...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot

From CNN's exit poll out of Michigan:

Vote if All Candidates Were On Ballot

Clinton 46
Obama 35
Edwards 12
Kucinich 2

These numbers hew pretty closely to national polls. The current Real Clear Politics 4-poll (post-NH) average:

Clinton 43
Obama 32.6
Edwards 12.4

Because Obama and Clinton each won the first two contests, momentum has been neutralized as a factor in subsequent states, making on the ground campaigning all the more important. Obama does far better in places where he's able to spend a good amount of time and go up on the air. Where he's not able to campaign, such as in Michigan, Clinton has a built-in advantage. This is what makes Obama's prospects in Florida (where he is prohibited from campaigning) and on February 5th (where he will have to split his time and resources) such an uphill climb. His best (only?) hope is to re-inject momentum into the calculus with wins in Nevada and South Carolina moving into Florida and the February 5th states. Nevada isn't as much of a must-win for Obama as South Carolina is, since SC is the later contest, but a win in NV will only help boost him in SC one week later and stem any advantage Clinton could gain from a win on Saturday. Of course, what's been interesting to see over the past 7 days is how quickly momentum fades this year -- perhaps due to more access to information and greater access to candidates? Remarkably, no candidate has yet had a back-to-back win (not counting Michigan as a true win for Clinton...,) so it's unclear, even with these two wins, whether Obama can overcome Clinton for what's starting to look like Clinton's nomination to lose, but it's beginning to look like it's the only shot he has.



Display:


Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Obama must really be kicking himself over the decision to take his name off the ballot.  He probably thought that without the opportunity to campaign, there was no way he'd be within striking distance.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:30:28 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

It says something about Obama that only voters that know him vote for him.  It also says something about Clinton that only voters that know Obama vote for him.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:32:39 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (1.00 / 1)

If Barack Obama wanted to make his case to the people of Florida then he should have kept his name on the ballot rather than disenfranchising them.


by world dictator on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:39:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

We've had this argument over and over again... big-media markets ought not to be placed early in the caucus system.  What makes Florida so special?  What if Texas, New York, and California decided to move up also?

The ironic part of it all is that Florida would have had a lot of say had it been on Feb. 5th, they just go greedy.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

what make Iowa so special?


by world dictator on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Nothing... they are a bunch of spoiled little bitches just like New Hampshire.  But they were able to set the table years ago to get into this position and to break would take real balls by the DNC and RNC.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:20:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

haha


by world dictator on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 10:58:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

But Florida didn't go early...I agree they messed up by going outside of the NATIONAL AGREEMENT that was very carefully brokered.  But they went after four smaller states and especially allowed the retail politics in Iowa and New Hampshire to still have their traditional impact.

For the record, I don't necessarily think that Iowa and New Hampshire should always have that coveted spot but I am a strong believer that the early contests should be in small states where voters can meet the candidates face to face.  Even though I don't live in a state like that I think it is an important part of our Democracy. Sure, I won't have Obama and Clinton in my living room, but I am heartened that they still have to go and sit in someone's living room and answer their questions.  It's good for them and good for us, I think.  I just view it is as another aspect of our "representative" democracy, except my representatives aren't politicians but fellow citizens.


by rcipw on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

why did you give me a 1 Bigboy Blue? He's not on the ballot. Geez


by world dictator on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 10:59:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

You say "it's remarkable how quicky momentum fades this year" as though that were disturbing. I think it is marvelous that none of the states contested to this point in the primary race are voting according to plan, or allowing themselves to be influenced by "momentum". Otherwise, you may as well nominate the winner of Iowa, and save everyone's time and money. Refreshingly the results also seem immune to polls and pundits. Wouldn't it be a marvelous election, devoid of undue influence from pollsters and media hacks?


by robert ethan on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:33:37 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Nope, I don't find it disturbing at all, quite the contrary


by Todd Beeton on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (2.00 / 1)

I think a big reason is we ACTUALLY have 3 very strong candidates in this election.  Especially when compared to the GOP.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

saying something is remarkable is in no way related to saying you find it disturbing... I don't know where you got that from.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 04:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

wouldn't it be ironic if the only Obama could win the nomination would be to follow through on the disenfranchisement of millions of African Americans in Michigan.


by world dictator on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:38:36 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Wouldn't be ironic if the only way Hillary won is to say the rules don't apply to her supporters and act selfishly instead of in the best interest of the party... and the best interest is to nip this move up crap immediately.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:22:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

If it's so bad what Hillary did in Michigan, aren't the others equally selfish in their Florida actions?


