MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campaigns

In as many days, I've received an e-mail apiece from DFA and MoveOn condemning the superdelegate system and demanding that "party insiders" not "overturn the will of the people." In other words, they want some major grassroots pressure to build to force the superdelegates to fall in line behind, I guess, whichever of the two candidates wins the plurality of the pledged delegates when all is said and done.

The language both e-mails use is very us against them, outsiders vs. insiders, casting the villain as those liberal bogeymen, the "establishment" and the "elite." First from DFA:

Super-delegates are a contingent of almost 900 elected officials, party insiders, and current DNC members and they aren't required to follow the voters. In fact, after every Democrat has voted and the last allocated delegates are assigned, super-delegates have the power to overturn the popular vote and crown a different winner.

That's right, if super-delegates don't like who you choose to be our nominee, they can overturn your vote. We can't let that happen. Our nominee must be chosen by Democratic voters, not by back room deals of the party elite.

And from MoveOn:

Who are the superdelegates? Most of them aren't elected--they're state party chairs, retired politicians, and Democratic insiders. They control 40% of the votes needed to win the nomination.3 The reason they exist: to make sure the party establishment approves of the nominee.

I find this a bit amusing, I have to say. First of all, what the e-mails fail to state is that many superdelegates are party activists, who've moved up from the grassroots into positions either within the party or in local Democratic groups. Many of these so-called "insiders" are exactly the sort of people we'd like to be the ones to break a tie at the convention. At the same time, I grant MoveOn and DFA that many are not.

But second of all, let's be serious, no one really thinks these two groups would be launching these campaigns if Hillary Clinton were currently ahead in pledged delegates, do they? These are clearly proxy Obama campaigns at work, which is fine, certainly DFA and MoveOn are entitled to do so, it's just the self-righteous tone they use that I find somewhat offensive and, frankly, manipulative.

I mean, if they were really concerned about fulfilling "the will of the people" at the convention, wouldn't DFA and MoveOn be petitioning the DNC to reinstate Florida and Michigan's delegates to give voice to the millions of people who voted in those states? And really, are DFA and MoveOn suggesting that Senator Barbara Boxer, who had announced well in advance of the California primary that she would be casting her superdelegate vote for the candidate who won her state's primary, i.e. based on the true will of the people she represents, should be forced to switch her vote to Barack Obama simply because he has a few more pledged delegates than Clinton? Senator Boxer's casting her vote for Clinton at the convention, regardless of pledged delegate totals, to me, fulfills what DFA and MoveOn claim they are fighting for, i.e. small d democracy, representing the true will of the people. Whose will is Barbara Boxer compelled to represent at the convention if not Californians'?

But it's not quite this simple. Senator Ted Kennedy came out early for Barack Obama and his state went for Clinton. I wouldn't expect him to be compelled to switch his vote to Clinton either because his state voted for her or because she ultimately ended up with more pledged delegates than Obama; if Kennedy stated his passionate support for Obama early and the system gives him a vote at the convention, why should he be forced to switch for any reason, ditto Senator John Kerry and Governor Deval Patrick?

So, what's the answer? Well, clearly it's not simple. Do I think the superdelegate system is messed up? Yeah, and it may have to be done away with or revised now that it's seen the light of day thanks to this year's primaries, but I do think that if DFA and MoveOn were really concerned with superdelegates' representing the "will of the people" they'd actually be urging elected officials to pledge to vote for the candidate who wins his or her state or district. As for those superdelegates who aren't elected, well, unless one of the candidates actually wins the needed majority of pledged delegates, I don't see how anyone can be compelled to cast the vote that the system allows them to cast for anyone other than whomever their conscience tells them is the best candidate.

Update [by Todd Beeton]:This very dynamic is on display in this CNN interview with '92 Clinton campaign manager David Wilhelm who recently came out in support of Barack Obama. Asked if he would be compelled to switch his superdelegate vote to Clinton if either his home state of Ohio votes for Clinton or if she ends up with more pledged delegates...well, let's just say he trips over himself a bit (h/t TPM.)



Display:


Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Define forced...


by TheKickingDonkey on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:34:01 PM EST

Todd, what happens to the Party... (none / 0)

And our chances of winning the Presidency, if the nomination isn't decided until after Labor Day and at the Convention?

Have you thought this through?

Because we can't really run a unified campaign in just two months, nor will we be able to knit our party back together in any reasonable sense.


