Texas: What Firewall?

Glenn's run a lot of campaigns in Texas, and authored some terrific books. He'll be providing coverage of Texas here, leading into it's primary on 3/4, jerome

I've been asked to shine a little light on the upcoming March 4 Texas primary, the one described by the Clinton campaign and some pundits as Clinton's possible firewall.

But my question is, what firewall? Assuming both campaigns perform at optimum levels, It is all but guaranteed that Obama and Clinton will wind up with a more or less even split of the delegates here, based on the  delegate apportionment process and the candidates' strengths and weaknesses in the state.

Clinton may not lose ground in Texas. I guess that's what makes a firewall. But it's virtually guaranteed that she can't gain ground either. If the national delegate count showing Obama up by 120 or so pledged delegates is close to correct, she'll need big delegate margins here and elsewhere.

Clinton's delegate comeback won't start here. She'd be trying to end a drought with a tear.

The Lone Star State revealed below.

Before you read on, full disclosure:  I support Obama.

But Hillary Clinton remains the only presidential candidate who ever hugged me. I like her, admire her and have nothing negative to say about her. Despite my preference, I'll give as objective a look as I can.

The conventional wisdom is that Clinton has an edge because of her strengths among Hispanics, her support among women, her win in Oklahoma, and Arkansas' proximity. Hispanics may be 25 percent of the primary turnout. Women will probably make up 51 percent or so.

Obama's strengths here come from a fast-growing, younger, more progressive Democratic base with victories under its belt,  and surprising support among independent and moderate-to-conservative types.  The support among African American voters will be strong.

But you've heard all that. Here's what you might not have heard.  I'll start with delegate projections, because that's most important. There a good, lengthy description here.

Texas apportions 126 delegates based on returns in 31 state senate districts. 25 more pledged party and state official delegates will be chosen at the state convention in June, based on sign-ins at the convention. 42 at-large delegates will be apportioned at the state convention based on convention sign-ins [I corrected this this morning based on Glen Maxey's kind and accurate observation in the comments below]. There are 35 superdelegates.

Senate districts were assigned delegate totals based on Democratic turnout in the 2004 and 2006 elections. Here's a made-up scenario I ran just to show how even the delegate count is likely to be, and how hard it will be for Clinton to start a comeback here.

This is a very, very optimistic scenario from a Clinton point of view:

Clinton wins the large Hispanic districts with 4 delegates each by 62 percent or more. This unlikely outcome would give her a 3-to-1 delegate split in those districts. Award her majority wins in Hispanic districts with 3 delegates, splitting 2-1. Award Obama an edge in two African American districts, one in Houston, the other in Dallas. Split the Austin (Travis County) delegates evenly, even though Obama will win Austin comfortably). Split all the other districts, awarding Obama 1 extra delegate to make up for all the African Americans in East Texas and independent and moderate voters in the 20 GOP Senate districts we're just going to split evenly.

How's this turn out?  Clinton, 64 delegates, Obama, 62 delegates.

Then, with regard to caucus-chosen delegates, eliminate the advantage Obama seems to have enjoyed in previous caucus states and say that organizationally the two campaigns are even. Give Clinton the odd-numbered delegate.

How's this turn out?  Clinton 34 delegates, Obama, 33 delegates.  Overall its Clinton 98, Obama 95.

If Clinton wanted to net a a 20-delegate gain, I'm guessing she would have to carry the entire state by more than 62 or 63 percent. Maybe more. I just don't see how that happens.

Still, the contest here will be hard fought. Clinton knows she must keep the national delegate deficit small, and that a popular vote win will help her make the argument, if she makes the argument, that superdelegates should overturn the pledged delegate counts. Also, she's no quitter, and Obama could make a terrible mistake.

Some Important of Fun Things About Texas to Keep in Mind

1.  There are some important and fun things about Texas.

2.  Clinton was a friend of the late Ann Richards, who still has plenty of loyal supporters here. In a funny way though, this advantage may come with a disadvantage. When Hillary hit the national stage, Ann was Texas Democratic women's hero. Hillary was not the presence here she has been in other places.

3.  As near as I can tell, the spin about political friction between Hispanics and African Americans is way overstated, especially when it comes to symbolically important offices -- away from localized conflicts -- like president, governor, or senator. Locally,  Hispanics have elected African American mayors in Houston and Dallas. African Americans supported 2002 Democratic gubernatorial nominee Tony Sanchez by overwhelming margins, just as they had Hispanic statewide candidates in the past. Hispanics overwhelmingly supported Ron Kirk that same year.

4.  Texas is a very expensive state in which to buy effective levels of television. Second only to California. Probably to Obama's advantage.

5.  Early voting starts on February 19. When I managed Ann Richards 1990 primary, the primary race started before the Democratic National convention in 1988. Two years before the election. This one is starting two weeks before early voting. I have no way of telling what the short fuse does, though it probably hands a bit of an advantage to Hillary.

6.  My rough delegate scenario above isn't wildly wrong only because the delegate process is known, and the election numbers it takes to alter an even split are so unlikely. But be suspicious of anyone who tells you what the turnout will be like, and have a little sympathy for exit pollsters, who can't possibly know how to select precincts with any precision.