by frankies on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 06:04:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Whoever you are supporting for President there is no cogent argument that disenfranchising the primary voters in Michigan and Florida is "good for the party."  It is a disaster for the party and, come November, this whole notion that we will "teach them a lesson" will give us two lessons taught and one White House lost.


by rcipw on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The DNC has asked to (none / 0)

be a added on the side of the NV Dem Party as a defendant... siding against the law-suit brought by the Clintons when they didn't receive the Culinary Workers endorsement.

http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=229

In Other News, Hillary Lost convincingly the youth and black vote to no one.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:42:00 AM EST

Re: The DNC has asked to (none / 0)

actually not enough Dems came out for them to seat their delegates... there is a state minimum.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

a state mimimum? (none / 0)

What??? Please cite a source for that,


by markjay on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC has asked to (none / 0)

Funny your for that but think its ok for Hillary to break her agreement in NV AND disenfranchise those voters.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:23:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

uncommitted (none / 0)

Actually, there was a campaign - door to door and air time to vote uncommitted for Obama.


by NYMARJ on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why not rename this site? (none / 0)

Since MyDD has become a franchise for the Hillary campaign, why not just rename the site to "Clinton Camelot 2.0"? Or we could just call it "Dynasty Rebooted"  Terrah, terrah, terrah.. Hill will protect us all.


by cmpnwtr on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:56:35 AM EST

Re: Why not rename this site? (none / 0)

haha!


by bluedavid on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (none / 0)

Shut the hell up. People weren't complaining when Edwards supporters flocked to Rec supportive diaries of their candidate or daily hit diaries on Clinton.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (2.00 / 2)

The cheesy attacks continue.  Now Todd Beeton is the target.  One thing is for sure, no matter where the nomination goes:   Never before have I seen a group of supporters for ANYTHING with such glass chins, such disregard for logic, such uninformed reasoning, as many, many Obama supporters (not all, just way too many.)   That whole shtick is worn, tired and ultimately makes one wonder if Obama would have any chance in a potential GE season at all, given how his supporters take virtually everything out of context, level charges against anyone who dares not fully embrace the guy or write about realistic primary scenarios that have it that Obama just might have a tough go at it.  


by georgep on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:06:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (none / 0)

RIDICULOUS!  In the first place because you suggest that anything that takes place in the rarefied world of the progressive blogoshpere could have any reflection on the gen. public's voting preferences in the GE and secondly because you know deep in your little clinton-loving heart that the shrillest thinnest skinned and most persistently self-victimizing bloggers on this site are at least 70% clintonistas!


by bluedavid on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:26:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (2.00 / 1)

Laughable.  Look at the reactions to either candidate's losses, for starters.  Only Obama supporters ran the entire gamut of excuse-making from DIEBOLD FRAUD to latent racism amongst NH voters to stupid women falling prey en masse to a tearful Clinton, bla bla bla.   Come on, you know deep inside that this stuff is much more pronounced with your side of the coin.  Look at the way anyone (like Todd here, Jerome, before they left Matt Stoller and Chris Bowers) is attacked as a Clinton stooge for not exactly singing Obama's praises.  Latest example:  Review mattmfm's diary, in which he actually claims that it borders on RACISM that Clinton referred to the debate as the "Black/Brown debate," when indeed that was the actual name that was given to the debate by the organizers.  


by georgep on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (1.00 / 2)

THen you should look at many of your fellow Hillary supporters... They make the Obama supporters seem like they have Iron Chins, Socratic Logic Skills, Informed Reasoning, MUCH MUCH MUCH BRAVER and not whiny little poll obsessive cry babies.  

You know the week after Iowa when certain cowardly little whiners wouldn't show up to post here (and again My Kudos to Yellowdem, Mollie, Seymour etc who had the courage to show up after Hillary's Iowa loss... I may disagree with you but I give you props) was a really nice week.  Too bad those cowardly little whiners won't go back into hiding. Oh well.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not rename this site? (none / 0)

You know, unlike that week where you seemed to suddenly post tons of posts daily, you have been extremely rarified this entire week.  Funny how this stuff works.  Suddenly you have much less time for this place again?  I wonder what made that happen?  Oh, wait, I know.  


by georgep on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly (2.00 / 4)

How can anyone tell anything from the voters in Michigan.  I'm a Clinton person, but I don't give any credence to the polls with good info for her like this or the ones with bad like the African American vote.

As I just posted in a comment at OpenLeft, I think folks extrapolate from these results at their peril.  The turnout was very low.  Given the circumstances, you'd have to be an incredibly committed voter to bother going out into the snow to vote for Clinton over uncommitted?  Or uncommitted over Clinton?  And there were no GOTV efforts by the candidates (unless you count Conyers and other Obama/Edwards supporters pushing uncommitted).  As for African Americans, I fully expect Obama to carry them, but it also seems to me that those most angry at Clinton might have more of a reason to show up than other African American voters.  Or maybe not.  Who knows?

