Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia

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I started out my day in suburban Alexandria, VA where Barack Obama was holding an education roundtable followed by a townhall meeting at a local high school. I had a friend of mine, who lives locally, come with me -- she'd never seen Barack speak before, and as she'd gotten there before me, she called me very worried we wouldn't get in -- the line snaked well down the street and the traffic was blocked up for a mile. I assured her that we, as bloggers, would be able to go in the media entrance and not to worry (I should stop here just to note how outstanding the access the campaigns have granted bloggers has been -- really great, much thanks to both campaigns.)

As is always the case with Obama events, the crowd was diverse in every way, age- (although on the younger side) and race-wise (probably a little less than 2 to 1 white, fairly consistent with Virginia's voting population.) As we got into the gymnasium, attendees were seated in the stands -- I'd guess the gym seated around 1-2,000 -- and as entertainment, were led in "Obama!" and "Yes We Can!" chants. Even if the crowd had never seen Obama in person before, they seemed to be almost familiar with the drill, as though they'd heard from their friends how these things went, or maybe they've just caught enough on TV. There was the sense that people had come to see an old friend as opposed to a month ago when you sort of felt as though people had come to see a curiosity.

About an hour after arriving, the media was escorted to the school cafeteria where Barack would sit down with group of five local concerned citizens to discuss education. Barack began by giving a brief statement to the gathered media, but other than us, it was really just the six of them sitting around a table as they do in a sitcom: with everyone seated around 3 of the sides of the table, leaving the 4th open for the cameras to get a view.

I guess what was so striking about it was how unremarkable it all was. Obama was low key, not seeking to make news really, nor really trying to overly impress -- he certainly betrayed a quiet confidence and the feeling that he considers the issue of education as larger than just a campaign theme. The event did have an air of political theatre to it, however, which these things inevitably do. No one really thinks the participants' questions and the issues they were raising were surprises to Obama. But ultimately he engaged them in an easy conversation about education that was almost as though the cameras weren't even there; it lasted about a half hour.

In the discussion, Obama addressed making college more affordable, improving teacher pay, his support for pre-K for all, English as a second language training, the importance of math and science literacy and of course No Child Left Behind. It was probably most interesting to hear him talk with the participants about certain aspects of education that people don't usually think about impacting educational success, such as mandatory PhysEd, which leads to better test scores overall and music education, which improves students' math performance. They also talked about how important a kid's home life is and that it starts with parents, but they also talked about the role both the school and the government have in helping kids reach their full potential, both from 0-3, when kids do the most learning, and once they're in the public education system. One woman, a social worker for non-English speaking students and another who had a special needs child, drove the conversation in interesting directions as well.

Obama took the opportunity to discuss health care, which he sees as intertwined with a child's educational success. As for what he can do immediately for kids, he said that while his "universal health care plan may take a year to get passed, right away we can expand S-Chip." This statement alone offered a reminder of the very real rewards our country will be able to reap fairly quickly from having a Democratic president; wow, I can't wait. At the same time, I was also disturbed at Obama's continued use of the term "universal" to refer to a plan that by definition does not cover everyone. His claim that reducing costs will make people who don't have insurance suddenly go out and get it seems mighty naive; if healthy people are not compelled to buy health insurance, why would they suddenly go out and purchase it? I understand that enforcing a mandate has its own problems, but not requiring everyone to buy-in by definition makes reducing costs more difficult. But no matter where one stands on the issue of mandates, what's indisputable is that Obama's calling his healthcare plan "universal" is deceiving.

The problems I have with Obama on healthcare aside, from what I could tell about his remarks on education today, he's strong on the issue and, as with other issues, approaches it with a welcome complexity and a deep belief and trust in government to improve our country's institutions, which under Bush have been failing us miserably.



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Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Its funny you say that about Phys Ed... To my knowledge, the only state that REQUIRES PE for all public schools and grades is Illinois.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:18:49 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

I think that it's required for all grades to high school in Wisconsin, and then three (or four) semesters in high school.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

As for the insurance, this is anecdotal, but I didn't have insurance for a while... and it was because I couldn't afford it at the time.  I know others in the same boat.  There is NO ONE I know who is uninsured that wouldn't WANT to have insurance.  They either can't afford it, OR they didn't qualify due to some physical ailment.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:23:06 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

that's why HRC's plan is the best because it covers those that cannot afford it with subsidies.


by findthesource on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Obama's plan has the same subsidies. It's fine for you to explain Hillary's plan, but don't make statements about Obama's out of ignorance.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 1)

I don't like the government forcing me to do ANYTHING!  We want to change the west into Blue country, then we need to not forget the very libertarian streak running through that area of the country.  

