Process Over Policy

Jonathan raises the possibility that by giving Lieberman a pass, Obama could be operating on the assumption that he'll "have an easier go in forwarding his legislative agenda in the Senate with Lieberman beholden to him than Lieberman weaker, but mad at him."

I strongly disagree.

First, there's really no evidence to support an assumption that Lieberman will feel either constrained or in debt now that Obama's allowed him to keep his gavel. Why? Because given his past actions, there's no reason to imagine Lieberman will finally start operating in good faith. For example, after Obama campaigned for Lieberman in his primary against Lamont and then stayed almost completely out of the general election, Joe certainly didn't act like like he owed his seat to Obama. Quite the contrary: Lieberman proceeded to endorse McCain and smear Obama throughout the Presidential election.

I also don't agree that "Lieberman could make Obama's life more difficult as an angry gadfly (a Tom Coburn, as it were) than he would as chairman of the Homeland Security Committee." Had Lieberman been stripped of his Homeland Security chair, he would not have bolted to the Republican caucus (where he'd have less power). Rather, it was only an empty threat meant to sidetrack the traditional media. There's simply no way Lieberman would have started voting like a Republicans on more issues than he does now. But he would have been without subpoena power.

As I and others (including Josh Marshall and Jane Hamsher) have argued, the best governing decision would have been to replace Lieberman as chairman, since he's actually done a pretty awful job. Instead, Lieberman's record was ignored, and his dirty, gutter political tactics were condoned.



Display:


Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

Maybe Obama thinks enough people will be pissed off that Liberman won't survive his next election.


by venician on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:26:02 PM EST

Actually, I think it's far more practical... (none / 0)

...than most people are speculating.

With 59 votes in Obama's pocket, 60's a lot more attainable than with 58. And, if Martin wins, Lieberman becomes the 60th vote. (I'm [a bit wrongfully?] assuming that Franken will pull it out in MN.)

Once again, due to the numbers, like a few years ago, Lieberman lucks out.

I think it's the prospect of this on the horizon that's really why many are acquiescing to Joementum's bullshit over the past few months and, essentially giving him a pass today.


by bobswern on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 02:34:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, I think it's far more practical... (none / 0)

60 is irrelevant. Simply being a Democrat doesn't mean that Lieberman will vote for cloture. And, in point of fact, Lieberman is on-the-record saying that, if the Democrats have the ability to overcome filibusters, it will be bad for the country.

If he thinks its bad for the country, why would you expect him to vote for cloture?

And it's not like the guy respects any political debts. Obama campaigned for him in 2006 when he desperately needed help. Obama's reward? He got slandered by Lieberman and Lieberman campaigned for McCain.


www.thealexandrian.net
by Justin Alexander on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

Obama needs to tell Lieberman, "I'm your Daddy". You do ANYTHING I don't like, and I will take your gavel. And anything else I feel like taking.

And, by the way, forget re-election. You're done. If you're lucky, Ambassador to Alaska (after Moose Lady and Trapper Todd secede).


by meddembob on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:59:29 PM EST

Re: Double Secret Probation (2.00 / 1)

Obama needs to tell Lieberman, "I'm your Daddy". You do ANYTHING I don't like, and I will take your gavel. And anything else I feel like taking.

Never going to happen.  Lieberman will repay Obama's generosity by stabbing him in the back at every opportunity and using his chairmanship to bring the Obama Administration to its knees.


by Will Graham on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (2.00 / 1)

To what end?

What purpose would that serve for Joe Lieberman?

McCain is not going to run again in 4 years and the Republicans are not going to run someone else that Lieberman can stomach. Nor is he able to make another run at the job.

Lieberman benefits in no way from attacking the Obama administration.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

Because Lieberman knows that his only path to re-election is by voting and acting like a Republican so that the RNC will repay him by nominating another dishrag in 2012--leaving Lieberman free to take 95% of Republican votes plus a big enough chunk of Democratic and independent moderates to get him just over 50%.


by Will Graham on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

That is a most amazing lack of logic.

