Political theology and the Religious Left

My copy of Dispatches from the Religious Left arrived yesterday and, since the book launch is next week, I thought I'd crack it open and review some of the essays this weekend.  The book is divided in three parts: "Envisioning a more politically dynamic Religious Left", "Memos on hot button issues", and "Getting from here to there".  So my plan is to review one essay from each chapter in the next couple of days.

First up is "Religious Left: Changing the Script", by Daniel Schultz, better known to many blog readers as Pastor Dan of Street Prophets.

PastorDan's essay is characteristically blunt and honest.  It opens with a none-too-subtle reproach to Religious Leftists: "What the Religious Left is doing is not working!".

Update: PastorDan responds, and discusses the role of questioning in liberal religious traditions, as compared to the role of religion in conservative traditions. Fascinating stuff, and it reminds me a little of those charts Paul Rosenberg likes to toss up at OpenLeft. Check it out!


The prognosis is that, for a variety of reasons, the Religious Left is not an effective political movement in the way that the Religious Left Right is (whoops -Shai).  This ineffectiveness stems from a tendency to get mired in small-bore issues and miss the forest for the trees; an eagerness for spiritual development coupled with ambivalence about politics; and the storied theological diversity of a movement which includes some number of Catholics, mainline Protestants, Jews, and Muslims - and many others.


The prescription, according to PastorDan, is to develop and articulate a progressive political theology for the Religious Left.  By way of contrast, he refers to Walter Brueggemann's identification of the dominant political theology in a 2005 Christian Century article - "the script of therapeutic, technological, consumerist militarism that permeates every dimension of our common life."


PastorDan echoes Brueggemann's argument that the Religious Left must offer a "counterscript" to this dominant ideology.  He doesn't so much spell out what that progressive political theology is, but suggests, in a somewhat roundab

out fashion, a way to get there.  The key idea is that the Religious Left should be "questioning assumptions, imagining new possibilities, keeping an eye on the human bottom line of public policy."  This process suggests an honest examination of conflicted feelings on issues ranging from sexual diversity to social welfare programs, and to use that examination to probe long-held assumptions more deeply.  For example, PastorDan suggests that conflicted feelings about safety in the age of terrorism could lead to an examination of the assumptions embedded in our national security state, and from there to a productive re-imagination of the transformation of that apparatus.


This process is not the stuff of winning electoral politics, exactly, and PastorDan is quick to admit that he is not calling for the development of a robust political machine which can answer the Religious Right, dollar-for-dollar and demagogue-for-demagogue.  Indeed, he argues that while the role of the Religious Right has always been to provide clear answers, that of the Religious Left should be to ask questions, to be "astronauts of inner space".


This chapter is rather difficult, both because it's a bit on the abstract side, and because its prescription is challenging.  Asking difficult questions, suited though it may be to the Religious Left, is a good way to mint new enemies, and is not a good way to notch up victories.  Those who are hoping for a powerful, organized political religious movement that can provide the same kind of volunteer firepower to the Democrats that the Religious Right provides to the Republicans won't get a lot of sympathy from PastorDan.  That doesn't mean he's wrong, but it's likely to give a lot of people (myself included) some pause.


To be sure, I don't think we want a Religious Left that is in every way similar to the Religious Right.  To begin with, the last thing we need in this country is a second copy of the Religious Right; more to the point, it just won't work.  Religious progressives, by an large, will not participate in a movement that works in lockstep with a political party.


At the same time, it seems to me that asking questions is just limiting the Religious Left a bit too much.  Perhaps I'm reading too much into the chapter, but it seems to me that PastorDan assumes a dichotomy between asking questions and providing answers, and based on that assumption, imagines that the Religious Left must be a constant long-term thorn in the side of the political system, rather than an agent of potential short-term victories.  I think it's a false dichotomy, although I admit that I'm not entirely sure what the mechanics of asking questions while providing answers looks like.  To return to the earlier example, it certainly would have been a tall order, in the post-9/11 days, to simultaneously ask difficult questions about our national security apparatus and to illuminate a hopeful path into a safer and more sane world.  That's still pretty difficult, seven years after the fact.