Mandates suck.  The ONLY way a mandate is acceptible to me is if the proposal is single payer health care.  Other than that, I don't think the government has the right to order anyone to buy insurance. Last I checked, we were adults and could make decisions for ourselves.  That being said, those who can't afford it will be able to once its cheaper.  My bet is if it was actually affordable, 99% of the country will have it.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Then I guess you think people should not be required to have car insurance? The people in the West who don't like Hillary's plan won't like Obama's either.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

Car insurance is liability insurance for when you hit someone else. Not a good comparison.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 1)

i'm interested in exploring this analogy further.  it seems to me that car insurance isn't really that affordable right now, and many people who can't afford it don't get it, mandate or no.  I wonder if the mandate has really been that effective, or is it just piling on to the problems that people have already?  has anyone posted on this?  links?


by cwreno2001 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

There are no subsidies for car insurance. Either you can afford it, or you are in trouble if you get into a wreck or need to get tags. No help at all.


by splashy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

No need for the personal insult. You do want me to vote for him if he wins the nomination, right?


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

Are you in favor of privatizing Social Security?  Right now the government forces you to pay in, even if you think you could do a better job of investing on your own.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

That's both a terrible analogy and not quite accurate.  Social security is a government program for all supported by a payroll tax.  You are not forced to pay in to receive benefits.  Benefits are given to everyone, including my mother in law who never worked a day in her life.  Everyone who works pays a payroll tax.  That is not what an individual mandate is.  And an individual mandate allows you to decide to pay your mandated premium to a private company or a public one - something that obviously we cannot do with Social Security...and hopefully never will be able to do.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Bad comparison. First of all people are already used to that coming out of their checks. They don't write the SSA a check every month. Second of all people expect to get that money back (for the most part). Payments to the government or private insurers, forced payments at that, every month will not at all be viewed like SS.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

No, it's actually an excellent comparison, what you don't understand is that it's all in the framing.  People are entirely familiar with deductions being taken out of their paycheck for health insurance.  When you take a job and your employer explains that you'll be getting health insurance and there's going to be a deduction from your check every week, you don't scream bloody murder.  You're happy to be getting insurance.

And no one is going to be forced to make payments to a private insurer, under anyone's plan.

I'm really amazed at the Obama supporters who believe we can muster the political will to unify the country, reinvent government, and change the way politics is done, but there's no way we can persuade people to have deductions taken out of their paycheck for health insurance.  I guess when it's someone else's plan it's easy to call it impossible.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

I understand that you think it is.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Thanks for what was almost a conversation.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Perhaps you can explain the wage garnishment issue. If everyone is going to have health care payments deducted from their check then why is there a need for an enforcement mechanism?

I might have an idea about that. Not everyone works for an employer. Now those people are used to paying SS when they pay taxes right? But is that how HRC's plan works? Will they just be tacked on as taxes or are you expected to pay either the government or an insurance company on a monthly basis?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

At some point I wish you would actually read his plan.  He has an employer mandate so people who work actually will have what you describe.  There is no substantive difference between the two plans in terms of people who work for companies.

And it is the belief that we can unify the country, reinvent government, and change the way politics is done that leads us to believe we can get people who can afford it to voluntarily take better care of themselves and better protect themselves through an insurance which is affordable.  President Kennedy had a great effect on the National fitness of this country.  There is no reason to believe another President could have a similar effect on raising Health Care to an issue everyone supports without forcing them.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Should read no reason to believe another President couldn't have...


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

...if healthy people are not compelled to buy health insurance, why would they suddenly go out and purchase it?

Why? For exactly the reasons why I have health insurance.  Because it is smart and it protects your life savings.  There is this idea passed around that if you don't have insurance and you show up to a hospital you get everything for free.  They will take your house before they ignore a $100 bill.  It is a point Barack makes often, that too many people have house insurance not health insurance - high deductible policies to bring the premiums down which results in people not going to the doctor.  If he's able to lower premiums, people will buy lower deductible policies and take advantage of  more preventative care.

