But the real story is John Edwards not deciding who his opponent is.

Honest question. Do you think the Edwards/Obama (and sort of Richardson) teaming up on the sole woman on the stage will backfire perceptionally?

I liked Clinton's passion about the change she has brought about. The only thing missing was her yelling "What the hell is wrong with you people?!" at the end of her response.

The story of the teenager in California passing away because of managed care is a rallying cry of universal health care.

Good response by Edwards. I say that as a Clinton supporter.

hs usee of the word cchnge 122 tims in one answer sounded silly.

are you guys gonna tell us whether the press is rooting for or against any of the candidates?

thats important info.  

Ouch. Gibson not allowing Obama to whizz by. (But of course Obama supporters will call him biased.)

obama isnt sounding as good now, stuttery

"can we have a reality check" Thats not going to go well for Clinton.

2005 ENERGY BILL AND OBAMAS NH CHAIR IS A LOBBYIST FOR THE DRUG COMPANIES!!

BURN!

Clinton is kicking ass!

Edwards calling for busting up phara and insurance companies...hell yeah!

Good response by Obama. That "reality check" comment is going to end up in a stump speech tomorrow, I'll guarentee it. That was bad.

if he gave away all of his millions to the poor except say five mill, which would still give him 300 grand a year to live off of just interest wise.

Though I agree with his rhetoric, i am getting very sick of this rich guy pretending hes Spartacus.

Im Spartacus!

Hillary sounds shrill and angry. What is she talking about with 35 years of experience? She was the wife of a Governor and President....his accomplishments were not hers....she hasnt done shit....who the hell is she kidding. She is entrenched in Washington greed and thirst for power. She doesnt like being challenged and is angered by it. She has never been challenged until this campaign and she cant handle it.....she is on the verge of being unhinged.

I liked the absence of Kucinich rants and Gravel finger-wagging.

I missed those hilarious Joe Biden zingers that managed to break the tension.

Richardson is a toad.....get off the stage.....like listening to grass grow...

made Survivor-type deals with everyone?

Edwards does his lifting on HRC, now Richardson on Edwards.

I don't think Obama was particulary strong tonight (but made no real mistakes) -- but everything's really just breaking his way right now.

First part:
You live in Denver Colorado...
What if you woke up with 20 feet of snow, how would you get bread? How would Jack get bread?

Now...
Intro..Let's skip the intro
Let's skip Edwards and Richardson
As this is only between Clinton and Obama
You two respond...

Seriously...
Am I the only one to see a pattern?

Ah, a new thread. No wonder I was talking to myself over there.

To reiterate: I liked Obama's line about how cap-and-trade will affect consumers. Upfront and honest.

Gibson: Won't someone think about the $200,000 income folks?

What professors are pulling in more than $200,000 a year? Nice slam from all the candidates on that piece of punditry "we have no clue about the lives of actual Americans" bs.

Richardson just had the moment of the debate!

Hillary was a little sluggish in the first part of the debate but she owned the second half. if you can't see that then you might have CDS.

Obama did not win that debate. I think the narrative may actually change and Obama might actually get some scrutiny after this.

Hillary was great but please, continue to drink the kool-aid.

give it a rest

Initial takeaway: Obama gets to play frontrunnerPosted: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:40 PM by Chuck Todd

From NBC's Chuck Todd
The focus on this debate for so many in New Hampshire and the media was twofold -- how would Obama handle being the frontrunner and how would Clinton handle be the challenger. Well, thanks to a subdued format, Obama seemed to pass his test with flying colors. He got to look in command (telling Edwards, politely, when it was his turn to speak); he went defended himself against Clinton by lecturing her tone and then got to look like the "normal" one by letting the moderator know who won the 'Skins game.

I'm not sure David Axelrod could have scripted this debate better if he did it himself.

Clinton as challenger? Well, she was dealt a real bodyblow when Edwards decided to defend Obama from the Clinton attack early on in the debate; that exchange will be the one played over and over again and it's not good for Clinton.