In any case, I'm curious to hear what you think - is PastorDan's diagnosis correct?  Is asking questions a sufficient role for the Religious Left, or is it too narrow?  And if it is too narrow, what's the proper role for the Religious Left?



Display:


Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Not available for Kindle. Drat.


Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm only a little ways through this bowl of popcorn.
by QTG on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 09:21:02 AM EST

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I hadn't realized this, but on the Amazon page, there's a link below the book cover to allow you to request the book on Kindle; I just clicked it.  No idea how successful that'll be, though.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Excellent, excellent post! I don't agree with your final argument that asking questions WITHOUT providing answers is not the way to go. To the contrary, asking questions is what being a liberal is all about. The smartest people to me are always the ones who ask more questions when pushed than respond with glib answers. Do you know what I mean? I think it serves the progressive movement well in the long term to espouse this tenet. For me -- and I'm a staunch agnostic so whatever -- the best answer to the question of what happens to you when you die is to say, "Well, really - I don't know." I think, especially in light of our current political climate heavily trending Democratic, we should keep asking questions and let this enlightened attitude prevail.


http://jimmyqnyc.blogspot.com
by jsedlock on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 10:56:22 AM EST

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Thanks!  Just to clarify, though, I'm not saying the the Left should be all about answers and not at all about questions.  I think both are possible.  I agree that continuing to ask questions is an important role, and will actually become even more important if Democrats win the trifecta this year.  (For example: "if we believe committed same sex couples should have all the material rights that opposite-sex couples have, then why not let them marry, too?"  It's a question that should make Obama and Biden a bit uncomfortable, and it should be asked.)

I think the Pastor Dan essay, based on the original Brueggemann essay, challenges the Religious Left to ask tough questions about the hegemonic ideology that we adhere to as a nation, and to seek transformation of it.  That is a useful and difficult role for the Religious Left to play.  Fair enough.  But is it too much to ask that the same movement can also play a role in small-scale victories that pave the way to that transformation?  Seems like that should be possible, and there is plenty of historical precedent for that kind of role.

Incidentally, I think the Religious Left should include agnostics and atheists too.  It makes the internal theological discussion all that much more interesting.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Asking questions without answers is what allows the GOP to win though.

That is, people get frustrated because of the lack of answers or even simple answers, the GOP swoops in says "The answers is simple, blame (minority group of some type) and it will go away!" and while the Dems are trying to ask questions the public goes with what is easier.


by MNPundit on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 05:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

 The following sentence (quoted from above) needs correction: "for a variety of reasons, the Religious Left is not an effective political movement in the way that the Religious Left is."


by whomever1 on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:39:56 AM EST

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Thanks!


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I totally agree with you. (none / 0)

My problem with the "religious left" as it stands now is that we're too busy asking questions and not busy enough giving answers.  I think (and am working toward the ideal of) the religious left should be doing a lot more standing up for what we believe in, and a lot less hand-wringing and navel-gazing.

One of the major controversies of the early church was the Arian controversy (named for the originator of the controversy, a bishop named Arius, not after the ethnic group).  The Arian controversy, in a nutshell, was this: Arius and his followers claimed that Christ was of similar, but not the same, substance as the Father.  The orthodox believed that Christ was the same substance as the father.  The controversy came down to a single word in the Nicene Creed.

In Greek, the difference between the two positions was a single Greek iota: the orthodox said the Son was homoousios (of same substance) with the Father, and the Arians said the Son was homoiousios with the Father.

The long and short of it was that the Arians were cast out; literally a single iota of difference on the true nature of Christ - a very important question to Christians - was enough to make the Arians heretics.

This may seem like a bit of theological arcana, but here's where I'm going with this: If a single iota in a single word describing the nature of Christ is enough to make the Arians heretics, how much more grievous an error is it to make Christ out to be a figure of hate and condemnation rather than one of love and compassion?  How much more grievous an error is it to make Christ the protector of the free market and the leading proponent of the bootstrap theory, rather than the protector of the poor and downtrodden and proponent of people lifting one another up?  In short - if the Arians are heretics, how much more so are the Christian Right?

