Wisconsin, 3 days out

I've been delving into Wisconsin a bit, and does it ever look unpredictable. First, the polls. According to Pollster.com, there have been 5 different polls taken in WI since the 10th (one poll has two models), and after taking out the outliers showing either Clinton or Obama up by 10 percent or so, we have these 4 polls taken this week:
	    10th    11th    13th     14th


Obama	    45	    46	    47	     47
Clinton	    41	    42	    43	     42

Undecided   14	    12	    10	     11
First, there's not been a discernible movement for either candidate. To go from a 4 point to a 5 point lead over 4 days, with 2 days of having a 4 point lead in-between, means the margin is pretty static. The number of undecideds has down-ticked a bit, but its still quite large. In fact, it's the undecideds that point toward the great mystery in this race-- who they will break for in the end; and, there's also opportunity in Wisconsin for movement among the candidates-- especially in the last 3 days.

Just look at the 2004 polls. None of them show Edwards in the picture. The primary was on Feb 15th. On the 14th, Zogby had it Kerry-Dean-Edwards at 47-23-20. On the 12th, ARG had it Kerry-Edwards-Dean at 56-16-11, and there were other earlier polls. The actual result was Kerry-Edwards-Dean at 40-34-18, but for a long time in the evening, I recall, it looked like Edwards had pulled off an upset. Only later in the night did Kerry pull a way a bit, after the big city returns came in.

How Edwards surged was that --looking in the exit polls-- 40% of the voters made up their mind in the last 3 days before the election, and they broke to Edwards by more than 50 percent, most switching from either Dean or Kerry to Edwards. Here was the post-election WI wrap of '04:

Dean emphasized his honesty and zeal to stand up to President Bush while he slammed Kerry, singling out the four-term senator's relationship with special interest groups.

"My question to Wisconsin is, 'Who do you want to stand with you in the foxhole, the guy who'll stand up when it's right or the guy who just stands up when it's popular?'" Dean said, repeatedly disparaging Edwards and Kerry as "Washington insiders."

But the former governor never regained ground, finishing third in the state primary. He ended his presidential bid a day later.

Edwards stopped short of calling Wisconsin his own must-win state, and although he did not campaign there much until the week before the primary, he apparently realized he might have a chance for a good showing.

Going back further, but here's a great read on the '88 race, that Chris Bowers posted, in the NYT's. Going in, Jackson was coming off of a bunch of wins in the south, and campaigned hard against Dukakis. The turnout was over a million voters, which I think will be bested this year (~850K turned out in '04):

The Wisconsin results brought Mr. Dukakis 44 delegates, Mr. Jackson 24, Mr. Gore 13. That left the New York Times delegate tally showing Mr. Dukakis with 722, Mr. Jackson with 684, Mr. Gore with 381, Mr. Simon with 166 and 483 undetermined. It takes 2,082 to nominate.
After that race, Simon dropped out. Jackson, at this point in the race, was positioning for Vice-President:
''Of the 40 contests that have been run now, I've come in No. 1 or No. 2 in 30 of them and I have a 250,000-plus popular vote lead,'' Mr. Jackson said in an appearance on ''CBS This Morning.'' He added, ''At this stage of the campaign, I feel very good.''

Democrats in Wisconsin, backed by the findings of polls, said that Mr. Jackson failed in the final days of the campaign as voters focused on him not as a civil rights leader who gave moving speeches about the dispossessed, but as a potential Democratic nominee and President.

The New York Times/CBS News Poll, for example, showed that Mr. Jackson did much worse among voters who decided on their choice in the final four days of the campaign than among those who said they had decided earlier. Mr. Jackson won only 20 percent of the late decider's, as against 31 percent of those who said they had made their minds up before Saturday.

Among the 14 percent of Republicans that voted in the Democratic primary, they split 42 percent for Dukakis, 26 percent for Gore, and 22 percent for Jackson.

Movement toward Edwards, and away from Dean & Kerry in the final weekend of '04; movement toward Dukakis and away from Jackson in the final weekend of '88. I don't think either of those races tell us much about whether Clinton or Obama gets the movement, but it's highly likely that one of them will.

The other thing I was trying to look into, but have come up pretty inconclusive so far on, is looking at the '08 exit polls in states that have already voted, preferably a primary. Maybe it's like Iowa, but with a primary instead of a caucus, and about 5% more African-Americans.

Wisconsin is a very savvy primary state, and they have the potential to move in hordes, a few days before the vote.



Display:


Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

didn't you get the memo, mentioning Jesse Jackson in any way is an attempt at putting down Obama historic wins.


by gomer on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:37:31 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

RCP had this good article questioning Obama's ability to close out contests. Evidently, late deciders have been breaking for Clinton, so if the trend continues and the late deciders move en masse towards one candidate, we may be in for an upset on Tuesday. Here's part of the article by  Arnon Mishkin.

