Post Debate Thread

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There's still a bit of time remaining in this debate but the two previous threads are getting full. So feel free to use this as a thread on the Democratic debate on CNN and CNN.com.

Update [2008-1-31 21:46:50 by Todd Beeton]:A note on the spin room downstairs, the people poised to spin on behalf of Clinton include Rep. Maxine Waters and the Speaker of the California House Fabian Nunez; for Obama: Rep. George Miller and LA Federation of Labor head Maria Elena Durazo.

Update [2008-1-31 21:52:15 by Todd Beeton]:A sort of unheralded aspect of Obama's campaign is his desire to restore people's faith in government and show the promise of government again.

OK, down to the spin room.

Update [2008-1-31 21:55:32 by Jonathan Singer]: Who do you think won tonight? Or, more importantly, who did what they needed to tonight? Both? Below the fold, pick a winner (choices include both or neither...).

Poll below...


Poll
Who Won Tonight?
Hillary Clinton
Barack Obama
Both
Neither

Votes: 365
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Who's winning? (none / 0)

or is it a draw?

Will it have any impact on Super Tuesday?


by enthusiast on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:45:06 PM EST

from an obama supporter (none / 0)

This is unfair IMO.

They gave him a pretty softball question.


by highgrade on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's winning? (none / 0)

The corporate media won.  Especially since most progressives are going along with the media selection without much of a commentary.

The insiders are pleased tonight.  What wasn't discussed that should have been?


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

Rob Reiner, he didn't like that.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:45:31 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

Didn't like what?


by lonnette33 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

This was Clinton's debate, all the way. A dazzling performance, very careful and methodical in her responses. Supremely detailed and controlled. She has been the absolute winner--not even close. The best line EVER--"It took a Clinton to clean up after the FIRST Bush, and it just might take another Clinton to clean up after the SECOND Bush." THE DEMOCRATIC LINE OF THE YEAR AND THE CAMPAIGN. Say hello, America, to the first woman president. She's going to clean up next Tuesday!


by lambros on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:46:34 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yeah, I agree.  This was the best debate performance turned in on the Democratic side this entire cycle....


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dazzling (none / 0)

Yeah it was great. I am so proud of our country. Corny but true.


--donna darko. I don't read or respond to comments. There's too much hate and misogyny here.
by nonwhiteperson on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 12:39:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

We know you're an enthusiast Lambros but her command of detail did stand out a mile and she had the line that got the most response of evening. God those democrats hate Bush.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

"God those democrats hate Bush. "

and that's a 'good thing.'


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 12:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (2.00 / 5)

See a dream ticket... and Stevie Wonder stands up. Gota say if he see's it, everybody see's it.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:48:11 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

LOL


by lonnette33 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Whoever won the debate, this comment clearly wins the thread.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

I have to admit, I giggled at that.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dream Ticket (2.00 / 1)

Texas '02!


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:49:22 PM EST

Dream Ticket (none / 0)

Can't imagine that happening.  Great answer, Obama!


by LRD on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:49:33 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

The "arrogant" meme seems to be catching on lately, or people are just starting to see his arrogance more clearly now.


by enthusiast on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:50:11 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

Texas '02?? I don't get it.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:50:25 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

In '02, Texas Democrats nominated a black man for US Senate (Ron Kirk) and a Hispanic for governor (Tony Sanchez).


by Shawn on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please take the mic away from Wolf (none / 0)

he treats this like it's his saturday morning show. what a turd.


by highgrade on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:51:05 PM EST

"Hillary would be on anybody's... (none / 0)

short list."

Nice.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:52:10 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

That would be great.  Obama in audience asking Hillary a question during townhall.


by comebackkid on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:52:20 PM EST

Who Won? (none / 0)

I think Obama won but Hillary did have a couple good rounds - I don't think they swayed many votes either way.


by LRD on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:52:33 PM EST

Re: Who Won? (none / 0)

I'm an Obama supporter and I think Clinton wo, but just by a few points.

And they both came out looking very good.

so I think the advantage can possibly go to Obama, if he gets Edwards' endorsement in the next 2 days.


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Won? (none / 0)

I don't believe that Edwards should endorse anyone. That would be a mistake.

This Edwards supporter and old Democrat believes that after the nominee is selected Edwards should address the convention and call for unity in the larger task ahead, to take the first step to righting the ship of state by putting the Democratic candidate in the White House.

