Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses

Here are the results:

√ Obama: 1,817 state delegates (59 percent)
Clinton: 1,263 state delegates (41 percent)

79 percent of precincts reporting

No call yet, but will let you know if and when there is one...

Update [2008-2-10 18:50:3 by Jonathan Singer]: NBC News, CNN, Fox News and the AP have just called the Maine caucuses for Barack Obama, which seems like a reasonable call at this point given his lead and the percentage of precincts in.

Update [2008-2-10 19:19:17 by Jonathan Singer]: CNN is now projecting that Obama will win 15 pledged delegates out of Maine compared with the 9 delegates going to Clinton, meaning that he would walt out with a net gain of 6 delegates.



Display:


Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

No reason to be disrespectful.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:26:27 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Wow, this was meant to be close, not a closer.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:26:56 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 3)

Wow, she is/was supposed to win this state.  I can't wait for the usual excuses about it being a caucus and Hillary, despite her 35 years of experience - husband carrying this state -  20 years in Washington, not being able to compete with Obama's (newcomer) organizational advantages (that he built from scrap and didn't have the establishment endorsements like Hillary).


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:28:30 PM EST

let me get this straight (2.00 / 1)

You do not accept the premise that the results in Maine would have looked very different if they had held a primary?

You think Obama would be leading Hillary in a Maine primary by 57-42 percent?

Obviously the issue is her campaign's failure to build up an organization in caucus states, where organization counts for more.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The question is 'why'? (none / 0)

I don't know if the results would have looked different or not, but obviously the assumption is that they would (because Obama's supporters are more dedicated than Hillary's and thus caucus for him, while hers do not).  Typically it isn't the newcomer to the scene that is better at building neighborhood by neighborhood caucus organizations.


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (2.00 / 3)

I'm pretty sure they've each won the same number of primaries (9 each) - so Obama can run a primary campaign as well. (And Maine does allow absentee votes in their caucus)

We can play the what-if game -- but the reality is that these caucuses have been part of the nomination process for years, and everybody knew those were the rules going into it. I didn't hear people complaining about caucuses before the process started - but now some people (not referring to you desmoinesdem) seem to think they're illegitimate because their candidate is losing. Just like superdelegates, they're part of the system we've got -- we can talk about changing it in the future, but it is what it is for this year.

I think it does reflect a difference in candidate/campaign philosophies == Obama brings a community organizer's perspective to this, and his campaign was very methodical about building a very comprehensive organization in these states, putting folks on the ground here, harnessing grassroots energy, etc. I sense that the Clinton folks were counting on the long standing political ties they had in these states to produce votes (I hesitate to call it a "machine" approach, because that isn't what it is -- but it was about relying on existing political infrastructure to deliver for them). With caucus participation so much higher than in years past, Obama's ability to turn out so many new folks has overwhelming the Clinton campaign's reliance on party regulars and traditional power brokers.

It seems clear that Clinton can win caucuses (Nevada as the example) -- but they probably didn't expect the nomination battle to go on so long, so were woefully unprepared for the string of caucuses that were awaiting them - or the strength of Obama's organization.

My state (Virginia) has used both primaries and caucuses over the years. Both have advantages and disadvantages - caucuses help build a party infrastructure and allow party activists to weigh in on the nominee, primaries build up greater public interest and allow more people to participate.

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of pledged delegates will be allocated in primary elections - far outweighing the 13 or so caucus states.

Clearly the whole nomination process needs a severe overhaul on a national basis -- bit there is nothing inherently unfair or undemocratic about a caucus being part of that.


by lifelongdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (none / 0)

"Both have advantages and disadvantages - caucuses help build a party infrastructure and allow party activists to weigh in on the nominee, primaries build up greater public interest and allow more people to participate."

I agree with this part, but caucuses also force voters to declare their vote publically.  I think this practice marginalizes certain demographics - e.g. women.  They also favor upper, elite classes.

There are ways to build party infrastructure that don't have to include caucuses.

I agree with you in that the whole system is in need of a great overhaul. This cycle has been a complete clusterfrick.


by HypeJersey on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Prejudice? (none / 0)

Are you saying women and lower class people are more timid?  That's very prejudiced to say.


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (none / 0)

how does forcing voters to declare their vote publicly marginalize women? are you suggesting that women are too timid to stand up for their candidate?


by godemsin08 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (none / 0)

no, he's implying that women are gonna get beat by their husbands for supporting someone else.


by Soltare on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hum..... (2.00 / 1)

what does it matter if it were a primary or caucus? You have to play the hand you are dealt. Obama did not design the rules. He has been very smart and strategic in his approach to these elections. He has won 10 caucuses and 9 primaries. Hillary has won 9 primaries and 1 caucus (nevada)

Saying Obama wouldn't win by this big a margin if it were a primary is disingenuous because obviously if that was the hand Obama was dealt (primaries instead of caucuses) from the start, I guarantee you that he would have approached the elections differently, but still with a sound plan to win.


by rapcetera on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hum..... (1.00 / 0)

it matters b/c obama is probably going to lose to mccain in the GE. the terrible irony is that his caucus victories disguise that he is a poor national candidate yet are being used to justify his national viability. when was the last time a dem did not win in the primaries the majority of calif, illinois, ny, penn, nj, michigan, and florida and then won the ge?

just b/c hillary won them does not mean most of her voters will cross over to obama in the ge. the brutal truth is that obama's key base (african americans, who know hillary is not racist and better than mccain) will vote for hillary in the ge (his other key base, limo liberals, may not be so smart, i grant).

throw out watergate, which led to carter in '76, and ross perot, which led to clinton in '92, and we have not won since '64.

you think i would get used to losing by now but i have to watch the same dynamic play out every 4 years--even while we keep telling ourselves this time it is different. bush was laughing at obama today. in just a couple of sentnences he made obama look ridiculous to the ge voter.

obama has all the trappings of losing limo lib in the ge. when he loses his msm press conferred halo after hillary is dispatched, we'll be looking at the successor to kerry, gore, dukakis, mondale--you know the list.

and what happened in '80? lots of things--but one of them was surely limo lib lion kennedy trying to unseat a sitting president. and here he is in '08 bringing his "wisdom" to the party again.

very depressing.


by thetis on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hum..... (2.00 / 1)

I guess those 9 primary wins and the poll numbers showing Obama beating McCain by 7 points when Hillary ties also disguise how Obama will be crushed by McCain.


by beanbagz on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hum..... (none / 0)

Wow, nothing like calling a majority of the party "limousine libs". Classy.

throw out watergate, which led to carter in '76, and ross perot, which led to clinton in '92, and we have not won since '64.

Yeah, and if Bush hadn't been president for the last 8 years, our candidate would stand a much worse chance. Fortunately for us...