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd, what happens to the Party... (none / 0)

This is true.  We need an outcome by April at the latest.  The problem is that the way the math goes, the only candidate who can win by April is Obama.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think many of us... (2.00 / 0)

Have thought this through. But still, we have a problem. What do we do? Do we ask Dean & the DNC to broker some kind of backroom deal by next month? If that's what we want, then wouldn't that undermine the very principle of "small d democracy" that we all cherish? Do we just crown whoever's ahead in the delegate count by March 5 as the "winner"? And if that's the case, then what about the other states that have yet to vote?

You see, there's not really a simple answer to your question.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think many of us... (2.00 / 0)

I really liked Dean in 2004.

Now, however, I see that DFA (which I believe was remnant of Dean's 2004 campaign) which is run by his brother, emplying such tactics, and Dean not doing a thing against it.

Plus, Dean hasn't lifted a finger to stop the sexism the media has thrown in Hillary's way.

It breaks my heart to say that, but Howard Dean is no longer an honest broker.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:11:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think many of us... (none / 0)

nor has he stopped the racism thrown at Obama by the clinton campaign.

i guess we're on the same page on this one. except for the fact that Dean can't really dictate what the media does does he? or did you miss out on the "Scream"?


!
by alex100 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The funny thing is... (2.00 / 2)

...That all these super delegates that Democracy for America is attacking helped put their founder in office as Chair of the Democratic National Committee.

Here in Georgia, I know most if not all of our super delegates and I can tell you that they don't take too kindly to being pressured into doing anything.  In fact, if you pressure them too much, they'll vote against you just to teach you a lesson.  

The actual result of this pressure from MoveOn.org and DFA may be different from their intended result.


by andrewalker08 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:36:38 PM EST

And I do, as well... (none / 0)

This is so ridiculous, it really is. MoveOn & DFA are whining about the superdelegate system being "undemocratic", but they are still awkwardly silent when it comes to the very "undemocratic" decision of the DNC leadership to leave Michigan & Florida out of the nominating process. Shouldn't their votes be counted?

I'd respect the DFA/MoveOn campaign, and perhaps even join it, if they also called on the DNC to count Michigan & Florida. But since they're not, it kinda sorta smacks of hypocrisy.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The funny thing is... (none / 0)

The fact is Hillary can only win if she can get Florida, and this is so much like what happened in 2000. No one believes there was a real vote in Florida. It Hillary and Bush pull similar tricks and both win,then we can kiss the Democratic Party goodbye.


by Fred Poole on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The funny thing is... (none / 0)

What is brownshirting?  I have never heard that phrase before.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The funny thing is... (none / 0)

It means DFA and MoveOn are Nazis...


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The funny thing is... (none / 0)

Wow, how does someone not joke on the hyperboles stuck in their throat?


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 12:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

The winner of the pledged delegate total should be the nominee.  It really IS that simple.  I expect that Clinton's "support the local will" is disingenous because there is an uneven geographical distribution of delegates.  If superdelegates were evenly allocated with pledged delegates, then why would there even be a controversy?

And you have to know the DNC is packed with old Clinton cronies.

Michigan was said by Hillary herself to not matter, I wonder why she's changed her tune.  And she campaigned in FL at eight "private fundraisers."

Win fair or go home.  I'll write in Obama if Clinton wins the nomination this way.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:40:04 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

So, if the end, Hillary had more pledged delegates than Obama, but Obama had more total delegates due to the allocation of super-delegates and he 'won' the nomination...  ...would you write in Hillary's name?


by oaktownchicken on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Yep, sure would.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate (none / 0)

I disagree with not supporting the Dem candidate regardless who 'won', but, and I mean this, I really respect that your opinion is not Obama or Clinton specific.


by oaktownchicken on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

They have each drawn lines in the sand:

He says the supers should ratify what the people voted: the most pledged delegates.  I don't see it as a state by state thing (kennedy/Kerry).

She has drawn her line in the sand in Texas & Ohio.

I still like his odds better than hers.


by swarty on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I find it amazing how much rhetorical crap is coming out of camp Clinton these days, and it's all to keep her supers and donors from deserting her before March 4.  We had better beat her in TX or OH for the good of the party.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

Personally, I'm amazed at the amount of rhetorical crap coming out of the Obama campaign.  Superdelegates should follow the will of the people!  Except, uh, when they have already endorsed me, and then they should TOTALLY POSILUTELY be independent and awesome.  How is that anything other than political opportunism?

Both campaigns are engaging in it.  Pretending otherwise is foolish.


by mgee on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 0)

Note that all of this are coming from surrogates for a reason.  

This would pressure the superdelegates to stop endorsing Hillary and yet they can endorse Obama just fine!  