<Exit Polls in New Hampshire show that Sen. Obama lost there because last-minute deciders, roughly one fifth of the electorate, chose Hillary Clinton 39 to 36. They were conflicted by two candidates they liked...and opted for the safety of experience over the risk of change.</p>

On Super Tuesday, the trend was more pronounced. Sen. Obama surged over the weekend, according to the exit polls, but Hillary got 60% of the people who decided in the last 24 hours. If Sen. Obama had gotten their support, his vote would have gone up by 6 points.>


by katrinareyes on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:52:27 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Yea, in NH, that was definitely the case, and the same with MA and a bunch of other states. The only primary case I see that goes counter to that is MO, where Obama did pick up the last 3 days slightly, and he did so in LA as well, both primary states, but nothing like Clinton did in primaries like NJ and others. Although, in MD & VA, it was Obama that won the 3 days out, Clinton the day of...

The other thing that I would note is that WI is going to be very different than '04 in the gender vote. It was 52-48 W/M in '04, but will be upper 50's to lower 40's in '08 (Obama's dumb "periodic" dump on Clinton was boneheaded in that regard).

But I can't tell who wins the late swap this cycle. I didn't get too much into the '92 campaign yet, but this article a few weeks out, about Brown & Clinton,  with Clinton ahead, 49 percent to 35 percent...

Wisconsin's primaries in the past have often generated considerable drama. In 1960, John F. Kennedy held off Hubert H. Humphrey here, even though Mr. Humphrey came from neighboring Minnesota, and established his national credentials. In 1976, Morris K. Udall came within a hair's breadth of beating Jimmy Carter and robbing him of momentum at a crucial moment. Four years ago, the Rev. Jesse Jackson drew big crowds at Serb Hall and elsewhere on Milwaukee's heavily blue-collar, central European South Side, raising vain hopes that he was putting together a biracial working-class coalition.
"I got involved with Jerry Brown because I think this campaign is psychotherapy on a national cultural scale," Mr. Belknap said.


haha.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Past performance:
4/3/1984: Hart 44.4%, Mondale 41.1%, Jackson 9.8%, McGovern 1.6%, Glenn 1.0%
4/5/1988: Dukakis 47.6%, Jackson 28.2%, Gore 17.4%, Simon 4.8%, Gephardt 0.8%, Hart 0.7%
4/7/1992: Clinton 37.2%, Brown 34.5%, Tsongas 21.8%, Uncommitted 2.0%, Harkin 0.7%, Kerrey 0.4%
by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:30:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

In how many ways can Jerome say he thinks Hillary has a shot in Wisconsin?


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:52:46 AM EST

not in as many ways you prove you need a life (none / 0)

Actually, I don't know which way it goes.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not in as many ways you prove you need a life (none / 0)

Hillary please God Hillary =)


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:27:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

As always (except on the blogs), Hillary wins the expectations game. When did Wisconsin become a slam dunk for Obama, anyway? Has anyone seen a poll this year in Wisconsin showing him significantly ahead? Most was 11, but others have been mid single digits. It may be too late to matter, though, if Obama wins by even a little.


by demfromnj on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:08:09 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Even that one that was 11, was the one that had two set of numbers. The 11% turnout was PPI saying that young people would turn out high (which, when they do, doesn't show them going overwhelmingly to Obama anyway, see MA & NH), and second, a high black vote. But I tend to believe that turnout will be up across the board, so that poll is really an outlier, maybe even moreso than ARG, or else a good omen for Obama, if he really does have youth in large numbers. I gotta think though, that Madison women, Tammy Baldwin & the Lt Gov Lawton, are going to show huge numbers for Clinton.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:24:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

So then Jerome, can you figure out why this state was considered an Obama slam dunk, even before Super Tuesday? It doesn't even have the high African American vote. In fact, your research shows that Wisconsin is a really hard to predict state. Somehow, though, it's Obama's all the way and Clinton may "steal" it from him. I don't get it, other than that the Clinton camp is masterful at expectations (maybe the only thing it has mastered since Nevada).


by demfromnj on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:33:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Well, for starters, Clinton probably knows that its the last days movement that matters, and knew that if she headed for Texas and Penn said "March 4th" that the media would sucker for her writing it off.

The media loves a narrative, and they want a comeback story, even if its close.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Thanks for the replies


by demfromnj on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:41:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Actually, I think that all Kathleen (Falk, our county executive here in Madison's Dane County), Tammy, and the LG need to do is keep Obama from running away with the Madison-area.  Obama will post good numbers in Milwaukee and the suburbs, but they are largely unorganized.  