That's what John Edwards should do.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't believe that Edwards should endorse (none / 0)

I agree.

I'm a huge Edwards supporter BECAUSE both other candidates are seriously flawed. Now that John has suspended his candidacy, the question has boiled down to 'The Lesser Of Two Evils'.

Two corporate Democrats. One plays dirty, the other seems to be overly naive. One is right on UHC, the other was right on Iraq.

Also, I am seriously worried about the General Election now, because both McCain and Romney could very well win this against either of the two Democrats. (Let's remember '76, when a very weak Gerald Ford almost beat Carter, and this after the greatest political scandal of American history. America is a progressive country, but with a conservative electorate.)


"The way to win a Presidential race against the Republicans is to develop the class warfare issue..." Lee Atwater, Bush `88 campaign manager.
by aufklaerer on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Won? (none / 0)

The only area where I saw him stronger than her during whole evening was over vote issue. Now since this is big deal to his supporters he consolidated his support. The rest of us. Maybe.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I think that Hillary fans will say that Hillary won and Obama's that Obama.

On the other hand, Hillary definitely won.


by comebackkid on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:53:48 PM EST

Re: Final Debate Thread (none / 0)

HOW FRIGGIN' TRUE!


by Scan on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (none / 0)

Obama jumped up so quick I think he knocked his chair over in his hurry to get in place to pull out Clinton's chair.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:54:03 PM EST

Re: Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (none / 0)

I call it stupid.  I recent the fact that he thinks she needs a hand up.

What a stupid move.  


by Shazone on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (2.00 / 1)

It was a very nice and substantive debate and I really hate to follow it up by analyzing Snubgate v4.0.  Who cares about the chair.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:04:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (none / 0)

But this reminded me of the Chimp massaging Merkel's back at that summit.

Not appropriate when you're talking about a women who could potentially be the president of (maybe) the most powerful country in the world.


by Shazone on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (none / 0)

Maybe he felt like he needed to make up for the comment that he was "thankful" Michelle wasn't the candidate in the race.  I don't understand that comment, but it had an air of sexism to it.


Do or do not. There is no try.
by DemJedi on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maureen Dowd will call it chivalry (none / 0)

I wouldn't allow Maureen Dowd to kiss my ass.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Hillary so won the debate...BIG TIME!!!


by Hillary2008 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:54:34 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama wiped the floor on Iraq. No spin zone, great win for Obama. The momentum will be on a roll


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:54:51 PM EST

No spin zone? (none / 0)

This is a Democratic board. You're being ironic, right?


by souvarine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

He didn't wipe the floor but it was the one area of the whole debate where he did better. Otherwise she was in driving seat.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

A draw until the war issue.  Obama gets the sound bite "Right on day one."

That wins it for him.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:55:39 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I will agree. The media loves Obama and will run that line over and over again.

However, substantively, I think Clinton won.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:57:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

She won the domestic issues, though he stood his ground credibly.  Foreign policy, however, shows a deeper flaw in her inevitable position.  Isn't it funny the campaign started about her AUMF vote, then we heard nothing for a long, long time and now the debate, and arguably the major campaign narrative going into Super Tuesday ends with it again.  The fact that the second half of the debate ended on that question is good luck for Obama.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Isn't that Kucinich's line?


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know (none / 0)

Maybe it was.  It's Obama's now.

Maybe Kucinich can sue for royalties.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

With exception of some shit questions from Wolf, this was my favorite debate so far. Both did really well and handled their differences with class.

Each won a round or two, but it was too close to call a winner. Because I like Obama, I think he did a tad better, but I expect Clinton partisans differ.


by DPW on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:56:09 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama might have won Iraq but Hillary defiantly won the whole debate  


by Hillary2008 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:56:10 PM EST

This was (none / 0)

the best debate.

Democrats won.


by Coldblue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:56:49 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

No way, Drummond.

This was Clinton's debate, all the way. A dazzling performance, very careful and methodical in her responses. Supremely detailed and controlled. She has been the absolute winner--not even close. The best line EVER--"It took a Clinton to clean up after the FIRST Bush, and it just might take another Clinton to clean up after the SECOND Bush." THE DEMOCRATIC LINE OF THE YEAR AND THE CAMPAIGN. Say hello, America, to the first woman president. She's going to clean up next Tuesday!


by lambros on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:57:34 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well, the pundits on my idiot box are agreeing with me - for what it's worth.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

What a surprise Matthews agrees with you. Must make you feel good.    