7. We've never had an election like this. Haven't ever had a presidential primary that mattered. Period. There's no Bush on the ballot here. Texas is moving Democratic. District level campaigns are just targeting all voters. And their children. So, like I said, take pre-election polls and exit polls (at least with regard to projections) with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila.

8. Nobody wants Karl Rove to move back here.

9.  He's not really from here, you know.

10.  Neither is Bush.

11. Yes. My list is louder. It goes to 11. And No. 11 is, I'm very sleepy and apologize for any errors above. But I wanted this to be available in the morning. So there you have it.



Display:


It's more than that (none / 0)

Texas alone is not the firewall.  It is a combination of either Texas and Wisconsin or Texas and Ohio.

Furthermore, your analysis should take into consideration that the seating of the FL/MI delegates is still very much an unresolved issue which could and should benefit Clinton.

If Clinton could at least manage to seat at least either the Florida or Michigan delegates AND she wins Texas and does well or wins Ohio... that is a pretty good comeback for her and it sets up Pennsylvania as the final do-or-die tiebreaking state for her and Obama.


by diplomatic on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 04:30:04 AM EST

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)


By almost all accounts, within less than an hour Custer's force was completely annihilated.  David Humphries Miller, who between 1935 and 1955 interviewed the last Indian survivors of the battle, wrote that the Custer fight lasted less than one-half hour.  The Lakota asserted that Crazy Horse personally led one of the large groups of warriors that eventually overwhelmed the cavalrymen in a surprise charge from the Northeast.

Wikipedia Battle of the Little Bighorn


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

I've been to little big horn.  Pretty cool stuff.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:12:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

Apparently in this Country experience is not required for the most powerful job in the United States. All you have to do is say the word "change" make a few sign and you to can have the most powerful job in the country.  Funny when I go for a job interview they want to see my experience.  Mr. Obama has no experience to be President of the United States and is not ready to be President of this Country.  

People should be very concerned that Americans no longer require experience.

Mr. Obama should be very careful what he wishes for.  This love fest he's having with the media will not last if he becomes the nominee.  The republicans will tear him apart on his lack of experience, his voting record, not to mention his ties to Rezko which the media has not been covering. The media will go for the story and this warm and fuzzy feeling for Obama will be gone.  The media will certainly not attack the "war hero" John McCain.  

I think the next time I'm looking for a job I'll just come up with some cute slogan, have a few signs made and apply for President od the United States.  


by DALEVIC on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 07:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

Maybe a little less "experience" with the corrupting nature of Washington is a good thing... We've seen a lot of garbage coming out of washington these last few years... even our own party is laying eggs with things like FISA.  Maybe a fresh face with new ideas really is in order.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

"maybe a fresh face with new ideas?"

One can't but agree that this idea is just what this nomination has turned into. Apart from the presidency, has public approval of the Congress, the representatives of the people, ever received an approval rating above 50% during the past several years, whether Republican or Democrat dominated.

People are sick of the same old politics as usual, and find in Obama the prospect of change. Hillary is just a throw back to the past, more sales of the Lincoln bedroom, and the same old government by corporation rather than government "for the people."

Hillary just made a tactical mistake by defending taking money from K Street lobbyists, pleading on behalf of the social worker lobby, while trying to hide her contributions from the military-industrial complex, and strangely, after her 1993 experience, her contributions from the medical insurance, care, and pharmaceutical industries. Hillary's universal health care plan is corporate health care at its best, or worst.

The Clintons are passe.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:46:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (1.00 / 1)

Obama has more experience as an elected official than Hillary.

If sleeping with Bill counts as experience, maybe we should nominate Gennifer Flowers.


by antiHyde on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

I have heard this too often to remain silent. Let's compare the total packages of experience of these two excellent public servants.

HRC:

1) While studying for law degree at Yale, she became deeply involved in children's rights, medical and social studies regarding children, became an advocate in child custody cases, and began a long string of publications about children's legal and social status in the US. Also worked as a law clerk at a radical civil rights law firm. On Yale Review of Law and Social Action. Got JD in 1973.

  1. Did a year of post-grad study on children and medicine and became a staff attorney at the new Children's Defense Fund.
  2. Staff attorney for House Judiciary Committee during the Nixon impeachment runup.
4)Moved to Arkansas, became law school professor.
5) Joined Rose law firm, worked in intellectual property field and did expansive pro bono child advocacy.
6)Cofounded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families; appointed to board of directors of the national Legal Services Corporation by President Carter--later chair of board.
  1. 1979--Chaired Arkansas Rural Health Advisory Committee.
  2. 1982-92: Chair of Arkansas Educational Standards Committee.
  3. 1987-91: Chair of American Bar Association Commission on Women in the Profession.
  4. 1988-92 Board member of Arkansas Children's Hospital Legal Services.
  5. 1986-92: Board member and chair of national Children's Defense Fund. Also served on corporate boards, including Wal-Mart, where she had some success in getting some environmental changes, but none regarding union organization.
[As a point of comparison, Barak Obama graduated from law school in 1991, so all of these achievements were before the real start of his career.]
12) 1992-2000: First lady of the United States. It is deeply insulting and misleading to call this period "sleeping with Bill." First, she was the leader of the failed attempt to pass a universal health care plan. It would be stupid to dismiss this experience. In politics as in every other field, some of the best experience comes from trying and failing. You learn faster and harder than from a string of easy victories.