Obama supported Lieberman because he (we) are better off having Lieberman inside the tent, even if he's a pain in the ass.

It positions Obama well: forgiving leader not interested in retribution, who just happens to get one more Senate vote much of the time.

It positions Lieberman as still aligned with the Dems and in their debt if he wants any help from the party in seeking reelection. (And god knows he's going to need help.)


by PhilFR on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

That leaves him as a man without a country anyway. If that is his path he would be better off personally retiring and picking up those fat lobbying checks and/or appearance fees.

My guess is we won't hear nearly so much from Joe from now on. Not because he isn't an asshole but simply because he has nothing to gain from it.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:38:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

To continue to keep his chairs, he will have to lean to the left the rest of his term.  If Obama proves worthy of expectations, there is no way he wins again in CT unless he is seen to be on Obama's side.  Keeping him "in the tent" handcuffs him a bit if he wants to have a chance at re-election. Kicking him out makes him go full tilt Republican to muster the scenario that you put forth.


by tominstl on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Secret Probation (none / 0)

Keeping him "in the tent" handcuffs him a bit if he wants to have a chance at re-election. Kicking him out makes him go full tilt Republican to muster the scenario that you put forth.

If Joe Lieberman left the Democratic caucus and became a full-blown Republican that would mean certain electoral defeat in Connecticut.  At this point I think he has no hope of winning the Democratic primary for the Dem nomination, so in my mind his only path to re-election is to play it pretty much right down the middle--but maybe lean hard right on many substantive issues so that Republicans will feel comfortable voting for him again.  In order to win, Lieberman will need the same coalition he built in 2006 I think: 95% of Republicans + just enough yellow-dog Dems and Indies to push him just over 50%.


by Will Graham on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

Beltway Democrats have no principle except expediency and calculation. Having principles is an implicit reproach to then and so they hate the grass roots and net roots. No wonder the Democrats in Congress are seen as weak and craven. Lieberman will continue to stab Democrats in the back and those Senators who voted for him and Obama will deserve it. His democratic friends campaigned for him during his senate race. He repaid them with betrayal. How did that work out. Now he is supposed to change. Not likely. Sometimes doing whats expedient and calculating does not have good results.  


by servopopulus on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:01:28 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

Agreed.


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by Sandwich Repairman on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

The only reason why Bush got reelected despite such a wretched record was his base liked his no prisoners approach. What got us elected wasn't Republicans' "dont take prisoners" approach. It was their bad results.

Can you imagine asking people to forgive OJ because hey Obama wants us all to get along? Retaliation for valid reasons is not the same as retaliation for petty reasons.

I fail to see why Democrats continue this stupid approach over the years. If the DEmocrats had a first terms like Bush's first term, they would have been thrown out of office so fast because they dont have die hard supporters propping them up. You lose die hard supporters who are needed to fire up the rest  creating a chain reaction if you want to maintain a vibrant party.


by Pravin on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Begich Wins (none / 0)

With nearly all votes counted, Begich leads by 3,724 (1.18%)


by zorro24 on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:44:45 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

Obama has come this far, thanks to the liberal bloggers, and now, just as he is about to take office in a couple of months, despite the advice, clearly and freely blogged for his benefit, he chooses to FAIL by doing something different.

Jesus, he pisses me off sometimes.


Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm only a little ways through this bowl of popcorn.
by QTG on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:08:37 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

And that will continue.

I've seen suspiciously little here about Eric Holder as AG.


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by Sandwich Repairman on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

 No need to discuss Eric Holder. There isn't a 'righteous indignation' angle associated with that appointment. We are on a jag right now - it seems - and are reserving all comments for criticizing Obama and the Washington Democrats for not progressing the agenda with extreme prejudice.


Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm only a little ways through this bowl of popcorn.
by QTG on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

I'd like to see more discussion of Holder--his background, his history, his ideology, what Justice might do with him heading the department.  I'm pissed about Lieberman, and not sure what to think about Hillary as SecState, but maybe this is something good to talk about?


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by Sandwich Repairman on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 02:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

AHHAHAH (2.00 / 1)

There are not enough liberal bloggers to have "taken Obama this far." Big on ourselves much?