... and as an aside, throw out Watergate and Hillary Clinton probably wouldn't be involved in politics right now. Throw out the Boston Tea Party and we might be a British colony. Who cares about your fantasyland revisionist history?


by scvmws on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: revisionist history... (none / 0)

perhaps i didnt make myself clear. my point is that post-1964 it has been hard for the democrats to win. after 1964, the bad folks from the repub party and the bad folks from the democratic party formed this kind of uber-party that has won most of the elections by relying on the southern strategy--the one that depends on racism and its manipulation. lbj told bill moyers at the time that he signed the voting rights act that it will be forty years before the democratic party recovers.

i think hillary is a better candidate than obama. if you don't, fine. that's what primaries are for.

i will vote for obama if he gets the nomination and i will be thrilled if he wins--in part b/c it would end the years of wilderness lbj correctly predicted. i dont think that is going to happen--in part b/c he cant beat hillary in california (and cant win himself the key dem states now) and in part b/c i think mccain is a palatable soutehrn strategy candidate. he does not seem like a racist--limbaugh and colter hate him, some will note, and thus will think he cant be all bad. many posters more eloquent than i have elsewhere explained why obama is likley to lose the ge so i wont go into it again.

the limo lib line may seem to harsh. if so, i apologize. so-called limo liberals lose not b/c they are not good people or excellent public servants but b/c of the southern strategy and their inability to confront it politically. obama knows all this better than kerry or gore did so he may have a shot.

if hillary were not (to me) clearly the best candidate, i'd be more excited about taking a run at reversing post-1964 electoral history this year.

and i admit that i find it distressing that hillary has had to suffer so many sexist attacks and that obama has been the beneficiary of them, so far. i wish he'd make a stand against that stuff but he is not going to b/c it would cost him votes.  

and those of you who cant see this point may just have to settle for being surprised in november. i prefer that i am the one who is wrong but for nearly the past fifty years, betting against lbj's insight has not been a winner. indeed, hillary got pilloried for pointing out that lbj's (surprising) commitment to equality was brave and costly.  


by thetis on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: revisionist history... (none / 0)

If Mickey Mouse was the Democratic nominee, he would win California this November. New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts also. More interesting from my perspective is Clinton's strength in Arkansas and Tennessee. Now those would be great pickups. And of course Florida (but we don't really know what would happen there in a full campaign) and Ohio (we'll see soon enough).


by dmc2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (none / 0)

You sure educated us on what it takes to win the caucus states.  I'm not sure how many of these people were listening, though!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me get this straight (none / 0)

Why would such an experience politician make such a mistake?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:04:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

Well, she is doing well in Maine: after 3 30-point losses, she's only losing by 15 points right now.


by Nautilator on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice spin, but (none / 0)

the demographics in Maine favor her, unlike a Washington State.


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

it might hit 20 points at this rate.


by rapcetera on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (none / 0)

I really did think this would be the one Obama "swing and miss" - thought it would be a 3-5 pt Obama loss...

If he wins my double digits, then I'm really starting to think he's pulling away.

Obama may need to start running as "frontrunner" before the Potomac Primary.

Of course -- with all 3 Tuesday contests being primaries, that might be a good thing.


by zonk on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:28:59 PM EST

Whoa nelly! (none / 0)

No, we are the UNDERDOG.  In fact, Hillary is "supposed" to win Virginia, just like she is "supposed" to win Maine today.


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa nelly! (none / 0)

no one says hillary will win virginia.
 but all the polls said hillary would win maine
by Soltare on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

My prediction was 58 to 42 percent in favor of Obama. The media is going to have fun picking apart what is wrong with the Clinton campaign.


by Djneedle83 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:29:48 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Mine was 54-46 in favor of Obama. i guess it's gonna be higher than that


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:32:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Obama is the frontrunner. No way he can call himself an underdog anymore.


by Cheebs on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:30:17 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 2)

But he is NOT the establishment candidate


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

He will be if/when he takes a lead in Superdelegates.

I actually wish there were little graphic tallies for superdelegates / pledged delegates (rather than that FL/MI foolishness with superdelegates in both) -- the two are measures of entirely different kinds of support, and it's interesting to see where the candidates are strong institutionally vs. organizationally.


by scvmws on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 0)

There's a great blog that tracks the delegates and superdelegates -- they keep a running charts that breaks them out (as well as listing all the superdelegates individually and who they have declared for)

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/

I think they are the best place for objective info about delegate counts


by lifelongdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow (none / 0)

She better wins this. The headline from Drudge showed her dead or sleeping?


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:30:32 PM EST

Re: wow (2.00 / 0)

Obama backers take their cues from Drudge? Sad.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice broad brushing (2.00 / 2)


by pg4obama on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brush schmush! (none / 0)

Wow, you know us so well. And yet, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing you until you trollrated me.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brush schmush! (none / 0)

Holy shit, I can't believe you'd make such an offensive comment.  Get the hell out of here.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brush schmush! (none / 0)

That is way out of line.  We're all on the same team.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow (none / 0)

Ha ha I think that is a Hillary volunteer. I don't think Hillary would sleep on the floor.


by animated on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Apparently Portland hasn't even been reported yet. This is looking like an embarassing blowout in the NE in a race that was supposed to be close.

There's just too many elections close together that favor Obama for Hillary to turn this around. Maybe after Wisconsin the two weeks before Ohio/Texas will be enough, but I don't know.


by Progressive America on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:31:48 PM EST

Re: SHe made the schedule (none / 0)

But her own sword is killing her. Ironic


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

If Obama can sweep the rest of the month (and Wisconsin will be the challenge, although I think he closes that race and its a close win for him), and he can win either Texas or Ohio, I think he takes the nomination.  If she wins both comfortably, then we are back where we were after NH... in a dead heat.  A close finish (less than 5 points) in both would be a good finish as well for Obama although not as good as a win.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

As someone who grew up in Wisconsin, I just have a hard time believing that Clinton will win it when all is said and done.  I think Obama gets huge margins in Madison and Milwaukee, and that that is enough to win the state.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

True and I think Obama will take a lot of Southern Wisconsin which is more Chicago than Milwaukee anyway... The polls are what have mme worried right now is all.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

the arg polls?
 ha
by Soltare on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Buddy, relax. Hillary's an opponent, not an enemy.


by MNPundit on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:32:20 PM EST

Looks like my prediction was way off (none / 0)

Thought it was going to be close, in the single digits. I guess New Hampshire and Massachusetts got me a bit wary of New England.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:33:12 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 2)

If he does win this, it will be for one reason.  Not because it was a caucus, or rural, or whatever.  It will be because the damn flatlanders thought they understood New England, when in reality they just understood mass and NH.  New England is like a family, a very unique family.  Vermont (my home state) is the independent artist, Maine is the independent tough guy, Connecticut is the sometimes prissy (Lieberman) debutante, Rhode Island is the baby, mass is the boring technocrat, and new Hampshire is the creepy loner no one likes, but pretends to because he has power.  Without their laughably small coast, and primary no one would give a fig about New Hampshire.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:33:57 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Interesting analogy.  What are NH and Mass then?


