A Tale of Two Narratives

The Sunday talk shows were dominated, of course, by Hillary Clinton who appeared on no fewer than 5 shows, several of which followed her interview with a panel discussion, during which Clinton won universally rave reviews:

Bob Scheiffer, Face The Nation:

Her remarks on North Korea, she came off pretty tough there, I was pretty surprised by that.

The New York Times's David Sanger when asked what struck him most about her interview on Face The Nation:

The strength of her answer on the Syria question.

David Brooks, This Week:

She looked presidential to me frankly...she was extremely serious and responsible, for somebody for me on the right was thinking, she's a serious person.

Cokie Roberts, This Week:

I think that she was very strong today and has been, she's waged a very smart smart disciplined campaign.

Brit Hume, Fox News Sunday:

I have to tell you, Chris, I thought she was in terrific form...I thought she handled herself very ably.

The panels' treatment of Clinton contrasted starkly with the way Giuliani's staged phone call from his wife during his speech to the NRA was received:

Mara Liasson, Fox News Sunday:

Yeesh is all I can say about it. I mean, it's so weird...I don't know what he was thinking.

Cokie Roberts, This Week:

Even with that weird phone call? That was very odd...There was a weird factor here that we really do need to address.

David Brooks, This Week:

He took a creepy moment.

Do I care that right-wing hacks think Hillary Clinton is a "serious person?" Not particularly. What's significant here though is that she drove the narrative. The pundits fell right into the trap she set, putting voice to the exact message Clinton wanted them to: she's "strong," "responsible," "presidential." She played them like a fiddle. Giuliani on the other hand would have much preferred to have the conversation focus on the notion that he made inroads with the NRA, a troublesome interest group for him, or that his phone call from his wife projected "loving husband, family man," another trouble spot. Instead, the story became that his cellphone gimmick was "creepy," "weird" and "odd."

These contrasting Sunday morning narratives give us an interesting glimpse into how a Clinton v. Giuliani head to head might be approached by the candidates (Clinton is much more skillful at manipulating the media than Giuliani) and the media (they at this point are far more skeptical of the Republican for a change) but it also appears to undermine a common pre-conception about Clinton: that her campaign is Gore and Kerry cautious centrism redux and thus destined for the same fate. While certainly Clinton has run a deliberate and in some respects cautious primary campaign (and presumably will tack even further to the center for the general election,) what doomed Gore and Kerry was the notion that they had no convictions, that they were weak. From the Sunday morning reviews Senator Clinton received, she doesn't seem to have this problem and indeed has even successfully framed her change on healthcare as a principled evolution (read: lessons learned.) I think David Brooks had a point (a stopped clock...) when he said Giuliani would not be able to be credibly labeled a flip flopper because that attack only works on someone who's perceived as weak, which, from Brooks's perspective, is not a problem Giuliani has; the same can be said for Clinton.

Whereas the progressive movement took one lesson from Gore and Kerry's losses: that to win, Democrats need to forsake the down the middle politics that have led us to losses in the past and instead stand up clearly and strongly for progressive values, Clinton appears to be banking on a slightly different lesson: that in fact running down the middle is a winning strategy as long as you convince people that your positions are sincere and come from a place of strength, not weakness, a feat Clinton appears to be accomplishing, if the reactions to her Sunday talkshow appearances are any indication.



Display:


Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Todd, you have no convictions in the centre similar to Clinton. The centre represents nothing. When are progressives going to wake-up to that fact and stop choosing these so-called centrists who keep losing us the elections?


by 12345 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:18:51 AM EST

what elections did the Clintons ever lose? (none / 0)

Oh yeah, the ones way, way back when the electorate decided that they were too far left.

The nation's voters arent lefties.  I am, they arent.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

when has hillary faced a real race? (none / 0)

she's run against lightweights and unknowns in a very, very blue state.  she hasn't exactly been tested...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

she stared down and ran out (none / 0)

Guliani in 2000 (what you think it was really about the butt cancer?) and no one dared challenge her in 06.

But I was talking about THE Clintons.  They are a TEAM.  And no one can beat THEM.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

except in 74 and 82... (none / 0)

but why quibble with facts...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

as long as you convince people that your positions are sincere and come from a place of strength, not weakness

What exactly does that mean?  That's completely abstract and subjective.  [Could you not say the exact same thing about Edwards or Obama?]  If you're going to make the case for Hillary, I think you should point to a specific instance in her past when she actually demonstrated that she had strength. Pushing meaningless platitudes and "ability to shape the media narrative" just doesn't do much for me.


by Will Graham on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:02:45 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Unfortunately sincerity is the last of Hillary's strengths, though we all seem to be awash in the perception of the contrary.  How has this been accomplished?  The two worst choices for Democrats, supporting the war in Iraq and the nomination of Hillary Clinton as the Democratic candidate for president, are connected by a thread which was spun with the abandonment of progressive values in favour of electoral credibility shortly after Bill Clinton's insurgent nomination and victory.  Why is this?  Bill Clinton was a breath of fresh air for the first few months of his administration.  What happened?  

How can any Democrat concede their better judgement to the ruthless calculus of winning at all costs?  Have we been so marginalised that this abrogation of our consciences is excused?  How can we celebrate the nomination as our candidate of the mistress of trigonometry?  The enabler, on our behalf, of the worst disaster visited on our community since the war in Viet-Nam?  What have we become?