The real battle is in the Fox Valley, where white, working class Dems dominate the primary electorate.  If Clinton runs up numbers here and picks up wins in Bill's Mississippi River old stomping grounds and wins the Fox Valley, she has a real shot (provided the Dane County vote doesn't get too heavy for Obama).

This primary is heavily weighted to white working class voters and women (about 55% of the gender breakdown or more historically).  Hillary has a real shot now that I didn't expect two weeks ago.

Young voters showed up IN FORCE in 2006, a midterm, and they are better organized than at any time that I know of here in Wisco.  They will be strong for Obama, but you can't discount Clinton in that mix this time around.  I've seen rough parity for Obama and Clinton on-campus in terms of organization (though Obama has a clear edge in numbers and enthusiasm).

I bet Obama pulls out a squeaker.

I say this all as the Chairman of the 2nd CD Democratic Party, someone who was heavily involved with the Edwards campaign here, and generally running in a lot of overlapping and non-overlapping progressive circles.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama pulls out a squeaker. (none / 0)

My guess too right now but the next 3 days will tell. Is it Milwaukee that comes in with the late ballots (like what happened in the '04 primary)?


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama pulls out a squeaker. (none / 0)

Usually the big urban precincts come in late.


by jlk7e on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Where do the independents who have no reason to vote for McCain figure in to the calculations?

This is not meant to be snarky. What is the percentage of Ind. voters in WI these days?


by swarty on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:32:22 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Bigger than most states.  But it's tough.  We don't generally register by party (I'm a Dem elected official in the party, and I think I'm still technically registered as an independent).

Indies here are like that nationally right now - they self identify as indy, but lean very Democratic.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Specific details about WISCONSIN elections (none / 0)

It almost seems in poor taste, to mention local traditions and law, but I can't help myself.

In the first place, there is ABSOLUTELY no partisan registration in Wisconsin.  Not only that, the primary in which you vote is completely secret - no record is ever made of it.  As far as I know, it's the only state with an exemption from the DNC allowing a binding primary without requiring the voters to make any statement of political allegiance.  This exemption is rooted in the historic fact that Wisconsin INVENTED publicly-paid-for primary elections, whose rules changed as they spread to other states.  More than in any other state, Republicans are free to vote in the Democratic primary, and face no incentive whatever to stay in their own.

Second, Wisconsin has virtually NO absentee voting, and no early voting.  Other than residents of nursing homes and members of the armed forces, there isn't any streamlined provision for applying for an absentee ballot.  State law states the right to vote is sacred, but not a right to vote by absentee ballot.

Third, Wisconsin has an extremely strong tradition of election-day registration.  For all practical purposes, "voter registration" doesn't exist - you just show up at the proper polling place, and they either find your name already on the list, or they add you to it.  (Until two years ago, there was no general requirement to register to vote AT ALL.  In small towns, they didn't even have election day registration - they just had "election day voting".  I never met anybody other than lawyers who were aware of the oddity - voters just assumed they must have registered at some point.)

As a result, young people, especially college students, can turn out to vote in very large numbers, if a campaign engages them.  A precinct on one of the UW campuses that sees a dozen voters in a quiet local election, could easily turn out TWO THOUSAND if the campaign catches their fancy.

My guess is the turnout in the Democratic primary will be around 800,000, and that Obama will win comfortably.

Wisconsin is a very interesting state, and a good example of the point that each state's election system is different and that those differences often matter.


by Grebner on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 04:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Specific details about WISCONSIN elections (none / 0)

Interesting insight on Wisconsin practices.  Do newspaper endorsements in that state carry any particular weight?  I read this morning that a major newspaper in Milwaukee endorsed Obama


by ruskin on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Newspaper endorsements (none / 0)

I don't think editorial page support plays any unusual role in Wisconsin.  Neither of the two major papers (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, and the Madison State Journal) is regarded as the voice of a progressive community.  That is, they have their opinions, and other people have their own.

The one paper that carries some clout is probably the very small Madison Capital Times, which is adorably leftist.  A good measure of the CapTimes reach is that it has just announced that it will be the first "major" newspaper in the US to give up its dead-tree edition completely, and will soon exist only on the Web.

I think everybody on the Democratic side in Wisconsin feels good about Obama.  The only variable is how they feel about Hillary.


by Grebner on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Specific details about WISCONSIN elections (none / 0)

"Second, Wisconsin has virtually NO absentee voting, and no early voting."

