Experience Schmexperience

Four years ago, it might be said, Iowa caucus-goers went with their heads and abandoned their hearts, choosing experience and their perception of electability in John Kerry over the more inspiring messages of John Edwards or Howard Dean. One day out from the 2008 caucus, if the DMR and Strategic Vision polls are accurate, caucus-goers appear poised to repent for that decision and choose the unite and change message of Barack Obama over the more practical experience message of Hillary Clinton.

I confess that I had been expecting experience to rise on the list of caucus-goers' priorities as caucusing became less theoretical and closer to a reality; I figured people would end up thinking more about bread and butter issues and even the war and foreign threats (especially after the Bhutto assassination) as caucusing approached rather than the less tangible message of change that Obama offers. So far, that prediction does not appear to be bearing out.

From the Strategic Vision poll out yesterday in which Obama increased his lead over Clinton by a net 4% and Clinton dropped to a statistically insignificant 3rd place:

"Obama increased his lead and would appear to have some momentum going into the final full day of the race while Edwards appears poised that with his superior organization that he could still eke out a narrow victory," said Johnson.  "Clinton, surprisingly in light of events in Pakistan, lost support with a clear majority of Democrats expressing a desire for change over experience. [...]

When Democratic voters were asked what they most looked for in a presidential candidate, charisma, experience, or ideology, 34% selected ideology; 33% selected charisma; 20% selected experience; and 13% were undecided.

"The problem for Clinton in this question is that the number of Democrats favoring experience continues to decline with recent events in Pakistan failing to change this," said Johnson.

This follows the analysis of the DMR poll, which of course showed Obama with a 7% lead over Clinton:

Thirty percent of the poll's respondents said a candidate's ability to bring about change is the most important, followed by 27 percent who said their priority is choosing a candidate who will be the most successful in unifying the country.

Asked which candidate would do the best on these themes, caucusgoers most commonly name Obama. The first-term U.S. senator has argued in the closing weeks of the campaign that his newness to Washington, D.C., would help him bridge a politically divided nation and improve its standing overseas.

Having the experience and competence to lead, which has been the crux of Clinton's closing argument, was seen as the most important to 18 percent of caucusgoers, with Clinton as the candidate most commonly rated best on this trait.

Clinton had made the decision in the closing couple weeks of the campaign to play up her role in the Clinton White House and to run on her experience, both foreign and domestic, a message that sometimes manifested in a fairly fear-mongery "vote Clinton or else" message coming from surrogates such as Bill Clinton and Evan Bayh. They made the calculation that experience could kill two birds with one stone: both make the case for Clinton as the best president and as the best candidate against the Republicans in the fall.

So if Iowa does choose Obama tomorrow night and reject Clinton's experience as electability frame, will that mean Iowa voters have suddenly repudiated their tendency toward the electable? Hardly. Rather, it will simply be a rejection of the Clinton definition of electability. I thought this was an interesting observation by Douglas Burns in his Iowa Independent piece "Why Barack Obama Will Win The Iowa Caucuses:"

Obama will cobble together western Iowa counties with ivory towered college towns and eastern cities within the shadow of his Illinois. What's more, while he is running a tight race with U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton and former U.S. Sen. John Edwards with traditional voters, Obama will pull ahead with new people, not just the young, but the never-before caucus-goers. I see their faces in the crowds. [...]

Here's another reason Obama will do well in western Iowa (and win the whole thing): Democrats listen to their Republican friends and family. They know who has the best shot against the Republicans in a general election -- an instinct a recent Zogby Poll bears out by showing Obama beating all GOP presidential candidates.

I've talked politics with more Republicans and Independents in the past ten days over the holidays than I ever do in three months in my normal life and the message is frustratingly clear: "I can never vote for Hillary Clinton." The added message from the Independents in my very unscientific survey is a deep enthusiasm for Barack Obama. This can't help but start to impact Democrats' sense of who is electable and who isn't and may indeed drive voters to support Obama over Clinton tomorrow night.



Display:


Re: Experience Schmexperience (2.00 / 2)

"I've talked politics with more Republicans and Independents in the past ten days over the holidays than I ever do in three months in my normal life and the message is frustratingly clear: "I can never vote for Hillary Clinton." The added message from the Independents in my very unscientific survey is a deep enthusiasm for Barack Obama."