Further, if the writer actually remembers anything of the Clinton years, Hillary was constantly criticized as doing to much, taking over power that should stay with the President. Her office was in the West Wing. She was sometimes called the "co-president." According to those involved in the administration, she read and commented on many of the policy memos, and gave direct advice to the president.

13)2000-present: US Senator from New York (7+ years in Senate). Member of Armed Services Committe since first election.

14) Now involved in 3rd presidential campaign.

BHO:

1)1983-89: After graduation from Columbia, worked in public housing, as advocate for low-income resident and as community organizer.

  1. 1989-91: JD from Harvard Law. President of Harvard Law Review.
  2. Returned to Chicago to run voter registration drive.
  3. 1993-96: Worked at civil rights firm on community organization, voting rights and discrimination claims.
  4. 1993-2004: Constitutional law professor at U Chicago Law School.
  5. 1996-2004: State Senator in Illinois. Involved in legislation on welfare reform, ethics and health care reform, and worked to provide help for low-income workers and support for childcare. He also got a law for videotaping police interrogations.
  6. 2004-present: US Senator from Illinois (3+ years). Member Foreign Relations Comm.
8)Now involved in first presidential campaign.
(Thanks to Wikipedia)

What is clear is that both of these candidates have lengthy and strong commitments to social welfare, having studied and worked in different aspects of social needs over their respective careers.

It is also clear that Clinton's resume is twice as long, and has involved national-level advocacy and service in a way that Obama's does not.

It is also clear that Clinton's White House experience was real and important, if not as an elected official. To compare, if some who had been White House chief of staff (or National Security Advisor) for 8 years and had then served 7 years in the US Senate, that person's whole experience would be taken into account.

I would be just as happy with an Obama nomination as one for Hillary, but this argument that she really isn't any more experienced than Obama (or, astoundingly, has less experience) is just flat out false and should stop.  


by anoregonreader on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 02:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

Of course, her resume is twice as long, she's twice as old.

Your own post shows that Obama has four more years than her as an actual elected official instead of a kibitzer.


by antiHyde on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 02:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (2.00 / 2)

Diplomatic - I don't think it's much of a firewall if you crunch the numbers.

Obama - right now - is about 120 pledged delegates ahead.  He's going to win Hawaii and he's up 11 points in WI.  Chuck Todd's estimate is that if current trends continue, Obama comes out of the 19th ahead between 135 and 150 delegates.

Let's give HRC the rosy scenario and say that on the 20th she's down 130 - five delegates better than Todd gives as the range.

Then comes March 4 - four states - OH, TX, RI, and VT.  If Clinton has an exceptional day, she'll take 20 delegates out of Obama's lead.  Make it 110.

What's left?  You're right that PA's still to come.  And there are a few other states Clinton could/should win, like WV, KY, PR. But there are yet more states, with more delegates, that BHO should win: OR, NC, MS, SD, WY, IN, MT, Guam.  
Adding everything up - HRC is favored in states that have 292 delegates, Obama in states that have 334.  HRC will be lucky if she trades delegates the rest of the way.  It's much more likely she bleeds back some of what she won in OH and RI.

Unless there's a shakeup in the campaign - an Obama flub, most likely - the range of the likely gap as we head to the convention is 110-150.

What about MI and FL?  Well, what's your estimate of the number of net delegates she could claim from those contests, even if they're seated?  The highest number I've seen is about 60 - well short of what she needs.

And please, let's admit that there are real questions about the fairness of seating these delegates.  MI was an early primary in which no one was allowed to campaign, and in which the candidate with a huge advantage in name recognition was the only one on the ballot.  FL was scarcely better.  The Clintons have a long history there, and BHO was never given a chance to introduce himself.  They did win more ballots - but in a setting where it was impossible to compete for those ballots.  


by TL on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Could/should (none / 0)

Hmmm.  I live in PR at the moment and I don't think the prediction that Hillary will win here is all that sound.  True, we are a latino community, for the most part, but with a heavy mixed ancestry of slaves too.  If there are any opinion polls that come out of PR, don't pay any attention.  At the moment, the political discourse is dominated by gubernatorial primaries and our current governor's latest (of many) flip flops on sales tax.  No one is paying much attention to Obama/Clinton at the moment.  I'd say PR is a toss up, but it will all depend on the way the primary is decided.  Roberto Prats and Charlie Hernandez appear to favor an open primary.  I think this favors Obama.  A closed primary or a caucus would probably favor Hillary because the local political machines, which are closer to her, can dominate the organizing.  Assuming proportional delegate splits, Hillary could at best gain 5 here.

Guam.  American Samoa voted for Hillary 2-1.  My guess is that Guam does the same.  

I can't wait to see Indiana results.  Who is closer to Evan Bayh?  Clinton or Obama?  I suppose since 3/4 of the Democrats in Indiana are in Indianapolis and Gary-area, I'd guess Obama wins it.