I lived in Wisconsin from 2004 to 2007, and I, along with many, many other people, voted early for the '04 and '06 elections in Milwaukee.


by Bromius on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 04:56:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Absentee voting (none / 0)

It's certainly possible to vote by absentee ballot in Wisconsin, and the number of people who do so in a typical election may be comparable in size to the crowd at Packers games, but compared to other states, Wisconsin lags.

There are NO early voting sites for example.  Each voter must personally request absentee ballots in writing, and the application is good only for a single calendar year.  In contrast to most states, an absentee voter in Wisconsin needs to have a witness sign the back of the ballot envelope.

The statutory language says it all:  Wisc Statutes 6.84 (1) - "Legislative policy. The legislature finds that voting is a constitutional right, the vigorous exercise of which should be strongly encouraged. In contrast, voting by absentee ballot is a privilege exercised wholly outside the traditional safeguards of the polling place. The legislature finds that the privilege of voting by absentee ballot must be carefully regulated to prevent the potential for fraud or abuse; to prevent overzealous solicitation of absent electors who may prefer not to participate in an election; to prevent undue influence on an absent elector to vote for or against a candidate or to cast a particular vote in a referendum; or other similar abuses."


by Grebner on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Absentee voting (none / 0)

Its not entirely true that there are no early voting sites. Its true that there are no sites that are specifically set up for the sole purpose of early voting, but in WI you can go to the city clerk's office and both register and vote early all the way up until the Friday before an election. They essentially have you fill out an absentee ballot there in the office and the clerk signs it as the witness.

And just to be nitpicky, its the Wisconsin State Journal not the Madison State Journal, because Madison isn't a state. :)


by taraleigh on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 03:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

The '88 race had 14% Republicans voting in the Dem primary, the '04 race had 9% Republican, 62% Democratic, and 29% Independent.  That is a big factor, as I would expect they vote heavily against Clinton. They (and Independents) went heavily for Edwards in '04, at 44%, then Dean at 26%, Kerry got only 18% of their vote.

Edwards basically just seemed to show up at the state and voters in WI flocked to him, before then he was in the teens-- a distant 3rd.

The late-deciders, gleaming off of the '04 poll, were issue oriented, not electability oriented, they didn't like Kerry (and probably didn't like his then-coronation), they were older, and liked that Edwards was positive message oriented.

Tea leaves.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

It's amazing how little discussion of policy and ideology we see on blogs compared to the vast amount of analysis and speculation about political polls.

Let's all raise our right hands and say, "Screw the polls, they aren't worth paying attention to, and we have better things to do."


by global yokel on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:32:59 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

ah, wrong blog.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

LOL


by paida on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not so fast (none / 0)

I asked around, and 72%, +/- 3.5%, of the people here respectfully disagree with you.


The Cost of Energy: Higher than you think
by Lou Grinzo on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Here is a look at who undecideds broke for. "Day of" is the % of those that made up their mind the day of the election.

Notice how Clinton did in states Obama won.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:41:20 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

The average was:

Overall: Clinton 46% to Obama 41%
States Obama won: Clinton 42% to Obama 45%
States Clinton won: Clinton 50% to Obama 37%


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Thanks, great research. Is there much difference from this in the 3-day?


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Oh God, Jerome, I don't want to go back and look. I honestly just made this chart. :)

All my numbers are from CNN exits.

I will say, yes, I believe there is some differences.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Yeah, cool chart!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Maybe the margin isn't the key here. Maybe it's Clinton topping at 43. She needs 50 and she's nowhere near it in any of them.


by demfromnj on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:44:09 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Edwards should have stayed in it to get to Wisconsin.  He would have fared well enough on Super Tuesday to have picked up a good chunk of delegates, and he could have done VERY well here.  This is his turf, and we had this state organized like all hell.

And he would have essentially neutered Clinton's advantage in the white working class here.  He would have won the places she needs on Tuesday and would have cut into her votes in other areas.  He would be the kingmaker everyone thought he could be, having knocked Clinton essentially out here, and having gathered enough delegates to put Obama over the top.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:47:08 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

When are we going to get to the point where we stop talking about who "wins" such and such state, and more about how many delegates they need to win. At the point, Clinton has a lot of ground she needs to make up. Winning by a couple points in Wisconsin, Ohio and Texas ain't gonna do it, will it?


by mecarr on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:00:55 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

It will help her popular vote total.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:06:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Yep. If she could win the popular vote, it goes directly to Obama's claim that superdelegates should follow the will of the people.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

So far Obama has out performed the poll's and Clinton has under performed in the poll's except NH. That primary Obama he meet his polling avg OF 37%.

TODAY HIS AVG. IS ABOUT 47. She would need a massive amount of the un-decided voter's to move toward her to just be even with Obama.