Since the campaign hasn't pledged anything, in the event that they have more superdelegate, they'd be just fine with it.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Does it occur to Mr. Beeton that if people are told that their vote doesn't count in Florida and Michigan, and none of the candidates go to visit the state to campaign that many individuals might just stay home.  Surely some did vote, but many did not.

Is this an accurate way to gauge the voter's views of the candidates? I don't think so.


by tom32182 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:43:47 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

It's Hillary who campaigned at 8 "private" fundraisers.  Obama simply purchased time on a national cable station that happened to be airing in Florida along with 49 other states.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Obama fundraised too.  In addition, he held a 'spontaneous' press conference outside one of his fundraisers in Florida.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

Both abided by the rules set out DNC regarding this. The both of you need to grow up.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 04:10:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

sorry,

I meant; the three of you.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 04:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

So has the blowhard.

Don't forget to mention the hugely important property tax proposal on the ballot.  No dem voters showed up for that because they don't care about property taxes.

I still like his odds better than hers on this nomination thing.


by swarty on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

      I don't really know what you expect.  MoveOn endorsed Obama.  Why are you, an admittedly biased blogger (bloggers don't have to pretend to be unbiased), surprised when these biased liberal organizations support Obama?  Clinton is now acting like a champion of Democracy because she wants Michigan's delegates reinstated.  But she admitted that the Michigan primary didn't count.  Now Penn and Bill are going around complaining that this and that state aren't important because of...God knows what.  And now Clinton is trying hard to get the superdelegates to secure her nomination even if she loses the pledged delegate count and the popular vote.
     Did you expect us Obama supporters unilaterally disarm?  I think you're just unused to the prospect of being on the wrong side of usually friendly liberal organizations.  What are you trying to say with this post?
Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:45:35 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I think what he said was annoying was right on-- the high brow, lets clean up the process (wink wink) nature of the proposal.

What was transparent, in their call for transparency, was their attempt at portray their call as not a favor to their candidate choice.


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

MoveOn (2.00 / 2)

Does anyone actually care what MoveOn says anymore?


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:45:38 PM EST

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

  Yes.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (2.00 / 1)

These Obama supporters like Wilhelm and Donna Brazile are such hypocrites. They don't want the voters to decide. They want Obama to win. Period. They will say what they need to say and do what they need to do to benefit Obama. At least CNN called Wilhelm on his hypocrisy.


by Alvord on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Um, they don't want the voters to decide?  Donna Brazile's statement was that if the SD's decide (i.e. NOT the voters), then she is done.

And she should be stripped of her SD status for taking a moral stand? Gimme a break.  This is pathetic.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Yeah, we should definitely eliminate the SD's entirely after this election.

I want to see you post with a straight face that Clinton would have done as well had Obama been given a week to campaign in MI and FL.  There is not a single state where he has not pulled much, much closer after getting time on the ground.  You know this.  I know this.  The spinning you're doing for your candidate is disgraceful.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Obama campaigned ad nauseum in California, and did nothing to increase his percentage of the votes. In fact, the longer he stayed there, the more his totals went down. And, no, I'm not talking about his performance in comparison to some poll in November 2007 or whenever, but rather, to his poll performance in CA after South Carolina. Obama abandoned CA when he knew that, for all of his campaigning, his "huge crowds," and so forth, he had no chance of winning, or even cutting into Hillary's lead. That's why he abandoned the field and went to Idaho and similar ridiculous places on the last few days before Super Tuesday, and sent his lame-ass surrogates (Michelle, Caroline Shlossburg, and Oprah) to do his bidding instead.

In New Jersey, Obama campaigned and achieved nothing. Barely 3,000 people came out to hear his tired shtick at the Meadowlands, and he got his ass handed to him at the polls. Same in Mass., despite his endoresment by the governor and both senators.


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

your comments about Obama campainging in Cali ad nauseum is wrong on both accounts.

early voting tanked Obama. A tiny part due to people  voting for edwards but more improtantly due to trends which were heading his way. consider these SUSA polls:

10/12 - Clinton +37.0
12/03 - Clinton +26.0
12/16 - Clinton +19.0
1/13 - Clinton +15.0
1/27 - Clinton +11.0
2/3 - Clinton +12.0
2/4 - Clinton +10.0
Actual - Clinton +9.6

on those who voted on election day, I believe Hillary won by no more then 1-2%.

Spin it as you see fit, but my reality is a campaign that nearly got amputed but held up rather well (Obama's).

or you can take the polls reality (that taking in election day voters


!
by alex100 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:23:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

whoops. here's the rest of my post...

or you can take the polls as proof that the dynamics of the state were moving in his favor.