The Civil War ended one hundred and forty-two years ago.  Why are we now vicariously fighting it in Iraq?  And where are our leaders?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:38:52 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

There are other, better, ways to win.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 2)

Wow.  Obama posters seem to be VERY desperate these days.  Democrats ARE exercising their best judgement.  In our judgement the best candidate we have had in a very long time is leading.  I find the lack of common sense in this post astounding.  Is Democracy not worth anything anymore?  Are we supposed to choose our candidate based on a few loud supporters who are clearly in the minority?   It does not work the way.  Candidates have to EARN our trust and support.  Obama has not done so.  His supporters have to come to that realization instead of constantly blaming others for their misfortune.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Are you seriously suggesting that Hillary has earned our trust?  As the best choice we could make for the future of our party?  What kind of victory is it when we have come to so resemble the people whom we oppose?  When we have so compromised our principles for the sake of power that the distinction is lost on those who suffer the consequences of our policies?

Consider this, the nomination of a candidate that voted for the war in Iraq and rhetorically supported the patently flawed notion of a global war on terrorism will inevitably confer ownership of these burdens on each and every Democrat when they loyally vote for her.  Can you think of a more ignominious end for the 'progressive' wing our party than to be subsumed in the failed policies of our adversaries?  What kind of terribly bad idea would that be?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 3)

I have no doubt that she is the best choice we could make for the future of our party, which is saying something given the strength of the Democratic field. She did not have to do much to earn my trust in this campaign because I am very familiar with her record, and I suspect the same is true for george, but his point is that she earned the trust of Democrats at large.

She spent the first six months of the campaign showing the core components of the Democratic coalition that she understands their concerns and telling them how she would address those concerns as President. That is how she earned the support of most Democrats, even on Iraq. Now she is earning the trust of independents and less strongly identified Democrats with appearances like these.

As for Iraq and a global war on terrorism there are two points. The next president will be responsible for those burdens regardless of who they are or what they say. Hillary Clinton, of the Democratic candidates, has been most clear that the Iraq war is Bush's war, and Americans almost universally agree with her. No credible candidate argues that the threat from Al Queda is not serious.

I am not sure in what sense you mean Clinton resembles the people whom we oppose, nor am I certain what principles you think she has compromised.


by souvarine on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Yes, the threat from Al Queda is serious.  But the justifications for the war in Iraq were patently absurd and the consequences have furthered the ambitions of our enemies in a way they could not have achieved without our willing and enthusiastic co-operation.  Hillary was a willing participant in this process and the lapse of judgement she demonstrated in enabling this war undermines the trust of which you speak.  What harsher lesson could we be presented with?

Conventional wisdom is as often as not an oxymoron and I believe some of her support just might be an unacknowledged amelioration of guilt on the part of those who shared her view at the time and her complicity today.  We are made of better things than this.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:14:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

Of course.  That is what this vetting process is all about, the debates, etc.   Yes, I am seriously suggesting that.  

You are way, way, WAY off base with these utterly hyperbolic statements:

What kind of victory is it when we have come to so resemble the people whom we oppose?

Can you think of a more ignominious end for the 'progressive' wing our party than to be subsumed in the failed policies of our adversaries?

Any more drama, and I'll seriously consider sending you a plane ticket so you can fly to Greece (all the way from Australia) to busy yourself recreating tragedies at the foot of the Olymp, causing babies to weep and men and women to shed many a tear.    :-)


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:28:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Thanks for the compliment George but I have already done my obeisance at the foot of the Acropolis in what was once the temple of Dionysus and the scene of Euripides', Sophocles' and Aeschylus' trilogic triumphs.  I suppose you would have guessed that Aristophanes was right up my alley too.  Cloud-Cuckoo Land, indeed.  

I thought my point about resembling those we oppose was self-evident in the comments our current, disgraced Commander-in-Chief made about Hillary's likely perpetuation, in office, of current policies in Iraq in her administration, her reticence on forswearing pre-emptive nuclear 'options' regarding Iran, her adherence to the current administrations flawed perceptions of a global war on terrorism, her intransigence regarding negotiations with the 'axis of evil' dictatorships and her perpetuation of the demonisation of Cuba and etc.  Given her vote for the AUMF and her subsequent mendacious rationalisations I didn't think this required any further explanation.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

Surely it is naive to take George Bush's word for something?


by souvarine on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Yes, it is.  And that is precisely the rationalisation Hillary herself uses to explain the context and justification for her AUMF vote.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:17:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I trust her (2.00 / 1)

Shaun, do you actually believe that I'm being insincere?

Many millions of democrats like me feel exactly the same way.

I argued throughout the nineties that the Clinton Administration was the best that we "lefties" were going to get in this era of our Nation's history.  I fought and screamed at my friends who joined Nader with the false belief that Bush=Gore in 2000.  Now EVERYONE (just about) knows what a BS line that was.

Shaun, converting that idea to Bush=Hillary is just as false, just as dangerous and just as silly.

You just wait to the general election and see how hard the GOP will work to portray her as a raging socialist and outside of the mainstream.

Then maybe, you'll come to understand that only the Clintons can bang down and defeat the GOP-MSM junta and the rest of that hyper capitalistic clan.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I trust her (none / 0)

I never said anything about abandoning the Democratic party or undermining our nominee.  And while I don't doubt your allegiance to principles I question the notion that we can't do better, and not just for the 'lefties' either, but for the whole country.  There are other, better, ways to win.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

dude, youre one guy Im never gonna question (none / 0)

and thats more of my on my sleeve "sincerity".

But I dont believe any other candidate has any chance...none...to win.