Wisconsin has same day registration just lie MN and know one knows what impact that will have on the primary.

The problem in looking at past performances is that all of these contests had more than one candidate, this one doesnot.

Young people have come out in droves for Obama AND I see no reason to expect it to be any different this time.


by BDM on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:11:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

In primaries, there's often the nasty choice between the candidate YOU like the best  and the candidate you think has the best chance of defeating the other party.

So if you're still for Hillary, is it because:

1) You disagree with the current conventional wisdom/polling that gives Obama a drastically better chance against McCain and much longer "coat tails"?

or

2) You find Hillary to be so preferable on issues or perceived ability to be successful if elected that you're willing to take a bigger chance on winding up with McCain?


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:09:55 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Or you are from the center of the party and the distance to McCain is less than the distance to the Obama/Dean/Pelosi/Kos party machine.

Thats part of why I am considering voting for McCain.  I am just not having this anti democratic BS from Dean we can't wait to count all the votes or Obama we shouldn't count all the super delegate votes or Pelosi when we do count all the super delegate votes make sure you don't take Florida into account


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Okay, fair enough. You're definitely more interested in issues that you are in making sure McCain doesn't win.

So, from your point of view, as a centrist, what are the issues where you prefer McCain to Obama/Dean/Pelosi/Kos?

And, although it won't affect your own vote, do you agree that Obama appears to have a drastically better chance of beating McCain in the general that HRC?


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:46:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Casting your vote (none / 0)

I would say going into Super Tuesday many had to decide if they were going to vote by principle or calculation.

Now, 11 days later Wisconsin voters are seeing very different candidates and their campaigns. I am wondering if their votes are going to be cast to the one they see as the winner.


by Lizzy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 04:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

The way the polls are shaking out points to a victory for Hillary.

She is going to be in the state the next three days, and the electorate will be able to hear her specific proposals. Up to now, they have been exposed to Obama's empty rhetoric. People want to hear about how candidates will solve problems, not empty promises made in speeches. This will swing the momemtum to Hillary with all of those who still haven't decided.

Also, Chelsea has been campaigning at the colleges, so look for Hillary to cut into Obama's base of support, which is the youth vote.

Finally, I think the people of Wisconsin will come to understand that Obama is afraid to debate Hillary because he doesn't have any specific proposals other than to tell people that he'll bring change and to have hope. The voters were entitled to hear the candidates debate, and Obama ran away.

My prediction - Hillary will take Wisconsin 53-47.
This will be a big shot in the arm for her as the campaign then focuses on Texas and Ohio. And Obama has committed to two debates before then, and his lack of substance will be exposed.

We need to forget about all that is happened up to this point. The nomination process starts right now and Obama will not be able to fool people with his empty rhetoric any longer. Hillary's campaign has made it quite clear that enough is enough.


"For 15 years I have stood up against the right-wing machine and I've come out stronger." ~Hillary Clinton
by EightMoreYears on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 06:41:05 AM EST

in the state the next three days... (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's presence in Texas and Ohio has been noted by many of my friends and family here in Wisconsin.  That, and her running negative ads challenging Obama for not debating in Wis while he's here and she's not, have turned most including myself to Obama.

Obama has been here for the past week, and has been organizing hard.  Hillary has sent us a very strong message that we are not important.  This is very chilling to those who are running down-ticket, like my neighbor who's running against a Rep incumbent for state senate.  

As for "Chelsea's campaigning at the colleges"... as my brother in law told me, "I don't give a &^%& about Chelsea.  I'm not voting for Chelsea.  Where's Hillary?"

I still believe either would be a good presidential candidate.  But Hil's really jumped the shark with her (lack of) organization.


by cheesehead on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in the state the next three days... (none / 0)

Really?  Seems silly.


"Sometimes government should give a helping hand, and sometimes it needs to get out of the way." Annon
by Edward3615 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:42:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in the state the next three days... (none / 0)

Seems petty to me. There are lots of super Tuesday and other primary states that never see a candidate. Who are they supposed to vote for then?

WI voters normally have the race decided by the time they vote. Why would they not be excited that this time that is not the case?


by americanincanada on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in the state the next three days... (none / 0)

petty or not, these things have a way of making a tough decision easier on some people.


!
by alex100 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in the state the next three days... (none / 0)

I agree. I've heard similar conversations with friends and relatives. My mother (who is undecided) was upset that she wasn't here campaigning earlier this week. Bill and Chelsea were no substitute. However, the fact that she finally showed up this weekend has helped with that.


by taraleigh on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 03:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

I don't think surrogates have an effect one way or the other with voters (maybe Bill would be an exception, hard to say).  Also, I think people generally are going to see through the "he doesn't want to debate me" avenue of attack.    Think about it - low information voters probably have seen various headlines about the Democratic debates, and would assume that the two have in fact debated numerous times; those who are more plugged in to the political process would know that this line of attack is always used by the perceived challenger against the perceived frontrunner.  

