NV caucus heats up

The lawsuit filed late yesterday by officers of the Clark County Democratic central committee against the Nevada State Democratic Party has been the talk of the blogs and the press all day as everyone tries to parse the politics of it. I know a bit about this that I'll try to explain here. Its a sordid tale, as I see it that does not reflect well on the state, the Democratic party, or the Clinton campaign.

Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign, a day after a conference call in which casino executives supporting her denounced Obama in the press for opposing gaming in the Illinois state legislature, her campaign dropped a pretty hard-hitting contrast mail piece against Obama.

The good news is that there was also a lot of actual substance being discussed on doorsteps, at least based on my experience today canvassing for Edwards.

The suit. As has been noted elsewhere, the suit challenges the at-large precincts that are scheduled to be held at 9 sites on the Strip for casino workers who will be on their shift at the time of the caucus (noon Saturday). It was brought by the Nevada State Educators Association, the statewide teachers union, and by several individuals including two officers of the Clark County Democratic party who were elected on a reform slate last summer.

While the plaintiffs have been arguing all day that this is about "fairness" and not intended to benefit any candidate, its hard not to see this as intended to benefit the Clinton campaign. As I noted yesterday, the at-large sites will only be worth between 4 and 8% of the delegates awarded on Saturday (depending on turnout at the t-large sites, delegate allocations to regular precincts being predetermined as roughly 2% of registered Dems in each precinct) -- not a huge amount but enough to make a difference in a close race.

Whatever the merits of the case (which those knowledgeable about such things tell me are very few, but in a Nevada courtroom, anything is possible), whats hard to understand is why the suit was brought now, one week before the caucus. These rules were written by a committee last summer, submitted to the DNC for approval and have been posted on the NDSP website for at least three months.

We'll find out soon enough if the suit will have any legs, but here's what I can tell you about the odd combination of people bringing the suit. The NSEA is neutral but most of its officers and top staff are supporting Clinton. It has widely been reported that three of the plaintiffs, Vicky and John Birkland and Dwayne Chesnut, were active volunteers in Dina Titus's gubernatorial campaign. Its also been reported that Vicky is supporting Clinton and Dwayne is supporting Edwards; this is true on a personal level but these are two of the only Democratic party leaders who have kept to the policy of public neutrality and have been very responsive to concerns about appearances of bias towards Clinton by the state and county parties. I don't know of the level of involvement of any of the Clinton supporters in her campaign, but I do that Dwayne has had no role in the Edwards campaign. I don't even think he's been to the office more than once, for a public event. Both of them were elected to the County party central committee over the summer as reformers and I fear they are sincere in claiming they attached their names to the suit to ensure fairness, but I fear they are being instrumentalized.

Its hard to imagine the impetus for this would come directly from anyone affiliated with the Clinton campaign, and it pains me to see Dina Titus' name linked with this. Speculation of her involvement is based upon two probably unrelated events that took place Thursday evening -- Titus was reported by the Review-Journal gossip page as having had dinner with Senator Clinton and the Birklands hosted a small dinner of activists, including several prominent Clinton backers with close ties to Titus, before a Democratic club meeting. I raise these events not to cast suspicion but because this is what is the basis of some of Jon Ralston's breathless reporting in his subscription-only email newsletter, which is in turn the basis for much of the published reporting that appeared today.

After nearly a year of effort, much of it by volunteers, its really a shame to see this effort start to sink under the weight of internal recriminations and legal challenges right as the natoin's and world's attention turns to Nevada. Its really, in my opinion, a disservice to Democratic activists that our leaders are, intentionally or not, undermining the process in this way.

As if that wasn't enough to generate some commentary, I'll tell you about a mailer that arrived from the Clinton campaign today. It contrasted Clinton's proposed middle-class tax cut with Obama's proposal to raise the cap on social security taxes -- in terms that were, to me, shocking. It referred to her proposal to "let taxpayers keep more of their own money" and Obama's "trillion-dollar tax increase on the middle class." Not only is it, to me, unclear why a Democrat would so closely replicate language used by republicans, but Bill Clinton in 1992 attacked his primary opponent (Paul Tsongas) along the same lines and offered in contrast his middle-class tax cut, then abandoned it once in office when Alan Greenspan came out against it.