If this was easy, it wouldnt be just two progressives, the Clintons and FDR, who have succeeded in winning two terms in an entire century.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:33:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, let's repeat 2004... (none / 0)

i love how these arguments reoccur every four years...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:46:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well, the truths the truth (none / 0)

and facts are facts

even if you like to ignore what the real meaning of what "is -is"


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dude, youre one guy Im never gonna question (none / 0)

Well, basically, we only disagree that Hillary Clinton is the only nominee that could possibly win.    I don't think that is the case.  Crikies, Gore and Kerry nearly did so.  We are this close.  I don't just want to win, incidentally, I want a landslide.  50%+1 is a casino strategy, we can do so much better than that.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We threw everything at en in 04 (none / 0)

and we were running against Dumbta for crissakes and we still couldnt win!

I will be very happy with 50.1, cause that means we win....

and save the supreme and all federal courts

end the war and start no new ones

get the federal departments back (where the real power and good effects come from)

save the world (global warming)

save our wild lands (exec orders rock)

get the rest of the world to stop hating us

save our economy

save the unions from the fed labor review board

etc, etc, etc

i dont care as much about passing new laws as having hundreds of new assistant secretaries in all the depts reevaluating the old ones.

thats the ticket!


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We threw everything at en in 04 (none / 0)

I agree that any win is a good win, no doubts there.  And the benefits of taking the reins of power away from the current crop of miscreants and unmentionables is impossible to overstate for all the good reasons you mention, no argument.  I just don't accept that there is only one human being on the planet capable of leading us to that victory.  But I like your style and if she is nominated I certainly look forward to winning, though I personally believe it will be that little bit tougher.  We'll win though and I will be glad of it.

I must admit, however, I am a little worried about a purge of progressives within the party in that event.  I don't see Hillary as very sympathetic to dissent.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary WAS the leftie in the WH (none / 0)

in the old days!

But, she sure as hell aint advertising this now!

They are gonna try and paint her as frigging Emnma Goldman...and the press is gonna let them.  (theyd do the same to Obama or Edwards too - but they wouldnt be wily enough to beat it)  Look at her voting record...

And lets be honest - between you and I - she voted yes - that time - because there was no way to stop the bush led and media cheered run up to war - her vote surely couldnt have stopped it -
but -

it would most likely have ruined her chance to avoid being portrayed as a Bolshevik if she hadnt

the back street driving of today's critics non withstanding.

No one expected this admin of screwing the "post war" part of the Iraq mess so horribly.  We knew they were stupid, we just didnt know how amazingly and historically stupid they would prove themselves to be.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary WAS the leftie in the WH (none / 0)

You're right about that vote not actually turning the tide at the time, it's true.  And I admire your honesty about it, I really do.  The answer you gave on her behalf is the one reasonable justification one can make for it and I accept it is the one reason she can't admit publicly.  And I can understand her position.  The bummer is she was representing me at the time and I have an old fashioned criteria about that.

I have gotta' draw the line somewhere and for me she crossed it.  I think she makes an acceptable Senator who is strong for the party but I would really prefer she wasn't our president after that.  And I kinda' think she has it in for some of the people who did attempt to rally the anti-war movement in the party, specifically Dean and his allies.  Hence my comment about a purge if she is nominated.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she "likes" Dean and I know it! (none / 0)

In 03 -04, her roommate, her Mom, who is my friend, was rooting for Dean, do you think thay would have been possible if her daughter was against him?

as to the vote, at that particular moment in history, if she had voted no - besides all the other reasons i stated - the fireman of the nycfd - would have come and set her on fire themselves.

And if she had, what actual difference do you think it would have made>  Do you think it would have made the media reconsider their crazed jingoistic support?

Hell no, it would have just led to another round of a clinton bashing free for all.

And who would that of helped but the bushies and the gop.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 02:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she "likes" Dean and I know it! (none / 0)

Well, have a read of this and tell me how wrong I could be to have this concern.  Is this all bullsh*t?  

And as for the NYFD setting her on fire, given that you assert her vote would not have made any difference then, how much sense would it make now in retrospect?  Ya' gotta' draw the line somewhere.  I take the point you made elsewhere that her vote was a rationally judged and cautionary one related to her electoral prospects, and I accept that, but that is precisely my objection to it as well.  Leaders, by definition, must lead.  Can you imagine FDR as an isolationist?  Yet public opinion would have made him so.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 02:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she "likes" Dean and I know it! (none / 0)

personally, i completely believe in the dual chairmanship - both pre and post dean ....my only statement is i know hill likes dean - and the last i know - he liked her -

and if we all had back looking vision swed all change half our actions -

but come on...fdr was the most hard assed politico of politicos and dont forget that hillarys pol guru (besides bill) is the son of fdrs very own pol guru (ickes sr and jr) and when it comes to them - that apple didnt fall far from that tree at all..


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 03:56:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she "likes" Dean and I know it! (none / 0)

He was but he led.  We shall see, if she wins the nomination and the general I would be delighted to discuss this over a beer in retrospect.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 04:03:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

u bet (none / 0)

u in the big city?

im dc as u might guess


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 11:18:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: u bet (none / 0)

I live on the East Coast, to be sure, of Australia.  In a sub-tropical rainforest just near some of the most beautiful beaches on the planet, but I get back to NYC once in awhile so could make good on the bet sooner or later.  My shout, first round...  


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 11:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

shout! thats great! (none / 0)

i havent heard that in a long while.

Australia ?  wtf?  thats wacky!

you bastard i just realized something!

