MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II

Franken vs Coleman : The Recount

Here it is, starting today, ending... (you get the point). The Star Tribune is updating the re-count.

Right now, I'm looking at there being 29% counted, and Coleman leads by 158 votes. Coleman has challenged 316 and Franken has challenged 211 votes. If you factor in the challenges as representing votes for the other that are questionable by the opposition, the difference could be as low as 53 votes at the moment. Some of the counties are not going to start until Dec 3rd, so this will be going on for a while.

Update [2008-11-20 19:55:24 by Todd Beeton]:I was working on a post on this as well, so I'll just throw the bulk into an update.

While I'd certainly like to see Franken's gains come more quickly, there is some reason for continued optimism. First of all, as Jerome notes, is the very fact that so many more of Franken's lost votes are due to challenges than Coleman's are. Let's say the canvassing board that rules on the challenges rejects the challenges in equal proportions, Franken would make up more votes than Coleman would and therefore could enter that phase of the recount behind Coleman but ultimately prevail.

As Franken recount lawyer Marc Elias said at a campaign briefing with reporters earlier today (h/t TPM):

"We've seen examples of challenges that are clearly non-meritorious, and will not be upheld by the canvass board." If Elias is right about that prediction, Franken could potentially gain even more votes when the board finally takes up those ballots in December.

I do agree with Nate, though, that there is some danger for Franken here as the mere appearance that a canvassing board led by a Democratic SOS "overturned the will of the people" would give Coleman ammunition to demand a second recount or even call into question the election's validity. It probably would behoove Franken to adopt a more aggressive challenge strategy.

Another reason for optimism is the fact that the votes that have been recounted so far have come more from Coleman country than from Franken country.

Again from the press conference:

Marc Elias...said that Franken has made gains despite the fact that the recounted areas so far are more Republican than the state as a whole -- which means they could potentially gain even more votes as the count moves into more pro-Franken precincts, though Elias stressed that they aren't making any direct extrapolations or projections.

As a sign of this, take the recount percentages from the Minnesota Secretary of State's website (which, by the way, hasn't been updated since last night.) It shows that Coleman has received 43.25% of the recounted votes while Franken has received just 39.99%. Compare this with the original certified count of 42% for each of them.

This is due largely to the fact that Hennepin and Ramsey Counties, MN's two most populous counties, which both went for Franken by double digit margins, still have 70% and 85% of their precincts respectively left to recount. On the other hand, Hennepin so far has not exactly been a recount goldmine for Franken, having netted him just 6 votes, although this could be due, again, to Coleman's overly aggressive challenge strategy. About a third of all of Coleman's challenges so far have come from Hennepin County.

A couple things make me think the Coleman camp are nervous about losing this thing. First is their overzealous challenge strategy and second is the overzealous spinning on the part of GOP strategist Todd Harris on Hardball today. He made (at least) two errors when trying to spin Coleman strength: 1. Franken is going to challenge more votes than Coleman because he's behind and 2. most of the votes that have been recounted have come from blue counties. Sorry, Todd, wrong on both counts. Nervous much?

Update [2008-11-20 20:2:2 by Todd Beeton]:Interesting, looks like Franken has indeed gotten a bit more aggressive with his challenges. While Coleman has challenged 317 votes, Franken has challenged 246, resulting in, so far, a net gain of 72 votes for Franken, reducing Coleman's lead to 143. But again, the number of those challenges that will ultimately be ruled valid won't be known until the canvass board meets in December.

Update [2008-11-20 21:33:3 by Jerome Armstrong]: With 46% of the recount finished, Coleman leads Franken by 136 votes, and Franken has challenged 414 and Coleman has challenged 409 ballots.



Display:


Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

From what i read today's counting could be seen as bad news... He gained only 6 votes overall today...  At this pace its hard to envision him catching up..

I REALLY REALLY want Franken to take this one..

On the other hand the fact Coleman is challenging more ballots may be encouraging.. From what I'm seeing most of the challenged ballots are pretty clearly in the other guys favor so since Coleman is challenging about 73 more votes that could mean a plus 73 (most optimistic interpretation)...

In that scenario the difference is only about 100 votes!