The last time I saw a Democrat use an anti-tax message in a primary here, it came from County Commissioner Myrna Williams in 2006 against Chris Guinchigliani, who went on to defeat her and is currently a Clinton campaign state co-chair.

Finally, far from all this action, with the Obama and Clinton campaigns both holding events, there was an impressive turnout for the Edwards canvass. Once again, the Steelworkers did themselves proud, showing up in large numbers, and volunteer turnout and enthusiasm remained very high. Its clear that the campaign is operating on a shoestring (our policy books were left-over from Iowa), but the response remained very good. In a heavily Democratic precinct, one with a large number of Culinary union members, I saw no evidence of canvassers for either Obama or Clinton. Moreover, I was surprised that there did not seem to be a significant movement, in my small and anecdotal sample, to Obama. Clinton continues to hold the loyalty of a lot of older women and Hispanic families, but most continue to express very limited knowledge of her proposals or of the other candidates, and it remains an open question in my mind how many will turn out for the caucus. Many were either unfamiliar with the date/time/location/procedure of the caucus or told me outright they were unlikely to attend. I even offered to drive one neighbor who was solidly for Clinton, but she said no, she would have other things to do next Saturday.

Finally, its worth noting that the Ron Paul office, located on Sahara Avenue in my district, seemed to be sending out canvassers, which was pretty impressive to me.



Display:


Clinton factors in the lawsuit how? (2.00 / 1)

Show me a lwsuit brough by Clinton or her campaign.

How does the old saying go?  Put up or ....


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:25:11 AM EST

Re: Clinton factors in the lawsuit how? (none / 0)

The Clinton corportism is reknown and goes well beyond the Lincoln bedroom. No need to ask where their sentiments lie in this one.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Childish nonsense aside ... (none / 0)

Clinton factors in this how?


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:02:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton factors in the lawsuit how? (none / 0)

Late last year,  Vanity Fair magazine stated, paraphrasing, the "Lincoln  Bedroom door prize for democratic donors" was pushed upon the Clintons by the DNC, eager to reward donors, and solicit more money, using the White House.

So I give them a break, as it seems plausible.

And if the Culinary Unions had gone to Clinton, Obama would have filed suit, too, it's political gaming, within the law.

The LA Times this morning quotes union members as  being upset with the Culinary Union's shrill push to Obama, as nine caucuses will be held in the casinos, as opposed to say the airport, where other union workers, who have endorsed other candidates, work, and could partake more easily.

Seems a reasonable complaint, as the Culinary Union is stacking the deck, according to some in Vegas.


by Marsha1 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

A blurb on the suit from Vagas:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/early-l ine/2008/jan/11/whats-stake--large-caucu s-precincts/


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:34:37 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

This probably seems like a juvenile comment, however I hope a lot of people are as happy as I am that finally, a state that isn't lilly white and has a significant union population is getting significant media attention in the democratic caucus.

This caucus is physically making this state more blue as we speak, and we as a party are finally having a more significantly historical dialog as to the direction of our party.

Further, at the same time, I think this state is truly bringing this party back to its roots of working class people.  

Again, I know there is little significance to this comment however I hope others are as happy as I am that this state does have some major significance instead of Iowa and New Hampshire taking all of the credit.


"Disobedience to Tyrants is obedience to God"-- Thomas Jefferson
by HomegrownDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:51:33 AM EST

I appreciate that this is a touchy subject... (none / 0)

but do you have any sense of who is the second choice of a majority of Edwards supporters?


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:25:54 AM EST

But desmoulins does mention it. (none / 0)

What are you talking about?


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:26:38 AM EST

Re: But desmoulins does mention it. (none / 0)

The usual.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:24:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

Are people now denying that this somehow comes from the Clinton campaign?


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:15:24 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

Man, you have been providing fantastic, nuanced reports from Nevada.  Really -- off the charts good.


by ChrisR on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:20:23 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

The Clintons are ruthless and they will do what ever is necessary to win. I am hoping that Obama can counter this kind of dirty tricks offensive.


by aiko on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:56:41 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 2)

I complained about the right-wing framing of the "trillion-dollar tax increase" when Clinton said it at the debate.  Now it sounds like she's doubling down with "letting taxpayers keep more of their own money."  Way to reinforce those right-wing memes, Hillary.