F its fing early spring to you!

Son of a...

bring some of that XXXX stuff, ya still cant get it in the states and i havent had it since it literally almost cause my grizzly death at sea one night...

sombitch spring... damn id even say nice things about nader AND rbt gibbs if i could have spring again

damn...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 01:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: shout! thats great! (none / 0)

Yeah, I am just getting ready for the first sunny days at the beach, sweeping the spiders out of the beach umbrella...  The Spangled Drongos have just arrived for Spring from New Guinea.

Hey, if you were drinking XXXX it must have been with a Queenslander, man those guys sure can drink.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 01:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i dont know - it was on a ship in harbor (none / 0)

and i was a guest in the officers club and they wouldnt let me say no...and i literally must have had 13, 15, 16 maybe more...and then when i was finally allowed to say goodnight and driving from the dock...i put my jeep in reverse instead of forward and flew backwards and banged REAL HARD AND REAL FAST against a piling at this big, giant, commercial dock and if that piling wasnt there - or if Id of been 2 feet to the left or the right - my jeep would have gone flying off the dock and fallen 60- 70 feet into the harbor and it was an icy winter night and I was mighty, mighty drunk.  

oh my how does one survive one's own idiocy?  well, I guess it's obvious - not all do...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 02:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here we go again... (none / 0)

george's opinion is the only one that's valid, and if you don't agree, you don't have good judgment or whatever hogwash he's selling at the time.

btw, this is exactly what i meant when i said that george pushes the inevitable meme.  democrats have parked their vote with hillary until someone makes the case for something different.  but if you try to make the case for something different, then you are exercising bad judgment.  george is stuck in a convenient tautology.  the question is, are voters stuck there with him...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

george does have good judgement (none / 0)

you have rage and anger.

tough to see what characteristic most American voters will go with huh?

Im betting (and literaly have)on George (and Hill).


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no rage, no anger... (none / 0)

and i realize that people read that into what i write.  oh well.  just one of the problems with the medium.


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Bill was a breath of fresh air at first? The first warning bell sounded early on, with his nomination of Zoe Baird (an insurance company executive, and a babe he knew from Renaissance Weekends) to run the Justice Dept.  She was making $500,000/yr. and paying her illegal nanny $5/hr.


by mmiddle on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

I think it is fair to say that the surprising nomination, and victorious election, of a Democratic  president was a watershed for all of us at the time.  I certainly welcomed the innovation.  If I could have looked into a crystal ball and seen the potential damage to progressivism in the party fifteen years later I would perhaps not be quite so enthusiastic.  Perhaps it is not fair to quibble over specifics given the contribution he made to our morale and infrastructure by delivering two consecutive terms of Democratic national leadership after so many lean years.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

Two questions for Rudy about the (at least) TWO times you tried this phone gag.

1) Was it really Judy on the phone either time? (the neccesities of even this hamfisted sort of stagecraft probably require the caller be watching you live.)

2) On either occasion, was the caller (whoever he/she may be) calling you from inside the hall.

I also like, in the earlier occasion of this prank, when he put the phone up to the mic so that his "Wife" could speak to the crowd, he put the wrong end of the phone up.  Simple mistake, or sly like a fox?

Let's see the phone records.


by cargocult on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:34:30 AM EST

Giuliani is a phoney (none / 0)

The media thought Al Gore's "robotic" personality was a top issue. Hillary has been called phoney for her southern accent in a speech in the South.

Will the media be fair and call Giuliani what he is, a phoney?


by kingsbridge77 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:35:56 AM EST

This is Naive Happytalk (none / 0)

Believing politicians "drive" the media is a very naive perspective. The opposite is the reality.

As an inside the beltway player, the media is so far accepting Clinton. Whether are not that is because they perceive her as the most easy to smear, denigrate, and defeat democrat in the general election remains to be seen; for now they're singing her song. Likewise, they are portraying ghouliani as the goon that he is, because they don't want him as the republican candidate. They could have just as easily done the opposite, ravaging Clinton and praising His Megalomaniac, ghouliani.

"what doomed Gore and Kerry was the notion that they had no convictions, that they were weak."

Once again you confuse the symptom for the disease. The media decided to smear Gore and Kerry so they invented and droned on about their having no convictions when nothing could be further from the truth. They just made the shit up as one of their standard ways of smearing democrats. There was plenty of reality-based evidence to portray Gore and Kerry as strong and decisive if the media had chosen to report the facts instead of choosing to undermine them.  

There is nothing more important today to the survival and recovery of America than breaking up Big Media.  


by gak on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:46:28 AM EST

Re: This is Naive Happytalk (2.00 / 4)

What you fail to realize is that both Gore and Kerry were strongly attacked by a large segment on the left (I guess you might want to call them purists) which made them appear weak from their own ranks.  The media pounced at the snub, and the GOP smartly realized the gift they received from us.  We could have seen a somewhat different dynamic (candidate-strength-wise) if purists had not gone after the frontrunners for not being exactly as they wished, instead added their considerably loud voices to the support cache (after the primaries were done with and decided.)


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is Naive Happytalk (none / 0)

Fortunately, that could never happen again.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the tragedy is (none / 0)

I dont know if he's kidding/


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:35:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is Naive Happytalk (none / 0)

I don't "fail to realize" any such thing. Democrats criticizing democrats they don't agree with on points they don't agree with should be natural and expected if we had an honest media environment. But we don't and haven't for a long time.  