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'm on CNN.  All of them agree with me except Bill Bennett.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they call it an idiot box for a reason (2.00 / 1)


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

And say goodbye to the Democratic Congress.  


by Toddwell on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nonsense (none / 0)

she will be great for down-ticket races


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

Do you think she will do anything to help Nancy Boyda in Kansas or Baron Hill in Indiana or help us pick up seats left open by Republicans in Wyoming and Florida's Space Coast?  


by Toddwell on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

I bet the Dems will do just fine picking up Senate, Congressional, and state legislature seats if Hillary is at the top of the ticket.  You forget that John McCain is likely to be at the top of the GOP ticket and that between some of his vulnerabilities and some Republican extreme dissatisfaction with him, he'll not exactly be commanding a united Republican party.


by InigoMontoya on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

In the House, 28 incumbent Republicans are retiring compared to only 5 Democrats.

In the Senate, Republicans have to defend 22 of the 34 seats in this election.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Look at the numbers.  Not gonna happen.  We'll retain control of Congress.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:20:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I actually think that good applause line has an inherent dynastic weakness which is not a great take-way.  I'm surprised she is still using it.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

dynasties are not elected.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

At least the Obama supporters admit that HRC was winning before the debate. Given all this momentum talk, they are saying just that.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:58:45 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Did Obama try and help Hillary out of her chair at the end?  Give me a break.  

What a twit!  Thank god she sat still until he moved away.

I mean - STUPID.  She's not fragile and she's not ancient, Barack.


by Shazone on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:59:35 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

MSNBC couldn't wait 5 minutes to try to spin this as an Obama win. Pathetic.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:00:58 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Clinton overall, Obama on Iraq.  I think she had more substance, he had more one-liners.  It's been a long road, but I'm glad it was civil.  I also wish we got clear answers on Obama-Clinton or Clinton-Obama.


by ejintx on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:01:03 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I thought they were both very impressive.  If I have to pick a winner I think Hillary was more solid throughout.

I really don't know what to make of the people who think Obama was a big winner because of the AUMF stuff.  He certainly got the better of that exchange, but do you people not realize that everyone who sees that vote as a key distinction is already voting for Obama?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:01:04 PM EST

perhaps not (none / 0)

a sizable chunk of Edwards' supporters.


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: perhaps not (none / 0)

Edwards voted the way she did. He just said he was sorry.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: perhaps not (none / 0)

Right. Edwards came to see his vote as a huge mistake. Many of his supporters no doubt agree. They are probably contemplating pulling the lever for Obama right now.


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: perhaps not (none / 0)

Certainly. The vote was a huge mistake.

Either she doesn't realize it was a huge mistake, in which case, her judgment is bad; or she realizes it was a huge mistake, but simply refuses to be candid about that fact.

My personal suspicion is that she didn't want to vote for the authorization to invade Iraq at the time but figured it would be politically damaging to vote against war.


by mhojo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: perhaps not (none / 0)

I'm an Edwards supporter. Our primary is past, but if it were ahead I would NOT be pulling the lever for Obama.

There was a poll on this subject.

40% for Clinton

25% for Obama

35% undecided

In any primary my vote always goes to the most liberal of the VIABLE candidates.

Of the two remaining, Clinton comes closest to satisfying that criteria.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:35:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

There are a lot of people who don't pay attention to the debate until right about now.  The line "Right on the first day" will be the sound bite - mark my words.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Steve, so true. It's simply not the huge issue everyone thinks it is because basically a hell of a lot of people feel a little guilty themselves for being conned.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Except for those who weren't, a fragile minority, I  suppose.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I don't think Obama got points just for pointing out that he voted against the war. Rather, he did a great job of making a larger case for his candidacy on the basis of the judgment he exercised with respect to iraq. Moreover, he just sounded more confident and forceful while he was discussing foreign policy. While discussing health care, his answers were less confident (although, still fine).


by DPW on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:11:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Your slip is showing.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:15:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Did he really try and help her up out of her chair at the end?  What a jerk.

She's quite capable of standing without an assist - she only 60 and she strong enough to run for POTUS.