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

The creepy loner no one likes (NH) and the boring technocrat (MASS).  Oh, and if you visit Maine, don't go anywhere east of Bangor, TRUST ME.  Nothin' but pine trees and busted up old shacks.  Nice for a weekend, horrible for a year.  though I thoroughly recommend you visit Stephen kings house, and other places, which will all be explained in Doug Tuttle's guide to new England 2008, coming to bookstores someday, maybe   ;)


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't Bar Harbor East of Bangor? (none / 0)


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Bar Harbor East of Bangor? (none / 0)

yeah, it's okay, but it takes FOREVER to get to.  nice weekend destination if you enjoy lighthouses, lobster and have a lot of time on your hands.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't Bar Harbor East of Bangor? (none / 0)

Acadia is my favorite national park in the entire US.  Well worth the time it takes to get there, but I live in the west now so it takes a good long time to get anywhere by Eastern standards.


by bhirsh26 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I've been to maine... not sure where Bar Harbor is but I enjoyed it very much.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

Tell that to Killington! ; )


by davisb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

Killington is in VT, not NH


by lifelongdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

Killington has been (humorously) trying for years to secede to NH.


by davisb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

that's because they don't want to pay their taxes.  to be fair, vermont's been trying to become a country for years now, it just never goes anywhere.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

Ah yes, the Republic of Vermont (1777-1791) returns.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the creepy loner no one likes?? (none / 0)

thanks... I missed the reference


by lifelongdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Are the state primary processes essentially the same as when Bill Clinton ran for the presidency?  The reason I ask is because one would think that Hillary would know what was necessary to win in these types of environments, but her caucus record is simply atrocious.  I just don't get it.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:34:35 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I'm fairly sure that there are many more caucuses now than in 1992 and 1996.  I believe several states switched because they are cheaper... I could be wrong of course, but I believe this to be the case.

I don't think Hillary is bad, I think Obama's group and experience in Organizing plays well to those strengths... so its not that she is bad, he is just much better.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 2)

I think her campaign knows how to win caucuses. They just never thought they'd have to. They figured she was the inevitable nominee, and that the caucuses would just fall in line. Bad strategy obviously. Obama's campaign knew they would have to wage a war of delegate attrition to have any shot against such a well known establishment candidate. They planned for it well in advance, and it is obviously paying off.


by godemsin08 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From Steve Clemons (none / 0)

These numbers come from Steve Clemons, so I can't vouch for accuracy.  Still, a nice weekend for Obama.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archive s/002833.php

No hard numbers yet, but Obama wins Houlton by about 20 votes.

Obama wins Rockport, carrying 8 delegates to Hillary's 3.
Obama takes Fryeburg 67 to 17
Obama takes York 414 to 225
Clinton takes Rumford 52 to 37
Clinton takes Dixfield 16 to 14
Clinton takes Mexico 27 16
Clinton takes Byron 1 to 0
Obama takes Hanover 6 to 2
Obama takes Gardiner 129 47 with 2 uncommitted
Clinton takes Old Orchard Beach 134 to 128
Obama takes Hampden 179 to 70
Obama takes Wilton 87 to 30
Obama takes Cape Elizabeth 550 to 217
Obama takes Deer Island 6 to 1
Obama takes Winterport 7 to 4
Obama takes Machiasport 2 delegates to 1O
Obama takes Ellsworth 184 to 100
Obama takes Bristol 7 to 2
Obama takes Bangor (District 15) 16 to 8
Obama takes Presque Isle 63 to 60
Obama takes Stonington 48 to 24
Obama takes Scarborough 401 to 283


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:34:52 PM EST

Obama won a Grammy! (none / 0)

and Maine


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:35:20 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

Just out of curiousity, where is it that Hillary wins before Ohio and Texas?  

The media narrative this week is going to be just brutal.  Campaign shakeup, potential Edwards endorsement of Obama, eight losses in a row.  Given that the media wasn't predisposed to like her campaign, this is trouble.

Frankly, if she loses MD, DC, VA and then WI and Hawaii, providing ten losses in a row, I'm not sure she wins either Texas or Ohio.


by ChrisR on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:40:23 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I would say Wisconsin or Virginia is her best hope... Yeah I know Virginia polls have been very heavy Obama, BUT I fear the fast close like in NH.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Wisconsin is a much better bet than Virginia.

But here's the thing:

this weekend's results have an effect on Tue.  Tue has an effect on next Tue.

I'm not talking specifically about a "bump", but it just reaches a point where if Obama takes a 100+ delegate lead, the endorsements and money that HRC once could count on goes away.

To say nothing of Hillary having a horrific time getting her message out.  Monday's TV stories will be "beaten soundly by Obama in five contests and her campaign in disarray, Sen. Clinton arrived in Virginia to desperately attempt to focus the campaign on health care."  Ditto Wed (except it will be eight contests, not five).  And possibly Thur.

And her going negative?  I'm not sure it will look particularly good now -- it'll look desperate.


by ChrisR on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

yeah well, lets not a call a Clinton dead until we actually see them dead... They have more lives than a comic book villian.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Edwards could just as easily endorse Clinton. As an Obama supporter, I'm not counting on it.


by godemsin08 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I don't think there will be a call Jonathan until around 7 or 8pm EST.  There are caucuses in Maine that don't start until 6:00pm according to the Maine Dems website.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:41:24 PM EST

Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (none / 0)

Leave aside for a moment the question of who we should support, and look at how we try to predict the outcome of the state contests.

And, honestly, Obama did a lot better than I expected.

In particular, I thought WA was going to be close, and I thought that because I expected him to win about half the white vote, large majorities among Af-Am voters, and to win only 30-40% among Latinos and As-Ams (who are about 15% of the Dem electorate in WA).  Well, I haven't seen exit polls, but based on the raw numbers he must have done much better among whites, and possibly among the other groups.  That may be an emerging pattern in the West and Mountain States, which means the $60 million question is whether it'll be true in the midwest as well.

What I'll be watching over the next week is how he does among middle-income whites in VA, MD and WI.  If he shows strength there, I think HRC is in real trouble - she needs those voters to go to her in droves to win OH and PA.

So - have you done any navel-gazing?  I think it's fair to say you saw Obama doing even worse than I did.  Jerome's bottom-line prediction was for Obama to win 3 of five contests over the weekend and pick up about 10 delegates, net, on Clinton.  In fact, he won 5 of 5 - all of them blowouts - and picked up what looks to be about 45, net.

So - to the extent you can tell - where did you go wrong?


by TL on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:46:44 PM EST

Re: Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (2.00 / 4)

Jerome serves up some of the best pro-Hillary spin on the interent, I look forward to reading his response.  

With the anti-Obama spinsters, these are usually good places to start...

  1. Obama only won because of the black vote, so who cares?
  2. Obama only won because it was a red state, so who cares?
  3. Obama only won because of the latte liberal vote, so who cares?
  4. Obama only won because it was a caucus, so who cares?
  5. Obama only won because of the youth vote, so who cares?

Pick which explanations you like, and then talk about how great everything is for Hillary.


by skipos on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (2.00 / 0)

there's an easier way to do this.  a state only counts if hillary wins it.  it's as simple as that.  the really appalling thing is how obama thinks he can win by using undemocratic tricks, like getting more people to vote for him.  he thinks he can win... by winning!  (kudos to the great Colbert)


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (2.00 / 0)

You forgot:

6. Obama only won because it was an open primary and independents could vote, so who cares?


by stuckinsf on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (2.00 / 0)

The real question is how long will be before Jerome posts his prediction of Hillary winning in Virginia.  And once Obama has won that one, how long will it take for him to predict Wisconsin for Hillary.  And when Obama wins there, when will we see his prediction of Hillary victories in Ohio and Texas.  