His machine got him this far. Iowa got him this far.

I doubt 90% of actual voters were listening or caring about what happened to Lieberbore. Rather, I bet a lot are pleased that politics weren't used to "pay a price." How would having him pissed, when we're 1 away basically from 60, help accomplish anything?

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and grow up.


by PHDinNYC4Kerry on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AHHAHAH (none / 0)

Outside our little online blogging communities few know or care what a blog is. I also didn't like the fact that Lieberman got away with bad behavior. I took that deep breath and realized that Obama has a use for the little toad. It's sometimes hard to see the big picture when you're so involved. You give good advice,Doc.
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive." -Thomas Jefferson
by Nag on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

First, there's really no evidence to support an assumption that Lieberman will feel either constrained or in debt now that Obama's allowed him to keep his gavel. Why?

LIEberman did the ultimate betrayal and paid absolutely NOTHING for it. The ONLY message one could ever get from that is: 'do whatever you feel like' because there ARE NO CONSEQUENCES. Obama has fomented one of the worst conditions of the bush reign of terror and destruction: radical irresponsible behavior without accountability.


by gak on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:18:49 PM EST

yes, i'm sure (none / 0)

obama hasn't made it clear to lieberbore what the expectations are. yes, i'm sure he's just "hoping" it goes well.

this isn't some high school prom court where you vote off the jerky dork/jock, it's for R F-ING eal.


by PHDinNYC4Kerry on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Omg, really? (2.00 / 2)

People on blogs who kept wondering if obama was being aggressive enough and what not, now think they still know more about politics than he does.

i'm going to put my money on obama's read of the situation more than any of the top bloggers...well, because he became president.


by PHDinNYC4Kerry on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:35:27 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

My own feeling is that Lieberman is unwell mentally, and will soon seek to draw attention to himself in ways that will require his final expulsion.  We have merely deferred action that will eventually be necessary.


by Bob H on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:48:24 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

That's a take I haven't heard before.  What makes you think Lieberman has mental health problems?


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by Sandwich Repairman on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 02:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (2.00 / 2)

First off, I am going to trust in Obama and the Pro-politicians.  They make much better horse-traders than I.  I chose the best, by far, of the lot to support (Obama) and things are looking pretty damned good right now.

As for Lieberman, I think Reid and Obama played "good-cop/bad cop" on him.  Reid played him hard in their meeting, making Joe get all sick in the stomach and having a press conference to say his gavel was paramount.  Then Obama comes out saying he wants Lieberman in the caucus.  Lieberman is "saved" by Obama, gets to save face, gets a CHANCE to do his damned job right, and OWES the Prez. a big one.  And I think Joe knows this is going down.

Add to it that whoever really is pulling Joe's strings, his donators and financial supporters, must have cut a deal with Obama.  Joe will walk the line now or face the TRUE consequences of the people who really support him...(and that ain't the Senate).

Sadly, in a way, Joe always saw the Repubs as being the more powerfull force in politics over the last 9 years.  He slowly warmed up to and helped the Repubs, in his own way, to get onto what we all thought would be the McCain/Lieberman ticket, his idea of a dream left/right team (and McCain wasn't getting any younger, so odds were good it could have been prez. Lieberman).  This was his one shot to get back into the White House.  But it all fell apart with Palin and then McCain cratered his campaign...ugh.

Nope, Joe is going to play straight because ANYTHING else is as bad as him slitting his own throat, and he will NOT do that. The Dems are going to be the major party, with the "new" power for at least the next 8.  If Joe wants a part of that, he has to go back to being a good little Dem.  

And...if he double-crosses a popular Prez, the ordinary public will want his head, and Obama will have set him up to make him give it to him.

All in all, really SMOOOOOOOTH of Obama.  A chance to rehabilitate a wayward Dem or a chance to give him enough rope to PUBLICALLY hang himself in a way that keeps Obama's hands clean of dealing with a real weasel.  Slick.


by Hammer1001 on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22:32 PM EST

No TV (none / 0)

If the deal did not keep Holy Joe of the TV it is not a good deal.