Maybe it will be close on Tuesday, but I wouldn't ascribe that to campaigning by Bill/Chelsea or the recent attack ads.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Chelsea's campaigning will allow Hillary to cut into the youth vote?

That would be wishful thinking disguised as analysis.
Save me from these people.


by swarty on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

The Chelsea argument is frankly patronizing, just like Hillary's ad campaign to young voters, it's "see young people Hillary cares-- not enough to actually talk to you, but hey you're not gonna vote anyway." While Obama actually comes and speaks directly to the youth vote.


by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

This will be a test of how negative campaigning works in Wisconsin.

Clinton has gone negative on Obama, making claims the media fact checkers have found wrong.  Obama needs to continue to make the case that this is the divisive politics of the past.

Of course one example of that in is eightmoreyear's post where the poster repeats the Clinton talking point that Obama uses empty rhetoric and has no policy proposals.  

I'm sure the poster knows that's simply not true.  Anyone following the campaign surely must know that Obama has made many specific policies and talks about them all the time.

One wonders why the poster felt it necessary to repeat this untruth.

Just this week, Obama spelled out a series of steps necessary for economic recover. Here's his white paper on economic policy, http://obama.3cdn.net/8f478c5e1bb07ca0b1 _sh1umv2zy.pdf


by mainelib on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 08:19:28 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Can you point me to something that shows exactly what these attacks are?  I haven't seen anything except the "debate" commercial.

--sam


by samizdat on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

mainlib may be referring to (none / 0)

Hillary's new ads, discussed here (with youtube links):
Hillary Strikes Back In New Wis. T.V. Ad
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --Stephen Stills "For What It's Worth"
by vj on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: mainlib may be referring to (none / 0)

You call that negative?  Really?  Yikes, what happens when we start seeing some actual negative ads from the Republicants?

--sam


by samizdat on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 06:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

I think she has a shot and by now, even if she comes in close, it would be good; at least it is not embarrassing to lose by a 20-30 point margin as all the post super tuesday contests showed. Her loses are not unexpected, but the margins are pathetic. For a candidate of her stature and to lose by such dramatic margins is sad and I support her. There are no excuses for losing so bad. Losing 55-45 is ok. But, beyond that, just inexplicable.

However, I think that she will do some good in WI. The margin shall be close, either victory or loss.


by American1989 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:25:58 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (2.00 / 1)

A poster on DailyKos just posted that she has canceled an event in Eau Claire.

What does that tell you?  By the way, Obama is going to be in Eau Claire today.

This information is in this diary http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/16/ 8264/41068/730/457947


by mainelib on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:30:09 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Has this been reported anywhere besides KOS?


by americanincanada on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Yes, it's in the Eau Claire newspaper
http://www.leadertelegram.com/story-news .asp?id=BFQ35PQ7AMo

"Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton will not appear Monday in Eau Claire as originally scheduled, according to her campaign office in Madison."


by mainelib on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

I believe same day registration will give Obama a 10-15 point win.
by supsupsup on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:49:42 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

So, what will you'll do if Obama wins by a lot?


by poserM on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:56:03 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

What will you do if he doesn't?


by americanincanada on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Wisconsin is the romantic state who usually goes with the candidate that inspires the most. They love the newness, the romance of it the daring, which is what Obama is daring to to.  He is daring to make history.
---------------------------------------- ---------------
I am guessing he doesn't want this part of his history to be repeated to our Dems who believe Iraq is our biggest priority.

Obama on Rumsfeld- 2001

www.politicalamnesia.blogspot.com


by darlamc on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:58:57 AM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

This is just another example of Obama thinking that praising Republicans is more important than fighting for progressive values.  New politics after all....


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

A ridiculous accusation.  That 5-second clip was from 2001, before Rumsfeld had even been appointed.  He said that he disagreed with Rumsfeld on missile defense but that that didn't necessarily mean that he was out of the mainstream.  What exactly are you reading into it?  

The lengths some of you will go to spin and twist things is astonishing.  Maybe somebody has a 5-second clip from 18 years ago where Obama says something complimentary about Bush Sr.  Let the hunt begin!


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Ridiculous except for the fact it is a cornerstone of Obama's political philosophy.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:59:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

If so, shouldn't people be able to find a clip that is less than seven years old?  You have to know how weak this one is.  It came even before 9/11.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

I thought Obama's judgment was impeccable.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

???  He's not capable of seeing the future.  Clinton obviously can't, either, otherwise she would have known that the race wouldn't end on Super Tuesday.

