Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina?

A couple weeks ago, I got some pushback for writing the following about Hillary Clinton's South Carolina strategy:

A wise friend of mine told me today her sense was that the Clinton campaign seems to already have written off South Carolina and is seeking to lessen the significance of an Obama win there by portraying it as a foregone conclusion because of his appeal among black voters.

In other words, the process of minimizing the significance of a Barack Obama win by sort of portraying it as inevitable was already underway; the fact that she's been stumping outside of the state since Monday's debate, leaving Bill and Chelsea behind to do the honors, would certainly appear to have borne this prediction out. As former South Carolina governor Jim Hodges (who supports Barack Obama) put it, this tactic is "an insurance policy against failure" (h/t Chris Cilizza) and if the Public Policy Polling memo that accompanied their poll released yesterday showing Obama with a 16 point lead is any indication, this management of expectations appears to be working.

"Barack Obama is the run away favorite to win South Carolina," said Dean Debnam, President of Public Policy Polling. "Especially as it seems Hillary Clinton will shift her focus to the Super Tuesday primaries, anything other than a double digit victory for him in South Carolina would be a surprise at this point."

But what this walk the line between campaigning there and seeming not to fails to take into account is the apparent need to do some post-debate damage control. Today, the first of a series of Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby tracking polls was released whose results not only show Clinton trailing Obama by 18 points, but also appear to indicate a loss of support for Obama and Clinton and a surge for John Edwards on the one post-debate polling day. From John Zogby's analysis:

"Obama holds a 43% to 25% lead over Clinton, with Edwards at 15%. But that does not tell the whole story here.

"Yesterday alone, Obama led with 39% with Clinton 22% and Edwards at 18%. One day does not make a trend, but the potential is there showing that Edwards may have scored some points in the Monday CNN debate and in his campaigning. Over the three days of polling, he is clearly splitting the white vote with Clinton."

Edwards within 4 points of Clinton in South Carolina? Didn't see that coming. Now, it should be noted that these numbers are the result of just one out of the three days polled and so the sample size is quite small (and MOE quite large), but the trend certainly indicates a clear drop in support for Obama and Clinton and a bump for Edwards, a sign that Edwards gained the most from Monday's debate (and the others' squabbling may have turned voters off.) The fact that Edwards is there on the ground while Clinton is not certainly gives him an opportunity to capitalize on what may very well be a surge in his direction (although Clinton is due back in South Carolina tomorrow.)

One important caveat is that Zogby does point out that the polling over the three days indicates a very fluid race but if tomorrow's poll, reflecting two post-debate polling days and just one pre-debate, continues to show Edwards gaining on Clinton, she may end up wishing she'd stayed in South Carolina this week after all.



Display:


Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (2.00 / 1)

It would make my day! Here's hoping!


by waldo on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:29:30 PM EST

Make your day part two (none / 0)

Second day shows the same trend:

Democrat Barack Obama's big lead over rival Hillary Clinton slipped slightly but is still substantial two days before South Carolina's presidential primary, according to a Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby poll released on Thursday.

Obama's lead dipped three points overnight to give him a 39 percent to 24 percent edge over Clinton in the rolling tracking poll. John Edwards climbed four points to reach 19 percent --within striking distance of Clinton and second place.


by MassEyesandEars on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

...she may end up wishing she'd stayed in South Carolina this week after all

No way. There were only 14 days of campaigning before Super Tuesday. Wasting 5 of those days in South Carolina would have been a monumental strategic blunder for the Clinton campaign. It is not a state she can win on Saturday and it is not a state the Democrats can win in November.


by hwc on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:34:17 PM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

Yeah, that's fine if she comes in a respectable second.  But a third place showing could be problematic.


by Drummond on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

It doesn't really matter. Edwards was already borrowing against his $8 million in federal matching funds before Iowa. He's essentially broke in terms of being able to wage any kind of Super Tuesday campaign...advertising, field operations, etc.


by hwc on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:30:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're missing the point (none / 0)

If Edwards beats Hillary in SC it shows she is vulnerable - people who have swung to her from Edwards will have second thoughts and the undecideds will flow differently.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the point (none / 0)

Not at all.

Edwards is the 'native son', Obama is African American. Clinton can get 10% in SC and it won't make a difference.

The key, is how much of the white vote can Obama get. If he gets more then 40-50% that's really a good sign. If he gets 18% which is what is currently polling then he will be labeled the identity candidate.

I really believe Clinton wants to lose SC, which is why she went so hard against Obama in the debate on his home turf. She wants him to win a huge chunk of the black vote and marginalize him.

(And with Bill there she can say 'they' did their best to represent the people of SC.)


by kristoph on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the point (none / 0)

The better Edwards does, the worse for Obama and the better for Clinton.

The ideal scenario (from Clinton's standpoint) would be for South Carolina to break as follows for Obama:

Black voters: 100%
White voters: 0%

How Edwards and Clinton divvy up the white vote is largely irrelevant.


by hwc on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 02:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is (none / 0)

bizarre twisted cynical logic - though it might be true.  If Hillary intentionally wants to lose SC to marginalize Obama - she and her campaign are sicker than even I thought.  