What Universal coverage really means is equal access for all, something which is now denied by the insurance policy of refusing insurance to those with pre-existing conditions.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:25:16 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

You assume that people are smart, think ahead, and have life's savings.

I know lots of people, myself when younger included, that don't think that way.

When I was younger, in my 20's and 30's there is no way I would have bought into health insurance unless forced to get it.

I have to say that deducting it from paychecks before people see it is actually the best way to go if they are employed, and having the self employed pay into it with their taxes. Others will have to be tapped however it works for them.

But, I'm thinking that the public option is the best way, using the techniques above.


by splashy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:04:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 1)

Calling mandatory insurance universal health care seems equally disturbing and will lead to a severe backlash when it's real meaning is discovered.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:35:39 PM EST

Re: A highly qualified economist Disagrees (none / 0)

How about you quote someone neutral when trying to make your point rather than Krugman who is an unapologetic Clinton supporter.  Being that he is as much an expert as any of us on the subject, his opinion doesn't count for shit.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:08:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A highly qualified economist Disagrees (2.00 / 1)

Excuse me? Krugman does know more than most of us and the fact that he supports Clinton does not automatically make his opinion not worth listening to. He has been a highly respected progressive journalist for years, fighting against the abuses of the Bush administration. You make your candidate look bad when you, as a supporter, make remarks like that.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A highly qualified economist Disagrees (none / 0)

I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I'm saying. I understand Krugman is for mandates. That doesn't mean that the inclusion of forced insurance with penalties levied upon you if you failed to comply will be accepted or acceptable to a large number of Americans.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

Mandatory insurance is the same as what is required in Switzerland, Holland, and the system works well there.   It is progressive, and it is needed here.


by findthesource on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:42:57 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

What is often ignored is that Obama has a mandate for employers, so for almost anyone working for company is automatically covered.  The only people who could opt out are healthy people who can afford insurance and choose not to.  And people who can afford insurance usually have some level of assets and would want insurance if for no other reason than to protect those assets.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Yeah I really don't know anyone who can afford insurance who doesn't have it.  I'd like to know how many people in the US actually fall into the I can afford it but just don't want it catergory.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Single-payer is progressive. Mandates are a losing argument in a country like this. The GOP will have a field day with the wage garnishment issue.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The state of the race (none / 0)

Obama has won 20 states to Clinton's 11, and two of those don't count at the moment.  He clearly has the momentum on his side.

Photobucket

Obama states are blue, Clinton states are red.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:14:17 PM EST

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

Yes, he has the momentum but when you could have chosen another color, it is insulting that you chose red for Clinton. Change your map so we can have some hope of reuniting when this is over. Green would be nice.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

Here's a different color scheme.

Photobucket

Don't accuse me of assigning a femenine color next.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought New Mexico was still up in the air? (none / 0)


by Damien in Texas on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought New Mexico was still up in the air? (none / 0)

Until a recount is completed, it's a Clinton state.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, I would change that color.  I think the implications are not helpful to your point, and are probably offensive to half the room.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

If colors are going to piss people off, I'm really beyond the point of caring.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

But surely you knew what you were doing?


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

That's what I thought--that it was purposeful.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

No, I honestly didn't think about it.  I could just as easily have reversed the colors, but red and blue are probably the best contrast I could think of at the time.  Please don't read too much into it.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

Isn't New Mexico still undecided?


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

The latest numbers have her ahead.  Once it's decided, I'll change it.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

By the way, good job.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

NV was won by Clinton and not Obama.


by indus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The state of the race (none / 0)

Not true, he won more delegates.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is and is not universal? (none / 0)

I totally disagree with Todd Beeton for calling Obama's plan "deceiving". I agree with you using the term if you also used it to describe Hillary's plan. First up, Hillary never explains how she will enforce her mandate so that "every" person will be covered. Even if she's gonna garnish people's wages, it won't work for unemployed and homeless people and thus, leaving still millions without health insurance. It is just as "deceiving" to declare universality when you refuse how you'll enforce the mandate to make it truly universal. So, if you need to call something "deceiving", please do it fairly.

