - and the tactics they use to "monitor" are anti-democratic.


by venice1789 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 08:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Beware the circular firiing squad (none / 0)

I haven't experienced that kind of banning there, but I'm not a frequent poster.

Question... a real question, not a debative one...

Markos has committed to support the Dem candidate, and has said (back when Edwards was in the race) that "we have 3 great candidates."

To be honest, that's more gracious than I've seen from many "recommended" Clinton posts here on MyDD.

Isn't the problem that both sides of the Obama/Clinton blogosphere are getting unnecessarily harsh? Given that the tone between the two candidates is more or less civil, I'm surprised to see how ugly it's getting online.

Seems we're always at risk of the circular firing squad

by PhilFR on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Beware the circular firiing squad (none / 0)

you cannot be harsh enough on gangsters. And obamaniaks really THAT bad.


by WeNeed3rdParty on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Smart diary. (1.66 / 3)

really good, profound stuff. Way too over the top and cerebral for the the Obamabrats, however. I wonder if Markos cares or even realizes how the reputation of his blog is going down the toilet at a staggering rate this election season. Nah, don't think he gives a fuck that misogynistic little twerp.


Clintonism is the kind of Government I could get used to...
by Mariel on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 08:24:14 AM EST

Re: Is he "Renting" the blog out (2.00 / 1)

Dkos needs a win.

They haven't gotten behind a winning Presidential candidate yet.  Not in the primaries and not in the general.  When Edwards was still in the race, he was the overwhelming favorite at dkos.  Once Edwards left and Obama started looking like a winner, dkos was all over him.  The weird part of it all is that Hillary has actually been the candidate that has taken up most of the issues so dear to Edwards' heart.

Purely from a ideological point of view it doesn't make sense for the Kossacks to get behind Obama.  Clinton is closer to Edwards in terms of her political positions and the Kossacks seem to favor the old style of "politics of personal destruction."

That's leads me to the conclusion that Kos' position is purely tactical.  He needs a win.


by dbrown04 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is he "Renting" the blog out (2.00 / 1)

wow, interesting take. I hadn't thought of that. I was just amazed at how fast the site went downhill. It was like being a hobbit and entering into an ork den! and the groupthink there was scary as hell. its at the point now where if you still have something nice about Edwards you get "troll" rated or "disappeared."


by venice1789 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:10:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 1)

I've actually had the same experience here.  I posted a comment at daily kos a couple of weeks ago and then did a diary on the same topic here.  I got the same response to the comments as to the diary, virtually word-for-word.  There are a lot of people who seem to spend an awful lot of their time trolling for anti-Obama text.


by dbrown04 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:11:32 AM EST

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 2)

The crowd won't calm down until Obama loses the general election. Then it will be a mass blood letting.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:16:17 AM EST

Re: Violence on Dailykos (2.00 / 2)

I have always liked this blog because the people running it strike a mature tone.  Kos, I believe, does the opposite, and has found a like-minded following.


by Larissa on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:23:21 AM EST

How do you explain the fact (none / 0)

that, for example, Alegre, a prolific diarist who is a strong supporter of Clinton, has diaries that appear on the Recommended List at DailyKos?

So not only has she not been banned at DailyKos, but her diaries enjoy large readership via the Recommended List.

I'm sure there is bad behavior at DailyKos, as at all blogs that have a large degree of freedom of speech, but that's the nature of the blog.

Dissenting points of views are certainly allowed by Markos. As has been pointed out, while he was in the race, supporters of John Edwards were dominant at the site. But Kos himself was adamantly opposed to Edwards because of the campaign's support for public financing.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:18:08 AM EST

Re: Violence on Dailykos (none / 0)

We need a return to a more civil and enlightened discourse. We need a new enlightenment.
Studies have shown (sorry, no link) that the way that we commnunicate now through blogs and forums will indeed lead to a degradation in our socialization skills with repercusssions on how we treat one another.

Mydd was, by far, my favorite blog. But now, it's simply a hotbed of Obama-bashing and people desperately posting every shred of news that sounds even remotely good for HRC. I don't have a problem with people supporting Hillary but the comments I've seen from HRC-supporters are so juvenile, immature and hate-filled that this site more resembles a video game forum to me where teenagers hang out.

But I'm not giving up on Mydd. I will wait until after the election. If either Barack or HRC win, all the "spew" will go away. But we really need to elevate the dialogue through "self-policing". If you see comments that are disgusting and juvenile (for either side), we need to let that person know they need to more maturely express their opinions.


by desertjedi on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:30:17 AM EST

Sprezzatura? (none / 0)

Is that you, Lee?

Heyy-o!


by seand on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:05:00 PM EST


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