And The Loser Is...

by Josh Orton, Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:09:44 AM EST

This debate. And Tom Brokaw.

We were promised an interactive "town hall," where audience member could quiz the candidates live, and Brokaw would channel the questions submitted by citizens online. Obama and McCain, freed from podiums, might mix it up.

Instead, the patient undecideds surrounding the candidates were barely allowed a peep - let alone a follow-up or reaction shot (unless one of the Senators happened to stand close by). Given the unprecedented number of new voters this cycle, one would think our presidential debates would find a way to incorporate them significantly (over the internet, perhaps?). Nope: the dozens of "real people," as political operatives call them, were mere props on a TV set. And Brokaw chided the Senators if they attempted to do something interesting.

Debate organizers failed. Considering our national crisis and record voter registration, Americans are giving their political process more attention than ever. But they certainly weren't rewarded by tuning into tonight's debate.

Update [2008-10-8 0:13:7 by Josh Orton]: And off topic: you know you can't stand Andrew Sullivan when you find even his Obama praise insufferable. Ugh, at least I didn't have to watch him on television.

Update [2008-10-8 0:27:1 by Josh Orton]: By the way, I totally agree with Todd and Jonathan: McCain needed to move the race and he didn't. We were all bracing for McCain to go way negative, but he never did. McCain is too short on time to keep losing debates.




Tags: election 08, debate (all tags)

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I think the actual loser tonight is (none / 0)

McCain....they said this guy was good at townhalls?  He was better off sending Palin.


by Blazers Edge on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:13:29 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Say what you will but Andrew Sullivan has been a big asset to democrats this election.


by obama4presidente on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:14:23 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (2.00 / 1)

Did you see him on Maher a couple weeks ago? He may be an asset this cycle, but he's still wrong on about 90% of issues.


by Josh Orton on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you're closer... (none / 0)

to him than you think.  On social issues, there is probably little difference.  He may be more of an economic conservative but he has stood up for Barack since the beginning and before it was fashionable (as you did) - we have to thank him for that.  No one calls out the NRO crowd like him.  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 03:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

he is a horrible person (2.00 / 1)

I don't care that he reluctantly endorsed Kerry, I don't care that he enthusiastically backs Obama. He was horrible in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and he still thinks The Bell Curve was a great work of scholarship.

It is irritating to see so many Obama supporters cite Andrew Sullivan like he's some great sage.

I say this even though I suspect he's right about Sarah Palin being Trig's grandmother.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he is a horrible person (none / 0)

Interesting, he has tenaciously held on to the Trig story in the face of the most vehement denials but virtually no compelling evidence.  He's almost got me convinced.  What a strange political world we inhabit these days.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not writing about this angle (none / 0)

because I don't think it helps Obama to have liberal bloggers accuse Sarah Palin of lying about being Trig's mother.

However, there is a lot that doesn't add up about Palin's story.

From my real-world conversations, I can tell you that a lot of women are convinced Sarah Palin is the grandmother. This includes many women who don't read any blogs and don't know all the circumstantial evidence Sullivan has been citing. They just are not buying that a woman in the eighth month of a high-risk pregnancy would fly to Texas, then fly back to Alaska after her water broke and not go to the best hospital in Anchorage to deliver. (My midwife didn't want me driving to Iowa City in the seventh month, and I had a low-risk pregnancy in my 30s.) Also, the five months of missed school for Bristol is a big red flag for many women.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:06:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not writing about this angle (none / 0)

I tend to agree, both on the substance of the evidence and the fact that it doesn't help the Obama cause at this point to pursue it in any respect.  Let us speak, for now, no more of it.

Having said that I am respectful of Sullivan for refusing to let the matter go in the face of mere propriety and political correctness.  It's a moot point at this stage of the election but a potentially revealing insight into the character of one of the principal actors and while politically radioactive to critics is worthy of discussion on the more abstract grounds of integrity, credibility and morality, which, coming full circle, is the pew that Sullivan seems most comfortable occupying.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:19:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not writing about this angle (2.00 / 1)

Notwithstanding that I believe it's true, it's completely irrelevant. I don't care about extra-marital affairs because I'm not her husband. I don't care about a fake pregnancy because there is plenty of evidence that Sarah Palin is crazy as hell already without trotting out something that sounds far-fetched.


by Spiffarino on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he is a horrible person (none / 0)

man if you all think he's so horrible why are you consistently citing him on this site..

have some backbone! if he's so horrible as you say he is - i remain utterly unconvinced (so he got caught up in the jingoistic aftermath of 9-11! so did many... not me.. but many did... he saw the error and he has apologized.. seems like many cut john "bullshit artist" edwards the slack but they can't do it with andrew sullivan)- well if he's so horrible stop citing him...as far as the bell curve let me cite the much derided comment by obama: that's above my pay grade

no one has gone after mccain/palin harder than andrew sullivan.. at great potential cost to his reputation... i think that ought to count for something.

didn't one of the front pagers just write that mr. horrible "nailed it"?


by obama4presidente on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:43:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a personal rule (2.00 / 1)

never to link to Andrew Sullivan here or at Bleeding Heartland.

I have no control over what other MyDD posters do.

I got tired of seeing Obama supporters praise Sullivan during the primary wars. Sullivan has hated Hillary since 1992--of course he was going to be in the tank for Obama.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have a personal rule (none / 0)

ok. well you are entitled to think as you wish...


by obama4presidente on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:13:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have a personal rule (2.00 / 1)

Can we throw "in the tank" "under the bus"?  That sort of talk really makes me bitter and clingy.


