Here we stand: counting delegates

I don't think I'll ever look at a poll quite the same way, after those New Hampshire results. There are a couple of important skeptical lessons to view polls through: don't discount the last day trend in a tracking poll, don't trust weekend polling, and don't buy into conventional wisdom; but there was something beyond the polls that we all learned.

I felt like the outside looking in all last week, as I kept saying that the democratic nomination wasn't over, again and again, and the hype said the opposite.

Many of you now see the same thing: three very strong national candidacies that are self-funded and have the ability to confront and defeat whatever mass media narrative is cast against their campaigns. Instead of a media-driven coronation that's over-hyped by the supporters of one candidate who got a few delegates in one state, we will have a long protracted battle in which all the delegates need to the win nomination are what's going to matter. That's a very good thing.

We've too often had a scenario, egged on by the centrist punditry class, that has anointed itself as the decider of partisan nominations in the past. IA and NH represent 1% of the population, and happen to be first in the nominating process, but why should that be the end, rather than just the beginning?

There was hope against the hype, going into New Hampshire, that it wouldn't be the end in '08; and now we can all see that, at least for this cycle, that beast has been bested. There's also hope it'll never have that power over the nomination process again-- nothing bucks tradition quite like a precedent.

I have nothing against IA and NH going first. In fact, I love the tradition and process those two states go through in voting. I would not change that at all; but the other 48 states count too.

On to the delegate count after NH, a feature you'll see a lot of around here in the coming months, and always available on the right hand side, in widgets (revamped) that can be placed throughout the net:

Democrats
         NH    Total
Obama     9    25
Clinton   9    24
Edwards   4    19
If that's not a race, then nothing is. Certainly, Obama and Clinton have a monetary edge over Edwards, but don't discount earned media or Edwards having enough funds to compete well enough. All of the post-Iowa national polls have shown Edwards trending up into the 20 percents, and he's viable. There is no frontrunner. I still predict that Clinton will ultimately win the nomination, but I care more about it being a battle in which everyone participates that wants too than I do about the ultimate Democratic nominee.

Michigan comes next, with 156 delegates that will go to the DNC convention under the threat of not being counted. I believe they will be seated and cast their delegates for the nomination. Some of you (many of the same people who erroneously argued that it was over before it wasn't) believe otherwise. And yet, I don't hear those also call for the stripping of IA and NH's delegates for also violating the DNC rules. There's a hypocrisy here that will not stand the scrutiny. All the delegates from IA, NH, MI, and FL, will be counted.

Republicans
         NH    Total
Romney    4    21
Huckabee  1    14
McCain    7    12
Thompson        8
Paul            4
Hunter          1
Giuliani        1
Despite the ridicule aimed at Romney, the truth is that if he does continue to rack up a bunch of silver medals, and various others place first, he's going to be in the lead for gaining the nomination.

I don't have a crystal ball good enough to see into the muddle that is the GOP nomination this cycle. I am not convinced that McCain can actually win in a primary that doesn't include a strong independent or cross-over vote. It sure looks like it will be a brokered convention.



Display:


counting delegates (none / 0)

... After Iowa and New Hampshire is worthless.

Ny or Il have more than both combined for an example.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 07:50:49 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I believe they will be seated and cast their delegates for the nomination.

Does that make any difference? Does it matter if the eventual nominee wins with 4350 votes or with 4318?

Of course the delegates will be seated in the end. However, they will not be allowed to vote for their pledged choice. They will only be allowed to vote on the final ballot when the other states have already chosen the nominee.


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:00:18 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I didn't realize Michigan had a reasonable case.  I'm glad you linked that letter.

Be that as it may, everyone's understanding of the status quo is that Michigan and Florida will not count and everyone else will.  Now, if there's a clear nominee, then it makes no difference.