The point is the media determines the spin it wants and 99 times out of 100 its anti-democratic/pro-republican. Occassionally, as noted in the post it works the opposite, but that is no great reflection on the pols.

republican politicians from reagan and earlier have been a combination of clowns, goons, dolts, and megalomaniacs. Not a single one with a smidgen of honesty, integrity, or morality. An honest press would expose them at their lies and for their ignorance, their psychotic-ness, their violence, and their anti-American ways. Instead they make the republican pig gorgeous and turn earnst democrats into pigs. It is not credible that this isn't by design. Just as it is not believable that Hillary Clinton has some magic media skill that virtually no other democrat has had for 30 years.
.


by gak on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 2)

Clinton is hardly a centrist.  On virtually every domestic issue she is a far-left progressive.   So, I am not sure that "running down the middle" is a correct theme here, Todd.   If we were to list the items one by one, you would get 95% far-left progressive items:  UHC, S-CHIP (government welfare for kids whose parents don't qualify for Medicare,) education proposals, stem-cell research, reproductive rights, etc.   In accordance with her written bills and co-sponsorship of bills govtrack rates Clinton as a "radical Democrat" (meaning far to the left) whereas Obama is considered a "rank-and-file Democrat" (still to the left but more towards the center.)  

As for the diary:  Giuliani is a sloppy campaigner, and it shows.  His messages are all over the place.   He benefits from the relative weakness of the rest of the GOP field and may very well end up the nominee, but he is clearly not as sharp or seemingly as well-prepared as Clinton on issues that may come up.  I agree that we are in a media era that gives a lot more skepticism to Republicans, which is a reflection of the damaged GOP brand.  That is not likely to change during the general election, something the Democratic party will benefit from tremendously this cycle.    


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:51:15 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

On Hillary's alleged progressivism, George, Copernicus proved the world wasn't flat in the Middle Ages and the Greeks knew it long before.  


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:55:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 3)

There is plenty of proof of Clinton's progressivism, as you well know.  I have provided plenty of it, whereas I don't see any proof from you to the contrary, all I get are platitudes and emoticons that don't amount to much.  

In fact, Obama's post-partisanship and repeated chiding of Democrats of being just as bad as Republicans is a clear sign that Obama is a slightly-left-of center politician who is sure to go straight to the middle in the GE.  That is where Todd's point about "conviction" comes in.  Obama is a true politician's politician, meaning that he does not have a lot of core conviction, which leads to Democrats feeling that he would really not stick up for us when it all comes down to it.  Why do you think Democrats can't really warm up to the guy?  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:05:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

I doubt you can use a spreadsheet to prove progressivism, though no doubt you disagree.  It has to be earned, which is a foreign concept, I admit, these days.  The occult is rarely manifest in these matters.  Take your pick, the Paris Commune, the Pullman strike, the Spanish Civil War, Joe Hill and the Wobblies, the Socialist revolutions of 1848, 1917 and the parliamentary shifts in Europe in the 30's and our own FDR.  These are the omphallus of 'progressivism.'  Tell me about it, George.  Kucinich is probably the only true 'progressive' among our current candidates, frankly, but Hillary is about as much a 'progressive' as Margaret Thatcher.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

That what progressivism is about. What you are talking about are revolutions, some of which would have been disasterous if continued.

Those are the omphallus <sic> of progressivism? They have little to do with the USA specific political movement that is "progressism" I don't know wether to laugh or cry at your statement. I probably should send you to history class.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Yeah, failed.  Like FDR, for example.  It's all connected and I would be delighted to get into a historical ramble, as you have already discerned.  But we are now debating the future, literally, of the 'progressive' wing of the party.  Let's take a specific example, the Civil Rights movement of the 60's was morally and ethically irrefutable, yet split the party, basically, and cost Democrats electoral victory almost down to the present day.

What would Hillary's position have been then given the moderate, centrist proclivities of her electorally inspired politics?  Champion of the rights of the oppressed?  Threaten to send the 101st Airborne to Alabama to force the desegregation of schools?  I wonder.  Your thoughts?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:53:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

What would Hillary's position have been then given the moderate, centrist proclivities of her electorally inspired politics?  Champion of the rights of the oppressed?  Threaten to send the 101st Airborne to Alabama to force the desegregation of schools?

Boy.  What a shameful display.  I guess next you'll claim that she would have ordered the destruction of 6 Million Jews, given the chance.  At some point even some of the haters on this site have to take a step back and realize that it is not healthy to be consumed by that feeling to such an extent.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Godwin's law, you lose (2.00 / 1)

Comparing Eisenhower's deployment of the military to support civil rights to Hitler's holocaust is an remarkably ludicrous Hitler comparison, BTW.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Yes, thanks, sorry, it was Little Rock, Arkansas.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (2.00 / 1)

If you have not noticed, Shaun is painting Clinton as the "enabler" of all that is bad and unholy.  So, he obviously is arguing in the negative, that she would have actively prevented civil rights legislation from coming to fruition, turn her back on minority plight, etc.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:48:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Perhaps I should let Shaun speak for himself, but to me it's absolutely clear that his concern is that Hillary would simply not have acted in a similar situation. I'm inclined to agree actually; Bill certainly wasn't often willing to do something unpopular because it was right. Bill isn't Hill, of course, but she also works hard at compromise and getting along with the other side. Why they do it after 15 years of constant, venomous, and unjustified hatred is beyond me but that's what they do.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Curt, whatever point Shaun is making here, it is cleary through the lense of a very committed Obama supporter.  