With stunning insights such at these it won't be long before Jerome's reputation as an oracle is almost as revered as true gold standard-- Zogby!!!


by geothenes on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd and Jerome - a question about predictions (none / 0)

This is just too funny and exactly exactly right. Washington was going to be closer than 60-40, per Jerome yesterday.

Based on?

Wanting it to be?

Political consultants are only as good as their ability to be objective, to look at data be honest about what they're seeing, and they have to be able to put aside their personal preferences  (by the way, it would be nice if they'd acknowledge them, rather then pretending to be unaligned).


by Cobalt on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

Wow.  I have been making calls for Barack ALl weekend, with tepid results at best.  i thought Hillary would win this one rather easily.

Make no mistake though...the insiders and the establishment in particular still are on HRC's side, and she still has to be considered the favorite because of it.  


by a gunslinger on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:49:24 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Guess you called the wrong people ;-)


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

They really shouldn't be announcing results until the polls close.


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:50:13 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

But do the potential voters already have to be at the caucus?


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 0)

Ya'll, these results are with only 44% reporting.  Lets not go overboard and decide that Obama has won Maine yet.  I, for one, am still nervous about this one.  IF he wins it, that's fantastic though, as I had this marked as a likely narrow loss.  


by HSTruman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:52:48 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

59% now. Clinton needs to win the rest by about 2-to-1 to pull it out.


by PantherDem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I'll feel better when a few places call it.  Look what happened with missouri the other night.  But point taken.


by HSTruman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I usually feel comfortable using the 2-to-1 metric when a majority has reported, but I can't blame you for not counting your chickens.

Of course, even a narrow win for either Clinton or Obama is a huge victory for the latter. For all this talk about how he doesn't manage expecttions, that memo spun a whole lot of people.


by PantherDem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

They won't call it for a while... Some precints aren't caucusing until 6pm EST.  They JUST started.  When they are done it will be called.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

I am ready to make a projection. Obama will win Maine and hence Hillary's campaign is in deep trouble. With 59% reporting he's leading by 15%


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:54:52 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 2)

The Obama campaign finally nailed the expectations game. The "leaked" memo was a pretty crafty move and many people seemed to fall for it. I doubt they are surprised by any of the results this weekend, which makes their predictions of huge wins for Clinton in Texas and Ohio questionable.


by Hadi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:00:06 PM EST

Re: you damn right!!! (none / 0)

I was about to say that when I see you got it first damn you,lol!! That was very astute and clever!!!!

We need a diary about this leak memo. Way to go Obama!


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Obama had problems on super tuesday with expectations. This memo really turned that around. Genius.


by Cheebs on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:08:14 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

not so much predictions, but zogby.  if the media had paid attention to surveyusa instead of those idiots at zogby, the expectations would have been much more reasonable.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Yeah but the campaign didnt play them down the way the clintons did which was a mistake.  There is no doubt that accident was on purpose.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The money's called it already (none / 0)

The betting public at Intrade will be mighty diappointed if Clinton wins it now: Obama wins ME is trading (on low but not insignificant volume) at 98%


by seand on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:17:08 PM EST

Re: The money's called it already (none / 0)

InTrade seems to be more reactive than anything.  It doesn't possess any magical insight not found on sites such as this.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The money's called it already (none / 0)

That's certainly right; but it does do a fairly good job of providing a simple, easily observed numerical metric of common sense- as if they were taking a running poll of people who pay attention to these things. It'd be better if volumes were a little higher.


by seand on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The money's called it already (none / 0)

Scratch 'common sense' and put 'conventional wisdom'


by seand on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The money's called it already (none / 0)

True.  If I remember right, Kerry was up 70/30 over Bush when the first exit polls came out in the 2004 election.  The rest of the night saw a steady shift to Bush as his victory was confirmed.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

People on both sides have been troll-rated here.  It's the closest primary in many of our lives; partisans are feisty.  What do you expect?


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:17:14 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Just stick to reading Jerome's posts:  all pro-Hillary all the time.


by skipos on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:19:36 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Yeah, MyDD should be reserved for classless, gloating Clinton supporters. (I'm not saying you are one, just that it's ridiculous to imply that such behavior is limited to Obama supporters, especially on this site.)


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:20:45 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

You people are hysterical.  You should have seen the people at the Obama rally and the caucus I attended.  Many, many working class people, volunteer firefighters, folks from the VFW -- for Obama.

Clinton's folks were older people, mostly women.  Many,many women for Obama.

You knew nothing about Maine politics and culture and yet you were so sure Clinton would win.

I saw some people say Clinton was advantaged because the Governor supported her, obviously without them knowing that the Gov's popularity is way, way down, even among Dems.


by mainelib on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:27:23 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

We had the same experience yesterday in Seattle, the group for Obama was very diverse - young, old, male, female, first timers, old timers, white, black.  The only perceivable pattern was on the Clinton side - mostly middle age and older white women - and not many of them.  


by ruskin on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

There was a wide diversity of people supporting Hillary both in the caucus I attended and at her rally. You seem to be implying that there was something wrong with the fact that women and especially older women supported Hillary in your caucuses. Have we become outsiders now? Are we people you don't want to associate with? Then don't call me to phone bank in October like I have in other years. You apparently can do it without my help.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

You people are hysterical.  You should have seen the people at the Obama rally and the caucus I attended.  Many, many working class people, volunteer firefighters, folks from the VFW -- for Obama.

The class thing is particularly mystifying to me -- it's like a weird folk wisdom thing, like that the proletariat can tell that Hillary's genuine and that Obama isn't or something.

The primary is useful for explaining coalitions in each state, but it varies pretty widely. I keep hearing people claim that "the working class is for Hillary," but time has shown that to be basically just meaningless spin. Class, age, race, gender, partisanship, issue profiles, etc all play greater or lesser roles everywhere.


by scvmws on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)


Nothing make sense to me with these Maine polling result. First of all the polls have not closed yet, secondly,no county has reported any return on polling whatsoever according to CNN Election Center but they report a 59% polling return. My question is: What does all their reporting mean?
by abudho on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:27:58 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Some caucuses began earlier than others. They report when they finish.


by PantherDem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade is thousands times more (none / 0)

accurate than Jerome. has he ever been right???


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:28:11 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Obama beats Bill Clinton again by winning the Grammys


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:30:36 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

That's because he is the rock star candidate.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

NBC calls it! (none / 0)

Obama pulls off the upset win


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:35:01 PM EST

BTW (2.00 / 0)

Maine is THE whitest state in the nation, so please don't even try to spin this one.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:35:35 PM EST

Re: BTW (2.00 / 0)

No, no, you're not up on your spin. Obama wins when there are lots of black voters and also when there are almost none. It's only when there's a "normal" number of black voters that Clinton can win, but those are then "normal" states, as opposed to the weird ones that are too black or too white, so those are the only states that really count.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BTW (none / 0)

I think people are missing the point.