But let's say the race is close enough for Michigan and Florida to decide the nominee.  The only scenarios in which those states can be counted are: (1) the frontrunner consents to let those states vote, thereby giving away the presidential nomination, or (2) the states are permitted to vote against the will of the frontrunner, changing the outcome and potentially enraging half the party.  It's not clear to me which scenario you envision.

Surely Obama and the others took their names off the Michigan ballot in reliance on the DNC ruling that the delegates wouldn't count.  Did the DNC expressly say that their ruling was only tentative or something?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:01:07 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Imagine if Obama and Clinton are tied going into the convention, and the DNC reverses itself and allows Michigan's delegates to cast their votes during the first ballot. Since Clinton was the only candidate on the primary ballot there, she gets all the delegates and wins the nomination.

That would be seen as a betrayal of the African American base, Obama's supporters, and the democratic process. Clinton's nomination would be as legitimate as the Presidency of Saddam Hussein, as she too would be the only candidate on the ballot. That scenario would tear the party apart, and deservingly so.  

Michigan will only get a vote if they vote unanimously with all the other states on the last ballot. In the end, they will have NO effect on who becomes the nominee.


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Uh, you're a little over the top here.  But really I'm interested to see Jerome defend his argument, not other people arguing the same side of it as me.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

If he's arguing what I think he's arguing (he's never very clear on such things), that Michigan's Clinton delegates will actually have an effect on who becomes the nominee, I'd like to see him defend his argument, too.


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:13:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

It could just as easily be thrown back with the same righteousness that Obama would be trying to steal the nomination only by excluding the democratic representation of Florida and Michigan. How does that sound?

You think that Obama is going to be helped toward the nomination by crying that everyone's racist if he doesn't win? I don't tolerate that crap.

Obama kicked an old lady off the ballot to win an election. More power to him; he did whatever it took. This is hardball politics man, get used to it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Florida's a slightly different story, only because all the candidates are on the ballot there. The voters there actually have a fair choice between the candidates.

However, in no universe can the vote in Michigan be seen as the slightest bit legitimate. Having only one candidate on the ballot is not democratic in the least. You do understand that, don't you?

I don't recall Obama whining at all that people are racist if he doesn't win. Do you have a source for that?


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

The problem with this part of your argument is that Obama voluntarily took his name off the ballot.  The DNC didn't ask him to do that.  he did it in order to try to screw Clinton, and Edwards and the others were dumb enough to go along with him.  Obama can't now complain that it's undemocratic because he's not on the ballot.  He made his bed.  I suggest he lie in it.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

So when Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson, et al follow the DNC's ruling that Michigan broke the party rules (after being warned, repeatedly)...you think it is perfectly fair and democratic for them to be blamed when Clinton wins an election when she is the only candidate on the ballot? Voters have no choice, but the party bosses get to choose who gets the nomination?

As far as I'm concerned, the Michigan democratic party made their bed and they should lie in it.


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

NH and IA broke those same rules. What about that?


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Does the DNC care?


by Kal on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

The Michigan Democratic party isn't responsible for moving the date, so somebody else needs to lie in that bed.  And as I said, Obama and Edwards took their names off the ballot.  The DNC did not ask them to do it.  It was a stupid strategy to screw Clinton.

If Obama, Edwards, et al were just being good citizens as you suggest, why didn't they remove their names from the ballot in Florida as well?  The situation is exactly the same.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I seem to remember Carl Levin being very much in favor of breaking DNC rules (which state that only four states can have primaries before 2/5). Are you telling me he was in cahoots with some anti-Democratic forces in the state? Or was he used for some nefarious purpose, perhaps by Obama?


by Kal on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

What are you talking about? I don;t recall mentioning anything about Obama having anything to do with setting Michigan's date. And by the way, neither did Carl Levin.  The move was engineered by the Republicans in the Michigan legislature. Carl Levin doesn't have the power to do that, and he didn't.

Check your facts.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Michigan's One Person Ballot (none / 0)

Michigan's delegates will not be allowed to play any role in determining who our nominee is...period. Jerome is banging an empty tin can on this one.