!
by alex100 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Thank you for proving my point. As I said, let's not concern ourselves with polls taken in 2007, when most voters in CA did not even know who
Obama was. According to your figures, from January 27, 2008, to Super Tuesday itself, Obama, for all of his campaigning, his "huge crowds," his "electric atmosphere," and all the rest, cut Hillary's double digit lead by 1.4 points. The opportunity for Mr. Perfect to run his big mouth is simply not as decisive as his supporters think.
by freemansfarm on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 12:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

no. he cut it substantially more. the math is a bit more complicated then what you just did.

Obama lost by about 2% of the votes cast on election day. Mostly because undecideds and the then defunct edwards campaign voters broke for Obama.

I believe over 43% of votes had been cast prior to the 5th. For Obama to move SUSA polls from 12points down to -9.6 points in two days shows quite a great deal of movement.


!
by alex100 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 01:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

jeez, do you have the facts wrong.

why anyone would accept the idea of SDs deciding a primary is beyond me. That's an issue everyone should be on the same page. if candidate A wins the pledged count and popular vote, there is NO reason why candidate B should win.

The desperation on this blog is troublesome IMO. I used to hold this blog up to some esteem, not so much at this point.


!
by alex100 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they lost me on Betrayus (none / 0)


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they lost me on Betrayus (none / 0)

Agreed. It was wholly offensive played into the GOP playbook.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they lost me on Betrayus (2.00 / 0)

The Dems being spineless enough to not say "HEY WE WEREN'T ELECTED TO REGULATED BAD PUNS" is what played into the GOP handbook.  They should have been smacked for even suggesting that we take time out of the congressional schedule to talk about it.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

I like Josh


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Josh. . . (none / 0)

 . . ."Chin Puller" Marshall can sit on his Talking Point and rotate!


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Moveon did nothing for Kerry.  A pathetic little investment by the right in swiftboating Kerry was much more successful than the millions moveon spent.  sad, but true.


by oaktownchicken on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn (none / 0)

Oh come on Universal.  If their members had voted to support Clinton and they were doing this about MI and FL you would be all over them.  They are advocacy groups and are advocating the will of the overwhelming majority of their members.

I guess its the same reason I have zero problems with the NRA even though I disagree with them on about everything.  Advocacy groups shouldn't be demonized because they don't agree with you.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

David makes a good point that the Superdelegates should have a National perspective, not a State one.  The problem with Boxer's stand is she is basically mimicking the position of the elected delegates.  Her stance would be more in keeping with a redefinition of the Superdelegate role, perhaps as the bonus for winning the State considering the proportional allocation of elected delegates.

But that is not how the SDs were set up.  Unfortunately their role definition is a little hazy, but if you take what David Wilhelm, Donna Brazille, and Tad Devine have all agreed on, the Superdelegate is there to look at the results after the people have spoken, and taking that in consideration decide who is best for the Party.  They are not there to categorically overturn the will of the People but instead represent a safety net if there suddenly appeared an obvious general election flaw.  For instance, let's say a candidate wins the popular and elected delegate total and then before some major scandal breaks which would all but doom us in the General, the SDs could step forward and overturn the election.

What is wrong is this early pledging of SDs by the partisan supporters.  None of the SDs should be pledged at this time, including people who have endorsed like Kennedy and Kerry.  Endorsing is fine, but pledging your SD vote to a candidate is something which should not be done until after all the states have had there chance to weigh in.


by Piuma on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:47:06 PM EST

National perspective (none / 0)

If the SDs were to vote state by state, then the next election would look radically different. The game would be to play for a basically even split in pledged delegates, and all resources would be poured into the states with the most SDs. That would really marginalize red state Democrats, even more than they already are.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Superdelegate donations - follow the money! (none / 0)

Obama has donated more money to the campaigns of the superdelegates than Hillary has.  That might be why he has more right now.  Please note I'm NOT saying anyone is buying votes. But there is some influence peddling here on both sides, and Obama has more money to throw around.

Seeking Superdelegates
As the Democratic Party's superdelegates decide whether to support Clinton or Obama, will they take into account the $890,000 they've received from the candidates?
http://www.capitaleye.org/inside.asp?ID= 336


by dragoneyes on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegate donations - follow the money! (none / 0)

Uh, Hillary has like 100 more super delegates than Obama.  You sure you aren't talking about something else?


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I think there is plenty of self-righteousness on both sides of this argument. Clinton supporters are very big on not disenfranchising the people who voted in MI and FL, both of which were understood to be meaningless at the time except as beauty contests.