What I'm saying is that it's about time the religious left - and especially the Christian Left, since it's our brothers and sisters who do the greatest damage in this country - start standing up and not being afraid to frakking say something.  It's time for us to stop pretending that there are two equally-valid sides to the argument.  Torture done in our names is evil.  Translating hate into public policy is evil.  An economy whose primary beneficiaries are the rich and powerful is evil.  And anyone who believes otherwise quite simply doesn't understand Christianity.  It's just that simple.  Anyone explaining these things away is rationalizing evil.

In short, we on the religious left need a bit more of the conservative in us - a willingness to speak in absolutes and call out those in our religious traditions who are rationalizing, justifying, and sanctifying moral evil.

Thanks for this post, Shai.  I look forward to the conversation...


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by mistersite on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:49:15 AM EST

Re: I totally agree with you. (none / 0)

Thanks for the historical arcana!  Is that where "one iota of difference" comes from?  Fascinating.

Anyhow, I think you are right to say the Religious Left should stand up for what it believes in clearly and forthrightly.  Certainly, that has been done to some degree lately, as in the case of freedom to marry, the living wage, immigration and sex ed.  We need more of it.

I'm not sure if I agree that the Religious Left should be castigating conservatives for their theology.  Perhaps that makes sense for some individual pastors, but if we started slinging theological mud in that way, we'd end up with a lot of internal factionalism.  Percentage-wise, the Religious Left is much more non-Christian than is the Religious Right, so arguing about who adheres more closely to biblical orthodoxy is necessarily going to get us into a lot of trouble.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I totally agree with you. (none / 0)

That's why I specifically said the Christian Left should confront the Christian Right... it seems to me that one of the main goals of any religious left should be to empower those of all faith traditions to challenge the regressive forces within their own faiths.  Christian progressives challenging the Christian Right, Jewish progressives challenging the politically conservative element in Judaism, Muslim progressives challenging the more oppressive elements in Islam, etc.  Challenges from outside the faith tradition aren't going to work - not only is there the issue of being perceived as not having the best interests of the faith at heart, but there's a significant language gap.  I think that in a very real way, the only people who can convince Christian conservatives to turn around are Christian progressives.

Here's the angle I take as an evangelical(ish) Christian progressive: The Christian Right hurts the Christian witness.  When Christ is a figure of hate, intolerance, and condemnation, when He is seen standing for free markets and the exploitation and oppression of the poor, when He is primarily about exclusion rather than inclusion, Christianity suffers.  People don't like that Christ and people don't want to know that Christ, and with good reason: if that's what Christ is like, I don't want anything to do with him either.  But that isn't Christ, and the sooner we realize that and get back to the business of loving people and displaying compassion and working for justice, the more people will want to know the Christ that motivates us to do these things.  (To non-Christian ears, that sounds problematic; however, we also have to realize that a Christ like that also doesn't permit proselytization by coercion, by fear, by mistrust; a Christ like that invites people into the circle with love and acceptance.)

The problem is that at least in conservative Christianity (the tradition I'm most familiar with as a Christian progressive and evangelical Seminary graduate), the problems go all the way down to their theology (as if we can separate bad theology from bad practice).  We have to call out a theology that permits and condones things like a lack of concern for economic justice, like state torture, like hate for LGBT citizens.  The problem, quite simply, is their theology - a Manichaean and neo-Platonic theology that separates the whole world into good and evil, black and white, flesh and spirit.

But I think we also have to admit that on a certain level and within certain limitations, a theology with absolutes does have something going for it - in that under the right circumstances, that theology can enable and empower people to stand up beyond all hope, beyond all human limitations, and combat things that are evil in some pretty fascinating ways.  It was a theology of absolutes that enabled Wilberforce to stand against slavery in England, that enabled King to stand against racial hatred in the U.S., that enabled Tutu to stand against apartheid in South Africa.  I'd be inclined to say that if they didn't believe in the absolute rightness of their cause, and if they didn't believe that there was a stronger force in the universe that had their backs, they might not have had the resources to stand up when they were fought, when their houses were firebombed or the police were engaging in violence or when Parliament just didn't care.


