No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S

I talked about this for Iowa -- in the The 4% Iowa Party Hack Lie -- and it's just as bad or even worse in Nevada. How about a little right to make your voting choice in private, away from bosses' (including union bosses') ears and eyes?! It's damn obvious caucuses, which violate the principle of a secret ballot, should be illegal, but they aren't in this devolving to pre-democracy. Here's Las Vegas Sun columnist John Ralston (emphasis added throughout diary):

New York: We have heard a lot about unions pressuring their members (or not pressuring their members) to caucus for Obama. Do you think this is going to play a significant part in tomorrow's caucus? And as a follow up, if union members are largely Latino and minority, do think these demographics trump the union expectations?

Jon Ralston: The answer to your last question may be the key to the election. That is, will women and Hispanics in the Culinary -- Hispanics make up about 40 percent of the union members -- who might lean toward Hillary Clinton stick with her, or out of union solidarity, go with Obama? If it were a secret ballot, I think the Culinary's impact would be diminished. But these folks will be standing with other union members and openly stating their preference. How many will go against the union's wishes?

Here's Culinary political director Pilar Weiss: "We just made our endorsement yesterday, we've got plenty of time in the grand scheme of the caucus, and we think in the end our members will act like a union."

More from Vegas on putting union solidarity above the right to vote freely:

Can the Culinary hold its membership to its Obama endorsement (and turn it out) by acknowledging members might support Clinton but urging them to put union loyalty above their candidate affinity?

The "It's the union above all else" pitch began Wednesday when Secretary-Treasurer D. Taylor announced the Obama endorsement. He praised all the candidates but made it clear that his members value union solidarity above all.

Here's more from Ralston on the amazing Nevada caucus:

Nevada: What if any verification process will be put in place to validate the casino workers as being legal U.S. residents at the nine at-large caucus locations?

Jon Ralston: None. No ID required. All they have to do is sign a statement saying they are legit under penalty of perjury. Pretty loose.

Las Vegas: The only instructions I've been able to find say that the caucus centers open at 11 a.m. and register at 11:30 a.m., but there is no statement about how long the process will last ... is this two hours or eight hours, and if you work and only can stay an hour or two, does your attendance make a difference?

Jon Ralston: It should only take an hour or so, they say. Done before 1:30, they say. We shall see.



Display:


Whine whine whine all the day long (1.50 / 2)

A whiner is a person who, 2 minutes before something starts, talks about fairness.  That's not about fairness. That's about partisan advantage, and about whining, bitching, moaning and otherwise poisoning the environment.  You can also call the person a bitcher.  Bitch, bitch, bitch.

The trick goes like this:

  1. You complain about a process ahead of time because your candidate has done badly in this environment in the past

  2. If she loses, it's because the process was unfair.

  3. If she wins, she has prevailed against unfair odds.

When you see through this cheesy trick, you realize that the whiner is attempting to win regardless of outcome.  If she loses she wins, if she wins she wins.  Of course for many of us, she's a loser from the beginning.

Had this truly been unacceptable, the caucuses would have been eliminated in Iowa years ago.  The FACT is that the method is not perfect, but is favored by some because certain types of candidates have an advantage.  Other primaries are done with secret ballot, and that's also good.

It's just so ANNOYING to have these Hillary whiners whining about everything.  If Hillary wins, things are fair.  If Hillary loses, it's always because the process is unfair.

I got over this kind of crap in 3rd grade, myself. The caucuses have their problems, but I suggest that these Hillary whiners get rid of them for 2012.  I can confidently predict that they will do nothing of the sort, since all they care about is whining, bitching, kvetching, moaning and complaining, and never actually accomplishing anything.


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 01:52:27 PM EST

I predict a few zero's for this (none / 0)

comment and they will be well deserved.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whine whine whine all the day long (none / 0)

Dat a dumb guy.


by robert ethan on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whine whine whine all the day long (none / 0)

on your 'last minute' criticism, my Iowa diary (referred to in sentence one) was posted December 7, 2007. Sadly, you have anything substantive to say about the denial of a secret ballot in our "democracy."