This thing is getting uglier and uglier. By the time we get to March 4 the party may be on the brink of a civil war.  That's why I think the superdelegates will step in to quash the fight.

In that sense, this "don't go against the will of the people" argument is horribly counterproductive. In essence, they are saying they want the superdelegates not to intervene until the bitter end. By then it will be too late.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:50:14 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Amen to that.  If Clinton cannot come through in a big way on Mar. 4, and has no remaining mathematical path to the nomination outside of SDs, it's time for Gore, Edwards et al. to step in for the good of the party.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Since when is the definition of a Superdelegate someone who can do whatever the hell they want to.  That is not why they were established.  What is going against spirit of the rules if not the letter, is this early pledging and trying to influence the perception of who is winning before the Primaries and Caucuses.  The Superdelegates were not established to be the first to weigh in.  They are supposed to be the last.  


by Piuma on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SD weigh in last? (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps you should start the movement to get all of SD who have endorsed to retract their endorsements.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Who's calling for rules changes?

This is nothing more than pressure.

The superdelegates are free to vote as they wish.  The rank and file of the Democratic party are likewise free to influence them.

There's nothing unseemly happening here.


by zonk on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:51:01 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

  Hilarious.  
   Transparency campaign = brownshirting.

  It's very telling that you're so frightened that people might come to know for whom the superdelegates are voting.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

    Transparency is not brownshirting.  Chris isn't trying to make the rules, he's trying to make SD's accountable to the Democratic primary voters.  Chris hasn't criticized a single damned SD.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:17:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

   Yes, he is trying to help Obama.  Is that brownshirting too?  Lack of self-awareness around here is too much.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

  Brownshirt, brownshirt, brownshirt.  Chris Bowers is brownshirting.  Do you also post these delightful thoughts on Little Green Footballs?

  Oooh, rhetorically eviscerated.  I will Hulk Smash you in return.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

from what I know, Chris isn't a huge proponent of Obama (which makes his blog my favorite at the moment). He's simply frightened at what may occur if the SDs decide the nominee.

I'm 110% certain he would feel the same way if the tables were reversed.


!
by alex100 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

  Hahahaha.  What is it with is?!  Strong-arming for me but not for thee.  As if Clinton isn't strong-arming SD's.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:51:09 PM EST

This has to be the most annoying (none / 0)

part of this whole campaign.

I still firmly believe that we're going to get a "free and clear" nominee well before the convention.  That nominee will need superdelegates to get over the top, yes -- but they'll play the role of making it "official", no more.

We're counting delegates longer and harder than I thought we would, but I'm pretty much at peace with the idea that Obama controls his own fate.   If he wins out, he wins the nomination.   It's that simple.


by zonk on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:56:37 PM EST

Re: This has to be the most annoying (none / 0)

The problem is that the delegate math says that barring any incredibly unlikely circumstances, that person can only by Obama.  That's why you have Clinton herself explicitly leading this charge.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:12:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 2)

The CNN reporter has a great foil for the this bs clamoring for super delegates to follow the 'will of the people.'

Just go and ask all the pledged Obama super delegates if they will pledge to support Clinton if she wins their home state and/or then national pledged delegates.

How many will say yes?  If even a few of them don't agree, then all the air just came out of the tires on this one.


by rcipw on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:56:49 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Nonsense.  That would be like the Republican ballot initiative to make California's Electoral Votes proportional -- you can't do that independently of all the Republican-leaning winner-take-all states.

I'm sure ALL of the superdelegates currently supporting Obama would be happy to support whoever got the most delegates in their state if every other superdelegate did the same (and those who do not represent a state based their choice on the national pledged delegate leader)


by shinybrowncoat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

If she wins most of the pledged delegates then, yes, they will make sure their vote does not overturn that decision...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

Oh, have you spoken to them?


by rcipw on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

The only point that makes is that it's a good thing that the majority of superdelegates remain unpledged.  Does anyone expect Bill Clinton to vote for Obama, even if he wins a majority of the votes nationwide?  


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Hilarious.  Your opinion amounts to nothing more than that the superdelegates, by some random alignment of the cosmos, will choose a candidate at the convention.  It's not even really an argument.  I guess it's easier to poke holes in someone else's arguments than to form your own.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Oh, I believe it.  I just don't see why you think that this is particularly insightful.  Voters will vote, and there will be an outcome?  Deep.  


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

It is called politicking.  

Right now, Obama's surrogates have the more resonant argument on the Super delegate situation.  

Hillary has the more resonant argument on Florida (MI is another matter entirely).