On the other hand, if Barack truly believes everyone will buy insurance when it's affordable, then it's not necessarily "deceiving". It may be unachievable, but not necessarily "deceiving". Here is how practical Hillary's "mandate" will be. Even if she'll "crush" her opponents, the likelihood of her plan getting passed is much lower than Obama's plan. Here's the anecdotal evidence. Take a look for yourself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/opinio n/05brooks.html


Not another Bush or Clinton.
by Barackulikahurricane on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:30:15 PM EST

Right, Mandates don't make it universal, either (none / 0)

This is correct.  Mandates also don't make health care universal.  If someone can't afford health care they won't buy it, even with a mandate.  I doubt seriously anyone want to penalize someone for not buying health care when they can't afford it.

Automatically signing people up to a government plan works, but it doesn't solve the free rider problem on the private side.

This is why the mandate argument from both sides is kind of silly.  There are good reasons for mandates and bad reasons, but the reality is much messier than anyone wants to pretend.  Unfortunately, it is one of the few policy differences and both sides think they have a winning argument, so this keeps getting rhetorically pushed well beyond reason.


by Mark Matson on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right, Mandates don't make it universal, eithe (none / 0)

Ever hear of subsidies? Obviously you have not been either listening or reading the truth since you don't seem to realize there will be subsidies for those that can't pay.

Geesh, so many feel free to comment without actually knowing what they are talking about.

Or maybe you do know and don't want to mention that little detail, because you have some other agenda?


by splashy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:10:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

I am a Barack Obama supporter but as a teacher I cringe whenever I hear about support for No Child Left Behind.  I am at a school that will never be 75% proficient in math much less the 100% required by 2014.  The economic, cultural, and financial characteristics of the area preclude that.  Setting national standards for available resources, teacher qualitification, and some sort of school accountability is good.  Requiring every kid to pass some standardized test is not.  Why should my kids who attend tech school have to plod their way through algebra 2?  They don't want to be there and to be honest I don't want them there either.  Politicians really should leave education to those who specialize in it, just like they should defer to economists for economics, generals for military strategy, and lawyers for interpreting the law.


by jmjessemac on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:31:06 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 1)

I am a single payer advocate, and I have decided to support the individual mandate for a very complex reason - because it is unworkable (the insurance industry cannot produce affordable AND comprehensive insurance packages that will pay for what people need and protect them from financial ruin) and it will force the health care coverage issue to the top position in priorities for the entire American public. Right now the vast majority of people who have  never faced serious illness do not realize how inadequate their insurance is, and do not understand the need to completely revamp the system.

The individual mandate system which is undergoing it's first trial in real life in Massachusetts this year is far outstripping the original estimates of cost. But it has performed a tremendous good, as well. The number of poor and low income people who qualify for Medicaid or 100% insurance subsidy (called Commonwealth Care) have almost ALL signed up for coverage. Normally only about 45% of eligible people actually sign up for these free programs, for a multitude of reasons. With the mandate, they are signing up at a rate over 90%, considered to be an impossible rate to reach up until now. So for the poor and low income the "individual mandate" actually has turned out to be the de facto opposite - it is more like a mandate on government to provide health insurance for the those who cannot afford it. It includes preventive care and other smart, progressive aspects that no state has ever before achieved.

On the other hand, with the mandate the middle class will have to mobilize the political will to fight down the insurance and pharmaceutical industries along with any elected willing to stand up to them. This is why as a former Kucinich supporter, I now support Hillary Clinton's health care plan. Barack Obama's plan lacks teeth and courage, and won't work. It's a proposal to keep the status quo. It is incoherent, because if not everyone is included in the insurance risk pool, they will wait until they are sick, and then sign up for the public plan and take advantage of it, without having paid into it. That doesn't make any economic sense, and will never work. It has to be "everyone in, nobody out."

I trust that when the US middle class really understands the depth to which our health care system is broken beyond repair, they will force real reform, not tinkering around the edges, just as they rejected the privatization of Social Security.

I also trust Hillary Clinton to get the job done, she "gets" how difficult it will be. If you actually study her plan, you will see she is the more progressive and courageous of the candidates, with an amazing depth of understanding on this issue.