Welcome to the land of the obvious. Nice to have you here at last! ;-)


by Callimaco on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:06:35 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (2.00 / 1)

Yes.  What is amazing is that so many progressives Dems seem to totally misconstue Obama candidacy:

He is someone whose life choices demonstrate a deep and abiding commitment to progressive values. At the same time, he has figured out a way to present those ideas in a way that is appealing to indies and moderate Repubs. Rather than rejoicing that we have found a leader who can build the party and build a constituency for change, we have droves of Dems attacking Obama as a sellout.  

Obama is the best thing to happen to Dems for a generation. The irony that so many can't recognize this fact is palpable.


by upper left on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

I completely agree with you. I know very many people who have told me they could never vote for Hillary and they are the very people we need to win!

Why push the Hillary rock up the hill? This is what I just can't understand.

I am not saying I don't like Hillary enough to vote for her but rather that many people do not like her and no amount of "The Hillary I know" websites can change this fact.

Even if Hillary somehow eked out a victory - its possible- it would be a pyrrhic victory. She would have no mandate and right off the bat half hte country would be against her. We need a leadership mandate.


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And John Edwards ... (none / 0)

isn't campaigning for a leadership mandate?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

The DMR poll suggests that there a suprising amount of democrats who are content with letting others make their decisions for them, independants or republicans. No wonder our party is in the shape it's in.

If Clinton doesn't win Iowa I'll be pulling for Edwards to beat out Obama there. If we can't have a moderate lets at least have a REAL progressive.


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:08:21 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (2.00 / 1)

Obama isn't pure. But he's not a centrist. People are confusing his rhetoric (kumbaya) with actually ideology.

I strongly believe that both Edwards and Obama can accomplish progressive reform with different strategies.


by mcdave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

no Obama is a fake who attacks progressives who have fought longer and harder for the issues he claims to have cared about for 5 mins


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Cared about for 5 minutes? I hope you're not an Edwards supporter. Edwards was clearly to the right of both Clinton and Obama when comparing roll call votes in the Senate. Obama has been progressive in the Senate and as a state senator. Edwards used his law degree to make millions as a trial lawyer, Obama to be a community organizer in a rough neighborhood. Edwards ran as a Clinton Democrat in 2004 and voted for the Iraq War. Who's been fighting for progressives longer?


by AC4508 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

I too heard an aweful lot of "Anybody but Hillary". But you know what? Those same people were saying "Anybody but Kerry" four years ago.  


by Cleveland John on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:09:01 PM EST

Re: Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

and really they mean anybody but Hillary as long as they are a republican.


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

Exactly.


by Cleveland John on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

Are you from the South? I was surprised to learn that southerners are not alone in their hatred of Hillary. Yes, it's true. Many are Hillary haters to the core of their being. They are not the same bunch of people who voted for Kerry. They are the ones who voted for Bush. That's the reason for saying that Hillary can't win.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

I think he's talking about the primaries. And I live in a deep red district and the hatred is equal among all the Dem candidates. They all motivate the GOP, some more some less.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:38:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody but ...... (none / 0)

Yeah, you're right. These southern Dems weren't the "anyone but Kerry" Dems. The Dean Dems were those guys, no? I have to get out of this house. Today is one of the few "cold" days that we get in Florida.

For the record, I hate Hillary for her war vote.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

It is too early for this diary! Let us wait and see how people actually vote in Iowa!


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:09:44 PM EST

Obama = Lieberman (2.00 / 1)

Obama is Lieberman all over again, except this time with Iowan Independents and Republicans.


by BigBoyBlue on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:12:27 PM EST

Re: Obama = Lieberman (none / 0)

I guess. Ideologically, he's very progressive, according to tons of scores from liberal interest groups.