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by mistersite on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I totally agree with you. (none / 0)

Hmm.  You raise an interesting point.  I do agree with you that it's a good idea for Religious Leftists to engage Religious Rightists on theological points of contention.  There's a lot about right-wing theology which is pretty screwy, and there's even more about right-wing religious practice which is even screwier; hitching your church to a political party, as many leaders of the Religious Right seem eager to do, is just bad practice, and it undermines the spirit of community within a congregation.  There's nothing wrong with calling out that theology and that practice, and arguing for a different way of doing things.

I guess it's mostly a matter of degree or of style, but I don't like the sound of a Religious Leftist calling a Religious Rightist evil, heretical, etc.  Or even a Christian Leftist calling a Christian Rightist any of those things.  Too many Christian Leftists have a long tradition of peaceful co-existence with other faiths for that kind of language to work.  I suppose it might in some places, but on the whole it sounds like the wrong tone.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 04:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Both are wrong (none / 0)

Both the Christian Left and the Christian Right are wrong to inject their fantasies about gods and Christ and the supernatural in the national and political conversation.

What we need are rational minds to tackle the problems and advance solutions, not those who believe in myths and fables.


by Sieglinde on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would give your comment (none / 0)

double mojo if I could.


by Sadie Baker on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Both the church and the state suffer when utter separation isn't maintained.

Liberty for ALL (that is people of all faiths or none) can only exist when government is ENTIRELY secular, policy is ENTIRELY secular, and the debate is based on ENTIRELY secular arguments.  That's half of it.  That other half is to ensure that government is ENTIRELY forbidden to meddle with the church's business.

No other option is acceptable.

Madison's 15 bullet point list of why (based on the history of human government):

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu /sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:56:15 AM EST

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I agree with most of this, except "the debate is based on ENTIRELY secular arguments".

To begin with, I'm not even sure that such a standard is even possible.  Let's suppose that we argue that the minimum wage should be raised because income inequality is a problem.  Even this most apparently secular of arguments might (for some people) have a basis in religion, since the Judeo-Christian tradition is rife with teachings that the rich must give charity to the poor, and so on.  In a debate on wages, some people are inevitably going to come down on one side of the other at least partially because of their religious beliefs.  Change the subject to marriage equality or sex ed, and you can forget about entirely secular arguments altogether.  Just won't happen.

More than that, I'm not sure it's really so healthy.  No one would argue that it should be ok for a union member to say, "because my company is getting choked by health care costs, I think we should have a single payer health care system".  That person has a certain perspective on the issue, and should be allowed to advocate for it.  We don't all share that perspective, but if she brings enough people around to her side for whatever reason, then why shouldn't she get what she wants?  Similarly, what's wrong with a religious person saying something like "we are all created equally, and we should all be allowed to marry whomever we want"?  Wouldn't it be unhealthy to suppress that perspective?


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (2.00 / 1)

Dispatches is premised very much on the idea of separation of church and state. It is a foundational principal, that is fully integrated into the thinking of the writerrs and is as thoughtfully discussed as you will find in any political book anywhere. Here are a few quotes, just for example:

Here are a couple of quotes from the book:


Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State writes:


Federal laws regarding the role of religion in politics must be respected. Advocates of a progressive view of church and state must be careful not to repeat the mistakes of the Religious Right. Partisan politics has no place in any pulpit. People do not attend worship services to get a list of endorsed candidates. Biased voter guides that attack one candidate and praise another are an abomination. They have no place in our pews. Pastors can discuss issues. They need to refrain from endorsing or opposing candidates from the pulpit or using church resources to help or harm a candidate.


An overriding principle ties together the progressive view on church and state: It is perfectly appropriate, and indeed necessary, for laws to have a secular rationale. This means our nation is legally a secular state. We must not fear this. In fact, we must embrace it. Without the secular state, we are hopelessly at sea. Why? Secularism, despite what the Religious Right would have you believe, is not a corrosive force. It is not an anti-religious force. Secularism mandates neutrality, not hostility, toward faith. A secular government is one that recognizes that it has no religious functions.