For a while after I was disabled as a first responder at 9-11, I volunteered at Senator Clinton's district office to help field the countless incoming calls from constituents. As a trusted person I was given the job of reading constituent mail and distributing it to the appropriate staff for reply. I read many, many letters from small town constituents, many died in the wool Republicans, who expressed their shock and immense gratitude that she came back and kept all the campaign promises she had made to them. I cannot recall the exact words, but a typical letter would say, "You told us that the first thing you would do after getting elected was to come back and take care of [our problem], and we though you were being nice and we would never see you again. We were astounded when the next day after you were sworn in we got a call from your office that you would be arriving... we never expected that from any politician, never mind a Democrat." There was no press involved, no photo op, no fanfare for Senator Clinton, she simply delivered. I believe she will deliver on her promises, and can return the US government to competence and trustworthiness again.

Amorphous promises of change from someone who votes "present" so he won't be controversial later is a very risky business indeed, with only 3 years of experience as a Senator. Senator Clinton has been through 9-11 and understands all too well what is at stake. She may not be a rock star of an orator, but I want a president who has the background to take care of business, and she is solid through and through.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:31:07 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

thanks '07rescue. that was truly eloquent.


by thetis on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Thanks for all of that. I didn't think of how the MA plan would work out for the poor, it sounds better than I thought it would.

Also thanks for the insight on Clinton's behavior. I voted for her, and now and very glad I did.


by splashy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

naive (2.00 / 1)

hit the nail on the head.  Glad to see someone actually bothering to challenge him on policy because there are many where the super fiscal talk sounds good but you dig in and find it very sorely lacking.

I agree with Krugman, the only way you're going to get to universal health care is to start with....universal health care.  That corporate machine is going to try to eat any bill alive.  


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:39:44 PM EST

Re: naive (none / 0)

How do you think a bill that requires mandatory insurance or you'll get punished will play out in America?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (2.00 / 0)

How will it play out in America? Poorly. That is exactly why I insist loudly to you that she is the more courageous of the candidates. When people claim she is poll-driven I say, simply look at what she is taking on and explain to me where she has taken the easy road...?

But with her quiet guts she just might be able to get us to single payer, with all elbows flying to get us there. Her default public program will be there to provide real coverage, and all those people crowing about how government cannot do anything right will be changing their tune. Progressives should be standing with her on this. It will be a rocky ride, but she is taking the first steps.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (none / 0)

When she says everyone will be covered under her plan what do you think people are hearing? That they'll be forced to buy insurance or have their wages garnished or something else entirely?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (2.00 / 0)

I think what many people are hearing is that everyone will have some personal responsibility to pay into the system in a progressive fashion that is capped at a small percentage of their family income, and will in return receive an adequate health plan that will provide for their health care needs and protect them from bankruptcy and worse. It's called "playing by the rules."


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (none / 0)

You think they're hearing the "or else" part?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (none / 0)

Some will hear the "or else" part and voice their concerns. That is an essential part of the process.

The people in Massachusetts who cannot afford any policies offered in their area are granted waivers, which have added up to approximately 60,000 residents who have legitimate reasons to not buy insurance. The important idea is that the  system must be designed to be fair, which I believe the Clinton plan has achieved. The insurance industry and pharmaceutical companies will fight it with all their might, because they want to continue ripping off the American public to ever greater measure. Only a tremendous government program with the economies of scale like Medicare multiplied several times will succeed in keeping prices for Americans within reason. Otherwise the costs of health care may well supercede the entire earning capacity of many Americans, and our lives will be held hostage to these companies. In return for reining in these companies, government will need us all to be a part of the solution, and pay into the system. Otherwise we will all be on our own, without the power to protect ourselves from the industry that would take our last nickels.

We cannot do nothing, and think we will be OK. In emergency medicine I see people die everyday from the lack of access to health care. And once people get sick, very quickly they become poor. It is only getting worse, and now the health care industry is also getting into the financing business, so they can add exorbitant credit card interest on top of unaffordable medical costs.

It's better to take a small piece of responsibility and pay a fair price for real value. I would prefer it was via taxes for a single payer system, but I do believe the American public does not want that right now. Perhaps over time they will see how much better things could be, and the individual mandate will help get us there.


by 07rescue on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (none / 0)

<QUOTE> When people claim she is poll-driven I say, simply look at what she is taking on and explain to me where she has taken the easy road...? </QUOTE>

Ir ... cough cough... aq

Sorry: What were you asking?


by seand on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: naive (2.00 / 0)

we should also remember '93. the republicans do not want to see hillary, as president, coming after them on the subjct of healthcare, again, this time as president. bill kristol stiffened the spine of the republicans back then knowing that a clinton victory on this issue would help establish a long-term dem majority. he told everyonento to compromise one iota b/c universal helathcare is pure poison to repub politics. the repubs are terrified! of seeing hillary bringing healthcare at them again. a very powerful scenario to contemplate.


by thetis on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that's ridiculous (2.00 / 0)

frankly this ain't gonna be car insurance and there will be subsidies available as she repeatedly said.