Rhetorically, he's non-partisan though...it's interesting to see people confuse the two.


by mcdave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama = Lieberman (none / 0)

Obama was one of a very few that endorsed Lieberman.


by del on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Careful, there... (none / 0)

From Wikipedia:

Endorsements

For Lieberman

Individuals

   * Civil rights movement leader U.S. Rep. John Lewis, a Congressman from Georgia, endorsed Lieberman for both the Democratic primary and the general election.[42]

   * Republican Congressman Christopher Shays.[43]

   * Senator Barbara Boxer campaigned for Lieberman on July 24, 2006.[44]

   * Former President and fellow Yale University alum Bill Clinton campaigned for Lieberman at an event held in Waterbury on July 24, but continued to stress that he, like his wife, would support whichever candidate won the primary.[45][46]

   * Senators Joe Biden, Barack Obama,Daniel Inouye and Ken Salazar campaigned for Lieberman on July 31.[citation needed]

   * Senators Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Mark Pryor, Frank Lautenberg, Evan Bayh, Tom Carper, Dick Durbin, Diane Feinstein, Ken Salazar, Ron Wyden and Ben Nelson all endorsed Lieberman in the primary. However, Senators Mark Pryor, Ken Salazar, Tom Carper, and Ben Nelson were the only Democratic Senators who endorsed Lieberman's independent run.[47]

   * Former Georgia Senator Max Cleland, a wounded Vietnam War veteran, campaigned with Lieberman at a rally in East Haven on August 6.

(Emphasis added.)

Quite a few prominent individuals endorsed Lieberman, including Obama and two Clintons. None of those three endorsed his independent run. So, to say Obama was "one of a very few" is wrong.

If you're an Edwards supporter, this could just be spin on your part. If you're a Clinton supporter, it's just plain lying.

Sorry to ruin your reality with facts, but it had to be done.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful, there... (none / 0)

no just a mistake, sorry


by del on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Apparently Obama brought Brandon Routh to Iowa to campaign with him, the guy who played Superman. Why does Obama keep relying on star power over substance . He does realize that in Washington no one really cares about how popular you are to the media.


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:13:50 PM EST

Troll Rate This (none / 0)

I forget who you support, but Edwards will be closing with John Mellencamp. That's stronger than dirt.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Washington doesn't care about the media???  What?  Ever get caught between a politician & a TV camera?

Wasn't Christopher Reeve Superman?  I still remember his speech at the Democratic Convention in 1996 about the importance of stem cell research.


by howardpark on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Politicians care about their own media not someone else's. My point is that republicans aren't going to go "oh your popular let me abandon my beliefs and politics"


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Hey Todd , before you start jubilating , may be you should calm down and just wait until tomorrow.

Iowa is just the first state in a long electoral process and it hasn't even cast a vote yet.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:15:03 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

If any honest voter really wants to decide based on experience, the choice would be clear, Bill Richardson.  Voters decide on many factors, however, and experience is somewhere in the middle of the pack of reasons.


by howardpark on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:20:44 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Howard,

Richardson actually said that Musharaff should resign, which would have created a power vacuum, and then said Cheney of all people should go to Pakistan to help calm the situation there. The guy with the most experience, who has been talking about Pakistan the longest and has the best ideas for the Middle East is Biden, not Richardson.


by Norm91 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Yeah, down with experience, up with "judgement" and charisma. Too bad we didn't have Ryan Seacrest or some VJ on MTV run for President. They have about as much relevant experience (community organizer and illinois state poll rate Zero on experience to run for presient)as Obama. If we want something completely new, how about changing the constitution and let that pretty english lady who mc'd "so you think you can dance" and the new years eve bash. I watch "so you can think you can dan" for two years. She did have opinions and I like her judgement. She handles herself very well and I could watch her for hours. I would love to have a beer with her.


by maxstar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:25:19 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (2.00 / 1)

Umm ... hate to point out something, you know, OBJECTIVE and data based (i.e. reality) but John Edwards consistently does best against any and all Republicans. Much better than Obama, who actually often does worse than Clinton, conventional wisdom notwithstanding (there are a certain number of Republican women who will vote for Clinton because of the historic nature of her candidacy, so she actually does just fine.)

Obama has a lead in the polls ONLY because he's outspent both Clinton and Edwards by vast amounts (nearly $10 million on TV alone, which is just obscene). I'm willing to bet anything that a bigger chunk of his polled "voters" are soft, and either won't show up or will vote for someone else.

We'll soon see!


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:27:38 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! For using objective information. It seems to be severely lacking lately.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You should look at latest Pew Poll. (none / 0)

Clinton at 46%. In every national poll she's from low forties to high forties. Obama is at 26% and in no national poll is he out of the mid twenties which is where he started. Todd is getting carried away by the emotion and over hyping of IA.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:30:59 PM EST

Re: You should look at latest Pew Poll. (none / 0)

he must be talking to Edwards and Obama supporters if all he is hearing is "I hate Hillary."  I know for a fact that there are lots of people in Iowa who  will caucus for Hillary.  But a lot of them are the older people (who are more likely to be caucus goers) that Todd would be less likely to encounter due to his age, so maybe that's why he isn't hearing from them.


by Mike Pridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Newsflash: Republicans won't vote for Barry (none / 0)

In a general election Republicans won't vote for Barry or Edwards either.  It is laughable when these two say they can pull significant Republican votes.