I agree with one statement - she went after him in the debate - she wants him in the gutter with her - she thinks its to her benefit - I agree its to her benefit - but everyone else loses.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

no, super Tuesday is so much more important than SC that a third place finish will mean nothing in the end.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 06:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

Clinton won't win this state. Her time is much better spent in February 5 states. If Edwards gets second place, so be it, but I could care less.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:37:03 PM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (2.00 / 2)

Edwards had an exceptional debate performance in SC.  While I have the utmost respect for the support Sens. Obama and Clinton enjoy among African-American voters, I believe John Edwards has made an excellent case and I hope he receives a larger share of those votes than the polling would suggest.  This is a man who chose to launch his campaign in New Orleans when much of the world had long since moved on from that terrible tragedy.

Since the Clinton supporters don't seem to care if their candidate finishes in second place (and they're probably right as a matter of strategy), I will be happy to take that silver medal off her hands on behalf of my candidate.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:48:01 PM EST

Yes I think he can! (2.00 / 0)

and he has a fan!   :)

"Edwards girl"?

At least she seems smart. And she has buttons.

sorry... my bad.

Here is the link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lGSVxPQjY8g

From the "About This Video"


This is my answer to the uh, "Obama Girl"...lol...granted, not quite the production value, because of the budget differences...how ironic...
we are not voting for a rock star people (um, and JRE is cool too with fabulous hip supporters)...we are voting for the president of our country...it's not about the first this or that...its about the BEST....John Edwards...the clear choice...
be sure to listen for my parrot's backround vocals..lol


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:48:23 PM EST

Re: Yes I think he can! (none / 0)

One wonders how NCDemAmy has time to write all those diaries and make a video at the same time.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes I think he can! (none / 0)

careful...  :)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

The MSM has already given Obama & Edwards favorite son status in this state.  Obama is expected to win handily, and nobody will be surprised if Edwards does well also, especially after his great debate performance. I don't think Edwards can overtake Clinton, though.  If anything, a close second and third place, like Iowa. By concentrating on the Feb 5 states and having a lower profile in SC this week, Clinton should be able to win the expectation game (again). If she can win Florida handily she will get momentum from that for Feb 5, even if the delegates aren't awarded.  


by AnnC on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:51:31 PM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

if she gets a third place showing, even in a state with 2 "favorite sons" that could hurt her momentum into florida, and super tuesday.  obama would get a boost, edwards would get a bigger boost, while it wouldn't resuffle the deck, it might level the field (metaphore overload...)


Mccain/Palin '08: Grandpa's losin' it.
by Doug Tuttle on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:54:14 PM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (2.00 / 1)

of the titanic? No no no! I don't think that's a good analogy! Her campaign is soaring! Like the Hindenburg! oh wait...
:)
by KainIIIC on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:13:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Objects in your mirror... (none / 0)

...may be closer than they appear.


by DrFrankLives on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:09:05 AM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

gotta hand it to Edwards supporters, they live in the land of perpetual dream. i still wonder about all the assurances that polls were lying about Iowa and NH, etc...

in any case, i do think there's an outside shot that Edwards could pull off a 2nd place finish in SC. but unlikely and, in any case, won't really matter.


by CalDem on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:19:46 AM EST

I hope its close (none / 0)

I want an exciting campaign season


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:45:38 AM EST

Re: I hope its close (none / 0)

I thought so, too, until I came to fully understand the Clintons's scorched earth strategy with the Democratic brand image.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Third Place Finish Might Damage Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Damaging Headline:  "First Southern State Repudiates Hillary"

Damaging Story:  Despite campaigning in South Carolina dozens of times over the course of 2007, racking up major political endorsements in the state, pumping her message into the state through staff and an official campaign office for months, non-stop campaigning in the state by former President Bill Clinton over the past week, Hillary Clinton placed a disapppointing third in South Carolina behind Illinois Senator Barack Obama and former Senator John Edwards.

Hillary Clinton lost in every demographic group in this, the first southern primary, excepting white women over the age of 45. Her figures among men in this southern state were particularly worrisome with less than 28% of them giving her the nod.

Most troubling for Hillary Clinton was her terrible performance with African American voters who, throughout all of 2007, were thought to have an affinity for her. Considerable time and money had been spent by Hillary's campaign to woo African American voters in South Carolina.  But such efforts, it seems, were in vein, resulting in stark failure. According to exit polls, Hillary Clinton was the choice of a miniscule 18% of the African Americans who voted in South Carolina.

Hillary's disappointing third place showing in South Carolina mirrors her disappointing third place showing in Iowa a few weeks earlier.  Midwesterners and Southerners, it seems, find Hillary Clinton lacking, twice now making her their third choice.  

Next up, Florida, a state with a large Hispanic population and plenty of northeastern and New York transplants. The Florida primary will essentially be a beauty contest, with not a single delegate being awarded, but it nevertheless, promises to be much more favorable ground for Hillary Clinton.  