If we've learned nothing else from Iowa and NH, it's that turnout matters.  Who shows up is what is determining this race and we've been getting huge turnouts in contested states.  Trying to take a state where almost no one voted and extrapolating that to states with advertising, mailings, GOTV efforts, and campaign stops seems dicey at best.

I think the only thing this primary means is that if Michigan gets delegates, Clinton is going to get the majority of them but the remainder will be up for grabs since uncommitted got more than 15%.

Believe me, I want to know who the nominee is going to be as much as anyone, and speculation and poll parsing can be fun, but we're just going to have to wait this year until folks actually vote.  Frustrating isn't it?


by BDB on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:01:50 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Remarkably, no candidate has yet had a back-to-back win (not counting Michigan as a true win for Clinton...,)

Not counting Michigan, there have only been two contests!

so it's unclear, even with these two wins, whether Obama can overcome Clinton for what's starting to look like Clinton's nomination to lose,

I would think that the stalemate (though uneven) between the latter two remains until there are no significant other candidates left.  And then support for one or the other will break down.

Anecdotally and in some polling analyses, some Edwards support seems to be bleeding over to Clinton and Obama in the past week or so.  In a week or two we might see a consensus emerge that the race has become a two person contest.


by killjoy on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:18:14 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

In this election season, its fairly stupid to make any kind of assumptions.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:24:37 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Probably... In hindsight, it was a mistake...even if I don't think it will mean anything.  Frankly, he should have gotten them to pull out of both... the media really neutralized michigan on the Dem sides.  All the stories are about Romney's win.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:31:22 AM EST

Shouldn't it tell us something (none / 0)

Shouldn't it tell us something that 35% of the people who voted would have voted for Obama? That if all the candidates were on the ballot Hillary couldn't have topped her national poll average by a significant amount.

Obama's supporters had absolutely no reason to vote today. They knew he wouldn't be on the ballot and Democratic turnout was low tonight. That 10% of people who voted for Hillary didn't want to is bad news for her. 55% of the vote in a basically uncontested election is not good for her.

I'd agree that Hillary is still the most likely nominee and that Obama really needs to both NV and SC, but as an Obama supporter I'm heartened that Hillary couldn't outperform her national average in the exit poll, among people who showed up to vote for her.


by jjbman1121 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:55:22 AM EST

Re: Shouldn't it tell us something (2.00 / 1)

You can be heartened all you want, but anyone that wins with 55% of the vote is the one that walks away smiling.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 02:10:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

huh? (none / 0)

I know you really wanted to think Michigan was going to be important but, come on.  If you think there was s ingle fist pump in the hillary camp over this victory you're delusional.  And though they might explain it away, they very well might be worried about the exit poll situation -- though the most reasonable response is probably that michigan exit polls, actual polls is almost entirely meaningless.  People who had no idea that there wouldn't be a full slate of candidates, people who vote habitually like a religious duty, and people with strong and strange commitments voted today -- not a strong bunch to draw any conclusions from.

Do you really think this is any kind of victory for Hillary?  Just watch the press coverage and count the delegates if you don't believe me.


by responsible on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 03:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shouldn't it tell us something (none / 0)

Winning only 55% in an uncontested election is not much of a win. Also, the numbers regarding vote totals if everyone had been on the ballot did not factor in how many more people would have voted if Obama and Edwards had been on the ballot.

Pulling out of the state was definitely a mistake but there is no way to spin this as a meaningful victory for the Clinton camp.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 04:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

uncommitted (none / 0)

MSNBC broke down the 40 uncommitted and I forgot what the break down of those numbers would have been  - but was surprised that 3% of the uncommitted would have voted for Clinton.  Why didn't they just vote for her - or was I misunderstanding the statistics.  And do you remember what the breakdwon of the numbers were?


by NYMARJ on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:23:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Yea, sounds like something I might have tried to tell the Obama strategists here about it being a huge mistake...


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 02:09:31 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Actually, I think the Michigan results are more indicative of the way the race will go than Iowa or New Hampshire. Remember, the candidates had about a year to prepare their cases in Iowa (for 1% of the voters) and spent about half their overall budget prior to the Iowa vote. Then New Hamphire followed hot on Iowa's heels, with basically the same information, for another 1% or so of the final delegates.

In Michigan there was no on hands campaigning, and little media effort. The will be much closer to the situation in the remaining states since the candidates have just a few months, and perhaps $50 million max, to spend for the remaining 95% of the voters and delegates. The longer the race drags on, the more inclined people will be to settle back into their original inclinations, barring some dramatic collapse by one of the candidates.


by robert ethan on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 02:14:03 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

There was one difference, two of the top three contestants weren't on the ballot.