Maine clearly has been overrun by latte-drinking African Americans.


by ChrisR on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think caucus delegates should be seated (none / 0)

I don't think Caucus delegates should be seated. At caucuses people have to show up at a specific time (which will be impossible for some, no matter which time is chosen), Often wait in line for hour in the cold (which makes the old and people with family drop out) and get bullied by young straight men to vote in a specific way.

I didn't realize that there were any caucuses outside of Iowa. I thought they allowed that anachronism to exist so they could stay ahead of  New Hampshire. Never knew that the Democratic Party would allow that many votes to be suppressed and extorted.


by maxstar on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:40:27 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

I think the issue is a little more complex than that.  Regardless, there doesn't seem to be much outcry in the caucus states themselves to change matters, so perhaps your concerns are overblown.  There haven't been any real recorded incidents of vote suppression or extortion that I'm aware of, and all of the complaints you mentioned could also be made about traditional primaries.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think caucus delegates should be seate (none / 0)

Wow... I actually feel stupider after reading this comment.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think caucus delegates should be seate (none / 0)

LOL


by soros on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:59:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

I thought Iowa was the whitest state in the nation.

But it's not about race, age, or gender.

It's about Shuster baby!!!

And I'm only partially kidding. There is NOTHING that will turn off an electorate faster than perceived insincerity. Ask Mittens. Ask Mr. 911. And for that matter, ask Edwards and Kerry. I believe them to be deeply sincere, but they were defeated because the opposition successfully FRAMED them as being insincere.

Hillary crying prude on the use of "pimp" by the most liberal reporter on television?

And what was it she said when her husband ___.

No one (except me) framed it that way, but no one had to because it's so FREAKING OBVIOUS! That frame is burned into everyone's brain and it either makes HRC look good or bad, depending on her sincerity.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:43:07 PM EST

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Shuster is not the 'most' liberal commentator and Hillary was not being a prude. She was angry because of Shuster's stupid reamrk about her daughter. I guess she doesn't get to be a human being from where you stand.

This is just the sort of thing that makes me wonder if you have received your candidate's message or not? Didn't he say, "That's why I believe that we are not as divided as our politics suggests; that the dream we share is more powerful than the differences we have."  Doesn't he want you to reach out? Doesn't he want you to be considerate? Or is there some fine print about how all of that doesn't apply to Hillary Clinton?

If you want Clinton supporters to come to Obama if he wins the nomination, this is not the way to do it.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:23:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (none / 0)

Boy, do I hate comments like this.

Do you understand how silly you sound?  You're really considering not voting for a particular candidate just because of the way anonymous people on an internet website are behaving?

People need to lighten up around here.


by goodnbad on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maine Caucus Results Thread (2.00 / 1)

Schuster's comment was WAY WAY out of line.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

current results (none / 0)

70% reporting...Obama 58%, Clinton 41%


by supsupsup on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:45:57 PM EST

Re: current results (none / 0)

Going, going, gone...


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's rough month (none / 0)

Terry Mcauliffe didn't think about Obama when he tailored the schedule for the inevitable frontrunner Hillary. Ooooo she was suppposed to the AA votes and wrap up the nomination by Super Tuesday


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:56:04 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

CNN calls it for Obama


by poserM on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:56:51 PM EST

Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Does anyone honestly think that a primary in Washington state would have netted Obama 70 percent of the vote? Obama did not even garner that percent of the vote in his home state! The "feeding frenzy" style of caucus voting is not anywhere indicative of personal feeling, but instead is part and parcel of overarching political trends and cultural phenomenons. It is the least pure form of democracy that exists today. IN fact, caucuses are best suited as celebrations, not processes on which presidential nominations should be based.

When Clinton manages to win OH, TX and PA and convinces the necessary number of superdelegates to back her, I'm sure Mark Penn and her other operatives will be using reasoning along the same lines.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:58:41 PM EST

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (2.00 / 0)

Note the internal inconsistency.  You criticize caucuses for being undemocratic and then expect the super delegates to come to the rescue.

All the excuses for the losses are getting tiresome.  You do know that absentee ballots were counted in Maine, right?  I guess people from the Obama "machine" must have strong-armed those people, too.  If the caucuses were so unfair, maybe you should have argued that the Clinton campaign should have withdrawn from the ballot in caucus states, since they could never represent the "true will" of the voters.  If she had won, I'm sure you wouldn't be making this criticism.  The fact that you're only making it now proves my point.

The candidates have to play the hand they were dealt, not complain about rules that were agreed to a long time ago.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Your argument is self-referential. Superdelegates are independent. They can vote in the manner that they feel is most appropriate to the future of the country. Furthermore, I don't excuse these losses. There's no way you can excuse a lose. Hillary's a winner, and when she loses, as in this weekend, there's no sugarcoating that.

With respect to the rules, the superdelegates are allowed to be swayed in whatever manner is appropriate. And my comment was dealing with the fact that Clinton will use my caucus argument in swaying the superdelegates against siding with Obama. Finally, when a candidate wins California by 10 percent and with a majority of the vote, that is a clear indication that the largest state republic which consistently votes Democratic in presidential general elections, backs that candidate with clear and specific voting coalitions on which a victory in November will be based.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

A state that consistently votes Democratic is a state that will vote for the Democratic candidate in November, regardless of who that is.  Unless you have ironclad proof that these coalitions would not vote for Obama, your faith in California's choice for the nomination is fallacious.  Spin it however you want, but Obama has a lead in the popular vote, a lead in states won, a lead in pledged delegates, and is winning a hypothetical matchup with McCain in recent polls (albeit nine months out).  It is ludicrous to assume that Clinton has any meaningful leverage at this point, particularly if her strategy is to antagonize the caucus states by somehow implying that their results are illegitimate.  


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Caucus states' results are, as I said, "the least pure of democracy." I did not call them undemocratic. It is a nuanced argument. You are trying to make it a cut and dry argument by putting caucuses on the same level as primaries, and I am saying, no, while they may both be forms of legitimate political exercise, they are not both equally reflective of the will of any state's Democratic voting electorate.

And no, you cannot make the argument that states which consistently vote Democratic will do the same in November for our nominee.  McCain is very attractive in California because the California electorate is comprised of a fair number of independent voters, some who actually voted in the California Democratic primary. What I am saying is that because a majority coalition backed Hillary, that that is substantial proof that Hillary will carry that same coalition in the coming general election. It may be possibly that McCain's coalition is more powerful, we will have to see.

Obama does not have a lead in the popular vote because MI and FL have been left out. And they will be counted, based on how they have already voted. Finally, nine months out is a long time. Dukakis had a 17 point lead on Bush coming out of the convention.

Also, Hillary does not antagonize. She masterminds.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

This argument is too nuanced for super delegates to side with one candidate over another, in my opinion.  Many people will believe that super delegates unfairly "threw" the election, if they side with a candidate who is not ahead in delegates going into the convention.  Saying that caucuses are a lesser form of democracy simply is not a compelling argument.  You would almost have to draw the distinctions I did for such an argument to have any traction.  