You do know that Clinton voted to confirm Rumsfeld, right?  I guess she thought he was qualified in early 2001, too.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 02:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

And we know how much Hillary disagreed with Rummy, whzat with her voting to confirm him and all.


by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

ridiculous comment.

you want to put in your 2¢ on Robert Novak's column that states Hillary's team would like to peg Obama as too "left" in OH? runs counter to your comments.


!
by alex100 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx ?id=718696

This is the biggest paper by far in Wisconsin, and is decidedly not liberal.


by cheesehead on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 10:59:02 AM EST

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

It's more left-leaning than the WI State Urinal, is it not?  What about the Capital Times?


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

It's not surprising that a conservative paper endorsed Obama, he is the Republican thinking class's second choice for president right now behind McCain.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

Don't you want to win in November?  The way to do this is to build one's electoral base of support.


by mainelib on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (2.00 / 1)

Yes.  Winning matters.

I also think Clinton is the most electable because Obama will continue to make silly mistakes, like having it both ways on public financing.

I fundamentally disagree with Obama's premise that the biggest issue facing us is partisanship, "old politics," etc. and that overcoming that is either the way to win elections or to advance the progressive agenda.

Many of the major issues of our times are intractable disagreements over substantive policy.  There is not a middle way on some of them, and on others any middle way there may be compromises bedrock progressive values.

Compromise and group hugs are a virtue, but there are higher virtues.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

I also think Obama is the most electable because Hillary will continue to make silly mistakes, like having it both ways on The Iraq War.

And I didn't even need one of those Staples buttons.


by swarty on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

The funny thing is that he's also the first choice among Democratic primary voters so far.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

All things to all people...

However, you continue to see Clinton do well in closed primaries and among Democrats.  If all primaries and caucuses were closed, she would be presumptive nominee at this point.  Not saying I favor that, just a fact I think.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

Hey, can you tell me when the national closed election is, you know the one in Novemeber where only Dems are allowed to vote?


by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

That's the first I have heard of that. Most media, pundits and experts say that Clinton is clearly ahead and strong with the Democratic base.


by americanincanada on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

I have no idea what you define as the base, but I said "primary voters."  When the "base" singlehandedly wins a presidential election, let me know.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

Well, is your point that Democratic primary voters support Obama, OR that you need more than Democrats to win?

If Obama is the nominee, it will be because many Republicans and independents voted for him during the primary process, not because Democrats chose him.

I am not saying that as a value judgment, just the way it is.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

It's clear that a majority of those who have voted in the race for the Democratic nomination, to date, have supported Obama.  It's also clear that a large majority of those who have voted self-identify as Democrats.  How the numbers break down from there, I'm not sure, but I don't think that crunching the numbers down to that level of detail is necessarily useful.  People who classify themselves as "independents" have a wide range of political views, and may vote with one particular party almost all of the time.  Besides, that just leads into a very messy argument about which votes should count that is bad for the party as a whole, at this time - we'll need many of those people later, so we shouldn't piss them off now.  

In any event, either candidate would definitely need more than self-identifying Democrats to win in the general.  To the extent that our candidates are able to draw self-identifying independents into the primaries, that is likely a positive sign.  


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

Yes, of course.

I don't think you need to make value judgments of who should and should not count in order to understand who is participating in the primaries and caucuses and which candidates they are supporting.


by rcipw on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

Well, since the most loyal Dem voters are AAs I would think that Obama clearly has the ture base of the party.


by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has endorsed Obama (none / 0)

liberal papers endorse obama. Heck, a majority of the most liberal voices in America have come out in favor of Obama recently.

I think republicans being more apt to support Obama has nothing to do with him being "conservative" but with him being a better orator. Moderates like his general message.


!
by alex100 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

Everyone keeps asking why is Clinton not in Wisc.  I want to know why Obama is.  It seems odd that a state all his followers say he will win handily is one he is spending so much time in at the exclusion of Texas and Ohio.  I think he knows that if he doesn;t win Wisconsin it is all over for him.


"Sometimes government should give a helping hand, and sometimes it needs to get out of the way." Annon
by Edward3615 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:46:55 AM EST

Re: Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

Um, because he wants to win?  Both the TX and OH primaries are weeks away.  What, should he be off campaigning in Puerto Rico right now, too?

McCain and Huckabee are currently campaigning in Wisconsin, even though the former could write off the state completely and the latter isn't going to change anything.  WI's next on the primary calendar, it deserves all of the candidates' attention.