Please do not post just outright falsehoods.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's ridiculous (none / 0)

Subsidies for people that the government determines can't afford to pay outright correct?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and (none / 0)

you might add to that promoting the flat tax but what I want to know is what is a GOP person claiming false hoods about the system,  there won't be a graduated scale doing on a Democratic blog?


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

I should add that even if Hillary will garnish people's wages for not buying insurance, they will still not having insurance and their money taken from them. Look at Mitt Romney's universal coverage in Massachussettes, millions still not having health care and some have to pay the fine while not having health care. Is this truly universal? It is if your enforcement is 100%, thus covering "everyone" and even if it is 100%, if people can't afford it or don't want to buy, such as young healthy people, they will pay the fine and not buying health insurance. I know there are drivers out there who don't have car insurance even if it means they'll get fined heavily and even get their license suspended. It is naive to think Hillary's plan will be universal just because it comes with a "mandate" without any proposal of enforcement. This is a joke. So again I strongly disagree with you're calling one plan "deceiving" and not the other. I will agree if you say Hillary's plan will likely to cover more people. But to say that it'll be universal is just as "deceiving". Enough said!


Not another Bush or Clinton.
by Barackulikahurricane on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:42:51 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

As a state the Massachusetts plan does not offer a public health coverage plan, the way the Clinton plan does, this is a critical difference. Her plan does not force people to buy private insurance the way the Massachusetts plan does, one can opt for the public plan, which could eventually become "Medicare for All", the Holy Grail of progressive goals. The Obama plan fall far short of that, and there is no reason to believe his plan would ever lower insurance costs without a mandate.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 1)

How can Hillary claim Universal Health Coverage is a basic human right and then turn around and not cover the 12 million illegal immigrants in this country?  


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:55:24 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Where have you seen that she would not cover them? Basic public health standards demand that everyone receive health care, not to mention human decency.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

It was asked in a debate.  To be accurate, it was John Edwards who actually said his plan and Hillary's did not cover illegal immigrants and since she raised no objection to his representation I think we can safely assume he was accurate.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:43:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

The last debate showed that Obama is clearly out of his league on health care compared to Clinton. I don't trust him to get us through the minefield of obstacles the Republicans will set up.  I fear that his commitment to "bringing people together" will lead him to negotiate everything away.  (His new friends in the media will insist on that, by the way.)  I also don't think his core supporters will pressure him to do the right thing.  Their devotion to him seems boundless.


by Upstate Dem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:56:16 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

"Bring us together" doesn't sound very good to me since he is not specifying exactly which compromises of progressive principles he will sacrifice to get us to this consensus. If we are so unlucky as to end up with him as the nominee I think his followers may end up severely disillusioned when they find out what he means. Republicans know only one form of "consensus", which is "Do it our way or else."

Young people who are inexperienced with politics may be fooled by all this "coming together" talk, but Obama is just another very smart politician with great showmanship and an ear for what people want to hear.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Hillary better get some people in WI.  I am a Barack supporter myself, but just look at the map  She's gonna need a win before TX.  Without it, she'll lose either TX or OH.

One other note.  Watch out for super delegate support to start peeling off of HRC 7 onto barack if she fails to win 1 chesepeake primary.


by a gunslinger on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:03:24 PM EST

I have a step-daughter (none / 0)

who has indirectly forced me back into politics because I want her to inherit a better world from us.