I think you are seriously mistaken with regards to traditional Democratic strongholds, though I hope McCain subscribes to this line of thought.  He will be wasting his money, much like Bush did in New Jersey in 2004.

I also beg to differ on the popular vote.  This was the total as of Wednesday, per NBC:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/02/06/643412.aspx

This shows a difference between the candidates of approximately 130,000 votes.  Note that this does not reflect the popular vote of caucus states (if you click the link on the page, you will see that they only count the delegates from those states, not the popular vote).  It DOES include votes from MI and FL (and votes for 'Other' in MI are not reflected in Obama's total).  I submit that Obama has surpassed Clinton in total votes based on this weekend's results and the actual results in caucus states.  When you factor in Tuesday's presumed results, I am even more confident in this prediction.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:04:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Clinton and Obama are lobbying the superdelegates behind the scenes right now. Let's see who's more persuasive.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

You seem to suffer under some sort of delusion that Hillary is the most beloved Democrat in the party today.  She isn't.  Not by a long shot.  She and Bill made a LOT of enemies over the years in the party.  If/When Obama gets a lead big enough to absorb FL and MI, my guess is you will see a lot of SDs migrate his way.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

I once suffered from delusions of grandeur, but a succession of girlfriends relieved me of that misconception.

No, I do not suffer from the delusion that the man who brought back the Democratic Party from 12 years of hell under Reagan/Bush would be Public Enemy No. 1 within the party.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

When you are defending using superdelegates to usurp the primary systems choice, or using rule breaking credential changes to do the same, remember you are not trying to convince me, I don't matter.

You trying to convince the people that would have had to switch to the party to get a Democrat elected in the general. You will have to convince all the excited idealistic people who are out now, working their asses off ---- in Maine.
They wont be with you, they wont be swayed as easily as some here.

Please consider what you might be supporting, it might be much worse than the loss of the next election.


by inexile on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Aren't primaries also "part and parcel of overarching political trends and cultural phenomenons".  I understand they are a different dynamic than a secret ballot primary, but they are subject to the same "overarching political trends", just look at the 20 point Obama win in LA or the 25 point win in South Carolina.  Are they discredited like Washington and Nebraska for another reason?

Also, no sour grapes on California.  Clinton scored a great victory there, and it is an important state, but it is still just one state in a union of many that have had different, but just as legitimate results.


by bhirsh26 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Obama's huge primary wins in the South are attributable to the fact that the only people who vote Democratic in the Deep South are black people. I don't take pride in making such a stark assessment, but if you look at the Upper South, like AR and TN, which don't have as substantial black populations as the Deep South states, Hillary won big. Also, these Upper South states have not partaken in the wholesale abandonment of the Democratic party on the federal level as the Deep South states have.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Hillary won big in Missouri?


by beanbagz on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Actually she did--in the rural areas and exurbs--but got trounced in St. Louis.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

And he won handily the rural districts of Nevada.  And of course he won the rural states of Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, North Dakota....


by Piuma on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Congrats to Obama there. But again, Dems in the Interior West and Great Plains have not seen a Democratic presidential victor in their states in almost fifty years. I think Obama's candidacy resonates with them because he definitely is something new. But let's be honest: of the states you mention, Obama has the greatest shot of only carrying Nevada in the GE.

I'm not saying that those states don't count, but in my opinion the Dem electorate in the Interior West and Great Plains wants to make a statement: that while they want Obama to be President, more importantly, they definitely want to see Bush gone and a new dawn in Washington.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

And Obama will either carry or can carry every state Hillary has won.  Its a ridiculous argument.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

I hadn't been aware that AA votes shouldn't count... Why didn't we just cancel the primary?


by labor nrrd on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

I'm not saying that about the Southern primaries.  Obama won fair and square.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

I understand what you are saying.  However, I think that Arkansas had a homestate dynamic going on more than anything else.  Tennessee you are right.  It will be interesting to see what happens in Virginia on Tuesday.  If Obama wins big in a trending blue state in the upper South, it counteracts the argument you make about Tennessee.


by bhirsh26 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Virginia is not Upper South. It is a mid-Atlantic Southern state.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)


Wow. I didn't realize I was black. How could I get to be 38 years old without knowing that? Thanks for the info.
by godemsin08 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 05:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Oh yes, if there's one thing we learned in 2000 and in 2004, it's that one state should decide it all.


by Nautilator on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cacuses Are Shouting Matches (none / 0)

Caucuses are democratic in the widest definition of the word. They are not well-balanced, however. Many people can't come to them, and they aren't suited to people who aren't comfortable speaking in (or being yelled at by) crowds. The caucuses were a great help to the Obama campaign; he has earned those votes. However, he would not have earned so many if all the caucuses were primaries. Both sides have complaints: Clinton about the imbalance in the caucuses and Obama about the potential super-delegates.

The main losers in all of this are the average Democrats. The conflict is making me, a diehard political junkie always deeply involved in volunteering and mobilizing, want to just leave the country until next year. A few months ago it was exciting. Now it's just a bummer.


by bently2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (2.00 / 3)

Congrats on a win Obama


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:14:24 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

And good luck to your candidate.  We all know this race is far from over.  To be honest this campaign has made me feel a lot more postive about Hillary.  If she wins the nomination, I will be proud to vote for her.

After NH, just coming in and saying congratulations was the last thing I wanted to do.  People on all sides tend to get a little heated during the primary battles.  We are all passionate about our candidates.  So even though we support different candidates we are on the same side, keep up the fight for what you believe in.

The democrats will beat McCain in Nov either way.


by labor nrrd on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (2.00 / 0)

Everyone almost across the board has agreed caucuses are undemocratic and a terrible way to choose our nominee. There are no caucuses in the GE. Only primaries, which Obama cannot seem to win in Democratic blue states.

What is getting tiresome is Obamabots not thinking about the ge and acting like the primary will be the end of the fight. The pubs are not going to lay down their arms because Obama is so inspirational. They will smear him and beat him badly.

The superdelegates will take the primary vs. caucus thing into account when they are deciding to cast their votes. They HAVE to. their loyalties are to the party...not to the messiah, Obama.


by americanincanada on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:15:43 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Are you honestly implying that Obama would not win "blue states" like NY, MA, and CA in the general election?  You have to know how ridiculous that argument is.  What an insult to the collective intelligence of the people on this board.

I guess we have to re-do the whole primary now that the results aren't going someone's way.  Do everyone a favor: tell us which states count and which don't, and we'll have the candidates only campaign in those states. I have a feeling that all of the primaries Obama's won, and will win on Tuesday, don't count, and all of the ones that Clinton has won do count (including the Nevada caucus).  Funny how that is.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

 Well, anyone who wipes the floor with Hillary in four very diverse states strikes me as strong enough and tough enough to beat McCain.  Hillary did not give Obama the lead in the race, Obama took it away.

