Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us?

I've always been annoyed by the standard narrative about Hillary Clinton, because it seems to me that she basically gets grief for doing the exact same thing every other politician does.  We've all heard a million times how she's calculating, she's poll driven, and so forth - as if all the other politicians are just out there winging it, I suppose.  And I've never liked watching progressives reinforce that fundamentally unfair narrative.

I was reminded of this double standard today by an interesting quote from a senior Obama adviser:

"The Clintons have always put people in a box -- they look at everything through racial lines, gender lines, geographic lines; they tend to segment people," said Steve Hildebrand, a senior Obama adviser who spearheaded his Iowa effort. "She goes to Nevada and sits with Latinos in their living room to court their vote -- that's not the way Barack approaches people. If the Clintons paint him as the black candidate, no one's going to stop them from doing that. They are playing the same old-style games."

Now at first, I sensed a bit of jealousy behind this comment.  After all, since Latinos in Nevada supported Clinton over Obama by a margin of 3 to 1, perhaps he should think about sitting in a few living rooms.

But then the real problem with this comment was highlighted by some interesting photos flagged by Nico Pitney at the Huffington Post, from a so-called "economic opportunity" photo-op just 10 days ago:

Of course, every candidate does photo-ops like this one.  That's the whole point!

To be blunt, I doubt I will ever outgrow my annoyance at the Obama supporters who feel compelled to portray him as better than everyone else, but I hope they will outgrow their compulsion to do so.  And before you say "hey, I never claimed he was perfect," take a look back at that quote from the senior Obama adviser.  Either that guy is trying to sell us on the notion that Obama practices a different and better kind of politics, or he actually believes it.

I'm simply tired of the sanctimonious attitude that says it's fine to call Hillary Clinton a calculating bitch or to call John Edwards a phony ambulance chaser, but if you say anything negative about Barack Obama then you're evil for tearing down the bright young hope of the Democratic Party.  Please.  There are millions of people who find each of our candidates inspiring, and that's a good thing.  But there's only one set of supporters who routinely seem to insist that their candidate is a unique shining light unto the universe.

As Obama told that editorial board in Reno, "I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure."  Please, I beg of his supporters, take that cue.



Display:


Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

to Iowa Democrats seeking their support--more than Hillary made. Someone I know who was active in Hillary's campaign told me she thinks that's one reason why Obama got so many party people to endorse him. He just worked harder to get their support.

What she told me is consistent with this account:

http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary .do?diaryId=1779

After the Clinton rally last night in Iowa City, a Clinton precinct captain sighed in frustration and, insisting on anonymity, shared this story.  The precinct captain's friend, a school principal, had said he was trying to choose between Clinton and Obama.  He was on his way into the rally when his cell phone rang.  It was Obama.

Not a campaign staffer, a volunteer, or a robo-call.  It was Barack Obama himself.

The personal request proved to be sufficient, as the principal pledged his support directly to the candidate, turned on his heel, and walked out of the Clinton event.

On one level it really makes me angry that any voter would make a decision this way. I've never gotten a personal phone call from John Edwards, nor would I ever expect one. Nor would I drift toward another candidate who called me on my cell phone.

But if we're talking about playing the political game, I have to admit that Obama played it well in Iowa.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:39:59 PM EST

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (2.00 / 0)

Iowa is an exception. Iowa won't vote for a strong woman. Obama also comes from a neighbouring state, which gave him a huge advantage. The media is setting this up for their golden boy. Gephardt also won Iowa caucus due to his neighbouring state advantage, nobody really cared about him in the end.


by prisonbreak on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

He won Iowa fairly, by playing a better ground game.  He didn't do so well in NH and NV, and his ground game wasn't as good.  Maybe cause Iowa is smaller, maybe he had more volunteers in proportion to voters, but he did it well.  It's about message and getting out votes.  But I don't think it's fair to say she lost because she's a woman, she didn't have a better get out the votes there.  On the other hand i also think it's unfair for him to cry cheating when she gets out her voters. This will count in November, and this is one more place experience shows itself.  I think it's clear he sees himself as different and that he is different, in that his campaign is about courting new voters, turning them into Democrats rather than representing the party faithful. We'll see which campaign works best by who wins the most votes and the most Democratic delegates.  


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

The Dem establishment is using Obama to build the Dem base.
He won't win the nomination but in Nov. there will be many new Dem registered voters.
Mission Accomplished!

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 04:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, Gephardt won in 1988 (none / 0)

because unions were more powerful and had a larger membership then.

Paul Simon, who finished a close second in 1988, was also from a neighboring state.

Being from a neighboring state didn't help Gephardt in 2004.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

Ah, playing the "gender card" - Iowa's white voters didn't support Clinton because they are sexist. Gheeez! You scream about black identity politics in your other postings, but then you think it is fine to blame Hillary's loss on sex.

Get over it. Obama won among women in Iowa. Hillary didn't lose there because she's a woman, Obama and Edwards ran better campaigns there than she did,


by lifelongdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (2.00 / 2)

Oh so what.  Iowa was a must-win for Obama.  This is still just politics.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (2.00 / 2)

Iowa provides us a very interesting insight into the candidates because it seems like they can almost literally knock on every door.  But I suspect one reason Iowa is traditionally bad at predicting the nominee is that the rest of the country doesn't get to see the candidates in that same way.

Anyway, if I bump into John, I'll tell him he ought to give you a call.  You deserve one for all your hard work!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, he should be calling people (none / 0)

in the February 5 states.

I've gotten my family's picture taken with Edwards--that's good enough for me!


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (2.00 / 3)

Although I get what you are saying.  he ground game wasn't good enough, and she didn't understand the caucus system as well as she should have.  But, you know, she took responsibility for her poor showing, particularly among the youth, and she's corrected that.  Obama has complained about every loss since Iowa, and has not taken any credit for them.  I think Hillary shows a level of maturity that is wanting.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

True - a lot of whining from Obama - and playing the "victim" card.
Obama allowed Oprah to initiate the race card by telling blacks they should vote for THE ONE - THE black ONE.
THE ONE with soaring rhetoric who has now copied Edwards.
THE ONE who will "bring us all together" - but can't bring Senate Dems together.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 04:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama made a lot of personal phone calls (none / 0)

Nothing has been as low in this campaign as Bill and Hillary's attempt to peg Obama as the "Black candidate," and this coming from the allegedly "first Black president." Nothing could be further from the truth, considering the racism entailed in this effort by Jack and Jill.

The short of it: Hillary and Bill cannot beat McCain. How can a Neocon criticize a Neocon?


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"You've Been Bamboozled!" (none / 0)

   "It is unfortunate that people have tried to distort what Mrs. Clinton had to say about Dr. King."

   "I think there has been a deliberate and systematic attempt by some people in the Obama campaign to really fan the flames about race and to really distort what Senator Clinton said.  I understood and I think most right thinking people understood what she said.

   "President and Senator Clinton have a record, a history, a very long history of bringing people together. No right thinking American would ever think that Senator or President Clinton would ever do anything that would use the race card"

   "I must tell you...I'm trying to set the record straight...the Obama camp is doing something else, theyr'e sending out memos to the media trying to suggest that the Clintons are playing the race card."

   -Rep. John Lewis on News Hour 1/14


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 1)

Wow.  Just wow.  You really told it like it is.  

Unfortunately, I've taken to calling the Obama's fans his "followers" rather than his "supporters" -- because they act like followers, blind to his problems, blind to political realities, blind to the qualities and reasoning of those who support (gasp) Edwards or Clinton.