On the politics of opposing casino gaming in Illinois, wouldn't that be BAD for casino executives (because their companies want to open casinos there) but GOOD for everyone else in Nevada (because the tourists from Illinois keep coming to LV, ensuring jobs and tax revenues)?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:58:28 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

On the politics of opposing casino gaming in Illinois, wouldn't that be BAD for casino executives (because their companies want to open casinos there) but GOOD for everyone else in Nevada (because the tourists from Illinois keep coming to LV, ensuring jobs and tax revenues)?

Yes but the casino executives were the ones making the claim. I don't understand the logic of having casino executives as surrogates for Clinton either.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

I don't understand the logic of having casino executives as surrogates for Clinton either.

uhh...are you from Las Vegas? Because really if you did know anything about las vegas politics you wouldn't ask a silly question like that. But i'll be charitable and assume you either misspoke or I misread this comment, Can you clarify?


by world dictator on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:45:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

We're talking about a Democratic primary where the most sought-after votes are casino workers, not casino executives. Casino workers know that competition from other states is a threat.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

This is just silly.

First of all, culinary workers/casino workers are not rabid anti-casino executive/anti casino voters. This isn't a typical union situation where the workers hate the employers. In fact, a lot of people like their jobs quite a bit. As far as employers go, casino's treat their employee's great, generally speaking. Casino executives are respected within the community because the Casino's are the lifeline of city and the state. Their word carries a lot of weight.
I say this as someone who's worked for several casino's, who has been a culinary member, and who has family that has 30 plus years as casino/culinary workers in Las Vegas.

Second, many casino executives are democrats or at least involved in democrat politics

Third, the most sought after union is the culinary union. To that extent, their votes are sought after but there are numerous demographics that are more sought out,hispanics for example. And no, not every hispanics works in a casino's.


by world dictator on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The pattern continues...... (none / 0)


The pattern of attacks, smears, and dirty tricks by the Clintons is deeply troubling.

If we want change, we need to stop supporting candiates who act like Republicans.


by upper left on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:04:34 AM EST

Clinton has nothing to do with it (none / 0)

See:

http://www.rgj.com/blogs/inside-nevada-p olitics/2008/01/rory-reid-on-caucus-laws uit.html

Hey if Obama and his people muttered this type of denial Obamamaniacs would buy it.  


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:07:49 AM EST

Re: Clinton has nothing to do with it (none / 0)

Not much "there" there to be perfectly honest.

Given the timing of the lawsuit, I think we all know the people who brought it are partial towards Clinton, or maybe Edwards, as a strategic matter.

Does that mean the Clinton campaign is behind it?  Well, the impetus and the funding for lawsuits are discoverable matters in court.  No intelligent campaign would leave fingerprints.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Teachers Union filed it (none / 0)

So it could be a peeing match for power between two unions.  The teachers, and the culinary who benefits from the caucus sites on the strip.

I think at this point is would be very very shoddy and playing fast and loose with the truth to tie Clinton to it in anyway.  

Why would the Clinton camp do it anyway?  Why risk blowback?   Why would they risk the legal ramifications?  Why make it harder for the women who clean the rooms and wait the table to get to caucus?  WHy WHy WHy?  The answer is they wouldn't take these risks, especially in state where they have to be the favorite.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Teachers Union filed it (none / 0)

Oh come on.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Teachers Union filed it (none / 0)

You come on.

Are you saying in a backroom somewhere CLintons are coordinating with unions?  That would be ILLEGIAL.   Worse are you saying they are coordingating to make it harder for the voters they covet to vote?

The ramications of such a thing ... legal and political ... leads me to believe it not something the Clinton would go near.

Besides read the political ace reporter in the ground, in the Las Vegas Sun.  He think Dina Titus (not a Clinton backer) and John Edwards supporters who are miffed they didn't get the Culinary Endorsement (they expected it) are behind it.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Teachers Union filed it (2.00 / 1)

Dp, I wrote what I did because I am in a position to provide MyDD readers better coverage than what is reported in that story. If you don't want to read my explanation, thats fine. But it is amusing that suddenly the MSM isn't so bad after all when it gets the politics of grassroots activists wrong.

Titus is Clinton's western regional chair; you embarass yourself to suggest she's not a Clinton backer.