Boo to Obamabots and Clintonistas, and to those who use those terms.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Will that change if he can win in Maryland on Tuesday?


by bhirsh26 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

I have no issues with Caucuses.  Let each state decide what they want.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Not only is this inaccurate and tiresome, it doesn't even make sense. Unless you think a person can become president by winning only the blue states, the way Kerry did?


by Nautilator on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

What's with the Obamabot and Hillarybot comments on this blog? Are we not all adults here? I swear, it's like an argument on a playground. Grow up.


by godemsin08 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: White vote (2.00 / 1)

No, because it was in a caucus and caucuses don't count.  Unless it's the Nevada caucus, in which case it does count.


by rfahey22 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:25:27 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Excellent night.  Going from a probable Hillary win to a 20 point win for Obama is huge news.  Hopefully this bodes well for Tuesday.


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:27:26 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Less than 40k people voted in the Maine caucus out of a population of 1.3 million.


by suskin on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:34:20 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

snow alway lowers the vote count


by Soltare on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Little known fact ... (none / 0)

It only snows on Hillary supporters.


by Callimaco on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

It was a Sunday and people could send in absentees if they wanted. If they didn't then that's their fault.


by Progressive America on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

got 2 jobs? work 6 days a week? 7? no car? 3 kids? no money for child care? single parent? sick/ disabled? elderly parent you care for? can't squeeze all the errands into the few hours you have off? not fluent in english? not confident around authoritative young men? afraid of getting pushed around and yelled at? afraid to vote if there's no privacy? have to ride the bus the caucus?  don't know when you'll get out?

OR

college boy?  young professional? middle aged successful professional? nice warm car?  flexible schedule? you're in charge of your own schedule? tapped into the local political community? confident and well-spoken? the leisure to follow the talking points so you can pipe up with them?

Whose constituencies do these sound like?


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:11:35 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

I don't know about other parts of the country but the tradition of a town meeting type format runs deep in New England.  People show up in the worst weather to argue and vote about comunity issues.  Why should showing up to caucus be any different?  Give the old, disabled, working poor, etc., the credit to know what they want and endure some discomfort to get it.


by mady on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Organized

OR

Unorganized

Whose campaigns do these sound like?


by supsupsup on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

In all previous years it would have been presumed that caucuses greatly favored Hillary because the only people that went to them were party insiders and retirees.

I'm thinking if that conventional wisdom still held this year the Clinton supporters wouldn't be whining about the caucus system quite so loudly.


by Callimaco on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Then cast an absentee ballot.


by goodnbad on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

  We know, we know...it doesn't count.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Damned college boys... I'll bet they drink wine, too. And out a bottle, instead of a box. Imagine! And all the while intimidating meek, elderly, disabled, 2-job-working, 7-kid-raising, bus-hating, non-anglophone, Hillarinos so much that they all switch their votes in the middle of a caucus?

Oh please is right... this sort of thing gives the honorable Dem tradition of so-called 'class warfare' a bad name.  

[Seriously, is there any actual evidence saying that single parents, sick people, bus-riders, or that oh-so-important 'afraid of confident young men' demographic support Clinton?]


by seand on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

I get it now.

Maine has been completely overrun by unemployed, slacker, latte-swilling African-Americans.


by ChrisR on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

the fact that Hillary's strongest constituency is white middle age and middle class women does not speak well of her candidacy. I've been to a couple of Obama events, and the one thing that strikes me the most is the diversity that composes the crowds. It's black, white, brown, asian, young, old, women and men, vets and anti-war....This is pretty much consistent with what I've gathered from the people supporting Obama all over the country.

By the way, I traveled about two hours to be able to vote for Obama this past tuesday.


by AnthonyMason on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

CBS News is reporting that Obama is ahead in delgate counted INCLUDING SUPERDELEGATES!!!

"In the delegate chase, Obama has pulled ahead of Clinton, even when the support of uncommitted super delegates is figured in. According to CBS News estimates, Obama holds a razor-thin lead with 1,134 delegates overall to 1,131 for Clinton."

Yikes! I don't know where they get their numbers but if it's true Hillary has 3 weeks of getting further and further behind. She is not going to be able to get herself out from behind the eight ball with money problems, staff problems, delegate count problems and primary win problems.

We may have just witnessed the tipping point.


by CB Todd on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:06:22 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

No, that's true.  It's on Real Clear Politics.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Maybe, maybe not. CNN has Clinton ahead by 27 total delegates.

But after the Chesapeake primaries, he probably will start pulling ahead.


by Nautilator on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Let'see the results so far Link to delegate results here:

From pre-2/5:  Obama 15 pledged delegates ahead (1 Iowa, 1 Nevada, 13 South Carolina)

From post-2/5:  

Feb 9:  45 delegates gained, Obama
Feb 10: 6 delegates gained, Obama

Now, 2/5:  Some still contested, but currently up 9, and will probably be (with Illinois, Alabama, and Americans Abroad coming in) at least another 15.

15+15+45+6= 81 pledged delegates ahead for Obama.

So Obama is CURRENTLY - before this Tuesday - 81 pledged delegates ahead, in ACTUAL contests competed in by both camps. (and yes, I am, for the purposes of THIS comment, not mentioning superdelegates).

Just an fyi - even if one posits that Clinton wins the delegate competition in Ohia, Texas, and Penn, by an average of 10% - 55% to 45% - Clinton will only pick up around 50 delegates.

So Obama will STILL be ahead by 30 delegates, plus whatever he gets THIS Tuesday, plus all the other contests.

Since we really don't want this competition to be decided by superdelegates, it's incumbent now to work extra hard for Obama, to make sure that he wins the victory 'without taint', since barring some unforeseen, Clinton won't be ahead in the pledged delegate count.


by jc on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:26:25 PM EST

another way to look at it... (none / 0)

Obama is already +18 (51 actual/33 projection) ahead of the pace set forth in the Obama campaign delegate projection spreadsheet.  This spreadsheet lays out the minimum path for Obama victory in pledged delegates, including counting Florida and Michigan in full without superdelegates (which is currently a net minus 60 per http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/ superdelegates-who-havent-endorsed.html).  

Assuming that Obama sweeps the last five contests in February (not in the bag but looking good), the last remaining significant hurdle for Obama is March 4.  HRC must win Texas and Ohio by about 10% or higher to still have a fighting chance.

After 3/4, there are Obama offsets to potential losses.  Wyoming (caucus!) and Mississippi will take a little bite out of any TX and OH losses.

A 10% Pennsylvania loss can be offset by North Carolina and Indiana.  Kentucky is offset by Oregon.  West Virginia is offset by Montana and South Dakota.

That leaves Puerto Rico hanging out there.  The results in the Virgin Islands (90/10!) are the best evidence that Puerto Rico will not be a Clinton blowout.

The bottom line is that HRC is getting boxed into a pledged delegate deficit corner.  But first things first, we have to take care of business on Tuesday and 2/19 in Wisconsin and Hawaii.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Obama is holding himself out as being a different kind of candidate, one who is not influenced by lobbyists and does not distort the truth.  But everything he does and says, show that he is just like any other candidate.  

I have put together some examples of things Obama has done or said that make it clear that Obama is Mr. Politics As Usual.  If any of you have anything to add please post it.  Since the Media has abandoned its role as a fact checker in this contest and instead is feeding the frenzy, and the Clintons are booed every time they say anything remotely negative, it's falling on us to take up the slack.  The Republicans will not treat Obama with kid gloves like the Democrats are.  At the very least, Democrats need to know what to expect if Obama gets the Democratic nod.

