Post-Debate Thread

Tonight was John McCain's last best opportunity to change the direction of the race, and as was the case with the previous three debates -- the two featuring McCain and Barack Obama, as well as the Vice Presidential debate -- the Republican just plum came up short.

As I said during the debate, McCain's mudslinging during the campaign was not an effort to raise the profile of his attacks -- whether on Ayers or ACORN or taxes or Joe the plumber -- it was an effort to get Obama on his heels. McCain needed Obama to have a Michael Dukakis/Bernard Shaw/death penalty-like or Gerald Ford/Poland-like moment -- the type of gaffe that sits with the American people through election day, the type of gaffe that raises serious questions about Obama's ability to be President. That didn't happen. Obama remained cool and, perhaps more importantly, didn't lash back at McCain. These might not have been the most comfortable exchanges for Obama, but he won them because he defended himself deftly and refrained from joining McCain in the gutter.

But if there is a historical precedent for tonight's debate, it was the debate between Al Gore and George W. Bush when, at least according to the post-debate meme embraced by the establishment media, Gore sighed and was generally disrespectful of Bush in the background while the Republican was speaking. McCain seemed plain mean. He was huffing and puffing in the background like he was James Gandolfini in the final season of "The Sopranos." He looked angry and disdainful while Obama was speaking. He even rolled his eyes at the recitation of the situation in Colombia, where labor leaders are assassinated. As Paul Begala put it on CNN, "The reaction shots just killed John McCain." Americans might elect a happy warrior... but a an angry one, the thrust of whose campaign appears to echo Jon Lovitz as Dukakis ("I can't believe I'm losing to this guy"). I'm not sure I buy it, and I'm certainly not convinced that the American people will on November 4.

Those are my thoughts... What did you think?

Update [2008-10-15 22:41:17 by Todd Beeton]:Rachel Maddow and Chris Matthews agree: McCain's moment where he appeared to belittle the concept of the health of the mother is "going to kill him." Can't wait til we get that video. I began thinking McCain was winning but in the end Barack has another win. 3 for 3 baby.

Update [2008-10-15 22:45:15 by Todd Beeton]:Uh-oh. McCain's in for a rough night. Just heard Luntz on FoxNews say "this was a good night for Barack Obama" with his focus group behind him but I didn't catch any specifics. More as we get the results.

Update [2008-10-15 23:0:54 by Todd Beeton]:Hillary is on CNN just ripping on McCain for voting 90% of the time with George W. Bush and ripping on Republican policies. "It's going to take a Democratic president" to fix these problems. Again, I love the partisan differentiation that is typical of the Democratic rhetoric. Barack originally wanted a campaign that blurred the parties, hence letting Republicans off the hook for their devastating policies. But he's not getting it.



Display:


Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Nothing verbal was interesting, and nothing verbal is likely to be discussed for long.

But yes -- McCain's reaction shots did not serve him well, and that's what we'll be discussing Friday through Monday.

No game changer for him.


by fsm on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:37:27 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

CNN spin room is a partisan cat-fight.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:38:18 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I tune into CNN for all my 12-commentators-talking-over-each-other coverage.


by TCQuad on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Pat Buchanan thought he won (big surprise), Rachel Maddow says all the anger lost the debate for McCain at the end.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:42:58 PM EST

Why didn't Obama mention FISA? (none / 0)

That's pretty curious because he really did stand up to the left-wing with that move; it would have made a great soundbite and is clear proof that this guy really isn't a doctrinaire liberal as McCain claims he is.


by Blazers Edge on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:44:40 PM EST

Re: Why didn't Obama mention FISA? (none / 0)

"Look at all the people who hate me! Geez, I don't know why anyone's voting for me!"

We can keep it at teacher's unions and the other example. No need to belabor the point.


by TCQuad on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Sorry Sen. McCain, but being angry and arrogant isn't going to win you the presidency.