Now, given what we know about Obama's strong tendencies to seek bi-partisanship, not including the term DEMOCRATS or DEMOCRATIC PARTY in any of his emails, his chiding of Democrats for being a big part of the problem, etc. it is a rather interesting (and ultimately futile) twist to paint Clinton, the person who is seen as the most combative against the Republicans, the one most likely to stand up against Republicans (which has many Obama posters on here saying "Do we REALLY want that type of conflict?  We need to get along to get legislation passed")  as akin to what most (especially in the progressive blogosphere) are thinking of Obama's natural tendencies:  To be prone to cave in to Republicans, to be prone to seek bi-partisan consensus in the middle, to dismiss the progressive sphere for the most part.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Combativeness is not necessarily progressivism, George, and neither is bi-partisanship necessarily caving.  Go back and have a look at the history of the FDR administration and the voting record in the legislature at the time for some historical examples.

It's about leadership, nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come when persuasively argued by a convincing leader.  We are talking about running the country not barracking for a baseball team.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

We are going in circles apparently.

1. Clinton's record is more progressive than any of the top-tier candidates running.  Ergo, the right candidate (for progressives) is ahead.  Look at voting record, bills proposed, bills co-sponsored, personal work (i.e. on S-CHIP) that does not get official billing, etc.

Now, with that in mind what about the contention that she is "playing to progressives" and that once the GE comes around she will be doing the compromising thing, as curt contends?

No, no, no, no.   That is where point #2 comes in.

2.  Combativeness against Republicans.  We could not have a better innoculation against our nominee caving to Republicans than Clinton's history of standing up to Republicans.

That is why YOUR contention is in the clear minority, even amongst progressives, Shaun.  Because it does not seem plausible and logical.


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Leadership, George, not trigonometry.  That's the point.  Why is it when I get into these prolix and pedantic discussions with you I always seem to get the impression you are merely restating the same narrow set of stock responses leavened with deprecatory insinuations about the motives, intelligence or character of your interlocutor?  


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (2.00 / 1)

You start off with hyper-partisan outlandish claims that are not aligned with reality, then when it is pointed out how off-base you are (using facts and records) you resort to responses that are very similar to the one above.  I understand how intensely you loathe the leading candidate, but just accept that most don't feel the way you do for varying reasons, so your constant complaints (seemingly quite arrogant) about how much of a sellout the average Democrat is (because he/she has the audacity to support Clinton over others) falls mostly on deaf ears outside of a certain echo chamber that obviously exists.  

You can't even fathom valid reasons why someone would select Clinton, which is the ultimate in stubborn hanging-on to outmoded "us vs. them" thoughts.  Most of the bloggers have come around to a different type of thinking, but you don't accept that as an evolution, just more evidence that every frigging Democrat sells "their soul."  

I find these types of posts overwrought and mildly disturbing in their unbending nature.  In a way you call all of us idiots for not "seeing the light."  Perhaps a somewhat more nuanced approach would help.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

I rest my case, George, you are ascribing to me motives, behaviours and actions which you have invented not to mention putting words in my mouth.  You don't even realise you are doing it I'm guessing, or do you?

Arguing with you is not only pointless but demeaning.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

What in the above post is incorrect?  Have you not been talking about us "selling our soul" for an electoral win?  How is that not arrogant?  I surely am not selling my soul, indeed I think the best candidate is close to winning this nomination.    

If you tried for a "case," you certainly have not made one.  I don't know why you are so bitter and dismissive of fellow Democrats, as if all of us are complete idiots or, worse, sellouts.   That is not really a way to advance an argument, just a condemnation that seems very bitter and contrite.   Again I ask, what about the Democratic process and "one man/woman - one vote" don't you like?  Most of us strongly disagree with you, but that should be ok.  We are IN A DEMOCRACY.  Disagreement is good, healthy.  It is when you dismiss everybody but those who share your particular opinion in the manner you do, when you run into trouble.   Can't you just debate a point without all the dramatics of the sky falling if people don't follow your lead?  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

I searched the entire diary and can find no other occurrence of the phrase 'selling our soul' or 'soul' but in your own comments.  In the above comment you have called me bitter, dismissive, contrite, dramatic and suggested I consider fellow Democrats 'complete idiots' or 'sellouts.'  Am I missing something here or did I inadvertently hit a teensy-weensy nerve?  I am going to ask you once again to try and be a bit more respectful, or at least less annoyingly personal, and stick to the issues.  Thanks.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Here is the comment that looked bitter and astoundingly condescending to me. If you were trying to be snarky or humorous instead, you should have probably included a smiley like this one:  :-)

"How can any Democrat concede their better judgement to the ruthless calculus of winning at all costs?  Have we been so marginalised that this abrogation of our consciences is excused?  How can we celebrate the nomination as our candidate of the mistress of trigonometry?  The enabler, on our behalf, of the worst disaster visited on our community since the war in Viet-Nam?  What have we become?"

How can any Democrat concede their better judgement to the ruthless calculus of winning at all costs?  What have we become?

And to claim that Clinton is no more a progressive than Margaret Thatcher?  A suspension of common sense and even basic historical knowledge is needed to follow along, Shaun.