There's nothing sad about it. They are trying to win the nomination.  


by swarty on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Take pity on the superdelegates (2.00 / 1)

As I said in a diary called "A Hand of Poker" a really close election is effectively decided by what the last, most marginal voter had for breakfast on election day.  If Obama and Clinton end up effectively tied, leaving the decision to the "superdelegates" is no more "unfair" than settling a dead-even election by a hand of poker.

Trouble is, a lot of people around here are so passionate about the smaller question (Barack or Hillary?) that they are willing to get all pissy and ignore the larger question (Democrat or McCain?) and stay home in November.  Talk about being a member of no organized party!

Listen up, Barack backers.  Pay attention Hillary supporters.  Put your damn candidate convincingly on top in pledged delegates before the convention.  Have pity on the poor superdelegates who will have to pick somebody to nominate if you can't settle it amongst yourselves.

-- TP


by Rethymniotis on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:59:26 PM EST

Re: Take pity on the superdelegates (none / 0)

Well said!

Let's have a clear cut winner!

I'll support either one... as long as its not done as a backroom deal.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Well, if it's not too early for the Clinton team to pressure SuperDelegates, it's not to early for the rest of us to start pressuring them, too...

I do worry about MoveOn's involvement in this, though... they tend to be very heavyhanded, and it could have the opposite effect that they intend.  Especially now...

It's too early to really do anything about this, once March 4th is decided, we'll have a better idea how things are looking...

In the end, I believe that the SuperDelegates will not override the primary results.  Hopefully, Barack will ammass enough of the popular vote, delegates, and states that including MI and FL won't make a difference either way.  If things are unclear, then it gets messy... but, the party insiders know that if they go with the candidate that didn't really win, they won't really win in November, either.

We shall see... Hillary is fighting this thing until the very end, which is good.  Obama can use this time to prove his mettle.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:59:54 PM EST

Indeed... (none / 0)

I do worry about MoveOn's involvement in this, though... they tend to be very heavyhanded, and it could have the opposite effect that they intend.  Especially now...

...seems like it already has.


by MediaFreeze on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed... (none / 0)

Have you heard anything specific?


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No... (none / 0)

just the CNN interview.

but I think that is significant.

The arguement is untenable.

Whose "will" do the superdelegates follow?

The national will?

The State will?

Their district?

It's a goofy problem...


by MediaFreeze on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 10:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question About The Role Of Superdelegates (2.00 / 1)

Interesting question along these lines in my current diary A Tough Superdelegate Question (w/ poll).

In short, according to the DFA / MoveOn logic, what if a seperdelegate thought counting the real will of FL and MI voters would give the pledged delegate lead to Clinton?

If it was believed by that superdelegate that Clinton would have won the most pledged delegates if FL and MI were counted, should that superdelegate [independent of their personal preference] vote to make Hillary the nominee?

This was originally posted on Dkos. It is interesting how different the results are...

If the role of the superdelegate is to "support the people's choice," seems to me it is then their responsibility to factor MI and FL into that equation.

Since there are no results from those states, it seems to me that it then falls to the superdelegate to honestly and without prejudice (something like a judge) vote for whomever they think would have gotten the pledged delegate lead.

But, that's only if you accept that definition of the role of the superdelegate, and this just points out how ridiculous this definition of the role of the superdelegate is.

For one, it is not going to happen. Superdelegates are going to vote for whomever they want and it will be a bloody fight for superdelegates.

For two, superdelegatges do have a role in the process. Yes it is somewhat anti-democratic, but their are lots of anti-democratic things about our democracy (like disenfranchising FL and MI) and selectively applying absolute standards in some areas and not others is a receipe for chaos.


by MediaFreeze on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:05:28 PM EST

Re: Question About The Role Of Superdelegates (2.00 / 1)

That was very interesting to read the difference over on DK compared to here.

There was a decided prejudice in favor of whatever people thought would benefit Obama, although there were several that were more thoughtful about it.

Thanks for the thought provoking question.


by splashy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question About The Role Of Superdelegates (2.00 / 1)

Probably, just like this blog shows a decided preference for whatever will benefit Hillary, no matter how tortured the logic.

For fellow Obama supporters, you're dreaming if you think Clinton will either give up or play by the rules. She thinks she is entitled to the nomination, that we somehow owe her. And she will do whatever it takes, no matter how dirty, to try and put this "young upstart" in his proper place.


by godemsin08 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I mean, if they were really concerned about fulfilling "the will of the people" at the convention, wouldn't DFA and MoveOn be petitioning the DNC to reinstate Florida and Michigan's delegates to give voice to the millions of people who voted in those states?