He looked really dump IMHO


by Shazone on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:01:50 PM EST

Halperin gives them both "A minus"... (none / 0)

...In other word, it's a tie.

Go to bed and get some sleep.


by andrewalker08 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:02:50 PM EST

Clinton won (none / 0)

Even if she was wrong on the Iraq issue, she still came across as more forceful in believing that what she has done and is doing is right.  And that's what being a President is all about.  If we needed someone to be right all the time (as Barack seemed to indicate), we wouldn't have a President because no one would be qualified!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:03:22 PM EST

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

"more forceful in believing that what she has done and is doing is right."

that exactly describes George W. Bush.


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

And Bush won twice.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

What's your point?  You're praising that quality in Bush?


by rfahey22 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

Um, yeah: not being able to admit you were wrong is the last thing we need in November.


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

I was with you until you came with the "convictions, right or wrong" statement.

Reminded me of Reagan/Bush II.

I'll pass.


A PROUD Hopium user!
by xodus1914 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

Gore defeated Bush in all three of the debates, but one liners make the winners.  Obama has learned this lesson well, and speaking as the man who predicted the McCain rise in the face of much ridicule, Obama won the debate, the primary, and the Presidency with "Right on day one."  Book it.


by Todd Bennett on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

Book It was a program to get free pizza in grade school.  Clinton's line about cleaning up after a second Bush is what the rank-and-file Dems will remember, not some highfalutin answer about being right all the time.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

Bet me.  Put your money where your mouth is.  Clinton blew his rep in S.C. and rank and file Dems are flocking towards Obama in droves.  Ted Kennedy means more than you know, he won him this primary, and the Presidency.


by Todd Bennett on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

The last political bet I made, I lost a $100.00 to my conservative friend b/c I said Kerry would win....

Listen, SC was a vacuum, but even more importantly, rank-and-file Dems understand what Clinton was doing for his wife.  I think the vision of the future that Clinton provided is tied to something tangible and substantial: our good times in the '90s.  The rank-and-file remember this; I don't see the droves you're talking about moving over to Obama because the most important point he made was being right all the time.  People like to see fallacy.  And Clinton demonstrated all the important attributes of a good President tonight.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

$100.00 says Obama put her away tonight.  Yes or no?


by Todd Bennett on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

No.  To both.

But thanks for playing our game!  We have some nice parting gifts for you.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ppppfffffffffffffttttttttttttt!!!!! n/t (none / 0)


by Mike Pridmore on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

But, Clinton's saying means nothing.  It's just a nice turn of phrase.  Whether or not you agree with it, words to the effect that "I was right then and I am right now" has real meaning.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

I told you so!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

I agree.  Clinton's laugh line was cute, but stupid.  We don't "need a Clinton to clean up"--we need a good Democratic president, period.  There is no philosophical resonance to it--it's just a joke, nothing more.

Obama's sound bite, however, has legs.  It's going to be the punch line of every speech of his until Clinton's out of the race, or he is.  He has no better strategy available than to take the largest, clearest distinction between Hillary and himself, and drive it into the ground.  "I can beat McCain because I was against the war, and she wasn't.  Are you going to vote for someone who authorized the war, or for someone who opposed it from the get-go."'

This vote, and the Iran vote, turn her experience into potential liabilities.  Obama knows that and will exploit it to the max.  Like Rove said, attack your opponent's strength so you can neutralize it.  I don't know if he will win or not, but it's certainly the best strategy I can think of.  


by paul minot on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:35:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton won (none / 0)

The line about a Clinton cleaning up after a Bush just reminds me that I think dynasties are a bad idea in the U.S. Certainly, if I had my preference, I'd go for 2 Clintons and only 1 Bush, but more than a quarter century of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton seems like a bit much.


by mhojo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nope (none / 0)

That was Kucinich's line and it didn't do a thing for him.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton on top most of the time (none / 0)

Her superior command of detail was evident throughout and she got best applause line with audience there. She was weaker in section on vote basically because she doesn't want to say anything that might harm her in a general so he has more sea room basically. His line was good. However I really think this is issue big in mind of a minority because majority knows they were all voting the same way as her. Most people want to know what were going to do not why we did what we did. Does anyone win these debates. At the end of it people are left with a vague impression and I don't think she's going to be unhappy with the impression she left which was this is one hell of a formidable woman.      