Congratulations President Obama!


by hocuspocus on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:45:12 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'm missing something.  McCain is the last guy I want to have the go-codes that I've seen since for a long, long time.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:46:42 PM EST

CNN mutant panel picks Obama (2.00 / 2)

15-10


by elrod on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:47:32 PM EST

CBS General Consensus; McCain Won (none / 0)

Even Dee Dee Myers thought McCain won the debate. But whether that will be enough for McCain to close the gap remains to be seen. I'd also like to see what the CBS instant poll will say. The focus group indicated McCain won the debate. His line "If you want to run against Bush, you should have run four years ago," was very effective and is most remembered about this debate.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:47:56 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

MSNBC focus group up now.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:48:24 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Ayers backfired with independents.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Former Bush voter: Obama gave a good explanation on Ayers, McCain kept beating a dead horse.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I think I sprained an eyebrow when McCain talked dismissively about the "health of the mother". It just shot up rapidly and incredulously but I didn't stretch  beforehand.

McCain's best, but not enough. His "you should have run 4 years ago" line was excellent. Ayers and ACORN both were flat accusations.

CNN's unofficial panel has Obama 15-10.

Joe the Plumber picked up the remaining 5 votes.


by TCQuad on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:49:28 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

What about the infanticide issue--is that going to get any traction?


by esconded on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 1)

So the one time Obama bucked his party was he voted for the republican "tort reform". You are kidding me! What the eff are people thinking. Democrats are in favor of putting limits on how much corporations can be sued for maiming or killing individuals. This republican legislation was in 2004 one of the rallying cries against BUSH and now we have nominated a candidate who brags about his crossing party lines to support it. WTF. "This is not the Democratic Party I knew."


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:52:55 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Ummm . . . I don't speak troll.  Could you translate this into English for me?  Thanks.


Change has come to America.
by the mystical vortexes of sedona on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 1)

When Obama was asked when he bucked his party and voted his against the leadership of the democratic party this was the example he listed. He voted in favor of tort reform. One of the dividing issues in 2004. He voted with republicans in favor of corporations to limit what individuals could recover in damages. Where were you 4 years ago? You have the nerve to call me a troll? At least I know what the basic principles of the Democratic Party used to be. What is your position on tort reform? Do you think that corporations should be limited to $250,000 in liabiliy for injuries or deaths they cause individuals? Tell me what is it you beleive in that makes you a Democrat?


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Still speaking troll.  Could you have one of your human cousins log on?


Howard Dean is my go-to guy
by lojasmo on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Harold Ford on msnbc - McCain "uncomfortable" talking about Palin.
HA!
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:56:07 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

John McCain's dismissal of the Lily Ledbetter Act got me boiling mad for some reason. I'm not hardly a feminist, but the thought that he voted against it because of statute of limitations is TOTAL CRAP. A woman gets jerked out of pay for years and McCain's answer is that she should have sued when it was happening?
Man, don't even get me started on his views on a women's  health when it comes to an abortion. It made me cringe and I consider myself a pro-life Democrat. (Not to be confused with a Pro-Life Republican) I mean, it was some kinda right-wingnut etreme evangelical answer...

A PROUD Hopium user!
by xodus1914 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:57:34 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

So how do you as a feminist feel about Obama supporters wearing Tshirts that read " XXXXX XXXXX is a C&NT"  would it be okay with you a feminist if I ran off a bunch of those shirts with your mother's, wife's sister's or daughter's name. Please submit the names of the women in your life that I can produce those Tshirts about. Because I tell you if you used my mother, girlfriend, sister or nieces name you would be dead. No questions asked so please tell me who in your family it would be OK for me to call a C&NT.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

So I assume that you agree with the murderous screams from McCain's crowd to "Kill him"?


Change has come to America.
by the mystical vortexes of sedona on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 1)

No I don't. But Your deflection must mean you are looking for justification to excuse those who where a shirt calling a PERSON a C&NT. Show me where I looked for some way to justfy the hate the same way you squirmed around trying to create an excuse to excuse the inexcusable.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

You just argued that a politician is directly responsible for any form of expression that a supporter makes.  You are obviously anti-Obama.  McCain's supporters have espoused incredibly racist and violent ideas.  