The Michigan argument is comical.  Is it a free and fair election when all the candidates are not on the ballot?

If so, would you be OK with W declaring that no democrat will on the ballot in Michigan in the general election and voters can vote for "uncommitted" delegates to the electoral college if they don't like McCain.


by Monkey In Chief on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:06:33 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

We'll see who ends up controlling the credentials committee.


by tom32182 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

See you at the convention.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (2.00 / 1)

Give it up.  When the DNC tells you that the vote doesn't count, and you act based on that misrepresentation, it is not then fair to change the rules and say that the candidate should or should not have done something based on the original misrepresentation.  I'm all for an equitable solution to this problem, but that would involve allocating some of the uncommitted votes to Obama.  After all, Clinton didn't become an advocate of seating these delegates until it suddenly became necessary to her candidacy that she do so.  How you can ignore her hypocrisy on this is frankly astonishing.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

It is telling that you seek to blame Obama and yet you are completely silent on Clinton's complicity in all of this.  So you are against giving voice to the "uncommitted" voters, then?  I take it that that is the import of your post.  If I am wrong, please enlighten me, otherwise I think it hypocritical that the votes of some should be considered while the others are not.

I also see that you completely skipped over my proposed solution, and went right into an argument about how the DNC would be stupid not to seat any delegates.  We are in agreement on that, "my friend," so I would appreciate it if you could avoid falling back on a strawman in your response.  Surely your argument is not as vapid as, "the SD's will vote as they will"?  


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

He was attempting to play by the rules.  It's Clinton who didn't and now we see why.  It's my understanding he would have removed his name from the ballot in FL as well if he had been able to, although I'm open to correction on this point.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

It's a decision to respect the party's decision? You disgust me.


by Nissl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Yes, he should be more paranoid that the rules will be changed at the last minute to suit another candidate who, at the time, also went along with the rules and agreed that the votes didn't count.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Sure beats the Clinton team's snake eyes on not preparing for anything resembling a race post Feb. 5th.  How many delegates has that cost them?

If you you want to compare bad moves, then I think the Clintons are prime candidates for gamblers anonymous.


by swarty on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Is it gambling to assume the rules will not be changed after the fact?  Is it a better decision for elected leaders to disregard rules?  If party rules are so worthless, why not break laws?

You must be awe of the great decisions W has made to  break the law.  He got what he wanted and has suffered no consequences, which by your logic has all the hallmarks of a great decision.


by Monkey In Chief on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 12:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I put up a diary on the Iowa superdelegates (none / 0)

at Bleeding Heartland:

http://www.bleedingheartland.com/showDia ry.do?diaryId=1010

Governor Culver says he's endorsing Obama in part because Obama won the Iowa caucuses.

Meanwhile, Iowa Senate Majority leader Mike Gronstal says he's sticking with Clinton because she won his county.

I would hope that the superdelegates would swing toward the candidate who leads in the pledged delegates and popular vote when it's all over.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:10:17 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I don't think this argument is a win situation for Obama.  I believe the super delegates are not equally represented across the country.  Majority of the super delegates come from more populous states.  May be someone could confirm that. So if Hillary wins TX, OH and PA then she wins most of the populous states. And if they are going to represent will of the people they represent then Hillary will get more super delegates than Obama.


by Opandora on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:14:45 PM EST

David Wilhelm is a fraud (2.00 / 0)

He says one thing, but does something else.

Says we have to pay attention to "the will of the Democratic electorate" but given an alternative scenario (if Hillary won Ohio, or won the popular vote), wouldn't even give any thought to giving his superdelegate vote to Hillary.

A FRAUD.


by Sieglinde on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:16:50 PM EST

Re: David Wilhelm is a fraud (none / 0)

Would that make Bill Clinton a fraud, too?  Does anyone honestly believe that he would vote for Obama if he won the popular vote?

Some superdelegates on either side of the aisle are a lost cause - if you think it's only one camp with these types of partisans, you're dreaming.  Luckily, most have not wed themselves to either candidate and can still vote according to the will of the people.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: David Wilhelm is a fraud (none / 0)

Bill Clinton is promising nothing.  David Wilhelm, in the SAME interview, contradicted himself without shame.  THAT IS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A FRAUD.

What, Obama fanatics can't distinguish between frauds any longer?


by Sieglinde on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:31:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

I have to say - I just lost some respect for mydd.

How can you defend the superdelegate system in a two person race? Yes it would be a way of avoiding a brokered convention in a 3 person race where no one gets a majority. But even in that case the only way to ensure small d democracy would be for a deal or for the superdelegates to vote for the plurality winner.