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:04:43 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I nodded off after about 20 minutes. I think whoever wins the nomination needs to spend some time learning from Edwards about how to inject some passion into their answers.

My general view is that Clinton seemed confident and was successful in her attempt to look like she was in control. She kept her voice down for the most part and provided nothing to help Obama convince people that she'll be a polarizing candidate in the fall. She helped herself because the non-story of the debate will perhaps calm the press from starting to perceive momentum for Obama, as earlier news today suggested it would.

Obama got the byte with being "right on day one".

But by and large this was so soporific and the target audience of Feb 5 voters is so vast that I doubt it will have any lasting impact.


by desmoulins on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:04:55 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

That last sentence is probably right.  Both have great ground games going, and I think they were just trying to avoid messing it up.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed, It Was A Sleeper (none / 0)

They both played it as safe as possible...which is somewhat understandable since, after all, 22 states are voting on Tuesday. If you think you are essentially close to equal, there is a huge disincentive to take ANY chances.  You want to fully control your message. The last thing you want to do is give the MSM something to seize upon in the debate, and twist against you.  

As a general matter, however, safe tended to favor the establishment candidate, Hillary Clinton.

Nevertheless, the Obama campaign actually looks like it might have a financial advantage over Hillary's campaign.  They are going to have huge TV ad purchases in all 22 states.  I suppose they are hoping to combine their financial advantage with their surrogate tours, and rock star appearances to finesse out some wins.  

Hmmmm...I am not sure it will be enough.  Much will depend upon the MSM coverage.


by Demo37 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 12:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed, It Was A Sleeper (none / 0)

This sounds right to me. Hey, Demo37, when you get around to it, do post that diary you promised on the Edwards campaign here in NV.


by desmoulins on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, That Diary Will Come... (none / 0)

Yes, I will write that diary as promised...though it threatens to be of opus length.  

(I must learn to curb my enthusiasm for discussing what appear to be well-executed political strategies.)


by Demo37 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I don't remember that part...


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:05:04 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama had the best line of the night, "You have to be right on day one."

I think he did himself well with Hispanics on the immigration issue and definitely won the Iraq discussion.


by Progressive America on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:06:06 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

That will be the sound bite.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I thought they both did well. I wouldn't use the word "dazzling" to describe either of their performances.
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --Stephen Stills "For What It's Worth"
by vj on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:06:23 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

No, I wouldn't either.  They were both very cautious, trying not to offend the audience, and trying not to piss each other off for a repeat of last Monday.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama won by not losing. He clearly won on Iraq and held his own on healthcare. I think he did a better job appealing to the Hispanic vote.

Because Clinton didn't knock him out, it won't erase his momentum. It'll be a very close race still.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:07:20 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Completely agree.


by Progressive America on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Honestly, even on substance he kicked her ass up and down the stage.  He blew her to pieces in ways only a professional could do and recognize.  This was not even close Obama destroyed her.


by Todd Bennett on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I don't agree. I think Clinton did very well tonight. She didn't have answers for a few tough questions (like the Driver's Licenses and almost anything on Iraq), but she sure sounds like she knows her stuff. And the policy differences between the candidates are so minute that it's hard to attack either one on the "substance".


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Well, he had better hope only the professionals show up to vote next Tuesday, then.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Reminds me of the quote about Adlai Stevenson being sure to get the vote of every thinking man in the U.S. to which Stevenson replied, "Thank you, but I need a majority to win."


by mhojo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

The problem is that 50% of Americans are dumber than average.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Todd are you serious. She was in control of this debate most of the time. Her only shaky patch was over "the vote" You appear to be succumbing to the worst exaggerations I've seen here not to mention the condescension to the rest of us.

 "in ways only a professional could do and recognize"

I've participated in lots of debates and he never came close to blowing her to piecees.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

The professional comment apllies to criticisms that he is amatuerish.  Second, debates are not about being polished, or having pat answers.  They are about lines that are remembered.  "Right on day one".  Right all the way to the White House.


by Todd Bennett on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

And yet that line didn't get the most audience response. Hers about Bush clean up did. And I've never ssid he was amateurish although some go over the top by saying it, we expect better of you. Actually I think these debates are over rated. Kerry destroyed Bush in that first debate in perhaps the most complete way I've ever seen on tv. Whose president. Most of them leave an impression. What impression did she leave and what did he leave.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Clinton was speaking to the non-professionals who will be voting in five days. She gave them the substance they are looking for.


by souvarine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

rolling my eyes at this

Do you really believe this?  Are you sure you were watching the same debate?


by Mike Pridmore on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

What sort of "professional" are you, exactly?  Are you professional at writing run-on sentences?  If you are a professional in politics, I've never heard of you - and I'd certainly never hire you if you think Obama destroyed her tonight. Take off the blinders.