THe only "Edwards supporter" among the plaintiffs has no connection to the camapaign and is only an "Edwards supporter" in the sense that he plans to vote for JRE.

I said in the article, but don't go back and bother reading it, that I said all the activists were being taken advantage of in this suit.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Teachers Union filed it (none / 0)

I misread Ralston' comments re: Titus.  I thought he meant Titus wasn't with Clinton, instead it is clear he meant some her people in the state are not with Clinton.

The passage from Ralston was:

"The Clinton campaign is not the only organization that stands to
benefit if a judge were to agree to the lawsuit's arguments. The
Edwards campaign, still a long shot, has some allies among the
plaintiffs, I understand, who may be Dina Titus people but are not
Hillary Clinton people. And, remember, back when the plan was written,
many thought the Culinary was going with Edwards."


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dina is a Clinton Backer (none / 0)

Take a look at her site, http://www.dinatitus.com.  It's all about Dina & Clinton.  

I can't remember if she has formally endorsed Clinton, but have heard a lot of talk that she is a supporter.  Dina is also a Super Delegate.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Teachers Union filed it (none / 0)

You seem to be shocked, SHOCKED that there is politics in politics.

Ask yourself this.  We've had the rules posted for four months and some culinary workers have talked to their employers relying upon those rules.

If HRC had won the Culinary Union endorsement, would this suit -- with these plaintiffs -- been filed?  C'mon.


by ChrisR on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton has nothing to do with it (none / 0)

yes, but will the Clinton Campaign express public disapproval of the suit.  No.  I just watched MTP and she was evading condemning the lawsuit.  More evasive non-answers.  

Even if her campaign didn't know about the lawsuit (unlikely).  She certainly is tacitly supporting it now.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

Did you read this diary at all? Someone needs to implement a new rule about trollish behavior. If you come into a diary attacking a diarist about something that's clearly in their diary that you claim is not, we should be able to troll rate you.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:36:09 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

I explained that this is untrue. Dwayne Chesnut has told people privately he's for Edwards but has not been involved in the Edwards campaign at all.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:37:47 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

I hate when people try to change the process so close to an actual election. I don't care who is doing this- it's unfair to democratic (lower "d") processes by which voters can know that the process works. Jocking just makes people think its all a game.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:39:02 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

It is also serves as a suppress the vote tactic.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

oh come on.

you are a lawyer, arent you?

read anderson v. celebrezze --


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

give me a break. this kind of post is idiotic. your response to my concern over the impact of legal wrangling  on voting is to cite a case? you can  not be serious. i dont give a shit what that case you cited says. i am discussing public perception.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

by the way, if you will notice, i am acting based on principle here. edwards is still despite being down my candidate. i don't support this. some of you need to stop being sychophants and not support something just becuase you think it will advantage ur candidate. long after clinton is gone or edwards or obama we want to have improved the system. not merely help our guy or gal win.


by bruh21 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

there were some concerns raised long before the Culinary endorsed, and some of those in the suit are not just party insiders, but county party officers and one is a state party official, too. County and state party officials suing the state party?

The Clinton campaign is not the only organization that stands to benefit if a judge were to agree to the lawsuit's arguments. The Edwards campaign, still a long shot, has some allies among the plaintiffs, I understand, who may be Dina Titus people but are not Hillary Clinton people. And, remember, back when the plan was writtenmany thought the Culinary was going with Edwards.

--From Jon Ralston's Daily Flash

(Ralston is the premier political reporter in Las Vegas)


by world dictator on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:41:50 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

I explained that he is referring to Chesnut who is not actually working for Edwards.

I will not be responding to this question any further, having done so in the original article and now twice in the comments.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

You anwsered the question poorly.

Beside's my argument isn't about Chestnut specifically just your argument that this is some Clinton scheme to disenfranchise voters after Obama won the culinary endorsement.

As Ralston pointed out many of the people in the lawsuit are COUNTY officials who dispute the disporportionate weight being given to the at large caucus sites.

Futhermore, your characterization of the timing is misleading and false. Party officals/unions,etc have been complaining about the at large precients long before the union endorsed.

If you're going to comment on "Nevada" politics you need to leave your biases at the door.


by world dictator on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:13:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

Thanks for reading.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

non responsive = inability to defend against my specific point.


by world dictator on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the clinton's have NO problem (none / 0)

Resorting to Rove-like tactics to win.