Have you ever considered that not everybody believes as you do, and that we are practicing our best judgement and truly believe in Clinton as the best candidate?  Perhaps it is the fact that your domicile is in Australia and you have no use whatsoever for a huge plethora of domestic initiatives Clinton shines in that is creating the disconnect here?  


by georgep on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:31:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Well, that's the question I asked, George, and I think it is a fair one.  Are you willing to discuss it amicably?  I have been trying to point out for some time that Hillary is a moderate or centrist and that this has some powerful arguments in its favour but that when the question of things like the Iraq war comes up the weaknesses of this approach are evident.  I would be delighted to discuss this further, reasonably, because I believe this is in fact the issue and may explain the divide between Hillary supporters and opponents.  And it does come down to the calculus of victory versus value based positions and I freely admit that this is where we must negotiate and compromise between, say, idealists like myself and pragmatists like you.  I respect your position but see little evidence of that being reciprocated, at least at the moment.  I am sure that even if we fail to agree we will have a thought provoking debate, hopefully for the benefit of all concerned.  I obviously feel we have erred on the side of calculus at the expense of values.  Would you not even entertain this argument as a hypothesis?  Just for the sake of discussion?  It seems to be the meta-distinction between Obama and Edwards on the one hand and Hillary on the other.

And I will happily retract the Margaret Thatcher remark as I have indicated elsewhere, it was clearly a bridge too far and inappropriate.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 01:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (2.00 / 1)

An amicable discussion pre-supposes that both parties can respect the other's viewpoint and start off on a level that makes that possible.  What you are putting forth here basically asks the question in a way that makes that impossible, essentially crossed into a realm that poisons the well.  Perhaps if you get yourself into a position of lower burn-rate (less intense dislike of the candidate) it could once again be possible, as it was in the past.

If I string all your bashes together, a picture of "the worst of the worst" emerges.  You are trying to discuss from that level?  I just can't see why you would entertain that thought, unless all you were fishing for were nods of agreement from like-minded Hillary-detractors, which makes this a truly shallow experience.  

Think about your response if my posited question were this:

"What have we become?  What is it with the Obama-Mania?  How can Democrats suspend common sense and core beliefs when they are willing to go for a guy who appears arrogantly smug, is a closet right-winger who would throw our party into a pit of disaster, would easily hand power right back over to the Republicans, and has no redeeming qualities other than that some people think that he "talks nice."

It is a stated question, but it certainly does not allow for amicable discussion, and it does cross the threshold of decent discussion to rabidness.  I hate to say it, but many of your recent posts are on that level, unfortunately. I don't recall that being so in the past.   I don't mind discussing with you, but you are starting off from a level of disdain that appears to make it a futile exercise.  I don't share that disdain for any of our politicians, and am sorry you have as much scorn for Hillary Clinton as you do.


by georgep on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 11:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

How 'bout we do a diary together?  Your position than mine, alternating points, no attacks or detraction of candidates, on the subject of moderate vs not-moderate values and strategies?  Or whatever you want to call it.  Pros and cons.  I'm serious.

I can't like her more if you can't like her less.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 06:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Godwin's law, you lose (none / 0)

Not everything bad and unholy, George, though the AUMF vote is a stunning example.  What I am suggesting, and Curt seems to understand my position, is that centrism has a fundamental strength and an equally fundamental flaw.  It has strong electoral potential but fails when leadership is called for on issues that are ahead of the curve of popular opinion.  The war in Iraq is a perfect example.  At this moment in history I believe a Democratic victory is possible without following so closely along with public opinion and I don't think Hillary is equipped or inclined to do otherwise.  I believe that her followers are so determined to win that they may be failing to see this opportunity.  I am not trying to demonise Hillary but to see her for what I believe she is, a politician willing to compromise some of her, and our, values for the sake of her, and our, ambitions.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Sorry, omphalos.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 08:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

And there is little evidence of Sen. Edwards's progressivism, unless one swallows campaign rhetoric whole.  What progressive feat did he accomplish in his Senate career?


by realistic democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:31:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

Clinton has a significantly lower progressive punch score than Obama, who is the most liberal Democrat running.  So empirically, your hypothesis that Clinton is more progressive seems to be incorrect.


by HSTruman on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

That is factually incorrect.  Compare the two progressive punch scores, here:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=NYI&cha mber=Senate&zip=&x=32&y=11

Clinton's score is 91.93, which places her 14th out of 100.

whereas

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=ILIII&c hamber=Senate&zip=&x=33&y=0

Obama's progressive score is only 90.73, which places him 19th out of 100.

I don't know where you get your info from, but the evidence is plain to see just by following the two links and seeing with your own eyes.   Clinton is ranked FIVE spots ahead of Obama when it comes to progressive rankings, which is quite significant.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

00.4 % isn't "significant" (none / 0)

Clinton and Obama are both part of the Democratic Senate Consensus (and both in the middle of that, even) and as such finding meaningful differences between their voting records requires a very sharp razor blade and a good eye.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

I stand corrected on the current progressive punch numbers, but that's still inconsistent with other measures.  

For example, the National Journal found that Obama was the second most progressive Dem candidate after Chris Dodd:

http://voteview.com/sen109.htm

In fact, that study found that Clinton was the LEAST liberal Democrat running for the nomination.  See article link below

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/news/articl e/32046/obama-more-liberal-than-kucinich -analysis-reveals/

As far as the progressive punch score you cited, that's changed since the start of the current Congress.  Obama used to be ranked higher.  Knowing Clinton, I suspect the change is rather pointed and not a coincidence.  Regardless, she clearly remains the most hawkish on the issue of Iraq, despite belatedly adopting SOME of Obama's positions on the war, which strikes me as the most important issue for progressives in this election.  


by HSTruman on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

I have followed the scores for quite some time.  Clinton has always been the more progressive politician of the two.  However, Obama recently was ranked 15th to her 14th.  So, what actually DID occur was that, no, Clinton did not have a "change," but Obama did.  He changed for the worse, from 15th to 19th, by voting for bills that are considered less progressive.  Clinton has been a consistent progressive (as per her voting record) whereas Obama's record has regressed as of late away from Progressive values.   Thus the corresponding govtrack ranking of Obama as a "rank of file" Democrat.  