Do or do not. There is no try.
by DemJedi on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Nah.  Obama looked like he was trying to bluff his way through more than a little of the debate.


by beerwulf on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

If the polls are right and Obama's leading among whites and blacks in California, this will help him take the lead if he closes the Hispanic gap.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

AHH IF


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I don't think it is clear which response will appeal most to Hispanic citizens. Obama may have given the answers activists want to hear, but Hispanic voters don't have the same reactions to the issues.


by souvarine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MSNBC, yo (none / 0)

Olbermann is much easier on the ears.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:09:57 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

In saying that he wanted to choose good people with expertise and a commitment above all to the American people, he used the construction, "From the Vice President to the lowest civil servant..."

It was not a great way to put it, but all he meant was "throughout my administration."


by along on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:10:08 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Sounds like he was looking for a reason to get mad if that turn of phrase pissed him off.


by mhojo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

yes -- that is the one part of the debate where the Obama fans in the debate party were like "OUCH BAD WORDING"


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

One other thing:

This was an incredible debate. A two hour long policy discussion? That was awesome! I loved the unrestrictive nature and that each candidate had 2-3 minutes to respond to each question.

Al Gore would have loved this debate.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:11:09 PM EST

I cant believe they asked BRANDY (none / 0)

for her reaction


by highgrade on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:11:29 PM EST

Keith Olbermann (none / 0)

is a disappointment.


by Coldblue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:12:38 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I call it a draw!


by lonnette33 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:12:52 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

A lot of good comments by Obama that are going to be played.

On McCain: "The wheels are coming off the straight-talk express."

On Romney: "He hasn't gotten a very good return on his investment."

On the War: "You have to be right on day one."

Msnbc has been saying it's his best performance so far and I would agree. That Iraq discussion was very long and Hillary basically just ran in circles on it.


by Progressive America on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:13:53 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

He did much much better with the one-liners. Those are what most people will hear.


by souvarine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Bill Bennett says Clinton won.  He was disappointed that he didn't go at her.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:14:26 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

And Bill is not exactly a fan. I think these win lose verdicts are ridiculous. Kerry completely destroyed Bush in that first debate. Whose president. At the end you are left with an impression. I don't thinks she'll be unhappy.    


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

"And Bill is not exactly a fan." Truer words were never spoken.


by hctb on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Friend or no, we'd probably check the line in Vegas if Mr. Bennett is offering an opinion.


by mhojo on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 0)

Typical stuff from Clinton. Very solid on the issues, engaging in a few spots. Dominated early and held on for a slight win to clear win.

Probably Obama's best debate. Now he has had many good debates so I don't know what that says but he was funny and knowledgeable in many cases tonight. After coming up short in his attacks early, he stayed away from that and benefitted in the last half.

We have two great candidates and will win in November.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:14:39 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

We have two great candidates and will win in November.

Hear hear! Agree wholeheartedly.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Let's hope so.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama did fantastic! He's on his way...


by mecarr on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:15:57 PM EST

Who won tonight? (none / 0)

The Democratic party won tonight!!!
Both candidates looks great tonight, both candidates looked very Presidential, and I believe we did look at the next President tonight, and possible the next Vice President as well.
Obama was strong with every answer he gave, and obviously resisted the temptation to go negative.
Hillary also looked strong in every answer she gave, and put to rest a lot of the concerns I had for her
Both candidates made it clear that they could spank McCain in a debate, and send him crying on general Election night, and that is all I care about.
I am still leaning slightly towards Obama, because he answered the Iraq War questions more crisply than Clinton did (the advantage of being against the war from the beginning), but Clinton proved her credentials and that she can stand strong against any Republican, as long as her husband can keep his mouth shut.
As long as Clinton has Obama as a running mate she will carry most states in the general election, and Obama will carry most states no matter who he runs with.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:16:52 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

It seems to me that Obama supporters think Obama won, and Clinton supporters think Clinton won. Maybe the undecideds know.
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --Stephen Stills "For What It's Worth"
by vj on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:17:32 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

That's a scary thought.  The election will be decided by people who drive waitresses crazy with endless questions about the menu.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

As an Edwards supporter, I favor Clinton on health care and I've been critical of Obama in the past specifically for his use of Republican talking points at times.