Republicans don't have one elected African American governor, Senator, or Congressman, and that in my opinion, is not an accident on their party.   Look at the Republican Party and its stances on voting rights and affirmative action.

So what makes you think Republicans will vote for Obama?  It is more likely they will do to him what the did to Harold Ford and try to turn his race against him.

Edwards maybe? Not likely.  Kerry got toasted by double digits in Edwards home state.  If Edwards could at least make his home state close how do you expect him to win red state in a general ... with a liberal message on taxes and spending to boot.

Face R.E.A.L.I.T.Y.  Republicans and Democrats are split at this time in history and their isn't a ton of common ground.  Republicans also are more entrenced in their ideology.  While Democrats can support a pro lifer like Bob Casey, many Republicans simply would never vote for someone who is pro choice.  Obama or Edwards isn't going to change that.  They are not 'God.'

To a wide swath of Republicans come general election time the Democrat - no matter who it is - will be a liberal, weak on defense, a gay lover, anti-Christian, war on Christmas loving, tax raising, big spending, baby killer.  We are not going to win this 45% of the electorate and I don't care to try.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:34:09 PM EST

Re: Newsflash: Republicans won't vote for Barry (none / 0)

Well, I have conservative and independent friends who say they like Obama.  But I'm convinced they say that for the same reason they say they like Chris Rock.

Listen, no one will be happier than me if Obama is actually able to bring home these votes and accomplish a Democratic realignment.  I'm skeptical until I actually see it, though.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Virginia (none / 0)

I dunno. Virginia elected a black Lt. Gov in 1985 and then a black governor in 1989. I figure...that's a whole generation of racists dying off. I think he'll be fine - I don't think his race will be an overwhelming factor amongst actual swing voters. Will some GOP crazies hate him? Yeah...but who really cares? They hate Clinton too. And probably Edwards as well...


by mcdave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Virginia (none / 0)

Virgina is actually a budding purple state. Its one of the best know secrets in politics.

Though I think the GOP's treatment of Harold Ford in Tennesee is one recent memory that comes to mind


by world dictator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Here's another reason Obama will do well in western Iowa (and win the whole thing): Democrats listen to their Republican friends and family. They know who has the best shot against the Republicans in a general election -- an instinct a recent Zogby Poll bears out by showing Obama beating all GOP presidential candidates.
"

Yea that Zogby poll - that was interactive, and not scientific...

Wow - if the Dems in Iowa are hinging on "the recent Zogby Poll" i dont want them to be dealt such a strong hand in the process.

its too bad Iowa Independent is pushing that poll, just like the MSM


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:35:07 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

I feel like the "change vs. experience" narrative is so simpleminded.  Many Hillary supporters believe she represents change.  Many Obama supporters believe he has the right kind of experience.

No one wakes up in the morning, says "what I really want is change," and then tries to pick the candidate who best represents change.  Rather, they decide which candidate they like, and try to come up with the words to justify it after the fact.  Many times, those words are going to be the buzzwords the candidates themselves adopt for their campaigns.

If I like Edwards the best, and he sells himself as a fighter, then maybe I'll tell some pollster that I'm interested in voting for the best fighter.  But that hardly means I go into every election looking for the most pugilistic candidate to support; in a different year I might like a different person for different reasons.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:37:37 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Ha! Steve - I agree 100% with your comment, but unfortunately, it is that simple for most voters. Most voters aren't politicos like bloggers. They choose a candidate using a gut feeling or relatively meaningless categories like "change" or "experience".


by mcdave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

What I'm saying is that it starts with the gut feeling and the label is an after-the-fact attempt to describe the gut feeling.  I don't disagree at all that it's a very unsophisticated thought process for most voters, because most people don't have the time or interest to think very deeply about politics.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Totally Agree (none / 0)

Most people, even educated voters, go more on their guts than brains.  I believe studies showed that a lot of Bush voters didn't actually predict his positions on issues correctly, they thought they were voting for a totally different person than they were.