And, throughout the Internet, the Obama followers' comments are mostly vicious attacks.  The immaturity is disturbing.  It's impossible to have a rational discussion at the big orange place -- even Peter Daou, the Clinton campaign's Internet director, gets attacked viciously.  Shocking given that Peter was one of the finest essayists on Bush/Cheney for Salon magazine and built up an extraordinary blog-linking service for Salon. But Peter's rich history is utterly forgotten just because he's working for Sen. Clinton and his comments -- which are all of them polite and rational -- get troll-rated out of existence.  It's sickening.


by susanhu on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:40:24 PM EST

I came late to that Peter Daou diary (2.00 / 3)

and couldn't believe how many Obama supporters troll-rated him. It was especially amazing, since Kos removed the troll-rating ability from some of the most obnoxious Obama supporters.

Maybe if Obama didn't keep completing the iron triangle, Peter Daou would like him better.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just Peter Daou (2.00 / 3)

It's not just Peter Daou.

It's Paul Krugman, progressive award winning economist and New York Times Columnist... along with Wes Clark, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Dianne Feinstein, Richard Holbrooke, John Lewis...

Viritually ANY progressive who supports Clinton is cursed. This behavior is just juvenile.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:01:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Andrew Young, Joe Wilson, Bob Kerrey, Cuomo (2.00 / 0)


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 1)

So I'm an ipso facto 'follower' because I support Obama and you are a 'supporter' because you are backing Hillary?  Doesn't that strike you as a bit didactic?  And demeaning?  Does that mean that I am not acting as a Democrat as well, in this instance, but as a cultist?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 4)

the difference I see is that Hillary's supporters also like him and see her as first choice not only one who can save the nation.  I see all the candidates as fine and if I don't get my first choice, oh, well, I'll vote for whoever wins. Often Obama's supporters claim they'll switch parties if he loses to Hillary.  That makes is seem odd. So, if she wiins, will you vote for her?  


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

"Often Obama supporters..."

How about "some Obama supporters" or "some Obama supporters at MYDD," the reality is that most of these people are going to vote democrat and are simply voicing their displeasure in a juvenile manner. That being said, they probably wouldn't be doing this if they weren't treated with so much disdain by Clinton's supporters.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

I would unhesitatingly reply 'of course' but for one thing which has disturbed my conscience throughout the most of this campaign.  For me the Iraq war remains the most compelling issue in US politics, notwithstanding it has almost disappeared from the radar.  Early in the piece Hillary made the following statement:


Clinton, D-N.Y., again refused to apologize for her 2002 vote on a congressional resolution to authorize force in Iraq.  However, she added an important new caveat in her remarks today:  "I have to say, if the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from.  But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war."

Kate Snow and Eloise Harper - Clinton: Don't Like My Iraq Vote? 'There Are Others to Choose From' ABC 27 Feb 07

It's pretty obvious that she was speaking in the context of the primary campaign, and I accept that.  However I remain conflicted on this point, frankly.  It isn't about Obama, really, and I may never have the opportunity to vote with a Democrat who didn't vote to authorise the war, as I didn't in 2004, so it would undoubtedly be the lesser of evils to cast my vote with Democrats as I have always done in the past.  But I still find it incredible that Democrats would nominate, at this stage, a presidential candidate with such a liability.

But it seems we may be left with little choice and may very well go into this election, yet again, with candidates from both parties who were equally culpable, meaning that, indeed, there are not 'others to choose from.'  In that case what alternative would I have?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

As I was pointing out to one of your colleagues earlier, if this contrast isn't enough to win your candidate the Democratic primary, it certainly wouldn't have been a key factor in deciding the general election.  The vast majority of the voters who think it's a huge asset to have been against the war from the start are going to be in the Democratic Party.  Either they care a lot, in which case Obama will win, or they're pretty much over that issue by now, in which case it wouldn't have helped in the general.

I also find it interesting that you guys understand the concept of the "politics of contrast" BTD and I keep talking about... but only on this issue.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:46:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well, curiously, this issue remains the most compelling one for me personally, and I do vote my conscience insofar as I can determine it.  The second most important issue to me is electoral and procedural reform, another significant contrast one one which has also virtually disappeared from the campaign.

We have clearly moved into the realm of 'identity' politics, as was perhaps inevitable once the minutiae of policy was thrashed out prior to Iowa, and this has permeated the debate here recently as much as it has the public campaign.  We will likely continue in this vein to the nomination.

I agree with BTD on several points, including the one you mentioned as well as the benefits of a candidacy which is largely celebrated in the media, as shallow a distinction as that sometimes proves to be.  But we are in the home stretch now and the framing of the candidacies by their opponents and the establishment at large is the name of the game.  In this context Obama's campaign may very well prove unequal to the task now that racial identity has become a major factor.  I find it ironic that the Hillary supporters who had been so gleefully anticipating her 'kicking butts and taking names' now disingenuously denying this is exactly what is happening when her brand of hard-ball politics has  finally become the main event.  This is the 'fun part' all right and they may as well enjoy it as it is certainly playing out the way they had anticipated.  She is clearly demolishing him and doing so with an ease that makes it seem to have been inevitable.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

I think "another Obama supporter" is a more apt description than "colleagues", however in the debate last night Giulianni exhibited exactly how they Repubs will frame the whole War issue if she gets the nod - that Hillary was for it when the country was 60-40 for it and now is against it since the country is 60-40 against it.  It will be she swings with the polls and every time she presses that issue that's what will come back until she stops pressing it and God knows that's exactly what the Republicans will want, and it will go away.  And we lose what should be a natural advantage for the Dem Party.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well Obama has that exact same problem. You don't vote to continue to fund the war if you're against it and don't vote against removing troops if you're against it. Yeah, I know he's got some kind of nuanced answer to this but don't expect it to work.

Anyway, most Obama supporters are saying that McCain will beat Clinton. Perhaps the war isn't such a big issue unless it's Hillary votes?  After all McCain wants to stay in Iraq 100 years.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

This is the same narrative they have used against every Democratic candidate in my memory.  They will use it against Obama too.  I don't understand why you think he would be immune.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Come on.  Obama and Edwards tried this "she talks out of both sides of her mouth" thing when the drivers license for Immigrants gave them an excuse.  Most Democrats are convinced that Hillary is principled and tells it as it is.  The flip-flop label is going to be very hard to attach.  By that token Obama's decision to fund the war for years and then suddenly deciding to not fund (citing changed circumstances) would be characterized as a flip-flop.  It is a declaration of bankruptcy of thought when we are supposed to listen to those who want us to be afraid of what the GOP might or might not use against our candidates as a line of attack.   There is plenty of ammunition available to make a case with Obama, if that were the candidate of choice (which is more than likely not going to be the case.)  

On the other hand:  Giuliani?  Dead man walking?  Who in the hell cares?  He is going to say goodbye after Tuesday, end his candidacy (unless he wins FL, which is very unlikely at this point.)  Romney?  How many flip-flops can we hang on the guy?  A massive amount of material there.  On and on the list goes.  Let's not get carried away with the theme that we are supposed to be shrinking in fear of what the GOP might come up with to score points with.  


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well 'out of touch' or not I would be happy to make the case for the Iraq war being more than an ideological sticking point.  Your comment about 'mainstream issues' is understood but what underlies my view is a belief that all of these proposals are impacted by our involvement, and ongoing engagement, in Iraq.  Our energy deficit and resources, the US position in the global economy, the alignment of our 'allies,' in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, are all directly impacted by the war in Iraq and the broader 'global war on terror.'  We are currently prosecuting an increasingly difficult war in Afghanistan and sitting on a potential crisis in Pakistan as a consequence.