Any other outcome would produce chaos at the convention, and despite the saying about how Democrats always manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, the national party is NOT THAT STUPID.  Ripping the party in half at a nationally televised convention is not going to cut it.  

Michigan's delegates will eventually be spectators (they can sit down even)...and yes, if there is already a consensus pick at the convention...as has been the case at all Democratic convention since 1984....Michigan's delegates might be allowed to symbolically pile their meaningless votes on as well.

If there is a contested count, however, they will not play a role.

As for that Michigan letter, wow, if you think that is persuasive (that Michigan was FORCED to jump into January because New Hampshire moved within January) my goodness, you are easy.

 


by Demo37 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan's One Person Ballot (none / 0)

Of course they weren't forced.  But if NH is able to break the rules with no penalty, why should Michigan face some draconian sanction for doing the exact same thing?  If the DNC wants to set the rules then it can't pick and choose who is allowed to break them, or there effectively are no rules.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Infractions, Misdemeanors and Felonies (none / 0)

C'mon, traditionally we make distinctions between the seriousness of transgressions.  So, for example, in criminal law there is typically a distinction between infractions, misdemeanors and felonies.  If I jaywalk and do not get a ticket (happens all the time), can someone who commits a felony say: hey, I should be allowed to commit a felon...because he didn't get a ticket for jaywalking?    

Taking the Michigan letter on its face that New Hampshire improperly jumped ahead of Nevada within the month of January (I don't particularly have the desire to Google for veracity at the moment), that is substantially an infraction.  It may or may not have called for some form of sanctions. Democratic party officials in Nevada may very well have been consulted (probably spoke to Reid), and they decided not to complain. It is assuredly within the discretion of the DNC to consult with party officials from an offended state, then decide on a de minimus punishment, or no punishment at all.  

By contrast, both Michigan and Florida attempted something very serious.  Here were two huge states, trying to jump into January 2008, ahead of some, or all, of the designated first four small states.  Their actions threatened to front load the primary process, in January of 2008, with big population, "wholesale-style" states.

Moreover, IIRC, there was a long drawn out dance that went on.  Florida and Michigan announced their intentions. The DNC told them not to do it. They thumbed their noses at the DNC and continued to advance.  Other big states began to rumble and make noises, talking about how they too wanted to jump into January. Chaos was on the horizon.  

The DNC was, therefore, essentially forced to act to prevent complete collapse.  They DNC warned Florida and Michigan not to do this, or face losing their delegates (partly, as a way to stop other states from embarking on a similar path.) In response, Florida and Michigan decided to flip the bird to the DNC and call its bluff.  They forced the DNC's hand! The DNC essentially had no choice but to honor its threat. Otherwise, they would have lost all credibility, and faced, you guessed it:  all the other states in the country jumping into the month of January 2008! Not good.


by Demo37 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Infractions, Misdemeanors and Felonies (none / 0)

Your assumption is that Nevada is the only state with standing to complain about New Hampshire's actions.  I don't agree with that.  More to the point, the mere existence of a counterargument does not mean that Michigan lacks a plausible case.

From Michigan's perspective, they agreed to a set of procedures that they really weren't happy with, subject to the understanding that everyone would have to follow the rules.  Then it turned out that, just like every other year, New Hampshire gets to do whatever the hell it wants and no one will lift a finger to stop them.  At that point, they're entitled to point out that they only agreed to the deal because it was supposedly going to be enforced.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

But it can't "just as easily" be considered that way, because there is a status quo, which is the DNC ruling that Michigan and Florida don't count.

If there had NOT been a ruling, then obviously anyone who tried to exclude those votes after the fact could be accused of disenfranchisement.