This is why I worry about my point below about Obama attracting independent and GOP voters with rightwing talking points.  I know Obama's policy positions are actually fairly progressive and comparable to Edwards and Clinton.  But do the independent voters know that?  Or are they attracted to his rightwing talking points?  If it's the latter, I think he could have real problems keeping them in the GE when he will be painted as a liberal and running against people who actually believe many of the things he says.  


by BDB on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

I see this post is taking a lot of heat from the "anyone but Obama" people.  I've run into a lot of them over the last few days.  So much so that I am beginning to wonder if there is a sampling error in some of these polls that show him surging.  

But even so, it seems that overall the polls, as addressed in the post by Jonathon, do not bear out your "anyone but Hillary" observations.  She is right there with Obama when the polls are averaged out.  And so is Edwards.  

I think the reality is that turnout will decide this.  While the Obama people have been trumpeting their turnout machine, my sources in Iowa tell me  that the Clinton camp has been quietly building their own turnout monster that will rival or beat anything that Obama or Edwards has.


by Mike Pridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:38:02 PM EST

My opinion (none / 0)

is that when Hillary was the front runner people felt like she was being shoved down their throat. Now that Obama is being shoved down people's throats there's a little revolt going on. And the fact that people have looked at Obama and seen him lacking so there's probably going to be an anybody but Obama vote contingent if he wins IA.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iowans Suck at Predicting Electability (none / 0)

We all do because a year is a long time and folks who look electable now might not look electable after a long, brutal campaign.  That's true of all of the Democratic candidates.

One of the interesting things about Obama's shot at Gore and Kerry as divisive is that Iowans picked them and at least part of the calculus, especially for Kerry, was the very one Obama is asking them to make for him - that he's electable and less devisive.  And yet, by his very criticism, he basically admits that Iowans were wrong about who was the most electable in 2000 and 2004.  So my question is why should I trust them to be right in 2008?

Again, that's not a reason to vote against Obama, we don't know about any of the candidates, but it's not a reason to vote for him either.

I also think Obama would be more electable had he not run using rightwing talking points.  If you hear him talk about the crisis around social security, how mandates require people to buy insurance they can't afford (even though he has mandates), the evil of union influence and trial lawyers, I totally understand why as an independent or GOP voter you'd support him against Clinton and Edwards.  What I can't figure out is why you'd support him against McCain?  A lot of the language Obama has used to woo independents and GOPers is simply going to be unavailable to him in the Fall because real Republicans will be using it.


by BDB on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:56:09 PM EST

Obama just doesn't get it. He is naive. (none / 0)

He is naive at best.  He is a cynical pol, with a carefully scripted (and wrong) message, pandering to an audience at worst.

This diary cuts right to the heart of Obama's problem.  He doesn't understand the importance of this race.  It is a must read:

http://words-of-power.blogspot.com/2008/ 01/campaign-08-update-open-letter-to-sen .html


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:56:59 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

And you guys in California elected WHOM as your governor?  Be careful before you cast that first stone!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:04:31 PM EST

interesting post (none / 0)

Having been here for two day, I am begining to think obama is real. I came here thinking he was going to collapse - but what I am seeing is that he is he has more yard signs thab the ther candidates. I think the dmr poll is crap - but obama may win anyway.m


by fladem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:05:55 PM EST

his campaign has invested a lot (none / 0)

to win the yard sign wars. One of my friends has an Obama sign. She lives on a busy street and they called her house to ask if it was ok to drop off a sign there. She's not even sure she will caucus for Obama.

I spoke with someone today who is involved with the Clinton campaign and knows the south side of Des Moines well. There are a lot of Democratic delegates there. The whole south side political establishment is with Clinton, so I would imagine she'll do best in those neighborhoods. My acquaintance said Clinton and Edwards are both strong on the south side, as is Biden because there are a lot of Catholics. She said Obama is going to do poorly there.

Obama will do well in the prosperous western suburbs of Des Moines, but I think he will be behind Clinton and Edwards in the older, more middle-class suburban neighborhoods such as mine.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

I've talked politics with more Republicans and Independents in the past ten days over the holidays than I ever do in three months in my normal life and the message is frustratingly clear: "I can never vote for Hillary Clinton." The added message from the Independents in my very unscientific survey is a deep enthusiasm for Barack Obama.

sigh No offense, but what relevence does this have? It's a little like the 'everyone I talk to wants to finally see a black/woman/etc president'.