Governments that bulldoze churches, ban private worship and arrest clergy are not promoting secularism. They are promoting hostility toward religion. A secular state allows many religions to flourish. It extends preference toward none but welcomes all. It neither aids nor hinders religion.


Chip Berlet, Senior Analyst at Political Research Associates opens his essay:


When I speak in public about my criticisms of the Religious Right, I often identify myself as someone who is trying to help build a Religious Left. A common response to this statement is, "Oh great, that's all we need. Now we'll have twice as many problems." I hope that is not the case, as I don't think additional problems are the likely outcome of attempts to remobilize a Religious Left in the United States.


On the contrary, I have faith that the resurgence of an authentic, politically dynamic Religious Left will be part of a new broad progressive coalition that will help fulfill the long delayed promise of American democracy for all people, especially those who have historically been oppressed, marginalized, and abandoned by our society.


Throughout our history as a nation, Religious Left activists have been fierce advocates for justice and equality and opponents of unfair concentrations of privilege and power. In addition, they have joined with secularists and civil libertarian religious conservatives to defend our Constitutional tradition of separation of church and state.


by Frederick Clarkson on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 01:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

This is the first time I've seen that Rev. Barry Lynn statement.  That's great stuff!!


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 02:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

....lots more where that came from! My pesonal favorite is when Rev. Peter Laarman mentions that religious progressives have separation of church and state woven into their DNA.

What you read in this book is much more like what the religious left is really about than the consultant driven milquetoastery on TV. Promise.


by Frederick Clarkson on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 03:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I am a jewish born atheist.  As a person who has been a practicing jew, I very much understand the need to protect freedom of concsience for minority religious views.  As an atheist I believe that policy driven by anything other than the empirical, confirmable, and nonsupernatural, is a huge invitation to disaster. (If your decisions aren't based on these things then you're begging to be wrong IMO.)  Balancing those 2 goals is a challenge.  I find it stimulating and the idea that America is supposed to be about doing both fills me with pride for my country.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 06:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I agree with almost all of that sentiment - and I think Lynn's contrast of secularism with hostility towards religion is well-described.  (Haven't gotten around to reading that part of the book, unfortunately.)  I don't think that public debate should be sanitized of religious language or values, though - it's not possible and not fair to religious folks.

As for the law having a secular rationale, that is a very complex question.  Certainly, laws should be fair to people of any, or no, faith.  And they should be enforced in a way which guarantees equal protection to everyone.  But some legislators are obviously going to vote for laws because of their own religious convictions, or because of those of many of their constituents.  There's no requirement that legislators vote based on purely secular reasons, nor that voters vote for their elected officials based on purely secular reasoning, so how could we guarantee that all laws have a secular rationale?


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 05:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I think that "congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion" should be interpretted to mean that legislators may not vote based on religious views.  After all, if I pass a bunch of laws that are identical to those of a particular religion then I have brought people into compliance with that religion long before I ever have to pass a law which makes that religion official.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 06:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

When you get into the territory of negating the votes of the people's representatives because their motivations were wrong - which is the natural policy implication of your interpretation of the Establishment Clause - you're on really, really dicey ground.  Our protection against "a bunch of laws that are identical to those of a particular religion" is the Supreme Court's respect for basic human rights; I can't think of any religion whose tenets, if put into place by a coercive power, wouldn't violate people's rights.


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by mistersite on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 12:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

What if it is not the success in passing "a bunch of laws that are identical to those of a particular religion" that is having such an oppressive effect, but the attempt or even  the promised attempt that is doing it and violating everyone's human rights in the process?

I am not saying that my idea has to be the answer, but I do believe that something must be done and very soon to enforce the separation.

Suppose for a moment that some day in between W's inauguration and January 20, 2009 was the last day on which we could get serious about global climate change and still have time to save our collective patoots.  The fact that republicans have run on a "family values" platform and are anti-choice, and nose into stuff like the Schaivo case has been getting them electoral success specifically because we fail to enforce the separation at either the voter or the representative level.  The vaunted republican GOTV effort comes from the evangelicals who make up the activist class of the party.  They do this because of the promise of overturning Roe, or instituting gay marriage bans.  They come to vote for Faith Based Initiatives and abstinence only school programs and get refusal to address global climate change with the package.  