But if the DNC says they won't count, only to overturn that ruling, that is going to strike people as changing the rules in the middle of the game.  I'm a little surprised at your failure to understand this point, which is the key issue in the whole Michigan/Florida dispute.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I'm a little surprised at your failure to understand that MI and FL did the same thing as what NH and IA did.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Sure they did, and the DNC announced a punishment.  I may not think it's fair that they announced a punishment for one and not the other, but it's what they decided.  For the DNC to seat those delegates - or to unseat NH and IA, for that matter - would be a reversal of that decision.  It would be an undoing of the status quo, it would be a change of the rules in the middle of the game.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I don't pretend to be a convention scholar, but from what I understand, it won't be the DNC committee that decides it at the convention; it'll go to the floor and that's where they will be approved. Although there might be a rules committee formed there that gets to vote on it first-- it's probably pretty arcane.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (2.00 / 1)

thats your hope, but i dont believe it.

obama and edwards were glad for any excuse to stay out of mi because hill was ahead by like 78 percent when they made this decision.

they will count, both with the media and the voting delegate count,

by the way  - "african americans" will  vote for hillary in michigan, what about them?


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brokered convention? Never. (none / 0)

As much as everyone pines for the drama of a brokered convention, it'll never happen.  It wouldn't have happened if the Republican convention were held in July/August (like it used to be); it'll certainly never happen with the convention held in September.  There's just too much time for the Republican frontrunner to consolidate power and delegates.


by JBLIII on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:02:10 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Michigan won't matter. It'll matter as much as Wyoming mattered for Romney. Which is, not at all.

Hillary is polling at 48% in Michigan, FWIW.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:04:50 PM EST

The reason there won't be a brokered convention... (none / 0)

Money.

On the Democratic side, Edwards is going to be less and less viable as we get closer to the convention. It's hard to see a scenario where - after you count the superdelegates - Clinton or Obama don't have a majority going into the convention.

On the Republican side, there just aren't enough viable candidates to stick it out to the very end. I still think that Romney's going to emerge as the anti-Huckabee, simply because he has the money, and the others don't. I can see a scenario where the GOP convention is up in the air, but it's highly, highly unlikely. It'll be decided long before September. But it may be April before we know the Republican nominee.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:10:00 PM EST

will someone please explain (none / 0)

the voters' options in Michigan? I read somewhere that write-in votes will not be counted. Does that mean that voters can only choose between Clinton, Dodd and uncommitted?

Theoretically there could be a bunch of uncommitted delegates assigned by Michigan. Of course they will end up going to whoever wraps up the nomination, but still, it adds an interesting wrinkle.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:18:02 PM EST

Re: will someone please explain (none / 0)

I haven't actually seen the ballot, but in Michigan,  a candidate needs to actually register as a write-in to have their votes counted.  So it's the people you mentioned, plus Kucinich and Gravel.

If I can be perfectly honest, I told my dad in Michigan that he ought to vote for Hillary, as I really don't approve of this little uncommitted thing.  If you want people to vote for you, and this goes for my candidate too, you need to put your name on the ballot and ask for their vote, not pull out and beg them to play some silly little strategy game with you.  I feel bad for my folks and the voters of Michigan that they're getting disenfranchised out of a real choice.

My mom will be supporting Hillary until the cows come home, mind you, so I didn't have to give her any advice.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: will someone please explain (none / 0)

How do the people in Michigan feel about this whole thing?  I think it's been terribly mishandled by State and National committees. It's an internal squabble which hurts the voters and hurts the whole process.  


by Piuma on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: will someone please explain (none / 0)

I sense the rank-and-file voters are more confused than anything.

The issue of whether the delegates count would be inside baseball if not for the gambit of pulling those names off the ballot.  I wish the candidates hadn't done that.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: will someone please explain (none / 0)

they were playing cute games and its gonna burn both of them.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I don't think I will ever look at a blog post quite the same way again.


by aiko on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:22:19 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

If Michigan or Florida's delegates would make a difference in who the nominee is, then the voters in those states will not stand to have them discounted.  It is possible the 'no campaigning' pledge has already cost the Dems too much in Florida for the general, but I think it can still be won.