And while I would love for her to see a woman as president, I would want that woman to be a GOOD president -- and I do not believe Hillary is going to be a good president.


by DoubleDs on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:03:56 PM EST

Re: I have a step-daughter (2.00 / 0)

I believe she will be an outstanding President. Having seen up close how she is the hardest working elected official I have ever met I am willing to bet my life that she would do what is best for future, without compromise and without taking the easy way out. I am afraid her handlers have advised her to run too far to the right for the purpose of this election, but her intellect and sense of fairness would guide her through all the many pitfalls that otherwise can derail an administration. There is no quid pro quo with her.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Just turned 65, very healthy-Medicare Parts A & B plus employer-subsidised private insurance: $4,200 per year for a couple.  Plans involve co-pays for many services.  Is that about what universal health care would cost?
Anybody know?  
by CLK on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:20:40 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

The Republican privatization of Medicare has raised costs and decreased benefits. This is exactly why we need a PUBLIC program, like original Medicare, that eliminates the administrative costs and profiteering of the private insurance industry. Costs are much lower in a public program, which is what the Clinton health care plan proposes. The Clinton plan also proposes very low caps on the percentage of family income that will be paid for coverage, so it is progressive, not regressive the way current premiums are.

The privatization of government health care programs over the past 8 years has ruined them.

Costs should be charged according to your family income.

Barack Obama's plan does not have any caps on premium charges, so there is no protection. He has also been talking about imposing a mandate on "stragglers" who do not sign up for insurance under his plan, but hasn't insisted that there be any caps on what they would have to pay (that is where it takes courage to go up against a multi billion dollar industry- she has it, he doesn't).

But we as the public will need to fight for that kind of program, or the health care industry will continue to price gouge the public.


by 07rescue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

The problem is that we already have big chunks of our health care system that are ALREADY socialized, like HMO's for example.  I recognize that many people have their heart in the right place but profit is not what's killing our health care system.  If we take profit out of the equation, we will kill our system.  Health Care is not comparable to an issue like infrastructure (i.e. city rail lines) where there is only one infrastructure that should be controlled centrally.  Health care is much more dynamic, complex and I completely dispute that a free market approach can't solve this issue.  By the way, if it's true that 40 million people don't have it (a debatable number due to many young people not wanting it), that means that the majority of us do have it and the majority of us are not unhappy with our plans, other then the costs.


by KensUSA on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Your misunderstanding of the health care crisis is exactly why we will continue to have an estimated 101,000 Americans dying prematurely from preventable causes due to the perverse profit incentives of our chaotic and senseless health care delivery system. The market serves the purpose of profiteering. It is at total odds with the public good of delivering care to the sick and injured.


by 07rescue on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

07rescue... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your heart is in the right place.  But you really are lacking in perspective.  Many of the life saving drugs that have been created over the last 100 years have been developed by profiteering companies who invest millions in R%D in order to find these cures.  While they should not be gouging the public, they should also not be demonized by the left.
My brother-in-law is a surgeon, he saves lives.  He spent 10 years in school, another few as an intern working 24 hour shifts at Cook County hospital.  Another 7 years paying back student loans.  Yes, he is making a good living now, profiteering off his profession.  But people seek him out because he's good and he knows it.

Profiteering is not at odds with health care.  It's at odds with a misguided utopian view of capitalism and human nature.


by KensUSA on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

There is absolutely nothing lacking in my perspective, I would venture that all the people who cannot afford your brother's services as a surgeon would contend that there is something seriously lacking in your perspective. Profiteering is completely at odds with the public good in health care delivery.

The vast majority of R&D funding has been supplied by NIH, ie., US taxpayers, to develop the truly helpful and groundbreaking new drugs. The vast majority of poorly tested "me too" drugs that have been put on market have made their way down the very slick PHeMA drug pipeline, including all those which have never been tested in head to head studies and do not work as well as the less profitable older drugs. Tweaking a molecule to making a drug patentable, whether it helps people or not, is a foul way to conduct drug development, helpful to no one by the corporate stockholder.


by 07rescue on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

Here's the formula for disaster:
         A "Bring Us Together" President  
                        +
             His loyal base of support
                        +
                     Broderism
                        +
                  Mitch McConnell
          --------------------------------
           A crappy health care "solution"
        that makes Democrats look bad for years
by Upstate Dem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:24:35 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

What about the Dems honestly makes you  think they'll get the GOP to comply with any sort of dramatic health care plan?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (none / 0)

Where does the Democratic Congress fit into that equation?  Either candidate would have to deal with that obstacle (or advantage?).


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Education Roundtable In Virginia (2.00 / 0)

If the Democrats capture the Presidency we will have all three branches of government under our control, and there is no better time to try to effect the kind of health care reform that is long overdue.