They aren't just getting that for themselves, but for me, and you, and the community, and the country, the world, the future of humanity...

Suppose we still have another 50 years until "Save our patoots day" comes and goes, but there is another heretofore unseen disease coming humanity's way.  Suppose that the only possible cure for it would have come only through stem cell research and the time required to figure out, and produce it would have required us to have been doing research by no later than a month ago?

Again, I am not stubborn about insisting that my idea be the one that is implemented to address this.  I just posit the everyone's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is already on really, really dicey ground do to a failure to insist on keeping it secular.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 01:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

I can see your basic frustration, but I think ultimately the answer is to out-democracy these folks, not to insist on a standard which isn't realistic, and not really desirable.  Consider the kinds of laws which had religious constituencies through the ages (civil rights, workers' rights, etc.), and imagine what would happen if we threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Beliefnet estimates that there are almost as many Religious Left voters as there are Religious Right.  The Religious Right is stronger because it is much better organized, so we need to out-organize them.  More details on how, exactly, we do that, later today...


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:27:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

(I am posting this here because I don't wish to hijack the conversation in your most recent diary.  I also want to comment that, while I disagree with some of your views, I really am enjoying your very informative, well written, and thoughtful diaries.)

Asking me to accept the idea of "out democracying the religious right" by organizing the religious left is like asking me to accept bad methodology that I have identified as bad methodology simply because a more likable team is implementing it.

If Tomás de Torquemada is guiding our society by dumping a pouch full of chicken bones and stones on the ground and reading them each time we need to make a choice of direction, then the extremely likely bad outcome will be the result of deciding to follow the advice of the bones more than it is the fault of the horrible person who dumped the pouch.  Shoving Torquemada aside and instead having Mother Theresa dump and read the bones from now on simply puts a more likable person in charge of dumping the pouch.  Reading the bones is still an inadequate approach to decision making and will still lead to disaster.  

I have no problem if people want to use the pouch of bones method in their personal lives (in fact I would fight vigorously to keep the state from interfering), but to allow it in public decision making for all is to make laws concerning the establishment of religion.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:07:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Sorry, I'm a vegetarian. :)

I guess at the end of the day it's just a matter of personal conscience, from my point of view.  You can't stop people from making decisions however they want, and that goes from what to have for dinner to how to vote.  You can't stop people from saying what they want to say about a political issue, no matter how foolish or misguided you may think that opinion is.  Nor can you stop people from organizing along whatever lines they like to organize, as long as the laws about non-partisan activity are followed.  These are all fundamental rights.

Contra-wise, you can't be neutral on a moving train, as Howard Zinn says.  To refrain from organizing liberal people of faith is to simply cede the religious voice on public issues to the Religious Right.  That's how we got into all of this trouble in the first place.

Anyway, I'm glad you like the posts!  Thanks.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 12:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

These are all fundamental rights.

and what of everyone else's right to not be steered into human extinction by people foisting compliance with their religious views on everyone else?  To allow religiously motivated politics is theocracy, not Jeffersonian democracy.  It is to allow religious people to choose species wide suicide for all.  Yeah, it is a matter of conscience.   It's a matter of the framers' intention too.  It was Jefferson himself who coined the phrase separation of church and state for exactly this purpose.

Contra-wise, you can't be neutral on a moving train, as Howard Zinn says.  To refrain from organizing liberal people of faith is to simply cede the religious voice on public issues to the Religious Right.

Two wrongs don't make a right.  Neither does offsetting an unconstitutional mingling of religion and politics by the folks on the right with an unconstitutional mingling of religion and politics on the left.

You can't stop people from making decisions however they want, and that goes from what to have for dinner to how to vote.

As for laws governing what is allowed to influence an elected official's actions in public life, don't we have laws requiring judges to recuse themselves when something beyond public service might influence them in carrying out their duties?  Yes, we do.  Judges recuse themselves for conflicts of interest all of the time.  Decisions are overturned on appeal on the grounds that the judge should have recused their self.  