How is John McCain different than John Edwards?
by The lurking ecologist on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could/should (none / 0)

In Breaking Blue, Jonathan just posted that Anibal Acevedo Vila, the Gov of PR, just endorsed Obama.  Hopefully Obama doesn't take any lessons in government from AAV.  AAV is a terrible governor and is bleeding support right and left.

This is no advantage for Obama.


How is John McCain different than John Edwards?
by The lurking ecologist on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could/should (none / 0)

bayh endorsed clinton a few months ago.
by supsupsup on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 02:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

this is a bit more than delusional.  it's time you start slowly inching toward the mainstream....it's not all bad.  we have a great candidate, a great party, and exciting influx of new fresh faces.


Obama '08
by foxsucks81 on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (2.00 / 1)

FL and MI should be a do-over... and, unfortunately for Hillary, the only realistic way to do it would be a caucus.  The caucus, however, could be arranged in a way which is more like a primary--open all day, vote and go...  She can hardly claim the moral high ground when she explicitly violated the rules and now is trying to take advantage of them.  Regardless, if Obama keeps the pace, nothing can stop him, and I doubt that superdelegates are going to torpedo the party by denying him the vote.

Unfortunately, for Hillary, she is like Salieri while Obama is Mozart...  He's hitting everything right... she's is, too, but he's just doing it better at the moment.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

Vox Populi thinks it will be seated evenly... split right down the middle.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:16:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more than that (none / 0)

Obama has enough of a pledged delegate lead that a worst case scenario in Mi and FL seating (Florida is sat, Michigan is sat and he gets none there) would not give her the pledged delegate lead.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:12:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

analysis of analysis (2.00 / 1)

Furthermore, your analysis should take into consideration that the seating of the FL/MI delegates is still very much an unresolved issue which could and should benefit Clinton.

Why should an expert on the Texas primary, who goes through great detail on how it works and how hard it will be for any candidate to get much of an electoral advantage, talk about other states?

That's like saying someone's analysis of a slam dunk contest is warped because it doesn't take into account how the contest would work if it was on the moon with lower gravity.

This was about Texas.


by Mark Matson on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:48:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (2.00 / 3)

One sorta correction:
The 25 pledged elected and party officials AND the 42 at-large delegates are both allocated by the sign-in at the state convention.   The percentage Obama or Clinton gets upon the initial poll is applied to each group separately.

These caucus delegates are allocated based on 1 delegate for each 15 votes in the precinct for Chris Bell's 2006 General Election vote for Governor.  His anemic performance in a four way race, and almost no votes in Hispanic areas of Texas results in Williamson County north of Austin having hundreds more delegates than Hildago on the border.   Collin County has the same delegate strength as El Paso.

Who lives in these suburbs?  Well educated voters who are going Obama in strong numbers.  Obama has the strong advantage at the convention, and his folks know how to organize.  

It's over.  Obama will win Texas by a big delegate margin.


by RepGMaxey on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 04:37:08 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Also, Texas has this wierd primary + caucus, and we know how poorly Hillary does at caucuses...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Thanks, Glen. I corrected it above.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WI & Education (none / 0)

Boy, not fighting like mad for WI is a huge mistake.

They should be pulling out all of the stops in all of them.

I just wrote up an overview of Hillary vs. Obama on higher education policy.

It looks to me like she has a superior plan there too and she has two things that I think are critical, one is starting to look at Academia itself
to make them accountable for some of this stuff going on and that is really right...our lovely public universities, with state and federal taxpayer money are busy opening up campuses in foreign countries...that's right, forget the fact that American's cannot afford to go and the rejection rates to get in are sky high...

they are busy educating other nation's people.

Secondly, she's created money for part time, nontraditional students and it's about time.

People need to go back to college, get additional degrees all for all sorts of reasons and having everything for just ages 18-22 and assume they are attending full time is absurdly exclusionary.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 04:38:14 AM EST

Re: WI & Education (none / 0)

Newsweek does an overview on Education as well.   They strongly disagree with you.  Hillary got a B- whereas Obama got a B+.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:17:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

reference (none / 0)

I just searched multiple times newsweek for such an article and found nothing.  If you're going to make such a claim link to the reference.  

Newsweek
is ONLY talking about NCLB, period and claims Hillary "just says that" because she wants the Teacher's union.  hmmmm...assigning reasons to statements versus the actual written policy positions and votes doesn't seem the best way to determine where they really stand.

and it's grading from two editors who have their own views on that policy.

I reviewed college, higher education, not K12, from their actual position statements in detail.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 02:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

I think she can come away with some modest delegates....but you make a good point. Even if the delegate count is a wash, running up the popular vote total is important leverage for the superdelagates. If she does squeak by on popular vote...AND there's the FL and MI thing....hmmm. Something crazy could really happen.

Just saying.


by Scan on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 05:18:51 AM EST

Don't Mess with (Obama in) Texas (2.00 / 2)

The analysis that Texas will be an effective delegate draw that you present and that I've seen in other places is pretty convincing.  Texas just doesn't feel like Clinton country.  

Obama's "bigness" should appeal to Texans.  Other factors that are favorable for Obama: open primary and a below average senior population.