From where I sit these issues may potentially impact on our global alliances and eventually our domestic prosperity.  The US image in the world has taken a beating and while it would certainly be true to say we retain friends and admirers the more insular or arrogant we appear in our intentions the more we risk further eroding our prospects.  We are facing a major challenge in world energy markets with a resurgent Russia who is vying for influence with us in Europe and Asia.  In fact we have competitors for energy resources worldwide and have already squandered much good will and leverage with existing global allies and partners.

Run a campaign on Social Security, health care reform and the domestic economy?  Fine.  It doesn't take a genius to anticipate the threat to these initiatives of an increasingly indifferent, if not openly hostile, global community.  We ignore these issues at our peril.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

None of that has anything to do with 2002, unless you think it makes a big difference to the world community whether we run someone who was against the war from the start.  I very much doubt it matters.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well, I think that would help.  It begs the question of the candidates foreign policy in general.  Hillary's position on negotiation with leaders of hostile nations, her justification of her AUMF and Kyl/Lieberman votes, her reticence on tipping her hand as to her administrative policy as commander-in-chief and her attitude to executive power and privilege create an inscrutable smokescreen obscuring her intentions and seem, with the exception of the executive power issue, largely driven by domestic electoral considerations.

My thesis is that the apparent insularity and past narrative which have driven US foreign policy in the doestic marketplace in recent years require an abrupt volte face which will only come with intentional and coherent leadership.  Personally I think the time is past due for this and I had held out a sincere hope that Obama was capable of providing it.  I have my apprehensions about the framing of this particular debate in the general if Hillary gets the nomination and doesn't make such a mandate a clear outcome in the event of her victory.  The Clinton track record on foreign policy is not what you would call noteworthy, although anything is possible, certainly.

I am genuinely concerned at the ebb of US power and influence in the world as a consequence and fear it is a deficit it will require many years to ameliorate.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

I'll cut to the chase- no it won't matter.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well if we 'stay the course' we have now charted I am back to my original comment that our other 'progressive' policies will be negatively impacted.  It is frustrating to consider the prospects of the US in the face of the persistent perception that we are somehow isolated or insulated from the global consequences of our actions, if that is indeed what you are suggesting.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

It was a simple question. Will the fact he was against the war in 2002 matter to other country. The answer is NO.

The rest is add on by you. But, I'll play along.

I challenge you to substantively differentiate the plans put out by Obama and Clinton on Iraq. An easy question.

I challenge you to put out the differences in their foreign policy voting record where both of them where there to vote.

Also, should be easy

Finally, demonstrate to me that their other policies are substantively different.

Again, easy- that is if you are correct, and I and others like me are wrong.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

If you can't discern the differences between Obama's and Hillary's foreign policy approach, given that I have been writing diaries on precisely that subject for some months, I am certainly not going to attempt to illustrate them now.  Try this one for starters if you are genuinely interested.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

I asked you to do it since the exercise was about your ability to realize that there is none.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Well, I failed.  Sorry.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:33:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

It wasn't something I was overly concerned with, but as someone who claims to be about the issues you bring up- I think you might want to stop circling the wagons and figure out.  Basically other than donating a little money and chatting on blogs I am moving on passed American politics. i live in this country but I really am becoming disengaged from what happens politically because I find your analysis all to par for the course. You essentially are arguing gradations with very little real differences in foreign policy as if they are huge chasms of differences when substantively the argument isn't sustainable. You are better footing prior to 2005 when he entered the Senate. After that point , there's not a dimes worth of difference between Clinton and Obama. Just once I would love to meet a supporter of his who could admit to that because at least then I could say he or she is making a choice with eyes open.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 1)

"Often Obama's supporters claim they'll switch parties if he loses to Hillary."

You really kicked that straw-man's ass.


by the mollusk on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 1)

Uh, I've seen dozens of Obama supporters talk about voting for McCain or not voting if Clinton gets the nomination, in the last week alone.  I guess you missed all those posts.

Did you see when Obama himself argued that he would be getting all of Hillary's supporters in the general election, but she probably wouldn't be getting all of his?  Was he also kicking a strawman's ass?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

You know damn well he was talking about Independents and Republicans.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Oh please.  Are you going to deny the existence of all those comments from people who say they won't vote for Hillary in November?  Have you ever, even once, tried to talk one of them into supporting the party?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Hillary voted for the Iraq war, Hillary voted for the Iraq war. Hillary and her campaign have lied about obama's stance on choice.  I get no response on these points from Clinton supporters besides nyah, nyah, nyah, we're winners.

You can talk all you want about Obama's supposed "holier-than-thou" attitude.  That's not how I judge candidates, but I can tell you that Hillary always strikes me as a scolding schoolmarm.


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Clinton did vote for the war and she did for the Iran Bill. Feel better? Good. Now, Obama does act as if he's better on these issues, but what's been his record since becoming a US Senator?


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been in DKos threads this week (2.00 / 2)

under diaries by thereisnospoon, dengre, kid oakland, and others.

Many, many Obama supporters say they are through with the party and will not vote for our nominee if it's Hillary.

Some even say they would vote for McCain, but that's a much smaller number.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been in DKos threads this week (none / 0)

-Many, many Obama supporters say they are through with the party and will not vote for our nominee if it's Hillary.

Do you believe them? I think they're showboating.


by lonnette33 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been in DKos threads this week (none / 0)

I thought I saw kid oakland say just that earlier today (voting for McCain.)


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been in DKos threads this week (none / 0)

George, do you have a link for that? I'm surprised that k/o would say such a thing, but if that's true, he needs to be confronted on such a stupid sentiment.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 09:20:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been in DKos threads this week (none / 0)

I'll vote for HIllary in the general.  But have you ever asked yourself why people might be so angry with Hillary?  Like her betrayal of progressives with the Iraq war vote in 2002?  Her lying repeatedly about Obama's record?  Or her and her husband's sense of entitlement?  Or the Marc Rich pardon?


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (2.00 / 0)

We all have our moments, both good and ill.  These are difficult times for supporters and the more good will we extend to one another as 'progressives' and Democrats the better we will realise our mutual aspirations irrespective of candidate loyalties.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

pigeon holing everyone who prefers Obama as cult like followers is every bit as obnoxious as the people who pigeon hole Clinton's supporters as vapid, bitter, hate-mongers. Something you might consider before firing off a comment like this in the future.

Obama has plenty of problems as a candidate; so does Clinton, Edwards, and every other candidate that has ever run. And every candidate who has ever run has had supporters that recognized these problems and supported them anyway and supporters who were blind, willfully or otherwise, to the problems. But categorizing everyone who doesn't see the world the same way as you do as stupid, or blind, is not just insulting but beneath us as well.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than (none / 0)

Amazing, coming from someone who posts 2 Obama hit diaries every day -- to them turn around and complain about Obama's supporters vicious tactics.

If you think Obama supporters are "blind to the qualities and reasoning of those who support (gasp) Edwards or Clinton" I'd challenge you to acknowledge that some of us who support Obama also have "qualities and reasoning" -- but no, you write us off as some kind of kool-aid drinking cult. And tell me, are you "blind to her problems" -- are you a Clinton "supporter" or are you one of her "followers" who is unable to understand that she has weaknesses and there are perfectly valid reasons to support other candidates?