Note not only the misinformation regarding a "trillion dollar tax increase", but also the "al qaeda will attack us if you elect Barack" argument.

They have no shame.


by highgrade on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:44:47 AM EST

Re: the clinton's have NO problem (none / 0)

Did you see how fast they switched after Iowa from the "too centrist" argument to the "too liberal" argument? The whole "too centrist" line was only ever going to make sense to bloggers, and most of them understand the difference between being able to talk to different people about our issues and abandoning our issues. Now they've reverted to form, and shown who they really are - the DLC triangulation team of her husband's administration. Team NAFTA, team Workfare, team "let's have some more airstrikes on Iraq", team "crack down on immoral videogames", team "ban flag burning".


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

The Clintons are ruthless...they have proven time and time again they will do whatever it takes to defeat political enemies......anyone who doesnt see this is blind or ignorant. There entire political life together is tainted with thsi kind of behavior. This is what people want after Bush? Morons....if you vote for this woman you head must be up your behind or in the sand.....


by adbct on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:34:36 AM EST

I am very disappointed. (none / 0)

There is absolutely no discussion here of the possible merits of the case.  As Josh Marshall, who was also suspicious of this lawsuit, noted (link), others have pointed out that the way the extra caucuses were set up was not exactly what had been agreed to earlier.  And the counting of representation for these extra caucuses could exaggerate their actual vote and negatively affect the weight given to other caucus sites.  

So this suit is not a baseless attack and it isn't really coming from the Clinton campaign either.  I expect more thoroughness and evenhandedness on frontpage pieces.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:38:44 AM EST

Re: I am very disappointed. (none / 0)

ok that was worded wrong.  I've not had enough coffee yet. :/  What I should have said is that although the merits of the case are mentioned, they are not taken seriously at all and there are no links to substantive discussion of the merits.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am very disappointed. (none / 0)

I'm not a lawyer, I think I said that in the diary. I said that I was told by someone who knows the relevant law that its not going to fly, but that with a NV judge, its anyone's guess. If you have thoughts on the merits of the case, I think we'd all be grateful if you share them.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:44:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am very disappointed. (none / 0)

I'm not a lawyer either, but I feel that you should have linked to someone who disagrees with you and has discussed it, like Jeralynn over at Talk Left for example.  I did find some good insight in the comments here.  One example:

I kind of understand what the brouhaha is about. But what occurs to me is that Nevada is taking a step toward open voting, which for me is allowing people to vote almost anywhere.

The teachers should be allowed to vote in the school they work in, should it be a polling place. Or they should be able to vote at a polling close to them, instead of trying to scramble to their designated polling place.

If the state feels they can do this for an area the size of Las Vegas and it's neighboring counties, why can't they do it for the rest of the state?

That's the Solomonic decision. Let the teachers have the same open polling places as the casino workers. The upside is a potential for higher turnout for all candidates, a big step toward election reform. Sure there will be problems, but given GOP voter suppression tactics, they'll be somewhat predictable and easily remedied.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that would be more persuasive (none / 0)

if they had filed the lawsuit when the rules were first announced.

Waiting until this late date, after Obama won Iowa and got key union endorsements in NV, makes me question the motives of those filing the lawsuit.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that would be more persuasive (none / 0)

They want their votes to count equally with those who are likely to caucus for Obama.  They may not have realized earlier that there would be that much support for Obama.  But now that they do it is only fair that they should have equal voice.  So the timing thing isn't necessarily that they want to keep Obama's support from participating, only that they do not want his supporters to have an unfair advantage.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

Remember, Hillary has been polling at +20 points above Obama. At least as of the last Public Poll in Dec.  Now, it's getting down to the wire, Culinary's endorsement doesn't break the way Hillary's campaign wants it to.  48 Hrs later there is a Suit to disfranchise all of the strip casino workers.

Her own internal polling must be showing her and Obama neck & neck to pull such a desperate move.  


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that would be more persuasive (none / 0)

Blind Peter can figure out the motives of those filing the lawsuit.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't the caucus on a Saturday? (none / 0)

So what teacher would be at school anyway?