In this case - your defense of the system is offensive. I don't care how noble a superdelegate is! I don't care if I am the freeking delegate and John Edwards just lost a two person race to Joe Lieberman. For me to vote in any way contrary to the will of the people is on par to the tactics of Bush to steal Florida and Ohio in 2000 and 2004 respectively.

We are fighting for democracy in the country. We can't do so while compromising democracy in our party.


Take Back Cincinnati
by belili on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:22:58 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

If Hillary Clinton had the pledged delegate lead that Obama has right now, this race would be over. That's a strawman argument.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:25:00 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Todd-

I'd be careful about making assumptions about what organizations or individuals would or wouldn't do.  The fact is that the reason these organizations are doing this is only because the super-delegates are actually a factor in the race.  We don't know what they would do if the tables were turned, but I know I would feel the same way.  Perhaps it's because, while I have a preferred candidate, I don't find either one particularly objectionable, but overall the Super Delegates seem like an artifact that we should get rid of, but haven't yet simply because they typically haven't mattered.

I WOULD like to see the Super Delegates go with whoever the popular vote winner is, whether by state or overall, proportionally or in a winner-take-all fashion.  This might mean that Kerry and Kennedy should switch their vote to Clinton, but that does not necessarily mean that they need to "endorse" her.

In other words, they could say based on the popular vote of their constituents that they will vote for her at the convention, but that they still support Obama as a candidate and would like him to win the nomination.  I see nothing wrong with that.


by leshrac55 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:31:17 PM EST

MoveOn and DFA - Will of the People (2.00 / 1)

MoveOn and DFA are arguing that the superdelegates have to vote with the will of the people.  What exactly is the will of the people?  Is it by popular vote in the state, by popular vote in the district, by state delegate count, delegate count per district, national delegate count, national vote count?  So many ways to interpret the "will of the people".


by wasabi on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:31:29 PM EST

wow (2.00 / 1)

This whole SD arguement is becoming a joke.  They are the grassroots activists and they got elected by the state cmte to the DNC, did they not?


The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:38:01 PM EST

My Name Is David Wilhelm (2.00 / 1)

And, um, um, and um, prominent consideration, compelling, Barack Obama rather substantial lead, superdelegate allocation preference for Hillary Clinton, best interest of the party, reflects will of the Democratic electorate, coming out.

I'm David Wilhelm, and I may or may not have approved this message.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:38:32 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate (none / 0)

You know, I look at the various defenses of superdelegates and I wonder how such people can argue that Bush's 2000 electoral college "victory" was illegitimate.


by rfahey22 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:49:53 PM EST

Re: MoveOn and DFA Launch Anti-Superdelegate Campa (none / 0)

Al Gore is endorsing Hillary!! Gore will vote for Hillary. He is a super delegate from Tennessee and Hillary won Tennessee by rather a large margin.


by Opandora on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:50:00 PM EST

john roberts rocks (2.00 / 0)

the cnn one.  forgetting this debate for a second on superdelegates, he asked very solid questions ... and david wilhelm sounded horrible in the reply, no matter which side you are on.  that was one of the worst on-air replies i've seen in terms of stumbling over words, going back on what he said previously, and so forth.  (i'm sure there's worse, but that one was bad).


by toonsterwu on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:51:43 PM EST

Re: MoveOn = ScamMovers (2.00 / 0)

I find it ironic that an organization, MoveOn, that touted itself as being the 'clean' democratic alternative; proceeded to collect monies from thousands who supported ALL  candidates, and then took all of that money and prestige and supported ONE candidate.  That is pretty similar to a scam, isn't it?  What happened to the money that was donated by Hillary or John Edwards or Joe Biden supporters?

That is just not right, and I am not even sure it is legal.  If you are a non-profit, you have to stay connected to your original charter mission statement. I know, I run one.

Take Care,  Sharon


Take Care, Sharon
by lanesharon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:57:19 PM EST

Re: MoveOn = ScamMovers (none / 0)

I feel the same way. Too bad, they were doing pretty well until then.


by splashy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 03:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

re (none / 0)

Wilhelm is a snake. He wouldn't even be a superdelegate and no one would give a damn what he thinks without one man: William Jefferson Clinton.


by rossinatl on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:16:45 PM EST

Re: re (none / 0)

So he owes loyalty to Hillary? Where are we? The Politburo?

He's not the only one switching teams.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gXjTo GnNHp5pOXGvB6BawqOoxAswD8UQDLV00  

There will be a gaggle of traitors in the next month or so.


by swarty on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:23:40 PM EST
[