For the time being, however, the Midwest and the South seem to speaking with one voice: Barack Obama and John Edwards.  In the Midwest and the South, Hillary Clinton has yet to climb out of the basement.
 


by Demo37 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:18:31 AM EST

Obama/Edwards in '08! (none / 0)

The media would then say that Hillary can't win in the Midwest, Redstates, and the South.

That will be the narrative.  The media would go crazy!


by puma on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 02:13:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama/Edwards in '08! (none / 0)

You are ever the hopeful puma.


by kristoph on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 02:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Demo you're believeing your own propaganda. (none / 0)

Clinton is going to carry Florida which will get a lot of coverage and she'll win 16-20 of the super Tuesday primaries. Obama's range is 2-5. And Obama's wins where they occur will be crossover primaries. If this happens he should drop out.  


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

If there is a God, yes.  I've had it with the Entity.  
  I don't know how this is going to shake out, but I have BIG problems with the Clintons
by moondancer on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:35:14 AM EST

No god and we know you don't like Clinton (none / 0)

Because you've been telling us for months.


by ottovbvs on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

If Clinton comes in 3rd, it may be representative of  a "sick of Hill and Bill" trend nationally. In general people I talk to, especially after the debate, are beginning to tire of the Clinton soap opera or they feel that Bill and Hillary attacking Obama is not a fair fight.


Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton, Bush?.... WTF
by rbrianj on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:49:35 AM EST

Woot! Woot! I hope this happens! (none / 0)

I will be the happiest gal on Saturday if Obama 1st, Edwards 2nd, and Hillary a distant third.

Boy would the media go ape shit!!!!!


by puma on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 02:11:08 AM EST

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)


Not a buyer here.  Zogby has been an outlier on Clinton support, for some reason.

Plus, she's coming back to SC to campaign today and tomorrow.  Let's see what that does.


by killjoy on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 03:13:18 AM EST

Is Bill going to take away her spotlight? (none / 0)

Seeing Bill hogging up all the media makes one think that is Bill really running for a 3rd term?


by puma on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 04:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

"Zogby has been an outlier on Clinton support, for some reason."

This is a such a common complaint on blogs (by substituting whatever pollster or candidate is topical to the commenter).

That's why I rely on professional pollsters like on Pollster.com to accurately analyze polls.

Like this analysis of pollster bias in Iowa:
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/pollster_variation_in_iowa.php

My reading of this analysis is that ARG is overestimating McCain heavily, and Clinton somewhat (and underestimating Obama somewhat) and that there is no other evidence for a pollster having a measurable bias towards or against any Candidate.


by TheWinch on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)


Hmmm.  Polls seem to be going the direction I was saying....
by killjoy on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 07:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Could Edwards Catch Clinton In South Carolina? (none / 0)

People always look backward.  yet, the election is in the future, and only on 1 day.  3 day averages are meaningless.  It only matters for 1 day: saturday.

I expect Hillary to gain up to 31 percent by saturday, and then surge 8 points on turnout, and other factors to a victory.

Edwards will fade slightly, and Obama will gain slightly.

The race is going to end saturday night.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 08:35:11 AM EST

Zogby is a charlatan (none / 0)

This may very well be happening, but I would not trust Zogby at all.

Wait for some REAL evidence.


by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 08:40:22 AM EST

I'm checking Zogby (none / 0)

with other pollsters and common sense.

Right now he is being honest.  If he swerves into his fairytale land, I'll know.

For instance, he's right Obama had a big lead on 1/21.

Rasmussen had it at 43 - 28.  It was the "King" bounce.  It will/is fading.

Hillary is in the state for the rest of the week.  She parked some of her votes with Edwards for a few days, and now Bill and Hill will continue to rip black votes from Obama.

I honestly think they are going in for the kill in S.C.  I thought they'd give a pass. But I think the race is over within 48 hours.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 08:45:46 AM EST

Edwards could win. So could Hillary. (none / 0)

Either way, it helps her.
The polls in SC are unreliable because they fail to account for:
potential high number of women for Hillary
potential high number of republicans crossing over to our primaries. traditionally, they voted Ewards (70% of his voters in 2004 primaries), but they may also go to Obama because Bush gave the signal
"

Caldwell said he called Bush to inform him of his decision to support Obama and that the president was "OK" with it, adding that the minister's presidential choice would not affect their relationship."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/t x/5470598.html


by Robbedvoter on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:39:27 AM EST

Hillary's strategy? (none / 0)

As a progressive who views Clinton as a closet corporate Republican, and an Edwards supporter now hoping for Obama, I still expect Hillary to win the nomination.  Tragically, for us the Democratic Party.  

It'll be joyous for me if Hill goes down to Edwards, but she still has the machine and the money and the shamelessness to spin it her way and dominate the next round.

By the way, have you seen Dick Morris's recent analysis of her SC strategy?  Remember that he was the Clintons' chief strategist in '96, now estranged from them, a jerk, and a Republican. But he does know his Hill & Bill....
http://www.vote.com/magazine/columns/dic kmorris/column60532666.phtml


by Garret on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:41:24 AM EST

Re: Hillary's strategy? (none / 0)

"Obama has done everything he possibly could to keep race out of this election."  Remember not to believe a word Dick Morris says.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 11:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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