However, if the delegates would make a difference in the nominee and they are not authorized to be seated long before the first convention ballot is cast, then the public outcry in those states will be so strong the Dems will not be able to carry either in the general election.  

What does the map look like without Michigan or Florida? I honestly haven't looked but I would guess it is not very good at all.

The DNC knows this.  They also know that what has been said on this post is true: a hotly anticipated contest about whether the delegates will be seated or not would leave huge wounds in the party and millions of Democratic voters feeling disenfranchised no matter whether in the end the delegates are seated for the first ballot or not.

There will not be a public fight.  What we will see is after 2/5 shakes out and we know whether Michigan and Florida will make a difference, unnamed sources will start to tell the MSM that the delegates will be seated.  

I think this will not happen before 2/5 in the hopes that this doesn't need to be a big fight and the 2/5 results will be decisive enough that it no longer matters.  Once it does happen it will be a quiet build up over several months, not a huge fight at the door of the convention.

It will be interesting to see how the coverage games this out and whether the delegate count that Clinton is poised to win will make a difference in the momentum or not.

The DNC w


by rcipw on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:49:42 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Every candidate has already been saying that, in private, they will be seated; officials in Michigan have said as much already.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Jerome,

Is the question really whether they'll be seated?  Like Steve, I'd be curious to know what you think will happen if Michigan and Florida's delegates would be decisive.  Can you really envision the DNC allowing those delegates to be counted under those circumstances?  

Mind you, I understand that there's really no "good" option if that occurs.  But I have a hard time seeing the DNC decide to allow those two state's to decide the nomination after originally saying the primaries didn't count.  Whether the DNC was correct in their original action -- and I actually think they weren't, fwiw -- that would be changing the rules in the middle of the game.  


by HSTruman on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Jerome,

Is the question really whether they'll be seated?  Like Steve, I'd be curious to know what you think will happen if Michigan and Florida's delegates would be decisive.  Can you really envision the DNC allowing those delegates to be counted under those circumstances?  

Mind you, I understand that there's really no "good" option if that occurs.  But I have a hard time seeing the DNC decide to allow those two state's to decide the nomination after originally saying the primaries didn't count.  Whether the DNC was correct in their original action -- and I actually think they weren't, fwiw -- that would be changing the rules in the middle of the game.  


by HSTruman on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

If the DNC does not seat the delegates for the first ballot then the Dems will not be able to carry Michigan or Florida.  In fact, unless it becomes well known the delegates will be seated well before the convention, both states will be in jeopardy.

The DNC will not allow that to happen, even if it flips who the nominee is.


by rcipw on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I don't understand this logic.  If it's a penalty that the DNC is not willing to stand behind under any circumstances, and everyone knows it, why did they even bother to impose it in the first place?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Dean was trying to bully FL and MI into changing their primaries. He tried to bluff, but MI and FL wouldn't budge, so he had to go through with it or have a real stampede. It was a boneheaded move, he should have worked out a compromise.


by souvarine on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 09:44:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I think that's way too inside-baseball to actually matter much to voters, but we will see.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  To repeat, I agree that the DNC was stupid in taking the action they did.  But I think changing the rules afterwards would truly be the worst idea possible.  


by HSTruman on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 11:27:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes it is inside baseball (none / 0)

But it would become a REPUBLICAN campaign issue in those states and with their echo chamber it would become a major, mainstream deal.  If hard core Democratic activists are seriously talking about sitting out the election because they feel disenfranchised by the DNC already, then it can be blown into a huge issue by the Republicans during the general election.


by rcipw on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes it is inside baseball (none / 0)

I suppose, but there would be a huge backlash in the media if the DNC essentially decided the nomination by seating delegates is said were invalid.  I can't even imagine the "Democrats in chaos" stories that would result.  