I don't think the attacks on Daou on DKos are justified, but they are no worse than some of the behavior of Clinton supporters here. You've got just as many immature Clinton people posting -- get over the stupid holier than thou crap.


by lifelongdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they troll rate his comments? (2.00 / 2)

That place has really jumped the shark and they don't seem to know it.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:57:19 PM EST

Re: they troll rate his comments? (none / 0)

it's very unpleasant to keep Hilary's message on kos.  It also gives Obama a bad name, probably unfairly, since his entire message is that she divides and he doesn't.  On kos anyway her supporters are more polite and ready to engages issues. when Peter came on not one of her supporters was able to engage with him, his diary was plastered with nasty words and go home messages.  We're Democrats, we're family. I think Obama asked his supporters at the NV debate to cool it, and to stick to the issues but his hope didn't trickle down.  It's sad, in may ways he's a fine man and with some experience could make a fine leader. But, he'll have to show he can lead if he wants my vote.  


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

22 troll ratings in this diary by Peter Daou (2.00 / 1)

Look at the second comment:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/23/ 184348/029/443/441962


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 22 troll ratings in this diary by Peter Daou (none / 0)

That's pretty amazing. Is that comment now hidden as a result? (I can see it, but I somehow managed to get TU status there, even though I support Clinton.)


by OrangeFur on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (2.00 / 1)

I saw this quote from Hildebrand discussed earlier on Talkleft and figured that BTD would be cross-posting his diary here.  Thanks for bringing the issue up.  

A cynical view of what campaigning is supposed to be about, for sure.  

If a candidate sits in people's LIVING ROOMS to court their votes, isn't that the best campaigning one can possibly do?  Obviously, it is not possible to conduct one-on-one visits into living rooms across the country, but isn't that the type of direct engagement and exposure to and talking with average people that we want to see from a candidate?  What exactly IS the supposedly superior way Obama approaches people?  In huge arenas from a bandstage, en masse?  From a gigantic billboard, looking down upon us ants?

Thumbing your nose at the most immediate and intimate contact with voters that one could possibly envision is not a good way to endear those sitting in our living rooms to the "unapproachable."


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:02:11 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I have no idea what Hillary does in terms of outreach to the Latino community, but it's obviously working.  Anyone who criticizes her methods must think Latinos are too stupid to recognize genuine outreach, or something.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Hillary has had  a 20 year relationship and conversation with the Latino community. She did not just strike one up in the last year or two when looking to run for president.

That is the difference.


by WMCB on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

She also established her Latino outreach much earlier than other campaigns, and her campaign manager is a Latina. Latinos are quite aware that she has been genuinely reaching out to them, views them as an important constituency, and is asking for their support.


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

That's not a "photo-op".  Do you see those four little black things sitting on the table?  Those are microphones.  This was an economic roundtable discussion to put a personal face on the economic downslide which has been written about, played out in front of the press.  It was to give the press a chance to hear personal stories much like the ones that every candidate hear as they move across the country.  The participants were:


In turn, the four Valley voters put a human face to the economic problems he says are facing America's middle class.

Kerry Bryant, an African-American woman who has stumbled into credit-card debt helping finance her son's college education.

Carlos Garcia, a Latino school maintenance worker who has been turned down repeatedly trying to consolidate his debts and worries about how his high school-age son will pay for college.

Gustavo Lizarde, a Latino auto repair shop owner who has fallen increasingly into debt because he can no longer pay for the health insurance he needs.

And Vitello, 52, a registered nurse, concerned about the improvements she needs on her house and about the adjustable interest-only $335,000 loan on the 980-square-foot home in the 14300 block of Miranda Street.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:07:56 PM EST

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Are you serious? Look, as GeorgeP will tell you, I don't support Clinton, but your post is just parsing and playing the same old political games of what the definition of is, is. Are you not able to see that here? Do you expect any reasonable voter to fall for it?


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

The point is, how is this different than what he slammed Hillary for?

How is is somehow wrong and indefinably dirty for her to go into Latino living rooms to ask for their votes, but him doing his roundtable is ineffably pure by contrast?  

That is the sort of thing that is not wearing well about Obama.  The constant finger-pointing at those icky politicians while he himself is obviously A POLITICIAN is the one thing that I believe is losing him this election.   It gets old, and the evidence that he is not remarkably different on that score is just too readily available.


by WMCB on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

The difference is that his campaign made a distinct choice here to be inclusive while at the same time representative of the makeup of many working class neighborhoods in the San Fernando Valley.  We have here 4 people, two male, two female, white, black and hispanic brought together to tell their stories to the press that show we are all in the same boat which is dragging us under.

That is much different than Hillary's walk through of Latin women only she pulled in Nevada culminating in the little sit-down with an illegal alien where she said "no Woman is illegal". It's playing race and gender politics rather than talking about the economic problems which face us all: mounting credit card debt, impossibly high cost of education, and the mortgage problem.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Please.  Hillary's campaign and her support is just as inclusive as Obama's.  If you look at who is voting for her, it is MORE inclusive.

And she did not talk to Latin women only in NV.  She talked to all sorts of people.  

Keep up the lying spin.  The latte richboy  intellectual liberals and a (now decreasing) margin of AA votes are not going to win Obama this election, no matter how many conservatives he tries to pull by leg-humping the corpse of Saint Ronnie.

The blue-collar backbone of the country, whatever their color, are swinging home to Hillary.  


by WMCB on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (2.00 / 2)

You probably couldn't have provided a better illustration of what I was talking about in this diary.

When Hillary's campaign finds people of a certain race to meet with her, it's some sort of disgusting identity politics.  When Obama's campaign finds people of a certain race to meet with him, you want to give him a medal.

I'm sure Hillary's campaign can put together a Bennetton ad just as well as the next guy.  If I find you a few hundred pictures of those appearances, will you start to understand that Obama is not doing anything special here?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

There is a great documentary film by Jean-Luc Godard called "Letter to Jane" about Jane Fonda's trip to Hanoi during the Vietnam War.  It's about framing and the media and how important it is to be aware of how the media will frame things when making a political point.  All the candidates do this to a certain extent.  The big difference is when Hillary creates a woman's only event, it is done intentionally and it anticipates the story which will be reported.  If you had bothered to read the newspaper articles about the story you were misrepresenting as a photo-op instead of a round-table discussion, you would see that the coverage was not a Bennetton ad, it was not how Obama brings all races together, it was about economics and hardships which are playing out for all of us.  Read the coverage of the Obama event and the Clinton Nevada walk-through and you will see the difference between using the press to get an issue out, and using the press to get out a story of race and gender.  


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (2.00 / 1)

The point is that the diversity is artificially created by the Obama campaign.  It's no less "identity politics" than Hillary deciding to meet with members of a certain race.

Look, the shorter version of this diary is that I really want you guys to get over yourselves.  All this blah blah blah is completely proving my point.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

The point is, which you refuse to even look at, is that 1. diversity is not artificial, certainly not in the neighborhood he chose, and 2. the point of the event and the coverage was to make economic problems the centerpoint, not race, diverse or otherwise.  If you had taken the time to read the coverage you would see that.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (2.00 / 1)

Do you really believe they just picked the first four people off the street?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

If I thought that why would I have written, just above, "his campaign made a distinct choice here to be inclusive while at the same time representative of the makeup of many working class neighborhoods in the San Fernando Valley."  Now that race and gender is all the press wants to talk about, you either play to that or you play against that grain and force them into expressing what you want them to.  At least have the courtesy of pretending to read.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You aren't doing obama any favors with these posts. They are simply not logically consistent.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

No, but he is sure doing me a favor.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Yeah- I gave up on Piuma a while back as I said with the healthcare discussion. It's like talking to a wall because he just don't get how his arguments are not only logically inconsistent (which isn't per se bad because of the "hobgoblin of little minds" and all of that) but also often self serving to the point of being Clintoneque.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Yeah- I gave up on Piuma a while back as I said with the healthcare discussion. It's like talking to a wall because he just don't get how his arguments are not only logically inconsistent (which isn't per se bad because of the "hobgoblin of little minds" and all of that) but also often self serving to the point of being Clintoneque.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You said "the diversity is not artificial" and you also said they made a "choice to be inclusive."  What you call "not reading" I call "trying to stop you from having it both ways."