Looking at 3/4 only, Texas is more important than Ohio because it has 52 more pledged delegates- that's a big difference (and yes, I realize Ohio is more important in November but we'll deal with that later).  I hope that the Obama campaign goes for a popular vote victory in Texas to influence superdelegates and to prevent any future argument by the HRC camp that she received more total popular votes.  We'll take a draw but a win in Texas would emasculate a possible HRC victory in Ohio.  It's doable.    


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 05:39:08 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

You are forgetting Michigan and Florida. The MSM might say what ever they want MI and FL have to be counted before the convention. If they redo there are 5 states not 3.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:00:28 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

"If they redo there are 5 states, not 3."

Explain?


by TL on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

He's saying MI, Fl, IA, NH and SC broke the rules and moved (I don't remember SC moving but that's cool).  If MI and FL do-over than he is saying the other states should too.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:22:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Thanks.

That argument totally misses the point, of course.  The issue isn't whether the DNC is correctly interpreting its rules - although we could certainly argue about that - it's whether you can seat delegates from FL and MI after all the campaigns agreed with the decision to strip the delegates and agreed not to campaign in MI and FL.

Nobody said IA, NH and SC would not count, and everyone campaigned there.

Apples and oranges.


by TL on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:48:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

That is not what I said. If you want to redo there will be 5 large states left:

TX,OH,PA,MI,FL

and Obama would get his A$$ whipped royally.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "He Hit Me First" Happens To Be True (none / 0)

It may be technically true that Iowa, NH, and SC also moved their primary dates from the agreed and DNC voted schedule. But their moves were defensive, to keep their relative positions at the head of the queue.

Those three states, and NV's caucus, were to be the four small-state openers before SuperDuper Tuesday, one per region. But then Florida's Repub Lege, and Michigan too, decided to buck the DNC schedule and move their states' primaries ahead of SuperDuper Tuesday. They were the aggressors, when they tried to jump ahead of Iowa, NH, and SC. And they deserve the punishment they have been given.

I'm so sick of the whining in the back seat I could just stop the car and slap the brats. Yes, I mean you, FL and MI, spoiled rotten whiny brats.


by Woody on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 03:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (2.00 / 1)

Obama changed the game in VA. He won among females, white males, Catholics, non-college educated, under $50,000, seniors and  Latinos.

Those are the demographics that are supposed to put the big industrial states in Hillary's column and Obama has just broke through and is now expanding his base into her turf.

The Super Delegates will line up behind whoever looks like a winner including the Super delegates who have made a 'commitment' (they can change their votes anytime). Hillary will not win  it by back room maneuvers. If she can't beat Obama in the election of pledged delegates she will lose the insiders support.

She has mis-managed her campaign, her resources, misread the electorate and been out organized, out messaged and out strategized by Obama. She frittered away the massive advantages she started with. Right now he is looking the stronger candidate for the general and she is going to have change that perception with some convincingly big wins.

With a third of the electorate independents it is no mystery why we have open primaries. If you can't win the independents you have no hope to win in the general. The fact that the party attracted so many independents and even Republicans in VA is a great sign of strength and bodes well for November.

If everyone is really concerned about the will of the people of FL and MI then the DNC should finance primaries (not caucuses) in April or May. Nations call elections and hold them in 4 weeks so this could be done if there is the will to do it.

Let the candidates campaign, let the people know their vote will be counted and then we shall see what the will of the people in these states really is. That's if you really want all the voters voices heard. I guarantee that the results will be different when everyone knows their vote will be counted and the candidates get to make their case.


by hankg on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:21:07 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

I've no idea why she kept Mark Penn on.

Mr. "$4.5 million in billings and counting" should have been heaved overboard after Iowa.


by Bush Bites on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (2.00 / 2)

It's because she bought into the strategy of all the over paid Democratic consultants who have been loosing election after election. It's not much different then Roves strategy, you get out your base and then you get one or two swing states and win with 50 + 1. Howard Dean was ridiculed for proposing a 50 state strategy, especially by Clinton insiders like Carville abd Begala. Obama is vindicating Deans vision.


by hankg on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:07:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

I love the 50 state strategy.  Look how excited some of the primary states got when THEY actually got to participate (which was the same for me, although my state was a forgone conclusion) in the process.  They really got excited when Obama or Hillary Visited.  Look at Nebraska, the SD there said he won't support a candidate unless they make an appearance in the state.  Obama did and got the SD.  

I have no delusion Obama will carry a state like Utah or Idaho or Alaska in November.  But two things... the closer he makes the vote, the bigger the popular vote is allowing a big mandate claim... second, it forces McCain to spend more money and to campaign in more states something I'm betting he won't want to do.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:09:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

If a back roomm deal is made by the super delegates or to count Michigan and Florida although everyone agreed that they violated they rules and would not count,  then I will take a walk on this election.  If Hillary can win in the contested states fair and square that is one thing but by back room bartering against the wishes of the majority of Demo voters or counting states that violated the law, we are condoning cheating.  


by DemoDan on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:23:43 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Imagine that Obama loses all of the big three remaining: Ohio, Texas, and Pennsy.  While he might still have the majority of pledged delegates, he has a much weakened case, in that he will have taken only his home, Illinois in the big state category, plus a couple of semi-big states in Virginia and Missouri.  The supers could conclude that there are grave defects in his coalition.


by Bob H on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 07:15:09 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

If you count every state with delegates above Missouri as a big state, Obama has taken MORE big states than Hillary has.  