Honestly, I just hope it doesn't come down to those states b/c if it does there are not any good options available.  At that point, the debate is about least bad.


by HSTruman on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes it is inside baseball (none / 0)

I agree there aren't great options from a PR standpoint.  The DNC walked into this by making stupid bluffs.  I also think FL and MI went around what had been a national compromise.

But to my knowledge this thread isn't about good options vs. bad options.  This is about the practical situation of whether or not the MI and FL delegates will be seated.  Jerome is right and has been for a long time:  they will be seated.  They will impact the nomination if it comes to that.

This is just the reality and should be taken into account as people look at the next four weeks.

I think this is the reason Clinton was still very much viable even with a New Hampshire loss.  Now, I think it is why Obama's path is in doubt.  Can he even win NV or SC?  A lot of the buzz about him seems identical as going into New Hampshire.  Even if Obama gets them, Clinton would be a stronger position going into 2/5.  Without them....well....


by rcipw on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes it is inside baseball (none / 0)

Well, I disagree that the DNC's decision  on this point is a foregone conclusion and I think you're far too confident on that point.  It's also unclear  how, in the short term, those races will be covered by the media -- which is probably the more important point.  For Michigan in particular, I don't think Obama is hurt if the media essentially treats it as an uncontested race like the Republican caucus in Wyoming.  Florida is trickier, since all the candidates names are on the ballot.  

At any rate, the NH debacle clearly shows that none of us -- whoever we support -- should be too confident about how things are going to turn out.  Perhaps Obama loses NV and SC, in which case this thing is essentially over.  But if he does manage to win SC (let alone SC and NV), he'll have a real shot at winning the whole thing on Feb 5th.  Time will tell.


by HSTruman on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I thought it was:

Obama: 25
Clinton: 24
Edwards: 18

Not that it matters at this point.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:54:10 PM EST

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Moreover, the Democratic candidates need 2,025 delegates to get nominated because of the sanctions. I think we need to go with that for now.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

2209, you can think whatever you want; that's what will happen.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

Eventually that is what is going to happen, but that is not what the media is using to call a nominee. The media is using the sanctioned "math" and that is what will be accepted by the general public.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

I agree with everything in this diary and it was good to read you thinking clearly when it seemed that everyone hd decided to followthe media and go plain nuts.

Dems have to understand the pudocricy is not our friend.  The cost us2000, we  have to fight them qs we fight the gop.  There were few ports open in that storm of insanity in  recent days.  Thanks for providing a harbor.

screw the media village.  


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we stand: counting delegates (none / 0)

If we have a contested convention

I suspect that the party will simply let Michigan, Florida, et. al. count their January elections as beauty contests, and schedule delegate-awarding primaries, caucuses or state conventions sometime later in the calendar.  I can't imagine the party not letting a state like FL have a vote at a contested convention, not when we want FL to vote Democratic in the general election. And what we have to do for FL, we have to do for the other states.  And the candidates in contention at that point will surely all agree to letting these states hold late contests, out of the hope that they will thereby win delegate votes they need to win the nomination, and out of fear of offending these states, and fear of appearing to be afraid of not doing better than their opponents in such late contests.

And if we don't have a contested convention, the nominee will surely magnanimously insist on seating delegations from all states with full (though, in this scenario, meaningless) voting privileges.  The nominee will be in charge at that point, the rest of the party will defer to him/her out of a desire to see him/her win in the general, and the nominee will surely want to please voters in states like MI and FL by not having the party offend them even symbolically by denying their delegates even meaningless voting privileges.