Change has come to America.
by the mystical vortexes of sedona on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 03:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he is a horrible person (2.00 / 1)

Have I ever cited him? I can't remember if I have.

Yes, Todd thought Sullivan "nailed it." Being different people, we sometimes disagree on things. Imagine!


by Josh Orton on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he is a horrible person (none / 0)

Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to think as they wish...but the fact is that Sullivan's blog is probably the top website out there- in terms of visitors- rallying support for Obama.


by obama4presidente on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 11:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Andrew Sullivan is an asshole. Go google A Sullivan 2002 03, almost Coulteresqes.


Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 04:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Horrible waste of the Town Hall format.. a disservice to the voters.. I blame Brokaw. he basically just picked the same questions he would have asked himself!


by obama4presidente on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:16:28 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

I thought it was disgusting that no young person was able to ask a question.  What a disservice to the country.


by gorebeatbush2 on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:22:00 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

McCain left after the debate piss off,  but not a much as Tom Boy.

He fancies himself as the Dean of Reporters so the actions of these candidates, not following the rules, was just unjustified for a man of satire.


by Organic George on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:31:31 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

[/pose]

Andy isn't so bad, he's just an excitable type.  It is the source of all his weaknesses and strengths.

[pose]


by Concern Troll on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:38:07 AM EST

And The Loser Is...McCain (2.00 / 1)

He can't win, and he won't win the next debate unless Obama makes a spectacular gaffe. The Financial Collapse is the final blow to the Reagan Republican brand. As long as McCain embraces Reagan's philosophy, the voters will never crown McCain as a winner of a debate.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:39:58 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Brokaw had no control. He had no theme. The only positive remark about him was he realized his own impotence. The format was awful with question and response with no follow-up. The town-hall was basically the YouTube debate with nervous people on live TV and e-mails rather than user videos.

Awful debate. Obama still won. But awful debate.

Personally, I find it deplorable that our presidential debates are less rigorous than media interviews. Think about it: Ifill asked a question and moved on while Couric asked simple follow-ups. We need at least a Couric level of discourse in presidential debates.

We need to open the format up a lot. Question, answer, response, follow-up question from candidates to each other. Let them rip each others throat out instead of this meandering extended stump speech.


by TCQuad on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:41:03 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

That will never happen outside of fictional television. No serious candidate for President will ever open themselves up to that kind of potential slaughter.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Josh,

it seems kind of silly to complain about sullivan if you don't provide a link so that we can judge for ourselves.


by granparocks on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:01:07 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Apologies...scroll down...it's in Todd's post...


by Josh Orton on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

thanks josh. good analysis i think.  i should've checked downstream for the link.


by granparocks on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

"You know you can't stand Andrew Sullivan when you find even his Obama praise insufferable."

I'm no fan of Sully (his "last honest man amongst the conservatives" and "Catholic-Log Cabin Republican" schticks are annoying, but his praise for Obama only seems to irk the folks that aren't that fond of Obama.  The same thing seems to apply to Olbermann and Daily Kos.


Change has come to America.
by the mystical vortexes of sedona on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:09:45 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

For me, it's unique to Sullivan.


by Josh Orton on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (2.00 / 1)

He's an acquired taste, and strangely Puritan, but it takes all kinds.  I don't think he expects anyone to agree with him all of the time and he is certainly willing to go out on some pretty slender limbs.  But isn't that what the Internet, for good or ill, has contributed to the 'public square?'  Or is it just a dysfunctional electronic Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

I'm running out of imagined scenarios which would prevent Senator Obama from winning this thing handily and I suspect the McCain campaign is in the same condition.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:39:31 AM EST

There's one (none / 0)

And Gergen said it - racism.  I don't think we'll see a 5-6 point Wilder effect this time - hopefully young voters making up a higher percentage and the ground game will mitigate it - but it's still out there like an ugly cloud hovering over the election.  We can't discount it until election day is in the rear view mirror.


by Deeg on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's one (none / 0)

O worry about the massive vote purging going on nationwide...  I have to assume that the Obama camp is on it...

There's no Bradley effect... Very few people who don't like Obama are afraid to say so...  Remember that in Wilder's case, his opponent was massively unqualified, and people were legitimately embarrassed to say that they were voting for his opponent... That's not the case here...

If racism has any effect, you will see it in the polls near the end...  The GOP is revving up their racist attacks... the racists will be diligent in showing their hatred, especially to pollsters...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's one (none / 0)

Perhaps not but the unspoken has been widely remarked about lately, which I take as a positive sign.  And as for the Wilder effect, well, no doubt it's out there but another week of profoundly disturbing economic news will see more of this:


"What's crazy is this," [an Obama supporter, who canvassed for the candidate in the working-class, white Philadelphia neighborhood of Fishtown recently] writes. "I was blown away by the outright racism, but these folks are f***ing undecided. They would call him a n----r and mention how they don't know what to do because of the economy."

Ben Smith - Race and the economy Politico 6 Oct 08

Fancy that.  Factor in the remarkable registration and GOTV statistics and that's what I mean, I'm running out of plausible scenarios...


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

Much to the chagrin or Republicans Obama was very successful this evening. What has to be really devastating and game ending is John McCain's performance. He was very erratic, disjointed, and elliptical, as if people were following his inner train of thought when referring to other conversations he was having but not letting people in on.    


by Jeter on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 03:15:04 AM EST

Re: And The Loser Is... (none / 0)

I'm so angry that they didn't use my question.

"This one is for Senator Obama: Jessica in New York wants to know who that skulking creature on stage with you is?  He has an ill-favored look."


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 04:42:13 AM EST


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