It won't be easy, and will have to be done in stages, because we need to prove to the American people that these reforms will actually work and benefit them the same way the same reforms have greatly improved the lot of people in every other industrialized nation that has adopted them. These are not untried reforms, all have worked elsewhere in the world to increase access to health care and decrease the costs. We in the US are the outlier who still allow chaos and severe rationing of health care according to ability to pay, the cruelest form of rationing. Even Republicans and business leaders are agreeing that the time for reform is here, although many will need to be convinced that government is competent to administer health care reform. That trust must be earned by producing positive results, and demonstrating that even greater gains can be made by making health care universally available to all, and taking the burden off of business.

The greater gains that can be made toward a majority in both houses of Congress will ease the efforts for health care reform.


by 07rescue on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama, arrogant, bored (none / 0)

What him in these round tables.  Look at his expressions.  He isn't even listening.  He is just marking time.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:00:31 PM EST

Re: Obama, arrogant, bored (none / 0)

That's sort of the opposite impression people who actually know him and worked with him have. But what the heck do they know?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, arrogant, bored (2.00 / 0)

I am a Clinton supporter, but I can understand politicians getting bored with going over the same old ground over and over. That kind of disinterest I don't have a problem with. I am concerned because people in Chicago know him better because they have seen him up close over time, when he hasn't been campaigning and on good behavior, and more than one person thinks he is very arrogant and know it all. I fear that in a President, that kind of attitude leaves too much room for sloppiness and missing vital information.

One of Senator Clinton's personal qualities that makes her into more of a policy wonk is her assiduous attention to detail and in depth analysis, far beyond most people's tolerance for complexity. Not everyone appreciates the depth to which she attends to policy, trying to iron out all the "unintended consequences" before they can screw up a program, and people's lives. That is the art of governance, I believe.

Some people find oratory inspiring, I find exquisitely perfected program design inspiring. It's governing as though you realize the policies and laws that you enact actually have an effect on people's lives and that you intend to be accountable to them. Many politicians only want to make it through to the next election, and make it sound good until then. Senator Clinton wants to really change things for working people, in a way that improves lives.

Complex policy doesn't make for rock star performances at rallies, but the Presidency isn't something we want to be buying tickets to for four years. We need someone who will be working for us.


by 07rescue on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:07:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, arrogant, bored (none / 0)

Please don't believe dpANDREWS's spin, which is almost always contradictory to reality.

There is nobody who knows Obama and has worked with him who believe that he does not understand and care about policy. Really, I welcome you to try to prove me wrong. I've read up on him extensively and I've simply never seen a suggestion to that effect from people who have worked with him on policy.


by Korha on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, arrogant, bored (none / 0)

Obama's health care plan is significantly less courageous than Clinton's, and it doesn't make sense. If you do not require a mandate for everyone to have health insurance, but require the insurance companies to grant policies to everyone who asks for them, people will be able to buy policies AFTER they get sick - this is like buying home owner insurance after your house is already burning. The insurance companies will never agree to such a program, and there is no way to make it economically sustainable, even if we had single payer national health insurance available. Health insurance will only work if it requires "everybody in, nobody out."

I want to point out strongly that among low income people  who are eligible for Medicaid and other free public health insurance programs offered in the states, out of 100% of those eligible, only approximately 47% will sign up. This is true across the US. So there are many reasons that people do not sign up for health insurance outside of "they cannot afford it" as Obama claims. In Massachusetts, where there is now a mandate in effect, 92% of those eligible for free health insurance sign up. That is a huge improvement. Now a tremendous number of low income people have free health insurance who did not have it before, including preventive care. It is really a mandate on government to provide health insurance to the poor. Obama's plan betrays low income people.

The contradictions and obvious lack of teeth in Obama's health care plan, along with his nasty attacks on the far more progressive Clinton plan cause me to severely distrust his integrity and grasp of adequate solutions to this life and death issue. Along with his absurd claims that he will have his health plan adopted within the first year of his administration. Everyone in healh care understands how ridiculous that claim is. There is no way for his proposals to work, they are just so much verbiage. Worse, he adopts right wing talking points to destroy the dream of universal health care.

I am a single payer advocate, and single payer uses progressive taxation to include everyone in the financing mechanism to provide health care for all. It is a mandate, simply in other words, using taxes to pay instead of premiums (with subsidies for the poor). Single payer would be far more efficient, however. We need a grassroots movement to press for single payer, the only economically sustainable way to provide adequate health care access to everyone.


by 07rescue on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 05:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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