Obviously the campaign went out and picked four people with a specific race and gender composition.  If Hillary did that, it would be identity politics, but when your candidate does it, they're making some kind of lofty statement about inclusiveness and blah blah blah.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

The diversity in the neighborhood is real, but what does this have to do with Obama?

I take it you're not from CA. Let me explain to you: Van Nuys is a typical middle class neighborhood in LA. This is what middle class neighborhoods in LA look like. That's what public schools in LA look like (except Obama forgot to invite any Asian people).

I'm not sure how you've concluded that Obama is somehow responsible for the diversity found in Los Angeles. He's not, and this was a photo-op of the most obvious kind. Just because they put microphones on the table and called it an "economic" discussion doesn't make it any less of a photo-op. Here's a clue: If it isn't a photo-op, you don't invite so many people with cameras.


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I'm from LA.  Obama could have chosen to go ethnic in another neighborhood.  Instead he chose to go middle-class, because he did not want the story to be about race, he wanted it to be about the issue.  If he had done the same thing in South-Central or Boyle Heights the reporting would have been about race first, economics second.  As a result of their decision, the reporting was almost exclusively about the issue.  

A photo-op is to create a photo.  What you hope to generate is nothing more than the photo and let that tell the story.  He did not create a photo-op.  He created a forum to be attended by the press to get the issue out in real human terms, not just economic theory, and they did exactly that.   Because it was successful it is something to criticize.  That's all this is about.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

He could have gone to any neighborhood on the Westside, but he didn't because he was setting up a Benetton-style photo-op. You're only proving my point.

I think you're confused about what "photo-op" means. A "photo-op" can be a real event, but its an event that has been staged so it looks good for the cameras. That "discussion" was the very definition of a "photo-op".


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

He's not confused, he just thinks the element of optics, employed by every politician, is something different when Obama is doing it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You say he could have gone to any neighborhood on the Westside and yet you say Van Nuys is working class, which is the thrust of the story.  You say he was setting up a Benetton ad and yet you point out there are no Asians.   If you think a discussion which generated articles on the discussion is the same as a photo-op where the picture is supposed to tell the story, then every time a camera is present is a photo-op which would make virtually everything a photo-op.

Exactly what is wrong with admitting that actually something good was done here?  It doesn't make him perfect, but this discussion is a perfect example of the lengths some people will go through to try to tear someone down.  The approach is not to answer the charge against Hillary by showing something positive about her. Instead let's take a good example of a campaign doing something right and be cynical about it and then attack anyone who supports him.  


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

When someone is running for president, everything they do is a photo-op. Duh! You're the one trying to claim that it was some serious policy discussion that demonstrates Obama's superior virtue on the campaign trail. I think Clinton's photo-ops (and policy disucssions) at King Taco and at the IBEW were much more effective and inclusive.

The "discussion" only generated articles because it was a photo-op where reporters were invited. Once the reporters showed up, they have to write something.


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

It's because your argument is ultimately this silly that it descends into debates over the word 'photo op" You see this is why in the general he could close. You get into these silly parsing of words because a) you annointed everything he does as above politics so of course it creates a higher standard that no politician can ulimately live by and b) it's tailor made for the GOP to define your candidate.

You really don't get how your approach hurts your candidate? As I 've said a million times but it needs to be repeated- politics is define or be defined.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you better than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You are really deceiving yourself here. Clinton's outreach to the Latino community has been extensive. Why do you think latinos went against the union (and spanish language attack ads) and voted for her so heavily in NV? Obama all but ignored Latinos until NV. And that photo-op at the house in Van Nuys is a joke. You think they got that racial/gender balance by accident?

Clinton is endorsed by the founder of the UFW and the Latino mayor of Los Angeles. That's how you develop strong connections in the Latino community.


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

People probably won't stop saying or thinking that Obama is a different kind of politician or that his brand of politics is cleaner than say Bush's or Clinton's.  People who support Obama have already made up their minds about him.  Most of them couldn't tell you the difference between his and Hillary's healthcare plans.  But they like and trust him on some gut level.  This is what modern campaigns are about.  

This gets back to the "who would you rather have a beer with" question.  Tell me again what exactly the heck that has to do with being President.  But it doesn't matter.  People want to connect with their elected officials in some way that is perhaps creepy and definitely unrealistic.

Nevertheless, it counts for a lot of political capital and wins or loses elections.

So, go ahead, keep showing Obama with Rezko or Obama with some folks around a white table.  Doesn't matter.  The people that support Obama have their minds made up.  So do the people who can't stand him.


by the mollusk on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:21:54 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

The problem is that Obama doesn't largely connect with those voters. He attacts latte drinkers and african americans. Or at least, that's what the NH, NV and Mi votes showed.

It seems like Obama supporters only use IA as their basis for making these kinds of statements when it hasn't been backed up in other states. Perhaps IA should be looked at as more of fluke. FL seems to me that it will be the most representative primary.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

isn't florida one of the ones where obama and edwards pledged not to campaign?


by meddle on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Obama's running ads there.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

None of the candidates are (none / 0)

campaigning there.


by tabbycat in tenn on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (2.00 / 1)

yeah, that 37% of the vote Obama got in NH was all African-American and effete latte drinkers. Same thing with the 45% in Nevada -- lots of African American latte drinkers out in all those rural counties he swept there. And Iowa just doesn't count, some aberration among the white people in the midwest clouds their judgement. And clearly Obama should have won Michigan with a white write-in votes (after Clinton reneged on her pledge and put her name on the ballot).

And sure, Florida will be the most representative primary -- no one has campaigned there, the voters will be voting on name id and national press only -- so those results will be really  representative.

How hard is it for you to acknowledge that there are plenty of sane voters of all ethnicities who support Obama? (I'm a 61 year old Latino male in that category). I know you're shocked that Clinton actually has a real race on her hands, but that's the reality -- if you can't understand why Hillary doesn't have universal appeal, you're not listening to a big chunk of the electorate who view the world differently than you.


by lifelongdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You've got to admit that he's not winning with latinos, right? He's not winning working class votes right? And you're bragging about winning 37% of the vote? I agree that he's winning the african american votes.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

He won union members in Iowa, and ran even with Clinton among union members in Nevada.. so I think he's doing fine among working class voters.

Yes, I'm bragging about 37%... if you can brag about Hillary's 39% in NH, it really isn't a stretch to brag about Obama's 37%


by lifelongdem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

If you support Hillary, PLEASE stop calling yourself progressive.  DLC hacks did their damndest to destroy Dean's candidacy in 2004, and they repeatedly expressed their contempt for the "niave idealists" and crazy peaceniks who opposed the Iraq War.  And who turned out to be more realistic and pragmatic than all of the Beltway insiders, Republican AND Democratic, combined.


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Bull.  I am a proud progressive and in certain ways I tend even socialist.  Yet, I support Hillary as the better progressive between the two (Hillary and Obama) and will have that discussion as to the reasons why any day of the week.  


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Laughable.  You don't know your candidates.


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You obviously do.  Pray tell, what's this I hear that Obama's health care proposal will leave out an estimated 15 Million people?  Not very progressive of him, huh?  