Tonight I actually saw Clinton using Republican points like when she said (paraphrasing) "We need to have a strong Democrat to go against Republicans on national security." I think she kind of embraced that meme, which just isn't true and we shouldn't ackowledge it.

I only slightly favor Obama over Hillary, mostly because of her advisors like Penn and McAuliffe and also some of stuff that was put through in the 90s like NAFTA.


by Progressive America on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

You don't think national security is going to be one of the top three issues in November. What planet do yo live on baby.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

National Security (Iraq, at least) will be the number one or number two issue. And on that issue I think Obama is stronger. He's stronger on Iraq and stronger on Afghanistan/Bin Laden, at least.

We don't have to act like Republicans to win the National Security debate. We shouldn't run from the question of protecting the country. We have to stick to our beliefs like glue, like Obama does.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I agree it will be important and Obama can at least bring forth the argument that he's always opposed the war. That's strength on national security. Hillary meanwhile has muddled her view and tonight it actually sounded like she was defending her Iraq vote. Remember where that got us in 2004.


by Progressive America on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

FYI, it's recently come out that Hillary opposed NAFTA and encouraged Pres. Clinton not to enact it.


by mlr701 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Isn't that convenient?


by paul minot on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:42:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

It's my understanding that she personally opposed NAFTA.

Remember Franklin and Eleanor didn't always agree.

Hooking Hillary Clinton with all of Bill Clinton's decisions doesn't cut it and also fails to account for the fact that we have some old problems and very many new problems. She's already recognized that some of the decisions of the recent past need to be revisited.

It's a recognition that a position can and should be changed in the light of new information.

I've heard some people say that Clinton would take us back to the 90s. I would like to know how those people make that determination. Much has happened in the invening years and many of the CW assumptions of the period, embraced in some manner by both parties, have been weakened or discarded based on evidence.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 12:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

BTW, Fox is covering the Hollway disappearence. They are going to lose a lot of money in the next 8 years.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:18:10 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

From Andrew Sullivan,
It was, I think, his best debate in the campaign so far. The one-on-one format elevated him instantly and he commanded the stage and the occasion. Hillary Clinton did not do poorly. All her strengths were on show: the policy mastery, the gaffe-free talking points, the Clinton record in the 1990s. But that made his mastery all the more impressive. The good natured sparring helped him. He neutralized her on healthcare and simply cleaned up on the war in Iraq. But most crucial: he seemed like a president. He was already battling McCain. She was still pivoting off Bush. In his body language, he carefully upstaged her, without looking as if he were trying. By the end of the debate, he was pulling her chair back for her.

I'd say that he won the primary election tonight. She is still a formidable candidate and her massive institutional advantage may eventually give her the nomination. But she hasn't won this primary argument or this primary battle. If she becomes the nominee, it will be because she survived the primaries. He won them.

You know my bias. It's on my sleeve. But I've criticized Obama's performances in the past and couldn't find a flaw tonight. A good closer, as I've been told for over a year now. You can say that again.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Apparently they have an 11-month calendar over there that's missing the month of February," Obama strategist David Axelrod
by Jr1886 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:19:30 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Sullivan. Are you serious. This guy publishes daily hate diatribes against Clinton. Is he the best you can do.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Andrew Sullivan saying Hillary "did not do poorly" is like any rational, sane observer saying she is god incarnate.  I'll take that as a win for Hillary.

One of the best things about her winning will be Andrew having to eat crow.