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

That's bull. Obama was in California for WEEKS before their primary. Give me a break.


by americanincanada on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 11:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

What is your point, exactly?  Are you criticizing Obama for spending too much time in Wisconsin, or explaining why Clinton is spending less time in Wisconsin?  If Clinton wants to only appear in the state after Obama, McCain, and Huckabee have already arrived, that's her prerogative.  We'll see if it's a winning strategy.  


by rfahey22 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

He was?  must have been for fund raising, because I rarely heard about him being here.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is Obama so scared? (none / 0)

I think he needs to focus on this upcoming state (which could play a relatively large narrative moving into the March primaries).

seems you want to spin this as "odd" and that it'll be over for him if he loses WI. If that were true, wouldn't you think Hillary would camp out in WI for the chance to knock him out for good?

ridiculous.


!
by alex100 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 03:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Problem with 2004 polls (none / 0)

The last two to poll Wisconsin in 2004, as noted in the diary, were Zogby and ARG. We all know how their track records were this year. So, this doesn't really mean that much, in my opinion.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:05:54 PM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

yeah, like Dukakis ...


by bigbay on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:07:52 PM EST

Re: Underestimating (none / 0)

the anti-war vote, and white working class breaking for Obama.

Also, I wonder if the polls are weighted (adjusted) for a huge turnout in Madison and other college cities, all of which are Obama turf.

Misc: Of the four congressional Dems: Two (Moore-Milwaukee) and Obey (up north) have endorsed Obama. Baldwin (Madison) has endorsed clinton, but primary voters know that's political. Kind (western Wisconsin) says he'll vote for whomever his district chooses.

#


by MAL Contends on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:56:15 PM EST

Clinton bailing on Wisconsin (none / 0)

Scaling back resources, leaving a day earlier.

Let the bad press commence.

Her internal polling must be showing she's not gonna make it.

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&a mp;date=2/16/2008&id=35716

SATURDAY, Feb. 16, 2008, 12:38 p.m.
By Craig Gilbert
Clinton scales back campaign schedule here

Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton has scaled back her Wisconsin campaign schedule by a full day, and is now planning to leave the state after Monday morning instead of Tuesday morning.

The move suggests the campaign does not think it can overtake rival Barack Obama here. Obama has already campaigned in the state Tuesday night, Wednesday, Friday, and today. He also has single events planned for Sunday (Kaukauna) and Monday (Beloit).

While the two have exchanged hard-hitting TV ads here, Obama began airing ads a week earlier and has spent much more on TV.

Today is Clinton's first day of campaigning in the state, with an event in Kenosha and a state party dinner in Milwaukee, where Obama also will appear. Clinton will campaign Sunday in De Pere, Wausau and Madison, and is expected to do one event in the state Monday morning before leaving.

While recent public polls suggested Obama began the run-up to the Feb. 19 primary here with only a small lead, the Clinton campaign has wrestled with the tradeoffs of spending time and money here versus the Ohio and Texas primaries March 4, which Clinton cannot afford to lose.

-----

Bye, bye, Hill.


by hrcisthemachine on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 04:00:59 PM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Looks like Clinton has cut her stay in Wisconsin short about a day. One has to wonder why.
http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&a mp;date=2/16/2008&id=35716
by mecarr on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

A couple of people have speculated that Clinton is basing decisions on internal polls that look worse for her than the public polls. This raises a question I've often wondered about; Do campaigns usually trust their internal polls more than internal polls--and, if so, why? Are they just biased in favor of believing information that the information they paid for is the best information? Or are campaigns able to hire smarter pollsters or reach a more representative respondent pool than public polling firms and news organizations can get? Or what?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread; I realize I'm asking a general question, but it seems at least potentially applicable to the specific question of why Clinton hasn't been investing more consistently in Wisconsin.


by slvn on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:15:40 PM EST

Re: Wisconsin, 3 days out (none / 0)

Good question.  I'd like to know the answer, too.  Perhaps it is just that the pollster these days is a highly paid, integral member of the campaign team.  If the candidate didn't put a lot of stock in their advice, he or she wouldn't have been hired in the first place.  But that doesn't mean, of course, that their polls are right.


by Nagual Haven on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 06:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama08 (none / 0)

Have you looked at the guy, man I wouldn't want to debate that, seriously though I'd guess its because he's in a gerry-mandered Red district (I'm not from WI, but that's the reason most clashing representatives can run unopposed).


by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:30:11 PM EST

have you heard of the margin of error? (none / 0)

Oh my god, the level of commentary has gone down here.  There is no meaningful difference between any of those polls (except for the fact that they were all taken by different outfits).  The undecideds ticked down?  They did not move at all!  MOE!

The downward spiral of quality at this site is stunning.


by responsible on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM EST


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