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Both Hillary's and Edwards leaves out 12 million.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You are making shit up now.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Illegal immigrants.  Edwards said so point blank in the last debate.


by Piuma on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Cute.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

This is why I don't trust several of you as posters. So coverage of illegal immigrants is to you a sign that he's not covering everyone? well there you go.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I'm talking about winning in a particlular demographic. I don't think losing the latino vote by what 40%? is saying that he's winning with latinos.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Clinton did not put her name on the ballot after any pledge.  All of the names were already on.  Obama and JRE took theirs off to court favor with jealous Iowa and NH, but Clinton did not.


by WMCB on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

And how would you classify yourself?  Not a latte drinker I take it?


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting question, Steve (2.00 / 1)

Last spring, I was strongly considering Obama as my candidate, but I got a sense from both Obamas (Barack and Michelle) by their statements and even body language that they believe that they are better than the rest of us. "To know me is to love me" and all the rest.

Look, bottomline if Barack was good in smaller settings, then his campaign would do more of the roundtables. But based upon reports by the media (which normally favors him), he's just not good at conveying empathy for people's concerns. I remember reading media reports of small roundtables with people telling him their healthcare concerns and he looked very uncomfortable and had a hard time relating to these people. It wasn't just one account like this, but several accounts.

Quite frankly, I don't believe that any of the candidates have that "I feel your pain" empathetic quality to the same degree that Bill Clinton had it in the 1990s. I'll give you an example. I wasn't impressed with any of the candidates during the townhall portion of the Las Vegas debate a few months ago. I recall a question by a man who asked about racial profiling at airports. The candidate who responded to the question didn't offer "I'm sorry for the way you've been treated; it must have been awful for you." The answer just contained rote policy prescriptions that got sidetracked to blaming Bush for Guantenemo Bay etc.

Maybe the candidates were having an off night in Las Vegas that night and perhaps they are better one on one. I don't know. I haven't met any of the candidates.

But back to Hildeband's comments. I do find it interesting that Hildeband took note of HRC's living room strategy approach in Nevada. That must mean that the Obama camp thought it was highly effective. If that's the case, as a HRC supporter, I hope that she continues with this campaign strategy. If the Obama campaign is complaining about what the Clinton campaign is doing, that's a good sign for the Clinton campaign to keep doing what they're doing....

 


by ademption on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:24:07 PM EST

Re: Interesting question, Steve (none / 0)

Why don't you stop worrying about how much empathy different candidates can project and look at the power structures in which different candidates are embedded?  Look at McAuliffe and Penn, and the DLC.  Look at Hillary's vote to authorize force in Iraq.  Support Hillary if you want, but stop calling yourself a "progressive".  Hillary betrayed the nation when she voted for the Iraq war.


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

This is all that the Hillary supporters have at this point. Nah, nah,nah,nah your candidate does all the sh*t my candidate does.  Talk about cynical.  The country's whole political elite needs a major overhaul, and that includes the Clinton faction of the Democratic Party.  Hillary will not provide that overhaul.  Edwards was the best shot to do so, but he's fading.  Obama, because of his long career in grassroots activism and electoral politics (i.e. NOT as First Lady), because of his relative youth, is a better prospect than Hillary


by rasputin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:08:28 PM EST

My Take On This (none / 0)

Yes, Obama has a lot of energetic, young supporters who say over the top things. But then again, all the campaigns have a few nasty supporters out there...

Obama supporters are mistaken if they believe that Obama is pure...in a binary sense of that word. He has been quite the attacker this whole time, but with his own, unique, subtle, almost velvet touch. He is almost obtuse in his attacking style...definitely not direct. I have never seen anything quite like it, quite the skill.

The degeneration of the Obama/Clinton contest into "racial politics" has been a matter of both campaigns doing things that they should not have been doing.  However, the surrogates for the Clinton campaign probably hold the edge in terms of doing the wrong thing in this department...they might have a 9-5 lead.

And this destructive meme has been stoked by a complicit MSM and blogosphere. This is NOT helping the party.  And I know that if Hillary wins the nomination, the "racial comments" by her campaign have probably lost me at least 10 volunteers around here...volunteers that would have helped with our November efforts.

Approximately 70% of the political activists, the foot soldiers of the Democratic party, seem to be supporting Obama or Edwards. Hillary's scorched earth, racial stuff is going to cause a lot of them to NOT work for us on the presidential, and that will hurt.  

If Hillary were to become the nominee, does she REALLY need these foot soldiers?  I would say yes. If you think November 2008 is going to be easy, you are kidding yourself. We will need ALL of Obama's foot soldiers, not half of them.


by Demo37 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:06:22 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

To be honest, he's still a "mystery" to me- at first I did think of him as this very honest Abe Lincoln type who was trying to be above the fray and give out the good vibes although woefully short on experience and judgment.  But now the way he accused the Clintons of racism, Rezko, his "Chicago" style politics statement, his ducking of votes, the "present" votes, the "oops" votes- I think I've been a bit conned and he's just like every other politician- and I'm not saying I blame him for that- politics is a NASTY business- perhaps that's how you have to proceed, I DON'T KNOW.  The thing I do know is he's not who or what I thought.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:10:12 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

Here's how the L.A. Times portrayed this obvious photo-op attempt created by Obama to play race politics over substantial issue based politics.  Notice the constant references to race and gender in the article.  Notice how it played into the race/gender war scenario which was what the press was interested about at the time.:


Obama's backyard economics session

The deck is stacked in favor of big banks and against workers, he tells voters at a Van Nuys home.

By Seema Mehta, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 17, 2008

Barack Obama sat in registered nurse Mimi Vitello's sunny backyard in Van Nuys and listened as she and three other local voters talked about their worries over home loans and credit card debt. The presidential hopeful listened intently and said the mortgage and credit card industries were skewed against working Americans.

"The deck has been stacked in favor of the big banks and the big financial companies and not for the consumers and homeowners," he told the residents.

They sat around a table outside Vitello's modest home, which she bought with an interest-only loan. Now that loan worries her. "My income is not going to jump ahead, and here comes my interest-only [payment hikes] in a couple years," Vitello said.

Obama noted that foreclosures could cost California's economy $23 billion, and he blamed the federal government for not regulating lenders.

"It's an example of how when the federal government falls down on the job and is listening more to the special interests than it is to ordinary working families that we end up getting into these kinds of crises," he said.

Obama has proposed creating a $10-billion fund to help prevent foreclosures, eliminate some taxes and fees for families who must sell, and offer counseling to homeowners.

He also proposed changes in the consumer credit card industry. "People are getting caught in a credit card system that is unfair," he said, faulting "teaser rates" that skyrocket, interest charged on late fees and hidden fees.

His words resonated with Gustavo Lizarde, an auto repair shop owner who has tapped his credit cards to keep the business running. He said teaser rates that went from 0% to 29.9% forced him into a spiral of debt that made him unable to afford health insurance. "Now what I have to do is refinance my home, so I can get out of debt, so I can breathe," he said.

Obama told the gathering that he no longer had credit card debt, but that was not always the case. "Five years ago, before I had spoken at the convention, before my book sales took off, etc., we were in same situation," he said.

"My wife and I borrowed to go to college and law school because we don't come from wealthy families. When I got out of law school and we got married, our combined student loan debt was higher than our mortgage," Obama said. "And so it took us 10 years to pay that off, which meant that we couldn't save."