It was closer to a draw than anyhing. Obama took the first half and Hillary the second half.

I'm glad Richardson cleared up that whole Whizzer White thing. (And no, that isn't snark).

Otherwise, this debate didn't seem particularly special. I miss Joe Biden and Dennis Kucinich.

Top headline on Yahoo News is The AP's "Clinton Accuses Obama Of Changing Positions." This is exactly the story Clinton wanted coming out of this debate.

I'm not so sure about that.  There are two parts of that headline and the first is "Hillary Accuses".  That's negative and that is not a reason to vote for her.  What she needs at this point is to give people a reason to vote for her.  To appear negative is just more of the same old same old politics Obama has positioned himself as the answer to.  

OBAMA  talks against lobbyists but his NH chair, and national co-chair are registered lobbyists.

Obama promised to vote against war funding, but he voted for over 300 billion in war funding.

There's enough there if they want to be fair

Clinton, Edwards, Obama, Richardon.

Edwards, Obama, Clinton, Richardson...

Won
clinton - stayed on offense, informed people of obama's lobbyists, passionately defended her change theme, looked good playing gender card

Second place
Edwards- stayed on message, got most speaking time

third
Richardson- only governor or person with executive experience. presented his best case

last
Obama--no big mistakes but was on defense, didn't answer lobbyist charge, and  lost a chance to win the race tonight

my rankings are based upon subtsance, poise, humility, honesty and appearing presidential..

this is a strange race.
Hillary, lost Iowa, now she's on the brink.

but

Obama is one loss away from being out.  He loses NH, he's finished.  SC will  get discounted even if he wins because of black vote.

Obama needed to be on 100% offense. He should have had Edwards' night.

but the msm has been letting obama play the race card for free.

Edwards loses out as the white guy.

richardson had a chance with the hispanic thing, didn't work out.

Hillary won, and I'm glad.

Obama didn't have a killer instinct, and it may cost him the election. He loses tues. he's out on feb. 5.

She won? Her "moment" is already on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07u6uffKv pA

NH voters don't like being told that they need to face "reality".

Whatever benefit Hillary gains from the debate will not be enough to stop the Obama freight train.

"At some point, probably when the missiles have been launched, the Pakistani government has to know they are on the way."  Whoa.  Someone's feeling her oats, what a statement especially considering her comments on Obama's now conventional wisdom on Pakistan.  Sheesh.

I think they all did very well. I do have a problem with Hillary Clinton's definition of change: "I am a woman." It is an extremely sexist position and I abhor it. In the abstract I agree with her but politically speaking it is a sexist ploy and I lost respect for her for using it. Status quo under a different gender is still status quo.

Wow, wow, wow. That is NOT Clinton's definition of change. Her definition of change the ability to work hard for the needs of the people and not just hoping or demanding for it. Her comments were only one reason why it would be "change" if she is elected, but it is definitely not her definition. Obviously you did not listen to her during the debate.

NRO gives the kind of deep analysis we've come to expect:

Husbands vs. Hillary?   [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

An e-mail:

   Did you notice the "look" that HRC was giving to the other candidates when they disagreed with her.  It was the "look" every husband has seen a million times - and I am happily married.  I showed it to my wife and she agreed.  That may not help her with votes from men.

it showed passion.  It's the opposite of  the media's entitlement narrative.

Before the debate, I was skeptical that Hillary could be ahead on Monday, and was only hoping that the poll numbers trend back toward her.

NOW I EXPECT HILLARY TO LEAD ON MONDAY'S POLLS.

So, I am upgrading my criteria:  If Hillary is not leading in the Monday Polls, she is in trouble and will lose NH and SC.

But, now I would bet Hillary leads for a number of reasons:

people want a race
Obama didn't go for the kill
Hillary on offense; offense wins Period.