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gosh, you sure got in there early (none / 0)

The Iowa caucuses have been going since, gee, maybe 1972.  Maybe earlier.

Bitch, whine, moan.  Just don't try to pretend that you did it in time.  Because then you might have to admit that HIllary lost because she's a loser that many are very concerned about instead of the process.

Of course, Nevada has had their caucuses also for a long time.  The state has had them scheduled for at least 2 years.  Again, you're bitching, but way late.

So, nope, you didn't bitch about it early enough.  You are still way late.


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What will Nevada turnout be, 1%, 2%? (none / 0)

Amazing! But I only caught on to the incredibly low percentage turnout at the Iowa caucus when the Daily Howler (see below) talked about it in early December. You NEVER read the turnout figures or predictions in percentage terms (what will it be, 1-2% of registered voters) in the mainstream press.

The anti-democracy of caucuses is interesting. Interested in talking about it, and in killing off the bad idea?

Daily Howler reference: http://dailyhowler.com/dh120607.shtml


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 03:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

I guess Jon Ralston never met the same HISPANIC WOMEN I have. One thing you CANNOT do is INTIMIDATE them. Believe me.


by robert ethan on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:13:56 PM EST

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

When you can get them fired, you can intimidate them.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

I think there are two concerns.  One is intimidation in the caucus room, in other words, the concern that you'll get in trouble if you don't caucus in the same group as your union steward or supervisor.  That's kind of an argument against having people caucus with their co-workers in general (as opposed to your neighbors, where there's presumably not the same degree of pressure).

The other concern, that isn't talked about as much, is the fact that the union has some degree of control over who gets off work to caucus.  There are all sorts of stories out there, who knows how many are true, that people are being told they can only get off work if they sign the card for Obama.  The same people who were OUTRAGED! at the potential for disenfranchisement from the lawsuit seem strangely uninterested in finding out whether this sort of disenfranchisement is taking place.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

I would be interested, so far, I have seen no evidence of this.  I don't understand how the union would be able to prevent anyone from going to the cacus.  Other than someone the union magically became managment by placing the word "boss" after the word "union"

The LV Sun sums up their investigation.  

Is the union pushing their program hard, yes.  When I was a union steward at UCLA, I can tell you I had a lot of heated arguments with fellow members before a strike, but I can tell you I never had any power over them.


by labor nrrd on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 03:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

Union steward for UCLA ? vs. union steward for Las Vegas hotel workers. A strike vote versus a vote for President. Apples and oranges.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 03:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

How can the union get them fired?  


by labor nrrd on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:46:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ha-ha-ha (none / 0)

That's what unions DO, of course. Get their members fired.

< / snark>


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Secret Ballot Caucuses R B S (none / 0)

Wow, naivete showing. Here's a current headline:

GM To Offer Buyouts To 46,000 More UAW Members - 01/18/08

General Motors is expecting low auto sales this year and in anticipation 46,000 workers will be eligible for early retirement buyouts. If the trend continues, the company has not been shy about suggesting capacity could be cut resulting in more plant closures. The company is finalizing details with the United Auto Workers.

So that's on who gets retired early and who does not. Specifically on 'getting fired' with the help of a union, here are more relevant headlines:

Fired Catfish Workers Start Their Own Union

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1 295/is_5_63/ai_54468919

After Wildcat Strike Against Concessions, Freightliner Workers Fight for Their Jobs

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1454

Corrupt Officials Scatter, Workers Say, "Not Wanted"

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2001fall/74 3scatter.htm

And the following is relevant because many Hispanic workers' understandings of the power of union officials is derived from experience and stories from Mexico:

Mexico faces job drain of its own

http://www.thehawkeye.com/Story/Mexico_j ob_drain_010208

When Jose Enrique Morales, 35, was hired at the Johnson Controls plant in Puebla six years ago, he was unfamiliar with such details. He thought his life had turned around. He was working for a foreign company in the auto industry, which is considered a step up by most Mexican workers. And he liked training new employees.

Morales worked at a large, modern-looking plant, one of 90 parts supply firms that serve a Volkswagen facility nearby.

But after a few years at Johnson Controls, Morales noticed that his pay and benefits were barely growing. Yet he did not speak up. "I am not a man of words. I am a patient man," he explained.