Obama proposed creating a credit card rating system so that consumers could make more informed choices, and banning companies from raising interest rates without new agreements with borrowers.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:12:27 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I don't see anything about race in that article.  Is your point to make my argument into something it's not, and then declare victory over it?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

So, the reporter wrote a decent article about actual issues. Good for Seema Mehta. That doesn't mean this wasn't a Benetton-style photo-op or that Obama's motives are more virtuous than other candidates.


by LakersFan on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

No one's claiming victory or that Obama is more virtuous.  But choose your victims wisely.  To knock what was done in Van Nuys simply because you want to knock Obama and this is the closest thing at hand does nothing positive for any of us.  The Van Nuys discussion is an example of a campaign doing something right.  It doesn't say anything about Clinton or about Obama all the time.  It simply says, in this instance, the campaign did what the quote claims they try to do.  A more positive approach for our politics and our Party would have been to show an equally positive example of Clinton, not try to attack something which got things right.


by Piuma on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I opened this diary with a quote from an Obama supporter who disparages Hillary Clinton for doing things right.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

"I opened this diary with a quote from an Obama supporter who disparages Hillary Clinton for doing things right."

That's fair.  You're critizing Obama for hitting Hillary on the same sort of campaign format that Obama has used.  Okay.

But most of the complaint's against Obama's "attacks" that I see involve an isolated quote from some staffer, who may or may not be off the reservation.  Which stand in stark contrast to the systematic statements made by the Clintons on any number of issues attacking Obama.  I mean, it seems that the point of your diary is that Obama is no worse than Hillary, but do you really believe that he attacks her in the same systematic and dishonest way that she attacks him?

Put another way, if this campaign were between Obama and Edwards instead of Clinton Obama and Edwards, do you really believe that it would be anywhere near this nasty?  I cetainly don't.


by davey jones on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:24:59 PM EST

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

You want to make this diary about something entirely different than what it's about.  With over 100 comments here, I think you need to start your own :)


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

   "It is unfortunate that people have tried to distort what Mrs. Clinton had to say about Dr. King."

   "I think there has been a deliberate and systematic attempt by some people in the Obama campaign to really fan the flames about race and to really distort what Senator Clinton said.  I understood and I think most right thinking people understood what she said.

   "President and Senator Clinton have a record, a history, a very long history of bringing people together. No right thinking American would ever think that Senator or President Clinton would ever do anything that would use the race card"

   "I must tell you...I'm trying to set the record straight...the Obama camp is doing something else, theyr'e sending out memos to the media trying to suggest that the Clintons are playing the race card."

   -Rep. John Lewis on News Hour 1/14


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

All I can say is the Church of Obama. It is a cult we are dealing with.


by moi moi on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:32:51 PM EST

When Obama poops ... there is no smell! (none / 0)

None. Honest.  I have this from his supporters who had followed him into the john and collected his actual feces for a keepsake.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:52:30 PM EST

hey Steve ... (none / 0)

.. how about this? Is this more the kind of  discussion you were looking for?

I give you all the credit man...you wrote the classiest Hit Diary ever.


by JoeCoaster on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 08:49:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hey Steve ... (none / 0)

rofl, I try to stay classy.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course I think He's the Best candidate (none / 0)

I always read your posts and diaries with interest, but I must say I don't really understand your point here.  Of course I think Obama is "better" than the other candidates, in the sense that I think he would make the best president.  That's why I'm supporting him and you've supported Edwards in the past.  

Now, reasonable people obviously disagree about who is best equipped to the lead the country and Obama has plenty of flaws.  At the end of the day, they're all politicians -- not saints.  

That being said, I don't think it is sanctimoneous to argue, as i have in the past, that Obama does represent something new, if still not perfect.  If the standard is he has to transcend being a politician at all to represent a new approach, he obviously fails.  But that kind of either/or just doesn't make sense to me.  

Then again, I suppose I'm just one of those "annoying Obama supporters" that are apparently monolithic.  


by HSTruman on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:07:45 AM EST

Re: Of course I think He's the Best candidate (none / 0)

Read Piuma's posts in this diary for a good example of what I am talking about.

Of course there's nothing wrong with thinking Obama would be a great President.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course I think He's the Best candidate (none / 0)

You just can't take being argued with.  You gave a quote in the beginning and then tried to portray an event to claim hypocrisy, that it was the same as the objection in the quote.  I pointed out what you gave was a terrible example because it showed just the opposite.  And that you had two choices: try to show hypocrisy on Obama's part or try to disprove the quote by offering something positive by Clinton.  You chose to go the negative route.

Part of your intent was to create a construct where any defense against the falsity of your example would be an act of proving your point about the supporters.  If you think anyone is buying your guileless act or that it wasn't crystal clear from the start what you are up to you're mistaken.  The thing is I don't care. I don't care what you think of me personally.

You saw a negative quote from an Obama supporter about Clinton and you decided to publicize that.  So at the very start you are choosing to increase negative publicity about her.  Then you mold around that a negative portrayal of Obama, and wrap  it up with a negative portrayal of Obama supporters.   And then expect people to view you as holier-than-thou.


by Piuma on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course I think He's the Best candidate (none / 0)

Your eloquent essays about how this rather mundane photo-op is evidence of something wonderful about Obama's campaign do, in fact, prove my point.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course I think He's the Best candidate (none / 0)

It depends on the definition of "photo op"


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama Better Than The Rest Of Us? (none / 0)

I really can't stand the moral superiority garbage for Obama's supporters. Now I'm not an Obama hater at all, but all canididates have their flaws. Obama has changed his positions on issues like healthcare. He has not been a true crusader against the Iraq war from the begining like he wants to seem. And he was hypocritical for bashing unions in Iowa for supporting Clinton and Edwards, but embracing them when they attacked Clinton in Nevada.

I'm Hillary supporter, and I obviously don't claim she's perfect either, but enough of the moral superiority garbage. Obama is a politician like the rest of them. His ambition is certainly not any lesser than that of Hillary Clinton, or anyone else running for President.


by Christopher Lib on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM EST

Re: Is Obama Better? (1.00 / 1)

Obama exists as a candidate because the anti-Clinton MSM created him.

The Iowa caucus was a hoot--it no more represented Iowa itself than it did the rest of the nation.

Tens of thousands of bused-in operatives, paid for by Oprah Winfrey and blogosphere megamillions--literal outsiders, GOP and indie crossovers, held together with one common thread: stop the Clintons from returning to power.

Obama was their tool--and remains their tool.  He never had a realistic chance of winning the United States presidency.  

The electorate by November would be so polarized by his race-baiting and naiveness than anyone running against him would prevail.  The GOP and its punditocracy has always known this fact.

The MSM has continually overlooked Obama's glaring shortcomings, and the fact that he has the least amount of national experience of any candidate for the Chief Executive office, ever--while, as ever, damning the Clintons, made Obama a gift to the GOP that kept on giving.

But New Hampshire, Michigan, and Nevada--in other words, reality--put a damper on their plans for this absolute "fantasy."

And now all the anti-Clinton pundits are left with is South Carolina, which, as the African-American candidate within a largely African-American electorate there, now means for Obama next to nothing in moving forward.

Thank the Lord, after Tuesday's Florida primary, and certainly after Super Tuesday, reality will trump fantasy.

Spin can only carry outsiders storming the gates of Democratic primaries so far.  Ultimately, a clear majority of core Democrats decide their standard-bearers.  And this year, they are not trading in the Clintons for the untested and unvetted Obama.


by lambros on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:58:08 AM EST

troll-rated for dishonesty (none / 0)

Where were the tens of thousands of bused-in operatives, paid for by Oprah, etc.?

That's a bunch of crap.

It's possible that some out-of-state people caucused in some counties, but not tens of thousands, and not enough to influence the outcome. Also, there is NO EVIDENCE that the Obama campaign "bused in" people to commit voter fraud.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 05:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: troll-rated for dishonesty (none / 0)

I am really sick of this too, but wow, I've never seen you get that angry before!

It really disgusts me that in every single state, the losing side keeps screaming about fraud, suppression, disenfranchisement, etc.  It makes us all look like a bunch of babies.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 05:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

AGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that's me screaming) (none / 0)

This is a ridiculous diary.  There are over 100 comments to it, perhaps 3 of which are intelligent and thoughtful.  I am so f'ing sick of the petty BS that permeates this site.  