We have laws regarding and limiting how a politician is allowed to be influenced by lobbyists, political donors, business partners, etc.  Gods get an exception?  How about if I just make the claim that my lobbyist is a superhuman god?  I actually do believe that person does have  the right in this country to both believe and claim that their lobbyist is a god.  That's religious freedom.  What that person does not have the right to do is claim that the rest of us should honor his god or anyone else's  with a special exception to the rules regarding influencing politicians and maintaining separation between church and state.

I am not buying the idea that we cannot enforce rules on this.  I believe that Jefferson, Madison, Franklin et al intended it to happen and made it the law.

You can't stop people from saying what they want to say about a political issue, no matter how foolish or misguided you may think that opinion is.  Nor can you stop people from organizing along whatever lines they like to organize, as long as the laws about non-partisan activity are followed.

I have not said that others cannot say whatever they want.  I have not said that people cannot reason however they want.  I have said that our government needs to honor the intended purpose of separating church and state utterly.  

That's how we got into all of this trouble in the first place.

I would say that it was tolerating the religious right's constant violations of the separation of church and state that got us in trouble in the first place.  it has been the failure of our society to stand up and tell the religious right that we won't stand for it that got us in trouble in the first place. Our society must tell the religious right that we reject this mingling of religion and politics.  We must do it firmly.  We must do it with education.  We must do it with law.  Fortunately, that law already exists and it has a really big signature from John Hancock on it along with several of the other men who created this secular government for the good of all religious and non religious people.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 01:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Barack Obama explained it very well.  I wish that I could find the youtube vid.  He gave a speech regarding the role of religion in politics at a huge and beautiful church from behind a big rostrum made of boulders.  

What he said was that there is not really anything wrong with your religious views motivating your political views, but that you need to find a secular argument in order for your policy desires to be (a) within the spirit of the Constitution and(b) have any chance of garnering support from the less faithful or nonbelievers.  

He used Abraham and Isaac as an example.  He said that, if today, we saw a man raise a knife to plunge into his young son's chest that we should expect all good people to act immediately to subdue and disarm that man.  Even if that man were Abraham acting under God's direction, stopping him would still be the right thing for everyone else to do.  Only Abraham hear's God speaking the orders.  The others do not and thereby have a responsibility to protect the innocent young man.

Today, a person driven by their faith to endorse a political view is just like Abraham.  People who don't share that person's faith, who embrace a different faith or no faith at all, do not hear the same orders and aren't driven by the same doctrine and that is as much their right as is the faithful person's right to have their reasons.  However, with a secular argument, we have ideas and observable realities that everyone can see regardless of religious stripe.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 02:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Yeah, I remember that speech, but like you, I can't remember when it was.  Rats!

In any case, I think this is a good way of putting it.  People can say what they like and can try to justify their positions in any way they like.  People who try to justify their positions with their religious language are, in some cases, going to have a narrower reach than people who use secular language.  In some cases, they'll have a broader reach.  That's just how things work.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 05:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Political theology and the Religious Left (none / 0)

Growing up in Canada - the GREAT leftists were from the Christian tradition.

Recently Tommy Douglas (the leader of the left of center CCF now called the NDP) was voted the "Best Ever Canadian". Tommy had been a Minister and was the FIRST to introduce Universal Healthcare in Saskatchewan. From there he and the party forced the center party (the Liberals) to introduce it country wide.

The BIG difference between Canadian religious people and American is that the Canadians are "New Testament - pro Jesus" rather than "Old Testament - creationists" types. Tommy believed that a Christian could not have a clear conscience while children and families went without healthcare.

I think many American Christians share this more enlightened view. It's not that Canadian Christians don't have strong views on Gays and Abortion - many do - BUT they recognize these are PERSONAL issues, better left out of the political sphere.

Stephen Harper the Prime Minister and a Conservative, is an American style religious nutcase himself and yet has sworn that his personal views on Abortion and Gays will not be translated to political action. Most Canadians believe him - personally - I don't - BUT so far he has kept his word.


by 1Mylegacy on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 01:11:36 PM EST


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