Joe Lieberman does not speak for Democrats.  It is annoying that the media present him as if he does.


by bakho on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:38:26 PM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (2.00 / 1)

Kicking Lieberman out is so not worth it.  If we had done this, for the next four years any time any Republican wanted to filibuster a Democratic initiative, they'd bring it up.  Any time anyone from our side calls for bi-partisanship, they'd bring it up.  It's way too useful of an object lesson for people who are looking to thwart the new President: "He calls for bipartisanship, but clearly that only goes one way.  Look at what he did to Lieberman".  Put that in mouth of John Boehner, Dan Burton, Rush Limbaugh, anyone.

Now the reverse is true, at least as far as Lieberman goes.  You can expect him to be his usual self, but he'll look like an ingrate.  It will be harder for him to undermine good ideas, and that's all that matters.  I don't care what happens to him.  I don't particularly want him to suffer or be humiliated.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:45:04 AM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (2.00 / 1)

With all due respect, I have two comments to this:

1. There's a very thin line between being "bipartisan" and being a pushover.  I hope Obama's standing on the side of the former.

2. Is there any indication that Joe Lieberman gives a damn about being considered an ingrate?  He just committed the ultimate act of betrayal and received no punishment whatsoever.  I think Lieberman right now is thinking that he can literally behave any way he wants and there will be no consequences at all.


by Will Graham on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (2.00 / 1)

I think Lieberman holds the press's opinion of him very, very dearly.  So yes, I do think he cares about looking like an ingrate.

To us, and to the Democratic party, no, but to the press, absolutely.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

"Policy" vs "Process" huh? Do you mean strategy versus tactics, or are these new words with a subtle difference in meaning?


by pwax on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:19:18 AM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

hopefully we can credit Obama with more intelligence and insight than to think for a second that LIEberman would be ever be beholden to Obama for Obama's [misplaced] magnanimity in rewarding LIEberman for his anti-Democratic actions.


by gak on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:34:25 AM EST

Re: Process Over Policy (none / 0)

Like most posters I was very angry about the caucus vote, "angry unto death" as the prophet Jonah said. But upon reflection, I realized this is not only smart pragmatic politics, but, might I dare say, even  the morally right thing to do.   As a devout Jewish secularist I'm not exactly a WWJD type of person, but Matthew 5:43-44 is not an inappropriate text for this case:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"
People talk about wanting to change politics. Well, isn't this a change from the spiteful, vitriolic destructive personality centered diatribes of the past decade? As another preacher once remarked, in a world ruled by an eye for eye and tooth for tooth, everyone will end up blind and toothless.
So if this helps change the political culture it's a major plus. There's really not much of risk to it.  Lieberman is basically a very weak character with a powerful need for approval.  If he really was a principled son of a bitch he would have jumped to the GOP caucus last year, which would have given the Republicans control of the Senate via Cheney's tie breaking vote. Anyway, he's really in no position to cause much trouble. If he jumps to the GOP now, or even supports them overly much, he's boarding the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.
by Reference Librarian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:11:18 AM EST

Lopsided vote - where you want Obama to go? (none / 0)

Is this really where you want Obama to use all his political capital?

Fighting the majority of Democratic senators (only 13 in the caucus voted against Lieberman in the secret ballot) in order to publicly punish Lieberman?

I'd think Obama's capital might be better 'spent' on getting green legislation and decent health care.

If Lieberman gets to sit in his gilded office for the rest of his term (assuming Connecticut doesn't try a recall - has that ever been done?), too bad.

Now Lieberman owes Obama, and Obama's reaching 'cross the aisle.'

Think about it please.


by MS on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42:34 AM EST

Re: Lopsided vote - where you want Obama to go? (none / 0)

You're assuming that the final vote tally in the Senate wasn't affected by Obama's use of his political capital to support Lieberman.

This is not, in fact, what actually happened.

Come back to the reality-based society. It's much saner over here.


www.thealexandrian.net
by Justin Alexander on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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