The Clinton supporters have me all but ready to give up and just not vote or better yet change my registration to GREEN.  I could name 10 HRC supporters here just in this thread alone who are so ill informed as to make me truly sad for the future of my party and my country.  I actually read several comments claiming HRC is the true progressive in the pack..... AGH !!!!!!!  (me screaming again).

HRC progressive? give me a f'ing break  There are no true progressives in this race, but JRE comes the closest of them all.

Obama is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the point being missed by HRC supporters is that some people in the democratic party care more about winning the White House than the nomination.  Obama is NOT HRC and for some people that is enough.  I don't know why it is so hard for HRC supporters to understand that a big part of the democratic party and the nation as a whole just don't want another Clinton period, whether it is  Job destroying NAFTA promoting, gay  baiting don't ask dont tell, DOMA signing William Jefferson, or his DLC enabling partner Hillary.

There is a huge part of this country who simply will not vote for Clinton.  Don't you f'ing get it?  Some of us don't think we can waste another minute failing to turn this country around. Knowing all this I am still amazed how quickly so called "progressives" will throw the White House, Congress and Senate under the bus, just to nominate a candidate that will tear our party and country apart.

VOTE JRE FOR AMERICA


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:09:16 PM EST

Re: AGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that's me screaming) (none / 0)

Is your comment premised on the assumption that the diarist is a Clinton supporter?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that's me screaming) (none / 0)

No it's premised on the fact that the diary and 99% of the comments are ridiculous rants from petulant children, that neither serve our party or country.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

And talk about stating the obvious.  When you try to slam Obama by claiming he is no better the anyone else because he "creates" photo op's to serve some purpose not appropriate to a political campaign. How about that photo op discovered yesterday of both Clintons posing with Rezco (or what ever his name was...Hsu, was that it?)

Give me a break and start acting like f'ing adults who care about our country rather than petulant children.

Some people would rather be right than successful.    It's sad.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

There's no slam on Obama here whatsoever.

There is a slam on people who think that when Hillary does the same thing as everyone else, she is somehow evil.

There is a slam on people who think that when Obama does the same thing as everyone else, he is somehow transcendent.

I will continue supporting Edwards for, most likely, the same reasons as you.  I just like for people to live in the real world.

I honestly did not know it was possible for this diary to go over anyone's head.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

It's not. But they can't look in the mirror, which is what you are asking them to do.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

Have you read the comments.....?

What purpose does it serve to point out that Obama is a politician and does what all politicians do?

Have you not been on this site long enough to know who would jump on this diary and make the asinine comments that have been made?

Did you think that slamming supporters of Obama would illicit praise for your non partisan portrayal of political campaigns?

Honestly if when you wrote this diary you believed that Clinton supporters would'nt jump on it and start their rants or that Obama supporters would somehow praise it as being fair, then you are somewhat naive.

I really think diaries that are designed to disparage a candidate or that candidates supporters do us no favor.   I truly am almost to the point where I just wish the whole thing would go away.  

As a party we deserve what we get if we are too stupid to see what we are doing.  


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

If I refrained from writing a diary because ranters might show up in the comments, I wouldn't write any diaries.  Maybe that's your goal.

I wrote this because I had a point to make.  Maybe I'm right, and maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe people will get it, and maybe they won't.  But either way, it's just one guy sharing his opinion.  If you don't like it, move on to the next diary, which will probably be about some poll.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

Well personally I stopped reading diaries that had anything to do with polls months ago. No disrespect to Jerome or the other front page diarist's who live and die by polls.

I've also stopped reading any diary written by about 15 regular contributers here because they are so slanted and ridiculous in their nature.

I try  now to only read diaries that are positive diaries written in support of a candidate.  I do like to educate myself about the positive aspects and activities of our candidates. Unfortunately I probably  miss several good diaries because I have written of their authors as racist, homophobic, ill informed or trolls.  I won't name names but I'm sure you can figure out for yourself of whom I am speaking.

Your diary really surprised and disappointed me because it was so unlike you to participate in, let alone begin a diary that was from the beginning designed to inflame. Creating negative diaries is really unbecoming, regardless of who writes them.  I was just taken back that you were the author of this type of diary.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 02:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

I am very, very frustrated at this point with the good vs. evil narrative the Obama supporters have constructed in their own minds.  Daily Kos used to be my favorite site and it is unreadable.

The ability to have substantive discussions depends in part on the willingness of people to think critically about their own candidate.  I only find this to be a problem among one group of people.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 02:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

Funny, we see the same problem, but see it in a totally different group of people.

As JRE said so eloquently the other day.  "I want to be the member of the adult Democratic party."

If it wasn't for Daily Kos I could not stomach reading the diaries here.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 02:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

Spitting back a quote doesn't make you right. Right now, over at openleft, this diary is going on  by Paul Rosenberg, who like Ezra Klein, Paul Krugman and multiple others have experienced real personal attacks for disagreeing on principles with Obama:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=3434

Right now along that thread there is to poster whom I keep pointint out to him that there is nothing substantively different since Obama entered office with regard to his Iraqi record and Clinton. That ultimately , if one is going to have a real discussion, these things have to be holding all politicians (they are all politicians) accountable for their words and deeds. There can be no exceptions.

He/she went on a rant about how they are against American imperialisms as if that had something to do with my comment about looking in the mirror and making sure one holds all the candidates accountable. That word fall all supporters needs to become their new mantra. Not- my candidate walks on water. But- is my candidate accountable. Until I see that from just some of you and not the silliness above with Piuma actually arguing about whether this was a photo op and less of the rantings about how evil everyone else is (Bush language) I am going to assume you aren't capable of it.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 03:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

There's more to one's record than merely the votes.  You don't know what's gone on behind the scenes. Neither do I.  Which is why I take Russ Feingold's word on it.  When he says Obama did the most of all the candidates to move the Dem Caucus in a direction he, Feingold, wanted that says something to me about his record.

Words do matter.  There is a difference between a photo-op, an occasion designed to create a picture to tell a story, and a round-table discussion.  I wouldn't call the women discussions Clinton had in either New Hampshire or Nevada photo-ops although they played out in front of cameras.  Someone simply walking through a neighborhood shaking hands with  people followed by a gaggle of reporters is a photo-op.  Photo-ops usually have little substance beyond what the picture shows.  The last debate was held up in the beginning for the press photo-op of the 3 of them standing on the stage, then they were escorted out, and the debate began.  Words do have meanings.


by Piuma on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 04:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

a) Not everything is behind closed doors. It also doesn't help with accountability. We judge candidates on what we know. Not on what you projected onto them. We know what his record in the Senate is. We know he's not lead on FISA, on Murtha's plan, on even the recent stimulus package (which Edwards at least put a statement out about how it wasn't geared to the middle and low income), etc.  I can sadly list more examples. His right of center economic advisor, his centrist healthcare plan, his views on foreign policy with regard to getting out of Iraq, his views with regard to Pakistan. Some of these views as an actual moderate I agree with. But the pretense that he's some progressive who is above all others in this race is just patently false.

b) Your parsing on the photo op is what condemns you regarding a different kind of politics.


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 05:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

What on earth are you referring to and more importantly why are you directing a comment to me that has nothing to do with what I have said?


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 04:37:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: AGH !!!!! (that's me screaming) PS (none / 0)

One of the lamest behaviors on blogs is where someone makes a larger point and the person to whom they make the point pretends not to understand. Above someone else got my point- why can't you?


by bruh21 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 05:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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