Major States equaling over 70 Delegates (Missouri has 72)

Obama won:
Illinois
Missouri
Georgia
Minnesota
Washingon
Virginia
Maryland

Clinton Won:
New York
New Jersey
California
Mass

Even if I throw in Tennessee (at 68 delegates) its still an Obama lead in number of states, although obviously she has a lead in big state delegates.  The only way she would even be considered tied in the number of Big states is with the inclusion of Mich and Florida which as of this moment do not count (although that will  probably change).

Left to play:
Wisconsin
Texas
Ohio
PA
NC
Indiana

Obama has a great shot to win 2 or 3 of the remaining 6 with 70 or more.  

Just saying your math is WAY wrong using the example you gave.  But I concede she has probably won more delegates (without taking the time to count) and the biggest of the big states.  However your myth of Obama not winning big states is just incorrect based on your standard of Missouri as a big state.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:28:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Or putting it another way, there are big states outside of the Northeast and California.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

California!!! (none / 0)

But Hillary WON California!!  Before Super Tuesday EVERYONE said whoever won California would win the nomination!  Everyone said it!!  And Hillary WON!!

Now everyone is trying to change the rules and that isn't fair.  Hillary WON CALIFORNIA and all the super delegates who know best should remember that!!


by Mark Matson on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Hillary at a critical time ran out of money because of mismanagement and let Obama dominate the narrative.

Now she has a really tough time winning.

I would say its possible for her to win except for the staff shakeups.  She is in freefall right now and momentum matters a lot more when the other campaign is making mistakes


www.functionalforums.com
by TerraFF on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 07:54:15 AM EST

The Staff Shake-up has another effect (none / 0)

Many Latinos are upset. They may switch to Obama accordingly.


by drjk on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Staff Shake-up has another effect (none / 0)

I don't the staff shake up think it will have any effect with Hispanics and there is no reason why it should. I do think Obama is going to start making big inroads with young Latinos and in Texas this has already started.


by hankg on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Staff Shake-up has another effect (none / 0)

Why?


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:30:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Why are we not discussing the remaining states?

Hawaii - 20
Rhode Island - 21
Vermont - 15
Wyoming - 12
Mississippi - 33
Indiana - 72
North Carolina - 115
West Virginia - 28
Kentucky - 51
Oregon - 52
Montana - 16
South Dakota - 15
Puerto Rico - 55
Total: 505

We're mostly discussing the big states:
Wisconsin - 74
Texas - 193
Ohio - 141
Pennsylvania - 158
Total: 566

Seems that although between them the "big" states have 566 delegates, the small states have 505 which is about as significant as the big states. In other words, with a 100+ delegate lead, if Obama took all the small states and Clinton took all the big states, he still has a 50+ pledged delegate lead.


by poserM on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:00:53 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Again... if you CALL Wisconsin a big state, than Indiana and NC are big states as well.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:31:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

I disagree with the logic that says that the super delegates must support whoever has the pledged delegate lead (especially when the system for assigning pledged delegates does not necessary reflect popular vote, as is the case in Texas). However, I do not think Hillary can get substantially more support from super delegates until she starts winning some elections.

The bottom line?  While it would be great for the Hillary campaign to rack up a lot of delegates in Texas,  that will be nearly impossible as you and others have shown.  However, if she wins the popular vote in Texas by a decent margin, combined with popular and delegate wins in Oho, Pennsylvania, and other states and territories voting between March and June, she will go into the convention having demonstrated comparable electoral strength with Obama and will thus be able to continue going head to head for the super delegates.


by markjay on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:01:00 AM EST

Forget Texas. What about Wisconsin? (2.00 / 1)

We've got a primary here next Tuesday.  I say this because maybe someone in HRC's camp will read this and forward it to her.

Obama's in the state.  McCain's here.  Huckabee's here.  Hillary?  She's in Texas.

This state should be a good possibility for HRC, and she's blowing it off.  A lot of people I'm talking to have noted this, and are moving to Obama.  (Question - which strategy is going to help down-ticket, HRC's big-state 50+1% or Obama's organize everyone, everywhere?)

You can keep Texas, Hillary.  Don't mess with Wisconsin.


by cheesehead on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:25:04 AM EST

Re: Forget Texas. What about Wisconsin? (none / 0)

This has happened in several states as well.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Coming from a state (WA) that doesn't even have party registration, I'm a little bit baffled by this; indeed, I don't even know whether I'm a 'Democrat' or not: I normally vote Democratic, and intend to vote Democratic in the Fall, but I don't carry a card and haven't paid any dues.  My sense is that many if not most independent dem primary voters are similar: why not let us decide who, specifically, we'll be voting for in November, given that we'll be voting Dem?


by seand on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:31:23 AM EST

A couple of points (none / 0)

Hispanics may be 25 percent of the primary turnout. Women will probably make up 51 percent or so.