John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance
by katerina on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't the caucus on a Saturday? (none / 0)

OK I had forgotten that the caucus is on a Saturday.  But there is still the problem that the weight of the new Las Vegas area caucuses might give them a disproportionate share of the overall vote.  


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't the caucus on a Saturday? (none / 0)

The Teachers filed it on behalf of the janitors and custodians in their membership. These men and women will have to open up schools that serve as caucus locations, but not be able to caucus because, outside the at-large precincts for strip-workers, Nevadans must caucus in their prescribed-precinct. A janitor very well may not get to caucus in his/her precinct because he/she literally has to work at a caucus location outside his/her precinct.

I commend the Teachers for standing up for their members and doing so in solidarity with other workers. Caucuses disenfranchise anyone who works during the caucus time: police officers and fire fighters on duty, retail workers, nurses and doctors, etc.

I understand the rationale behind setting up the at-large precincts for strip-workers, but I can't justify it when similar accommodations are not granted to other workers.


by domma on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So your solution (none / 0)

is to disenfranchise an even larger group????


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually Mike (none / 0)

I have a few problems with this quote:

1) Caucus is on Saturday.  What teachers are in school on Saturday? They'll be at home on Saturday, the scramble will be getting them to school.

2) The rest of the state does not have 100K plus workers on the strip (or within a 3 mile radius) who Must Work on Saturday.  The next closest is Reno, with about 1.2K workers in the largest hotel.  (And before you get on that horse, most of them go on shift after 3PM, well after the Caucus. In LV it's truly 24hrs).

3) In the suit, the argument was made that it was the Custodians and Janitors who would be disenfranchised, because they have to open the schools for the Caucus.

4) Will everyone vote? No.  Will there be a greater participation opportunity for the greatest number of people in the highest population density area of the entire state?  Yes.

5) The entire goal of this was to increase participation in the Caucus, increase minority participation, and transparency at a reasonable cost. There are around 1700 Caucus locations throughout the state.  (This is a state with only 17 counties).  

Your commenter source seems misinformed.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually Mike (none / 0)

OK you are right about the Saturday part.  I had forgotten that the caucus is on a Saturday.  Did I mention at the beginning that I hadn't had enough coffee yet?  LOL  We had even discussed the Saturday part in an e-mail group but I temporarily forgot.

But there is still the problem that the weight of the new Las Vegas area caucuses might give them a disproportionate share of the overall vote.  I think everyone wants to keep voters from being disenfranchised.  But that has to be done fairly.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

again (none / 0)

no one cared about the "disproportionate" delegates issue in Iowa. Rural counties in Iowa have more delegates available than their population would normally suggest. It's only when the Clinton's perceive a weakness that it becomes an issue.


by highgrade on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: again (none / 0)

You do realize that this decision was likely not made by the Clintons?  Some of their supporters yes but there is no proof they had any input in this. I know some of her political opponents believe that this is their modus operandi, but this really steps on Hillary's original complaints about the caucuses in NV, which is that they disenfranchised lots of voters.  And the perception of dirty politics might hurt her even if she was not involved in the decision to file the suit.  If I had been advising her and this were discussed I would have told her to have nothing to do with it for the reasons I just mentioned.  And I am sure that there are some among those who actually do advise her who agree with me on that.  So she may well have not had any involvement in the decision to file the suit.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: again (none / 0)

No.  It probably wasn't them.  Just the people who will work in their administration.  Add them to the ranks of "good dem" folks from the drug, insurance and defense industries who have been so helpful to the campaign and it is looking like quite a group of people who would be operating the levers of the machine under Clinton II.


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: again (none / 0)

Just for that, I'm going to throw some facts at you:

About that "Hillary is a corporate stooge" meme

Read that if you're brave enough.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for the detailed report (2.00 / 1)

and for knocking on doors this weekend!