Whatever happens this looks like it is going to be unbelievably close...


by obama4presidente on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 07:59:42 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Great update Todd, thanks. I too take the abundant challenges as a sign of Coleman being on the freak. I imagine as it gets closer, they will challenge even more frequently. However, are we sure that challenges only go one way?  ie, can't the board rule a vote doesn't count and the one who wants it to count issue a challenge? If so, we can't assume that all challenges go one way, it might be a bit more complicated.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:00:52 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (2.00 / 1)

Looks like this could be how challenges work, and not the way originally thought. As you can see from this picture, this is a ballot that Franken is challenging:




My guess is there are challenges of both types, against and for, that are going on by both camps.

by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

You don't understand
This was originally an overvote and thus thrown away, Franken is challenging it as you can see the intent of the voter in crossing out the Coleman box

by rolnitzky on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Huh, how can I not understand when you just repeated what I said?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 09:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

You don't understand: he just repeated what you said after saying that you don't understand.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 03:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Now its all clear.


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 08:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Sorry Jerome, I missed that it was you posting.


by rolnitzky on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 11:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Also, 'moral highground' means nothing. There is a very clear procedure for the recount. This ain't Florida.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:02:37 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Moral highground means something. But not in the context of a statutorily prescribed recount, or in any ensuing lawsuit.

What is bemusing about these close elections, like the one in Washington state in 2004, is that each candidate stresses the need to honor the will of the people. When an election is decided by a score or so of votes, that's not an awful lot of people will supporting the victory.



McCain
by Black Anus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't existentialism (none / 0)

It means something when the procedure is unclear, which isn't the case here. It might still exist I guess, for someone to claim, but it'd be based on something other then winning by the rules of the recount.  


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

The SOS will be updating their numbers once nightly at 8pm.
Last nights Hennepin numbers mainly came from CD3 and CD6 not CD5 so they came from the Coleman areas of the county.
by Judeling on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:13:34 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

It looks like they trickle in after 8, now its a lead by 142 for Coleman.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

As of 714 PM CST Coleman's lead over Franken has been reduced to 145 votes! Crossing my fingers here...

http://ww2.startribune.com/news/metro/el ections/returns/2008/recount/msenco.html


by cxfornier on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:15:38 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

I would like to presume that challenges on either side favors the opposite...mostly..So, take back 80% from each side...and return the numbers (80%) to the original candidate that was called for. On this, Franken still has a huge advantage, having fewer challenges...Unscientific, but a good guess..I think..lol


by cxfornier on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:18:38 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

142 now.
if it continues like that, Franken will win even before challenges.
Al overcame 73 votes with just less than 1/3 of the vote counted.

by rolnitzky on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 08:56:22 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Now 136.

The trend is right, Hennepin is coming in.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 09:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Looks like Ramsey county is Franken's friend. 31% in, and Franken gained 33 while Coleman lost 6, a net of 39 votes, and Franken having 6 challenges to Coleman's 2. If that trends out as is, Franken would gain about 88 more from this county, and have have about 12 additional challenges than Coleman. 100 more coming in from Ramsey would be very good news, but I wouldn't put much weight into there being a consistent trend yet.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 09:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Ramsey is politically homogenous.  Not ONE precinct in Ramsey went to Coleman...not even his own.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 09:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

I am sure the homogenous part of Ramsey County that you refer to, in which Coleman didn't take one precinct, is the City of Saint Paul.  There are some Saint Paul suburbs in Ramsey County, which must include some Coleman precincts.  Interesting, though, that Coleman was Mayor of Saint Paul and can't win a precinct there in 2008 (or when he ran for Governor, I believe).


by lakelover on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 10:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Yup. I'm full of it.  Sorry.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 11:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (2.00 / 2)

Yuck--Franken will lose by 60 votes in the end.  Actually Franken's camp has gotten more aggressive in challenging ballots--414 to 409 for Coleman.

So Franken has gained fewer votes today than yesterday.  It think it's going to come up just short.


by esconded on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 11:23:02 PM EST

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

I love how your user page has a link with franken down 239 votes.  That count is about two weeks old.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 11:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN recount: Franken vs Coleman II (none / 0)

Rec for excellent display of concern.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 12:00:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mostly GOP district counted. (none / 0)

According to the SOS, Coleman currently leads by 30,000 votes among recounted ballots, which shows that more GOP preicincts were counted so far.

Still a few (relatively large) Republian counties will be the last to count (Dec. 3) so there is a possibility we overtake Coleman in the next few days only to have opened the champagne bottles too early.


by rolnitzky on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 11:33:37 AM EST

Re: Mostly GOP district counted. (none / 0)

Actually Coleman is ahead with more like 40,000 (39,671 to be exact)
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/2 0081104/SenateRecount.asp
by rolnitzky on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 11:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.