Do or do not. There is no try.
by DemJedi on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Noted Democratic bellwether Andrew Sullivan?


by souvarine on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Sullivan? Hyperbole much. There were no knock out punches and the voters will decide.


by ND1979 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:21:24 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Tempest in a teapot.  As noted, Obama said something to the effect of "from the highest official to the lowest civil servant, I want government officials to know that they serve the American people."  I don't see any reason for offense unless the listener is already predisposed to take umbrage from Obama.  It's ridiculous to think that that was some sort of broadside on federal employees.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:25:06 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

that isnt true, i went to a debate party that was pretty split with probably a few more HRC supporters than Obama, and everyone agreed that was a shitty moment


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

The undecided voters with the little dials on CNN seemed to go along with the consensus here.  Slight win for Clinton, by a 60-40 margin I think, but advantage to Obama on Iraq.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:25:11 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Exactly my take, I'm a Clintonista and this was her weakest patch no doubt about it, but otherwise she was really on top.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

CNN's Bill Schneider has another take... (none / 0)

The audience response was the same as that of Democrats across the country: they're happy with their choice this year, but they don't want to have to make it.

I thought overall, his position tonight was still that of the challenger, and she was effectively the incumbent. Barack Obama needed to peel votes away from Clinton. He made some progress on the Iraq issue. But how many Democrats are still more concerned about Iraq than about anything else?

To the extent that the debate was a draw, it helps Clinton.

Why? Because holding his own wasn't enough. Obama's task tonight was to make the case that there were huge differences between them. Just holding his own and looking presidential was not enough -- he had to convince Democrats who like her that there's a reason she shouldn't be the party's nominee.

He clearly had command on the issue of Iraq. Six months ago that would have been enough. Now? I'm not so sure. It took a while for the issue to take center stage tonight, and that's no accident: Other concerns have come to the forefront.

In all, it was an unhelpful debate. They minimized their differences. Tonight's showdown will rally Democrats, no question - but won't help them make a decision. The biggest applause line of the evening came for the idea of the two of them together.

The debate doesn't kill momentum for either one. But does it help build any? His strong showing could very well help Obama. But how much -- enough to overtake Clinton? I just didn't see that.

No one agrees on who won and who lost.  Let's call it a draw and call it a night.


by andrewalker08 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:26:46 PM EST

Re: CNN's Bill Schneider has another take... (none / 0)

I actually rate Schneider he doesn't succumb to the usual exaggerations and slanted reporting.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CNN's Bill Schneider has another take... (none / 0)

That's interesting. Most of us agree that it was a draw with Obama being stronger on Iraq.

But we have different ideas of what that means. Schneider doesn't seem to put much credit in Obama's recent bump in the polls, both national and state. Maybe he hasn't seen the latest polls that show country-wide momentum for Obama? He's acting like Clinton is still leading by 30 points nationally.


by Kal on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CNN's Bill Schneider has another take... (none / 0)

I think most of us and the little panel CNN had think she did better most of the time but he scored with Iraq.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

CNN just replayed the naivete question (none / 0)

She didn't handle that one well and Obama hit it home.  If that gets the airplay, Obama will benefit greatly.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:27:53 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I think that as long as the economy falls further and further into recession, it only benefits Clinton (just like in '92).


by devoted1 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:35:11 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

So she needs 500 off the Dow on Monday. It might happen believe me. I don't think most folks have any idea of how shaky it is right now,  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:38:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

One of the most impressive things that Clinton said (a few weeks ago, not in any debate) was that she would ditch the contractors and replace them with civil servants.  Thats HUGE.  That's really 'getting it'

I'm an Edwards supporter but I have to say her statement about contractors told me that she has a deep understanding of what makes good government.

Bush has done great damage to the departments and agencies of the executive branch.  These are agencies that effect people's day to day lives.

Her declaration tells me that she's acutely aware of the damage and means to fix it.

No one has ever bothered to mention that her experience reaches beyond 7 years in the Senate and her time hanging around the White House and the state house.  She was also an attorney on the joint committee that investigated Watergate during the Nixon years.  She's seen government from a lower level as well as the higher level.

She has an understanding of the importance of policy and a passion that is totally lacking in Obama. He was reluctant at the start to commit to any sort of policy agenda and even now at this stage is uncomfortable discussing policy matters.

No offense to Obama and his followers but there really is no comparison between the two.  Clinton is in a completely different league.

I just don't think that Obama's ready for prime time. He needs more time, more study, more experience.  He's young (he has a 15 year shelf life of presidential opportunity) and would benefit from at least one full term in the Senate and perhaps should consider running for Governor of Illinois at the earliest opportunity.


by cal1942 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:15:29 AM EST


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