This bit of turnout projection is Obama-friendly in the extreme. In the 2004 Texas primary - a non-event that occured a week after Kerry officially clinched the nomination - women made up 53% of the voters and Latinos close to the quarter you suggest here. If you don't think that both segments' turnout will be up - possibly way up - from what it was last time, you simply haven't been paying close attention to the internals of this year's races. The female share of the Democratic electorate has been up in nearly every primary we've seen, going as high as 60% in some cases. The Latino vote-increase has not been as consistent or as large, but was especially evident in the hotly-contested races, like those on Super Tuesday (California Latinos went from 16% to 30% of the Democratic electorate). If the Obama campaign is banking on TX women and Latino voters' turnout remaining stagnant, they could be in for a surprise similar to what they experienced in New Hampshire and California.

Obama's strengths here come from a fast-growing, younger, more progressive Democratic base with victories under its belt,  and surprising support among independent and moderate-to-conservative types.

I'd be intrigued to see if you have any evidence - non-anecdotal - that Obama will do especially well with either independents or moderate-to-conservative voters in Texas. I would wager that the ones here in Texas are really a breed apart from those in Virginia or Maryland. To the extent that you can compare,  in the surrounding states or states with similar demographics, Obama has not done especially well in independents: in Oklahoma, Clinton won independents by three; in Tennessee, Obama won them by four; and in Louisiana, he won them by a smaller margin than he won among Democrats overall, with just a three-point edge among white indies. I don't see the open-primary factor working in his favor to any great extent, especially if the McCain/Huckabee race is still somewhat competitive. OTOH, there is a lot of Clinton-hate among Republicans here so he might get some crossovers that way.


by Shawn on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:34:34 AM EST

Do you live in Texas? (none / 0)

Or are you speculating?


by drjk on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you live in Texas? (none / 0)

I do live in Texas.


by Shawn on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you live in Texas? (2.00 / 1)

I live here. In Austin. I've managed the last two competitive Democratic statewide primaries. Fair question, though.

I AM speculating, though, trying to do so fairly and with some experience brought to bear.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A couple of points (none / 0)

Your neglecting two things:

  1.  AA vote in 2004 was 21 percent.  That number will be up, WAY up.
  2. AA population in Texas has increased after Hurricane Katrina.

Regardless, HRC cannot overcome Obama's lead without help from super-delegates.  He will be leading in pledged delegates when all is said and done.  The party would be stupid to chose anyone but him.


Obama '08
by foxsucks81 on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A couple of points (none / 0)

AA vote in 2004 was 21 percent.  That number will be up, WAY up.

The AA vote has increased significantly in many Southern states, but not all. It will almost certainly be smaller than the Hispanic vote.

AA population in Texas has increased after Hurricane Katrina.

True, but as of 2006, it was still slightly lower than the national average.


by Shawn on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A couple of points (none / 0)

Quantifiable turnout projections are going to be hard to come by here. I agree that if either women or Latino turnout is substantially -- way substantially -- above historical turnout, it may help Clinton some in the popular vote.

Nonetheless, it can't possibly, in my opinion, be high enough for her to carry Texas by a large enough margin to change the delegate scenario by much.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:01:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My Diary on Daily Kos discusses this (none / 0)

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2 /13/72630/1691/829/455822


by drjk on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:54:12 AM EST

What about the Texas Caucus? (none / 0)

Hillary may come out with more delegates in the Texas precinct primaries, but Obama will win the Texas caucuses.

Analysis HERE shows a possible 3 delegate gain overall for Obama. The question is whether or not the press will figure out how to report Texas by then, or if they'll just post the meaningless statewide margin in the primaries.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:01:41 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Universal, can you post some of those numbers? I am shocked at that 29% number.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:09:27 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (2.00 / 1)

"Women will probably make up 51 percent or so."-Glenn Smith

That seems quite low.  All states in 2008 female participation has been much higher than it was in 2004 usually about 3-4% pts.  Texas was 53% in 2004, so above 55% seems a safe bet.

"AA vote in 2004 was 21 percent.  That number will be up, WAY up."-foxsucks81

That may not be the case.  VA 2004 AA participation 33%, 2008 30%.  

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primari es/pages/epolls/VA/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primari es/results/epolls/index.html#VADEM

On your second point AA population of Texas 2000 11.5%, 2006 11.9%. That is not much different from national increase, of 12.4% in 2000, 12.8% in 2006.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/ 48000.html
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAF FFacts?_event=Search&_lang=en&_s se=on&geo_id=04000US48&_state=04 000US48


by mdana on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:11:15 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

A warning about using % to compare results.  AA votes in VA this year could be lower on a % basis but still higher than in 04 because some other category of voters increased more than AA voters (like white women).  Given about the same turnout,   this caution would make sense.  I guess the VA primary didn't mean much in 04 though, because the Dem turnout was about 387,000 people, vs this years 970,000 people.  It seems that all categories of votes were way up.