Since Facebook partnered with ABC for the debate, their polling is being used:

Facebook poll post-debate, most presidential:

Obama 46%
Clinton  25%
Edwards 21%
Richardson 8%

I'm an HRC supporter, and I beleive she did the best in the debate.  She started to make the arguments that BO's words don't always match his actions.

That being said, I feel BO will win NH and then SC, which will not knock out HRC.  She is still counting on Mich, FLA and the Feb 5 states.

The interesting thing for me going forward is whether the media will take a look at BO's record, after all, he is the front runner, and it is the media's duty.

the media truly do hate Hillary for a number of reasons.  

BUT

They love their jobs, and traveling to each state, and being excited about a race more than the hatred.

Hillary will get a fair press for 2 days.  He'll never make it to feb 5 the same person.

I think the MSM want's a dog fight. That is why they showed the poll with Obama and Hillary tied.

The other polls are starting to show the Obama bounce.

that is the best headline she's gotten all year

Hillary announces all this change talk is unrealistic:

""We don't need to be raising the false hopes of our country about what can be delivered"

-NH Debate, 1/05/2008

they are up 1 point, all they need is 1 first down.

they went conservative. Now they have to give the ball up.  Should have played for the kill and end the game.

Clinton lost and badly.  Only a clinton supporter would say she won.  

1. Edwards - most to the point, best debater, tried making this between him Obama, effectively communicated his vision of change, and made a nice ploy to young voters (which is what him + Hillary NEED to do)
   
2. Clinton - slower at the start, but was better spoken than Obama (and lets please not mention Bill). Made nice jabs at Obama, probably fended off the 2-way race Edwards tried to make out of it, but fell short of a great debate.
   
3. Obama - not particularly bad but not particularly great either. Strategically speaking that may have been okay for him, but on the merits of the debate, he tended to ramble a bit and didn't say all that much particularly engaging in addition to his usual weak debate performance.
   
4. Richardson - worst. debater. ever.

Someone in the first debate thread said that Hillary Clinton uttered this line:

"I'm for change. The same change we've had for 35 years now."

Did she, in fact, say this?  

If so...I guess we will have to wait for the transcript...then that line might be used tomorrow by Obama and Edwards...mercilessly. If she said it, it's going to hurt....

Again, I guess we will await the transcript.  

Minor Point:  Hillary's new attack tonight was a strange one suggesting that Obama has "changed" his position on health care.

Clearly, the health care plan Hillary is offering now as the solution to our health care problems, is dramatically different from her health care plan from the 1990's.  Which plan is the correct one?  The earlier one?  Or this one?  Simply put, she has changed her plans. Shall we rake her over the coals now?  

Moreover, a truly honest assessment (hello MSM journalists...do you do research at all?) of Hillary's actual actions AFTER her failure to pass her plan in 1993, was that she herself retreated to pushing incremental approaches to expanding health care.

In all her years in the Senate, she has introduced ZERO (did I mention zero?) UHC legislation that would insure all Americans. Does she now get to say that in those zero years, she was "for" UHC? Is it all about a state of mind?

Hillary has changed from her first UHC plan (failure) to an incremental approach, to advocating for (but not introducing in the Senate?) her brand new UHC plan.  

Are we also supposed to rake her over the coals for these changes?

Reuter's spin was a bit different:

MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (Reuters) - Democrat Hillary Clinton, attempting to slow Barack Obama's surging campaign, went on the attack on Saturday and drew a sharp rebuke from John Edwards for defending the status quo.

John Whitesides Edwards rebukes Clinton in Democratic debate Reuters 5 Jan 08

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/?h pid=topnews

this is the best press Hillary has ever gotten.  We'll see if it makes it to the print editions around the country.

They had the lead.

Didn't go for the kill. Punted the ball.

Gave up a field goal.

Now they lose.

Go Hillary!