The party's attempt to de-legitimize these early primaries was ill-conceived, both because the sanction of not voting won't be enforced whether or not the convention is contested, and because the de-legitimization is now, because NH and IA didn't yield a clear front-runner, working to blunt or even stop the formation of a consensus prior to Mega Tuesday.  And if there isn't a clear front-runner with momentum behind him/her going into Mega Tuesday, there very likely won't be one after, because with 21 contests, every candidate left in the field will win some of them, mixing the signals to the point that no front runner will likely emerge.  And no front runner by the time half the delegates are awarded means an excellent chance of no one getting a first ballot lock, and thus means a contested convention.  We need FL and MI to count now, not in some do-over only after we've lost the chance to finish this without a contested convention, because their not counting now is keeping a clear front runner from emerging, and is thus the only at all likely path to a contested convention.


the way up and the way down are one and the same
by gtomkins on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:10:01 AM EST

Senator Reid is responsible for this nightmare. (none / 0)

Harry Reid pressed too hard to get Nevada moved up on the calendar, and once Nevada was moved up all the other states wanted to be moved up to increase their influence in picking the next presidential nominee as well. And as a result we have super-duper-insane Tuesday, and Florida and Michigan have had their delegates stripped, which could potentially throw the Democratic convention into chaos and make Florida and Michigan difficult for the Democratic nominee to win in the general elections in November
Thank you very much Harry Reid.:(
In any case, assuming that NY and NJ will be givens for Hillary Clinton, then it will only be a contested nomination if Obama wins California.
What are the odds of that happening?
In any case I bet that if there is an equal delegate count between Obama and Clinton after super-duper-insane Tuesday, then I suspect Edwards will play king or queen maker and decide who out of those two should be the front runner.
The question then becomes; how nasty will Obama and Clinton get if the nomination becomes contested? Would either one hold their own ego above the stability of the party? Would the compromise be an Obama-Clinton (or Clinton-Obama) ticket?
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 03:33:19 AM EST

The Democratic National Convention... (none / 0)

...Is the highest authority of the Democratic Party of the United States.  That's what Article II, Section 2 of the Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States says.

The National Convention shall be the highest authority of the Democratic Party, subject to the provisions of this Charter.
What this means is that regardless of what the Democratic National Committee  does, the Democratic National Convention can assert its "highest authority" and decide not to follow the actions of the Democratic National Committee.

In regards to Florida and Michigan, whether or not their delegations will be seated and permitted to vote will be determined by the delegates at the 2008 Democratic National Convention.

As I've written in other posts on this subject, the question of Florida and Michigan will probably be one of the first orders of business undertaken in Denver.

Why do I say that?

Well, because the seating of Florida and Michigan's delegates is a question of each state's credentials; and that falls under the jurisdiction of the Democratic National Convention Credentials Committee.

The procedural rules of the Democratic National Convention calls for the report of the Credentials Committee to be "acted upon before the consideration of other business." [Source:  Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention, Article VIII, Section C., sub-section 1.]

What does this mean?

Well, it means that the credentials of Florida and Michigan will be voted on before the rules committee report, before the platform committee report, before the roll call vote for the presidential nomination.  It is the first order of business.

This is where the delegate count comes into play.  

If Hillary has more delegates than Obama, but needs Florida and/or Michigan to put her over the top, more than likely she will instruct her delegates to vote to seat Florida and Michigan.  That's just one of many scenarios though.

But the fact is that the first order of business will be the seating (and credentialing) of Florida and Michigan's delegates.


by andrewalker08 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:04:37 AM EST

Conn. and NJ (none / 0)

Off-topic of this post (sorry) ...

I've read some state-by-state "analyses" of Feb. 5, that presumptively awarded NJ and CT to Hillary.  On the basis of proximity, I guess.

I grew up in Connecticut, actually served on a Dem. Town Committee, and have lived in NYC area for 27 years.  I see exactly zero political sphere of influence overlapping the state borders. Not NYC-based media buys; that's a different thing.

What is the rationale, the informed basis, for making Hillary such a presumptive favorite in NJ and CT?

For example (not to be taken literally), if someone said, "Joe L. stills controls the levers of power in CT Dem party, and he's a Hillary ally," okay ... something like that.

But just on geography and a wave of the hand, that's not enough.


by commissar on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 11:39:10 AM EST


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