It's been conclusively demonstrated that the order of the names on the ballots can effect outcome.  Does anyone think the absence of names might have made a difference?

Oh wait there's another difference, most of the voters probably knew that two of the names wouldn't be on the ballot, AND that the delegates wouldn't count.  I wonder if that might effect who voted?

These results are next to meaningless.  And I mean that for the pro-obama conclusions being drawn about  the exit polls as well as Hillary's victory.


by responsible on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 03:48:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is up there with Wapo 44% voted against (2.00 / 1)

Guys exit polls are bunk. Just ask John Kerry. It's clear from the exit poll though that the electors knew who the candidates were and if they wanted to vote against her they could. In fact about 40% voted uncommitted, Clinton got 56% of the vote. What's being missed here is that MI is a much more typical primary situ than IA or NH and therefore a much more accurate barometer of what we're likely to see in FL and on super Tuesday. This vote tells me she's going to pull just north of 50% in most of them.    


by ottovbvs on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 07:26:19 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

If the antiHillary (Obama, Edwards, kucinich)still tops 50%, it is evident that Hillary has a long way to go, and that way is not likely to be up as more and more people learn what it is she stands for. Clintonism may have worked in the 90s, but today, by proposing to continue a soft Reagan-Bush agenda will not work.

You can fool some of the people all of the time....and so forth.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 08:19:11 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Meh.

Obama is espousing an policy to the right of the Bill Clinton's DNC.

Which I find rather ironic, the DNC haters  supporting the most DNC candidate of all.

Clinton is appearing more progressive, more responsive to the criticism leveled at her, something we want in a President, so I have to wonder WHO the Obama supporters really are, you know?

I wonder what, or who, really drives them?


by Marsha1 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

I think that the Michigan results of Clinton vs. uncommitted is a more accurate take of Clinton vs. "not Clinton."  This shows really how many people vote for Clinton right now and how many choose something else.  You can't add up the supporters of a dynamic field and claim all of the Edwards, Obama, and Kucinich supporters are "anti-Clinton" votes.  It's not true and is, frankly, a disservice to all of those candidates and their supporters.

By this standard, in Michigan, Clinton did very well.

Also, I agree.  There is no reason at all to think that Obama is more progressive than Clinton.  Sure he talks a good progressive game, but what specific policies has he supported since being elected or advocated as a candidate for President that back up that good talking game?


by rcipw on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Clinton's win in Michigan is very likely a statistical anomaly, based on the absent votes of voters who would have come out for Obama and Edwards if they were on the ballot. That is probably the best reason to regard the results as erroneous.

Not everyone who would have voted for a nonHillary candidate did.

Obama is the real candidate of "change" and is definitely not Hillary and more of old time Clintonism.

In this regard, the election is all about a return to Clintonism, a Republican Lite agenda, or a new direction, back to the future, or back to our liberal-socialist roots.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 10:30:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

otto, hillary is in good shape going into Super Tuesday. Obama needs to win the next two I believe in order to garner momentum into Super Tuesday.

Hillary remains the favorite in this race.


by falcon4e on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:23:21 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

Really, the big target for Obama has to be CA.  Without CA, I don't see any path for him.  With CA, if he can limit the damages in NY and NJ and take IL and a couple others, it's still on.  To get the necessary momentum (since Clinton is currently ahead in CA), I think Obama needs to not just win but win impressively in SC.  In order to accomplish that, he may need to win NV as well, but I'm not 100% convinced.  NV's whole situation is so f-ed up that it may be easy to write off a loss as well if his SC lead isn't affected.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 09:46:04 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

A second thought here: how can the polls determine what the results would have been if all candidates were on the ballot, if a lot of voters just did not show up to vote. Since Hillary was on the ballot, one would suspect that Hillary supporters did show up and would indicate a perference for Hillary on an ideal ballot which showed all of the candidates.

The result is therefore a hypothetical result if most of the voters who showed up were Hillary supporters. Nothing more.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 10:34:36 AM EST

Re: ...If All Candidates Were On The Ballot (none / 0)

South Carolina is a big time must win for Obama. Nevada will make or break no one, unless Edwards can take a stunning upset (polls are relatively close). One super tuesday Hillary has a lock on New York, New Jersey and Arkansas. Obama has Illinios. Obama would be favored in southern states like Georgia and Alabama if he wins South Carolina, but California will still be the edge to Clinton. It's very hard for me to see Obama take that state. It must be close for him to have a chance.


by Christopher Lib on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:02:49 PM EST


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