Questions about Obama's integrity:
1.    Obama has boasted that he wrote legislation to toughen disclosure requirements of radioactive leaks from nuclear power plants.  But in fact Obama caved to Republicans and significantly softened the requirements after meeting with Exelon, the company whose failure to disclose leaks led to outrage.   Since 2003, executives and employees of Exelon have contributed in excess of $227k to Obama's campaigns for the US Senate and for president.
2.    Obama attacks Hilary for taking donations from lobbyists. But Obama himself takes money from lobbyists.
3.    Obama misled voters about his positions on gun control in Idaho.  Obama told voters: "there are people who say, `Well, he doesn't believe in the Second Amendment,' even though I come from a state -- we've got a lot of hunters in downstate Illinois. And I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." However, in the Illinois Senate, Obama regularly supported gun control measures.  Further, Obama joined a measure to prevent people from using a self-defense argument if they are charged with violating local handgun bans. The measure, which will likely rile 2nd Amendment fanatics, became state law.
4.    Obama consistently claims he is a champion of working America, but when Maytag was in the process of shutting down a refrigerator plant in Illinois and displacing 1,600 workers, he did little to help.  Further, the family of one of the company's directors has raised tens of thousands of dollars for Obama campaigns. While it is not clear that Obama knew about the connection, let alone whether it influenced his actions, it has an appearance of impropriety.
5.    Obama claims that his health insurance plan does not require mandatory insurance because people would get insurance if they could afford it.  But statistics say 1.5 million Americans who can afford health insurance don't get it, resulting in increased health care costs to those who do have insurance.
6.    Obama attacks Hillary for planning to garnish the wages of working people to pay for health insurance they cannot afford.  Hillary's plan provides subsidies for anyone who cannot afford it.  
7.    Obama's plan is estimated to cost 60% more per person per year than Hilary's ($4,400 vs $2,700) because the plan does not require mandatory coverage. Young voters are the most likely Americans to opt out of health insurance and they make up a large portion of Obama's base.
8.    Obama backed a law to expand the use of coal-to-liquid fuel; coal is abundant in Illinois, but liquid coal is one of the worst forms of fuel for the environment. Obama later changed his position, after it was clear it was disaffecting potential green voters.
9.    Obama supported eliminating caps on Social Security Tax and attacked Hillary for not supporting the caps.  But Obama later retracted that support and now claims that he never supported it.  Eliminating the cap would have affected wealthier Democrat voters who have become part of his base.
10.    Obama attacks Hilary saying that she can not work on a bipartisan basis with Republicans; that she "cannot break out of the politics of the past 15 years."  In fact Hilary has worked on many more measures with Republicans in the Senate than Obama, including working with Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC) to expand health care for the National Guard and Reserve as well as sponsoring numerous other bills that were co-sponsored by Republicans.  
11.    Obama continuously misrepresents Hilary's position on the bankruptcy bill, which she has candidly admitted she regrets.  Obama intentionally manipulates her words to make her sound disingenuous and then says: "that kind of talk, I think, it makes people not trust government."
12.    Obama compares himself to JFK, but JFK served 6 years in Congress, 8 years in the Senate, and ran for VP, before running for President.  By contrast, Obama had served less than one term in the Senate when he began his run.  
13.    Obama consistently attacks Hillary for supporting the war in Iraq, but Hilary did not support the war.  Hillary voted for the war authorization in order to get the weapons inspectors back into Iraq and warned Bush at the time that she did not support a preemptive war.  http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_ 101002.html.  
14.    Obama attacks Hillary for supporting military action against Iran. Hilary does not support military action against Iran.  She has been one of the staunchest opponents of war with Iran and has sponsored legislation to prohibit such a war.
15.    Obama insinuates that he voted against the Iraq war, but he did not.  He was not a Senator at the time, he did not have access to the information that the Senators had, nor was he charged with the responsibility of protecting America.
16.    Obama attacks Hilary for saying she will not meet with leaders from Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea.  Hilary did not say she would not meet with these leaders, rather she said she would not guarantee that she would meet with them within the first year of her administration as Obama had said he would.  She said there would be conditions that would need to be met before she would meet with them. Obama has now back-tracked from his previous guarantee, and conditions his meeting with these leaders on the same conditions as Hilary stated.
17.    Obama blasts Cheney for his energy bill, but Obama voted in favor of that bill.
18.    Obama attacks Hilary for not agreeing that the US should fulfill its responsibility under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.  But Hilary has been a vocal advocate of the treaty and plans to make nonproliferation a priority of her first term.  

In short, Obama consistently distorts Hilary's positions, misleads voters about his own positions and changes his positions in light of political winds.  Mr. Obama is Politics as Usual.


by suskin on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:53:00 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

I read comments about will Obama be able to get Hillary voters.  I can tell you he will not get 5 of her voters.  my entire family will not back him because he has no experience and the only reason he has come this far is the love fest by the media. Also as reported by CNN his speech writer is purposely copying the way JFK's speech writer wrote.
If Obama is nominee 5 votes for McCain!!!!
by DALEVIC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:22:22 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

My mother will not vote for Obama either. She expresses his inexperience, and his liberalism as reasons she will not vote for him. She also does not buy into the whole "hope" and "change" thing, she thinks its ridiculous.

I will consider Obama and McCain. He has not sold me.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

There are five votes in my family that will never vote for Hillary Clinton based squarely on her war vote.  So that cancels your family out.

Democracy can be bitch when your horse is down.


by AnthonyMason on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

So you're saying that you'd rather have McCain running the country than a Democrat? Huh, very telling.  Dont worry though.  As I said earlier, there are five people in my family that will never vote for Hillary.


by AnthonyMason on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama Wins the Maine Caucuses (none / 0)

Obama out and out lie's.  3 years Ago supported gun control.  Boise, ID speech said he never supported gun control.  Now I believe all politicians lie however Obama's making himself out to be a saint when he isn't.  keeps distorting non support for Iraq war.  Actually say's, "I did not vote for this war." Well no kidding, wasn't even in the senate to place a vote.  With the information that was presented, the people who were presenting the information,(Colin Powell, and Sudam Husseins track record, who knows how he would have actually voted.  And since then he has voted to fund this war 3 times in a row.  Although I'm amazed he voted at all with his track record of sitting out on the hard votes.

Anyway McCain won't only get this WOMAN'S VOTE but will also get the whole family!!!!!  


by DALEVIC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:31:45 PM EST

Keep in mind the bigger picture, rather than smear (none / 0)

I probably should ignore this comment, but here goes:

a. In terms of "lies", you just had McCain tell lies about his statements that he "isn't good at the economy".  Not to mention his cozying up to the rightwing leaders, who he clearly despises.
b. The larger issue, has to do with Iraq, honesty, health care, etc.  Moving this country forward.  If you would vote for McCain instead of Obama, why in the world would you, based on what POLICY grounds, is he worse than McCain?  


by jc on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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