Change has come to America.
by the mystical vortexes of sedona on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

Try reading and comprehending the previous post's. I know it is difficult but please read the 4 post before your stupid comment in the thread. You will see I never endorsed any violence, I outright opposed it. But all of you have not opposed sexism you have only attacked me for pointing out sexism. Please reading comprehension is your friend. Really!


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

"Because I tell you if you used my mother, girlfriend, sister or nieces name you would be dead. No questions asked so please tell me who in your family it would be OK for me to call a C&NT."

Just so we are clear this statement is not an endorsement of violence. It is a statement of fact. I would not stand by and let this happen. After all If I printed a bumper sticker  that said " Michelle Obama is A SL&T A B&TCH AND C&NT. Would that be okay? No it would not and I would not do it.  Anyone who would do it is scum. They deserve whatever they get. So do you support scum?


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:23:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

what does wearing a T-Shirt, which has vile language on it, HAVE to do with equal pay for equal work?

nothing.

that is such a bullshit spin and not even an equal analogy.


by colebiancardi on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

Sure call women anything you want as long as you pay them and provide lip service to equality. Yep the "NEW PROGRESSIVE PARTY". Sorry 1867 may be your favorite year but I won't travel down that memory lane with you.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (1.00 / 2)

The Tshirt is Okay with you. Please provide the name of your Mother, Sister, daughter, wife , girlfriend that it's okay if we print the same shirt with their name. Come on if the shirt is OK then you won't mind letting us sell shirts with your female family members names and the same message. There's nothing wrong with the shirts so come on give us Mom's name we can start with her. Hey do you have a teenage daughter surely a tshirt that refers to her as a "C&NT" wont be a problem. How about your wife come on you have called her that under your breath on more than one occasion why not let the whole world broadcast it. Really it's not sexist I am sure somewhere someone thinks your wife is a C&NT and isn't that good enough?


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

where did I say the T-shirt was ok with me?  I stated it had vile language on it.

good grief, are you taking lessons on debating from McCain and Palin?

What I DID state was that McCain's little boo-hoo "Stop picking on Palin" PALES in comparison to equal pay for equal work, which effects  ALL women.

and the women in my family, of which I AM ONE, would rather have equal pay and put up with condensing people like you who probably DO wear those types of T-shirts.


by colebiancardi on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Free T-Shirts? (none / 0)

Virginia, Isabelle, Liza, Jennifer.

Make them all small, except for Izzy's, she's a fat cow (8months preggers).

BTW:  They're all laughing at you as I'm typing this, and want to let you know, they'll wear them only if they're Union Made.

Jen told me not to be a pussy and post this already.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I have never heard of such a thing.

Now, a shirt that said:

"Palin is a red herring"

That would be fine.


Howard Dean is my go-to guy
by lojasmo on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:51:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

The only thing I know about those shirts is that omeone on No Quarter was bragging about it pretending to be an Obama supporter and sending them around in a thread a couple of days ago.

So let me see if I get this straight: vowing to kill the Democratic nominee - no big deal.  Calling the Republican VP names - inexcusable, UNLESS you're actually a Republican pretending to be a Democrat, and then it's really funny.

Got it.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:57:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

You got that right.  Weak and typical.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

CBS Poll: Obama Wins Big! (2.00 / 1)

So people watching at home thought Obama won, but people in the studio thought McCain won. The people at home are more important than people in the studio.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:57:47 PM EST

CBS Poll Shows Enormous Obama Win (2.00 / 2)

Way better than 2-1 that he won, 28% of undecideds now support him (14% McCain).  In short - say goodnight, Gracie.

Now they're interviewing Joe the Plumber.  ROTFLMAO!!


by Deeg on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:58:38 PM EST

CNN Poll: Obama Wins Big! (2.00 / 1)

In both the CBS and CNN have both Obama winning. The political analysts liked McCain, but the general public saw McCain as too angry.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:05:00 PM EST

McCain's Worst Number (2.00 / 1)

In the CNN poll?  it showed his favorable/unfavorable dropped after the debate - to 49-49!  What a disaster.

Temperament matters.


by Deeg on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:06:54 PM EST


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