Good to hear the Steelworkers are out in force as well.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:45:44 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

Today's LV Sun reports that Dan Hart, a well-known local political consultant known for brass-knuckles tactics and the main consultant to the teacher's union, suggested the suit to the union. The story also quotes D Taylor, head of Culinary, that Hart had been trying to recruit other unions, presumably AFSCME which is reportedly going to join the suit.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:52:19 AM EST

interesting (2.00 / 1)

If that happens, that sets up a Culinary v. Teachers and AFSCME pissing contest in the next legislative session (state).  I wonder if the Teachers have thought that far ahead.  AFSCME can't get much passed without the support of Culinary.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

I read this diary, then re-read it again.  In regards to the lawsuit I don't see any statement contained in this diary that accomplishes what the diarist promises in the opening paragraph:  To show that this is a sordid tale that does not, amongst others, reflect well on the Clinton campaign.   If that were the case, should evidence that that is indeed so not be brought forward by the diarist somewhere later in the diary?  

The meat:  

The NSEA is neutral but most of its officers and top staff are supporting Clinton. It has widely been reported that three of the plaintiffs, Vicky and John Birkland and Dwayne Chesnut, were active volunteers in Dina Titus's gubernatorial campaign. Its also been reported that Vicky is supporting Clinton and Dwayne is supporting Edwards; this is true on a personal level but these are two of the only Democratic party leaders who have kept to the policy of public neutrality and have been very responsive to concerns about appearances of bias towards Clinton by the state and county parties. I don't know of the level of involvement of any of the Clinton supporters in her campaign, but I do that Dwayne has had no role in the Edwards campaign.

So, where is the "smoking gun" that shows us that this "sordid tale" reflects badly on the Clinton campaign?  Because some of the people in the lawsuit intend to vote for Clinton, while others intend to vote for Edwards?   If the polls we had seen out of Nevada are even close to correct, we know that Clinton has a strong advantage in Nevada.  Would that not then logically mean that you could not get 10 people in a room and have, say, about 4 people be people who intend to vote for Clinton?  Unless the diarist can show a link to the Clinton campaign, he engages in innuendo because some of the plaintiffs are known to be intended Clinton voters.   Maybe he can show us how exactly that is sordid and reflects badly on Clinton?  There seems to be no evidence at all contained in this diary, and bold statements like that (desmoulins claims that this reflects badly on the Clinton campaign, after all) require some solid proof of anything untowards going on specifically from the Clinton campaign, rather than just making assumptions sans any proof that have the appearance of partisan bias.  To that end the diarist should have probably disclosed that he works for the John Edwards campaign.


by georgep on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:55:37 AM EST

Maybe a third time? (none / 0)

You say that he should have disclosed that he was working for the Edwards, go check the third paragraph again.


by labor nrrd on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In Nevada (none / 0)

You don't need a smoking gun.  You just need to know who is loyal to whom. (which has been mentioned previously)

Back room politics at it's worst.


by NvDem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 3)

George, I don't work for the Edwards campaign; I volunteer for it. It reflects badly on the campaign in that a lot of people in town, many of whom have long harbored suspicions about the fairness of the whole processs (about which I've writtten repeatedly, and you've always been dismissive of these concerns) now see this as another sign that the process is not fair.

If you want to see a reflection of the sentiment I'm encountering, check out some of the local blogs on this.

Listen, I'm sorry if I haven't lived up to your standards. Good news for you is I'll be out all day banging on doors for Edwards so I won't be diarying.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:01:00 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (2.00 / 1)

Look, you claimed that this "sordid tale" reflects badly on the Clinton campaign.  I don't see evidence for that contained in this diary.  If it is about "fairness," and you dislike the actions of, say, a certain union, go after them, or whoever is behind it.  But how exactly is that an issue that is reflexive of the Clinton campaign?  We know that it would be illegal for the Clinton campaign to coordinate in any way with those groups, which makes it highly unlikely (given the small risk to benefit ratio) that they are involved.  And, since it is known that one of the major plaintiffs is an Edwards backer and announced Edwards voter,  would that not then reflect badly on the Edwards campaign, if plaintiff's known status of which candidate they back is the "indictment" here?  Edwards benefits from this action, if agreed to by a judge, after all.  


by georgep on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:19:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

I am very concerned about people in -well, the Democratic Party, because this looks like voter suppression. Voter suppression is evil and Republican. Anybody accepting of it isn't fit to serve in positions of responsibility in the party (or the country).

I said "looks like" because I'm wiling to hear arguments.


by inexile on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:12:15 AM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

On the face of it, it does look like voter suppression.  But there are some important details to consider.  For one, teachers are at a disadvantage under the current caucus system and need something similar to what the casino workers are getting, or a similar provision, for them to be able to get to participate too.  From the comments here:

I kind of understand what the brouhaha is about. But what occurs to me is that Nevada is taking a step toward open voting, which for me is allowing people to vote almost anywhere.