Then last June he went to a union meeting where he and others raised some questions: Why hadn't they seen their contract? Why do they rarely see union officials? Why haven't they received better pay increases?

These issues were on their minds because they had been talking about forming an independent union at the plant.

That day his colleagues joked that he would be fired soon.

A month later that's exactly what happened to Morales and five others who spoke up. Morales and some of the fired workers say they were told by a company official that they had been let go at the union's request. . . .



We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 04:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is amazing to me is that (none / 0)

NO ONE actually picked up on a serious problem with the caucuses.  Yep, there is a serious problem, and one which makes them quite problematic.

They're on a Saturday.

Now, here's a quiz for all the Hillary-bots: Why, children, is that a problem?  Hands?  Anyone?  Oh, come on, one of you fine, upstanding Hillary-bots must understand why stuff on Saturday is a problem.

Yep, it's the Sabbath.  For orthodox jews and jehovah's witnesses.  That is a serious problem, but not a single Hillary-bot was able to come up with the actual serious problem with the timing.


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:41:12 PM EST

Re: What is amazing to me is that (none / 0)

I've seen that discussed here many times.  I read an interesting article about it in the LV Sun earlier this week.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm spending less time here (none / 0)

I guess I missed them.

I am amazed that the Nevada Democratic Party did put them on Saturday.  THe Democratic party is probably 10% Jewish.  There are no Jews in NV?  It's especially problematic that the orthodox have movement restrictions.  Perhaps there are rabbinical dispensations for this caucus sabbath.


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm spending less time here (none / 0)

I believe there are roughly 70,000 Jews in Nevada.

I read an article in the LV Sun the other day where they talked with some of the rabbis.  The general attitude seemed to be that lots of people get screwed by the caucus every year and can't attend, this year it's our turn, oh well!  This might be a sign of a good attitude or it might just be that we've never had a serious problem with the franchise in this country and thus have less of an axe to grind.

Of course, it's only a fraction of Jews who are observant and can't caucus on Saturday.  The article said that at least some of them are trying to convince the less observant Jews to caucus in their place so their vote will still count.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is amazing to me is that (none / 0)

JW's can't vote though, right?


by labor nrrd on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gosh, you're right!! (none / 0)

I'd forgotten that.  Jews vote tho, and they are a big component of our democratic party.


by dataguy on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 03:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why are u calling people 'Hillary-bots'? (none / 0)

Everything you 'know' about Clinton and her supportres you from the right-wing media.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 04:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cacuses are a huge problem (2.00 / 1)

I agree totally.  It does present problems for people who are working at the time, deployed military, homebound, etc, etc.  Secret ballot is also a great idea.  I would love if supporters of all candidates would lead a push against this system and towards one that encourages as many people to vote as possible.


by labor nrrd on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:49:44 PM EST

Now with the positive comment out of the way (none / 0)

What are you talking about - Union bosses.  Do you have any union experience.  The elected leadership of unions (elected by the membership) are not the boss of their members.  They do not have the ability to hire/fire/effectivley recommend discipline.  UNITE HERE is not a company union (which are illegal).

It is amazing how all the union love that existed here when Obama made his comments about "special interests" [which was a terrible comment.  While he didn't mention unions, it is long been a right wing talking point that any group that represents Americans, are special interests) have now begun talking about "union bosses," "Thugs", and that is what you expect from labor unions.

There was a criticism on Bill Clinton for urging members to go against the union endorsement.  Some Obama supporters cried foul, but were rightfull rejected.  Of course Clinton is going to ask people to vote for Hillary.  However, it is not nefarious for the union to campaign for their choice.  Union solidarity is not a dirty word.  

The union is working its political program, they are urging members to vote in the way that the union decided was best.  They can not force them to, explain to me how they could?  No, they can't fire them.  If the decided to stop representing them, unfair labor practice charges could be filed.


by labor nrrd on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 02:57:44 PM EST

Re: Now with the positive comment out of the way (none / 0)

Yes, I have experience with teachers unions. Unions are a great thing, despite widespread and very real corruption.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 04:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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