Fatigue?
Don't know...
However,; Edwards spoke with more energy(passion?)
I kept waiting for the Obama moment that resonates in his speeches...still waiting.
Hillery...she really played the Bill was a great President..
.,,,
The bullshit hypothetical...
Tell ya what...getting nuked is nowhere on my list..
the economy yes...Health care...no need to talk about that...

Obama did not seem fired up..
Clinton..did not hurt did not help.
Edwards..pretty intense..
Richardson..gone after this...

after watching the republicans...

Gonna be a good year to be a proud member of the Democratic Party.

Obama and Robert Kennedy.

I'm only 29.  Originally from Iowa, but now a Missourian.  I have to admit I'm a bit jealous of my former Iowans.  I wish I could have participated in the Iowa caucuses, to have my voice count at such a resonating level (not to say my primary and general election votes don't matter).  Anyway, that's beside the point.  I'm a white, middle-class, married woman.  Now you have my stats.  Each time I see an Obama speech (via his website or YouTube or TV) I can't help but be reminded of Bobby Kennedy.  Not that I lived during his time, but I've seen his speeches on TV and YouTube and have seen his son speak....in southern Mississippi of all places.  Bobby Kennedy told the truth, in a poetic, enlightened, compassionate way that woke people up from their comfortable slumber....or overworked, tired apathy....the same way Obama does.  They both encourage us, push us, drive us to do good, to make the changes we're too afraid to make, to step out of comfort zones we've been hesitantly unwilling to step out of; even those of us who've demanded drastic change, but haven't felt the right time had come.  I hear tones of Dr. King, Jr. in his voice.  My skin speckles with bumps each time.  

Sitting in my living room the other night, thursday night, watching the results come in, having my high school-age brother and upper-50's year old in-laws participate in the caucuses for the first time....it's obvious something major, something revolutionary is about to take place.  If Bobby Kennedy couldn't do it then, Obama can do it now.  We've grown, we've learned, we're now ready to begin finishing the work that was taking place in the late 60's.  Time for Change has come again.    

And with this debate tonight, Obama resonated once again.  Showing his intelligent constraint, careful wisdom, mild defenses, and encouraging ideals.  He doesn't just tell us what he thinks, what his policies are, but gives us hope, pushes us to believe things long-desired can be accomplished, that really we do have the power, each and every one of us, to make the United States what we want: a just, free, and equal country for all.  Just like Bobby Kennedy did.  He's putting the ball in our court, not just in his.  And his message is that we can achieve it.  It's very attainable and Iowa showed us that.

Some of these questions were really weird.  The one that was like "if we get attacked with a nuclear weapon in the next ten years, what will we wish we had done to prevent it"... it's like asking us to predict what we are going to fail to do.  Totally weird.

The final question about taking something back from an earlier debate was kind of witty.  Richardson obviously scores the most points for taking back a significant gaffe and doing it in a funny way.  Edwards didn't take back anything significant, but he was personable and at least answered the question.  Hillary and Obama... I very much liked what they had to say, but I was struck by the fact that neither of them wanted to answer the question.  Being unable to admit a mistake is kind of a red flag after the last 8 years.

I'll copy a post I made in the other thread regarding that last question, before I realized there was a new thread:

OMG!  Obama made the point about the fundamental difference between the Democratic nominee, whoever it may be, and the Republican nominee.  Mind you, he had to echo Hillary to say it, but it's still what I've been begging him to say all along.

For the next 24 hours, I am now an Obama fan.  We'll see where we go from there. :)

As for Edwards, I know there are some people that just aren't into his message, and that's fine.  But for those who are receptive to what he's selling, he absolutely CRUSHED tonight.  It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

The media narrative throughout this campaign has been the two-way race between Hillary and Obama, with Edwards as the ignored afterthought.  He's trying very hard to transform it into a two-way race between himself and Obama as the two "change" candidates who are saying something interesting and worth listening to, with Hillary as the "old news" candidate who everyone can safely write off.  It's an interesting strategy and I'm glad to see him still swinging away.