The teachers should be allowed to vote in the school they work in, should it be a polling place. Or they should be able to vote at a polling close to them, instead of trying to scramble to their designated polling place.

If the state feels they can do this for an area the size of Las Vegas and it's neighboring counties, why can't they do it for the rest of the state?

That's the Solomonic decision. Let the teachers have the same open polling places as the casino workers. The upside is a potential for higher turnout for all candidates, a big step toward election reform. Sure there will be problems, but given GOP voter suppression tactics, they'll be somewhat predictable and easily remedied.

Part of the problem is that the way the caucuses are set up disenfranchises not just casino workers but others as well.  


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:41:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not the type of union strategy I learned (none / 0)

I agree that the caucus system is a problem.  I think the teachers union trying to push for a solution that would work for them would be a good thing, but to shut down the at-large is crazy.  The union idea is to move everybody up not down.

I remember during the Teamsters/UPS strike, I had a friend who worked at either DHL or Fed-Ex, who argued that the Teamsters fight wasn't important because the people at UPS had it better.  I argued that was the reason for their shop to organize and fight for the same things; not tear down another group of workers who are fighting to improve their workplace.


by labor nrrd on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not the type of union strategy I learned (none / 0)

I'm not so sure they really want to shut down the at large system.  One could argue that what they really want to do is expand the at-large system instead of limiting it to the Las Vegas area.  


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not the type of union strategy I learned (none / 0)

Thats not what the suit asks for. It asks for an injunction to block the at large sites.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not the type of union strategy I learned (none / 0)

A lot of times a suit is filed just so discussion can be forced.  And in the end the settlement reached is different from what seemed to be the issue in the original suit.  I am not a lawyer but I have seen plenty of examples of that.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not the type of union strategy I learned (none / 0)

Sure but those discussions went on for months this summer. This suit came one week before the vote.


by desmoulins on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, isn't the caucus on a Saturday? (none / 0)

Cause if it is, what problem would teachers have attending?


John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance
by katerina on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:31:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q= diebold&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Google "Diebold" (or use the link) this isn't a good company for democracy.

I don't know if anyone has seen this story, New Hampshire is recounting the votes. About 1/5th of the ballots where not counted by machine but by hand.


 Hand count and machine count locations, when calculated statewide, show an eerie statistic:

Clinton Optical scan 91,717 52.95%
Obama Optical scan 81,495 47.05%

Clinton Hand-counted 20,889 47.05%
Obama Hand-counted 23,509 52.95%

I'm sure in the future this will appear in some conspiracy handbook, even if tampering proves true, but the complete weird switch of 'exact' percentages between those ballots hand counted and those ballots machine counted. 52.95% and 47.05%


by inexile on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:29:33 AM EST

I linked to a Boston Globe story (2.00 / 1)

on this in Breaking Blue yesterday.

Anything that allays suspicions about our elections is a good thing. I look forward to hearing the results of the full recount by hand.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

I'm sorry, we all have evidence, including a great deal produced by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., that elections have been stolen, with voting machines that have no way to determine their veracity. We have voter suppression, we have numerous states investigating and banning electronic voting machines --- what is fevered about this?

Democracy isn't anything without confidence in a verifiable voting system.

This isn't fevered, and I resent your attack on 'me' as a way to ignore and belittle a concerted effort to investigate and insure valid election systems. If you are new to the topic please do some research, if not please link to stories that prove that all described voting systems are valid.

I will not be shut up by insult.


by inexile on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:43:27 PM EST

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

you guys also have been kidnapped by little green men, right?


by StrongDem08 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NV caucus heats up (none / 0)

If this is indeed backed or prompted by the Clinton campaign, it tracks perfectly with their effort to disenfranchise young voters in Iowa.

They see a disadvantage and they respond with no qualms about the damage done to election policy - even policies that would help them in the general.

They backed off their effort to challenge young voters in Iowa, but the playbook moves are exactly the same.  And ripped right out of the republican playbook of challenging any electoral reform that increases access if it increases it for the wrong people.

Totally disgusting.


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:53:09 PM EST


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