Hillary Clinton's unfavourable numbers have nothing to do with electability. Of all of the candidates, she consistantly polls best across the electoral college in terms of the majority of the votes. Is that a reason to vote for her? No, but the fact that a dozen heavily populated southern states that are going to vote Republican don't like her has no bearing on the race. It's a deliberately misleading statistic, designed to impress the uninformed.

All of the top three candidates have serious strengths and weaknesses. All of them have been shown beating the frontrunning GOP nominee on a fairly consistent basis. Polling in Iowa is notoriously protean. Making assumptions on these factors is simply naive.

Obama is very well positioned right now, especially considering the errors he made early on in the campaign. His inexperience in general elections concerns me greatly, but his natural charisma can make up for that.

Edwards is likely the most balanced candidate, with a strong organization and a commanding presence. Unfortunately, the stigma of the 'already ran' drags on him. A combination of grassroots support with an experienced national team could easily provide him a strong base in the general.

Clinton is the organization veteren, with more experience in the glare of negative politics than all the other candidates combined. That makes her vulnerable to being positioned into the shrill-threatening label by the media, that causes damage with the independents. However, she's also beaten every GOP attack sent her way over fifteen years, which speaks well to her endurance.

This are three excellent candidates, and any of them are entirely legitimate choices. The 'when they get a close look' narrative is self-congratulatory fluff, undeserving of attention at best, and recycling GOP talking points at worst.


by dexf on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:25:34 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

Ya know folks
there are simple facts
Edwards and Obama combined demonstrate a shift.
Postings like anyone but Hillery are not Dems but folks just passing through...

There is a reason Rove bailed...
He and Chaney got what they wanted...they
helped themselves and others become really...really rich. They know it's over.

Before we can move forward..
there is the criminal past on so many levels..
Although I believe we need a fighter like Edwards to do this...
Any of the three will lead a Democratic Landslide in 2008...
Whomever is the nominee will have earned it.
Picture any of the three against any of the Republicans in the national debate...
The Primaries will not destroy our Party.
It will destroy the Republican Party.

"If you plant ice,
you're gonna harvest wind.".


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:53:46 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (2.00 / 0)

GO Obama. To me it wasn't experience. If I wanted experience I would be voting for Biden, Dodd or Richardson (who are all really great people). I wanted a candidate who is likely to bring our country together. I like the fact that Obama was a ACORN community organizer who worked for the poor. I have done it and it is not easy work at all. It means he was on the front lines of fighting the war on poverty. I love the fact that he taught constitutional law. To me that means he has an understanding and respect for our nations law for example, the Death Penalty Law in Illinois. Most importantly to me is that he is not a part of the Washington establishment that supported this horrible war. As a recent veteran I have seen my friends come home mentally and physically disabled from this war. It broke my heart to see one of my friends come home age 28 with a little girl paralyzed. Some may knock him for wanting to bring our country together. The naysayers say they want revenge. Why do you want revenge when this country has so many problems that need to be addressed especially for the least of these? I am sorry I want a President who realizes in order to get things done we cannot just beat republicans. We must allow them into the process of decision making so they too would have an investment with the success of any program or policy purposed.   Just my opinion. Cheers and Happy New Year..


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:10:13 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

"we cannot just beat republicans. We must allow them into the process of decision making..."

I totally disagree. We have let them do decision-making only to find ourselves with an America no one can recognize. Republicans need to be defeated flat-out and not allowed to be deciding anything until they figure out that we are not living in Nazi Germany.


http://jimmyqnyc.blogspot.com
by jsedlock on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

I am sorry that you feel this way but not all Republicans are bad just like not all Democrats are good. I think both Democrats and Republicans (not the parties but people) all want the same things we just go about it in difference ways. Obama's method is consensus building. He takes common sense problems and tries to find common sense solutions with consensus. We can agree to disagree.


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh, No (none / 0)


You're wrong about 2004, because Kerry was indeed the candidate with the widest appeal and credibility.

For all that you perceive(d) as inspiring, thing is simply that Democrats who run as classical moderate ends/means Democrats had their run in 1998-2001 and are inviable ("naive", "centrist", "bipartisan", "triangulating", "DLC") since.  Edwards was that candidate in '04, Obama is manouvering himself there.