04:  33% (from exit poll) * 387,000 primary voters = 129,000 AA
08:  30% * 970,000 = 291,000 AA

The true measure of turnout increases would be to see what % of the AA population of VA was.  So, using census data estimates from 2006 [http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/ 51000.html]
and adding or subtracting 2.66% population growth/2year in VA, and a constant 19.9% AA of all Virginians, we get:

04:  VA pop = 7,439,000
     AA pop = 1,480,000
     4.3% of non-AA pop voting in primary (04 voters/(04VApop-04AApop))
     8.7% of AA pop voting in primary

08:  VA pop = 7,847,000
     AA pop=1,562,000
     10.8% nonAA voting
     18.6% AAvoting

So unless I missed something, this is a pretty huge increase in African Americans voting in the Dem primary, relative to overall population size, even larger than the overall turnout increase.  

(Sure, I know the entire population isn't eligible to vote, and maybe the % of AA in Virginia wasn't 19.9% in 08 or 04 like in 06.  So if you want to argue with that, go find the over 18 registered voters by race and run the numbers.  I have to get back to work!)  :)


How is John McCain different than John Edwards?
by The lurking ecologist on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

The Texas firewall is not so much delegate driven as popular vote driven. If Obama can't win OH, PA, FL or TX in the dem nom, why would anybody expect him to win them in the general? The general election is popular vote, not funky Dem delegate rules, and the super delegates want a winner. Throw MO into that mix too, he barely squeaked that one out and it will be a tough one for him in November.


by herb the verb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:38:39 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Actually, the general election is funky electoral college rules.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Superb thread! Thanks! (none / 0)

I just want to compliment the writers on this thread. I've learned more about Texas politics here than in several months of reading the "popular" national commentators. (And all without vitriol!)

Awesome job, folks! More and better threads!


by bcamarda on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:51:22 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

I'm flyin home to Texas from the Jersey to vote, caucus, and volunteer for Obama - so excited.

By my math a vote in a Liberal leaning or AA district is worth about twice that of a hispanic district, because of the delegate allocation.  


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:19:41 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

Great way to alienate others looking to join the party.  

Illinois, we declare on Election day and take a ballot either Repub or Dem.  THAT to me is the best way.


by yitbos96bb on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 10:20:08 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

What do folks see for popular vote in Texas?

I think the Supers are going to decide it and the popular vote may hold every bit as much sway, if not more, than pledged delegates.  If Clinton holds a decent popular vote lead, what's Obama's moral argument for looking at pledged delegates instead?   There's no rule that makes Supers look to pledged delegate counts.  He may need fewer under the rules if he has more pledged delegates, but there's going to be plenty unpledged Supers and switchers to make up for that for either candidate.


by BDB on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:30:02 AM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

RE: Michigan and Florida -- The credentials committee would decide whether those delegates get seated and the membership on the committee IS ALLOCATED PROPORTIONALLY TO THE PLEDGED DELEGATES.

If we assume that Obama stays ahead in pledged delegates,unless there is a do-over on FL and MI, the states' delegates will not be seated.


by mainelib on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 11:39:13 AM EST

I might have missed it... (none / 0)

...but in areas where there is a primary (rather than a caucus), can independents vote in the Democratic primary?


by faithfull on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 01:07:16 PM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

While Texas and/or Ohio might not bring enough pledged delegates to Hillary, strong popular vote wins, if they happen, will not be unnoticed.  They will likely put Hillary back on top with regards to a popular vote majority and clearly demonstrate that delegate count does not necessarily reflect the will of the people.  In that case, superdelegates will not be under some moral imperative to support the pledged delegate leader when that contradicts what appears to be the popular vote winner.

If at the end of the day, Obama has a pledged delegate lead of greater than what MI and FL would add AND a popular vote "lead" even when counting MI and FL (count the uncommited votes for Obama, if you must), then the argument that superdelegates must line up behind him has merit.  If Hillary has a popular vote lead when not counting MI and FL and has a pledged delegate lead when counting those states, then it's really the duty of superdelegates to line up behind her, to prevent the rules from thwarting the will of the people.

If it's somewhere in between, it'll be very messy.  Neither Hillary nor Obama will be able to clearly claim a popular mandate.


by DaveOinSF on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 03:32:20 PM EST

Re: Texas: What Firewall? (none / 0)

"Open primaries must go after this cycle."

This is an odd statement for anyone who claims to be a progressive.  The Progressive movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries created the primary system to take selection of candidates away from the party insiders and give it to the electorate.  The lion of the Progressive movement, Robert M. La Follette championed open primaries in the state of Wisconsin.  Wisconsin was the first state to hold a primary, and its primaries have remained open ever since.  

"Presidential primary elections had their genesis in Wisconsin where Gov. Robert M. LaFollette, a prominent figure in the history of American reform, persuaded the Wisconsin legislature to establish a direct popular election -- controlled by state officials -- to select delegates to national political conventions. "No longer," he said, "will there stand between the voter and the official a political machine with a complicated system of caucuses and conventions, by the manipulation of which it thwarts the will of the voter." - Election News, Vol. 3, No. 2 July 1999.

Open primaries are the epitome of the Progressive idea.  Closed primaries are anti-Progressive.  Independents will always gravitate to the party with the best ideas.  Political parties with good ideas have no fear of attracting independents to participate in their nomination process.


by LanceS on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:21:18 PM EST


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