Democrats running as Leftists, toned in whatever way, haven't been viable widely enough since the Seventies or maybe early Eighties.  That was the basis of the Dean 'implosion' in '04.  Now Edwards is mostly there, going for the "anger" and against corporations and personally conservative social issues, and all that.

That leaves the liberal space as the one that matters.  That's where Kerry won the bulk of his votes in '04, and that's where Clinton's core support is now.  She very much started with Kerry's 38% baseline that emerged in Iowa in '04.  She secured herself there early and has done the difficult inclusiveness thing to another ~40% of the political spectrum except for the Leftist/post-Dean crowd.  Real liberals have range, not dogma, that's how and why it works.

The Undecideds have mostly gone back and forth between Clinton and Undecided in the past six months.  They've flirted with Obama too, and some are pushed to support of him by the great efforts made.  But most of them seem to be basically liberal and I think will go to Clinton along the way as Obama hits his limitations.  Which he has tried to keep as fuzzy and undefined as possible.

Yes, I think this is ultimately a Clinton/anti-Clinton election.  And the anti-Clinton part is built on diffuse fear and loathing.  (It always is when real liberals stand a chance of getting into office after a long conservative period.)  But it is diffuse enough among Democrats that the anti-Clinton feeling isn't rallying around one candidate, and probably won't unless she makes it happen with some true great blunder.   So she should win the nomination.

As for the Republican anti-Clinton bit, their own platform and agenda is a minority one.  It was dominant for nearly 40 years, it is expended, and it continues to expend itself.  What remains for them is to oppose The Next Thing.  But as what they stand for hollows out they lose conviction.  It's a terrible raging as they lose faith, their god fails, and power drains away.  Fervent orthodoxy being the sign of doubt sinking in and needing to evade it and suppress it to the extent possible, thwarted will behaving badly, and all that.

In 2000 in New York, the anti-Hillaryism was at its most fervent shortly before the primary elections.  After the primaries she wasn't a theoretical choice and ideological problem anymore, she was a reality.  And the political center is pragmatic and practical at bottom.  The raging against Hillary got tuned out by the center in New York State once she became nominee.  It became an affair of embittered Republicans ranting for each others' benefit and a some bitter thwarted Democrats draining their resentment at the ego violation involved.  (The former impresses Edwards supporters, the latter seems quite a motivation among Obama supporters.)

The anti-Hillary vote bubble in NY in 2000 shrank at the beginning of the General election campaign.  In the end every single "undecided" vote in polling went her way, and the election result mirrored the generic partisan split in the state then.  The country now splits partisan and thinking-wise just as NY did eight years ago.   (NY's conservative Italian Catholic Republicans played the role the Southern Religious Right does nationally.)

IOW, the anti-Hillary thing is not deeply believed by the political center and after some indulgence gets discarded.  For partisan Republicans, the anti-Hillary thing does get them to vote against her initially, but it and Hillary's positioning/listening to moderate R's creates a moderate/hardcore split.  And the moderates end up going over to her some time after the election.


by killjoy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:25:13 PM EST

Re: Experience Schmexperience (none / 0)

This is the most honest and accurate Todd Beaton piece I've read on this blog. If we need the type of same-old same-old Washington "experience" Hillary has been touting, we would support Joe Biden and not Hillary. Her so-called experience stance just would not hold water. Their argument that she would be ready on day one is as phony as Mitt's life-long hunter claim. If you haven't held the job before, you can not claim to be ready on day one. Obama made a convincing argument early on that the only Clinton who'd be ready on day one is Bill and NOT Hill. I am a Liberal but a smart one. I know we need the 20% or so middle America, the independence, to win. If Kos, Jerome, etc... are so bent on attacking Obama on the silliest of things, please look at his voting record. His is even more progressive than Ed. Kennedy, let alone John Edwards or Hillary's. Look at his voting record before launching silly attacks. Now they start to belittle Dennis Kuccinich, the most Liberal of them all for supporting Obama. Kos and Jerome etc... need to get a grip and stop their silly attacks on Obama. I'm a Liberal and I don't like these folks attacking Obama. Please think what's best for America and not just what's best for the Liberals only.


Not another Bush or Clinton.
by Barackulikahurricane on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:35:23 PM EST


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