There are several other analysis' which assess Clinton from a "progressive" perspective and she always scores very high here.  That Nationaljournal assessment is the ONLY one I have seen to contradict some of the other sites.

As for "more hawkish," I am not buying into that one at all.   Have you seen Obama's position on residual forces?  His envisioned scope is identical to Clinton's as for what missions residual forces would be asked to engage in, but in addition to all of that Obama has made clear that he also wants to engage more heavily in Afghanistan and Pakistan (at least the border region) at the same time.   I would like to know how many residual forces Obama envisions to keep in the region to accomplish all of those tasks, but don't be surprised if the total number exceeds what Clinton is envisioning of leaving in the area.   I don't see where you come up with the contention that Clinton is "more hawkish" on Iraq than Obama, given what I have seen Obama propose as for residual forces.  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:55:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Clinton -- enthusiastic supporter of going to war with Iraq.

Obama -- against the war from the start.  

Do you really need more of an explanation regarding why I think she's more hawkish?  Oh, and the "residual forces" thing is the stupidest debate I can think of.  Unsurprisingly, no one other than Richardson thinks its wise to list the EXACT number of troops that should remain in the region.  Clinton certainly hasn't and neither have Obama or Edwards.  Why?  Because god only knows what will be feasible or in our best interest once we start the draw down.  Pretty funny, however, that a hillary supporter is now trying to argue she's to the LEFT of Obama on this issue.  She STILL won't apologize for her cynical vote authorizing the war.  Pitiful.  

As far as her progressive bonafides go, when she first entered the Senate her voting record WAS extremely progressive.  It then moderated before, once Obama emerged to challenge her, became more progressive again.  To be fair, however, I concede that she is certainly more left-of-center than Richardson and would not, outside of her views on Iraq, be an objectionable president.  I just think Obama would be better.


by HSTruman on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:46:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you know where, it's been pointed out before... (none / 0)

actually more than once.  you just don't like the evidence, so you dismiss it.  you've never acknowledged evidence that refutes yours, that's just who you are, completely subjective, a closed mind...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

This is quite the laugh, bored now.  I corrected HSTruman's wrong "evidence," he came back that indeed "he stands corrected," yet YOU write "you just don't like the evidence, so you dismiss it.  you've never acknowledged evidence that refutes yours..blablabla."  

If you took the time to LOOK at evidence instead of just trying to spread pablum you would have noticed that the "evidence" presented was all wrong.   That way you would have saved yourself from looking a certain way for making the above statement when indeed HSTruman was completely off-base and it should be in YOUR (and anyone's) interest to see mistakes corrected and having a look at the real actual, factual data.    


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I also provided a different source that disagrees with your position.  And I agree that the PP score different is statisically insignificant.  There are five spots between them, but essentially no different from spots 12-20.  Which I think you'd admit if you're being honest.


by HSTruman on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I agree that the score itself is not overly significant with the scores somewhat close, but the govtrack ranking is not at all close, in fact Obama and Clinton are in an entirely difference class of Democrats altogether.  

Remember that the whole thing started with someone claiming that Clinton is this utterly centrist candidate, which is not borne out by the evidence.  Then you look deeper and find that Obama is further to the center (if ever so slightly in some ways, as you point out, but also more so in other ways (via govtrack.)


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hillary is like most americans... (none / 0)

a little bit of this, a little bit of that.  it's her association with the dlc that concerns many, and her campaign strategy which makes people conclude that she's a centrist.  you put too much stock in things that belie what we all see with our own eyes...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary is like most americans... (none / 0)

My eyes see differently than yours, apparently.  In a case like that you go with independent fact assemblies that don't have a "dog" in this.  The verdict is clear when you look at facts instead of emotional beliefs.


by georgep on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 12:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah, that's an extreme minority position... (none / 0)

most voters go with their gut -- and that benefits hillary right now (among democrats).  but visceral voters are a lot bigger part of the electorate than rational voters are.

that's more true of the activist base.  many activists are driven by single issues, and not some overall record.  again, as long as iraq is not the central part of our news cycle, hillary benefits (my theory).  but if it explodes, hillary's appeal to anti-war voters may explode with it.  we can't know whether it will occur, only speculate what happens if it occurs...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:34:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i was talking about what i had posted before... (none / 0)

which you didn't like (nj's recent rankings, iirc).  unlike you, i don't go cherry picking data, i just rely on what i find at the places i know to find it...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yet, in the number one thing that unites... (none / 0)

progressives -- the issue that drove our takeover of the house and the senate -- she was not progressive.  so it's completely understandable that progressives would dismiss all that other evidence when she abandoned our cause to vote for an immoral war.

it's no surprise at all...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:41:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yet, in the number one thing that unites... (none / 0)

That is where you are factually incorrect.  Those who call themselves "progressives" support Clinton very strongly, over all other candidates.   You see, you mistake the blogosphere with the "progressive spectrum," which is not at all the same.    


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i've only seen one poll where progressives are... (none / 0)

included.  so i find it difficult to believe that you have data to support that contention.  but i'd certainly be interested...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shaun - look at her AFL ranking (none / 0)

higher then either Obama's or Edwards.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:36:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (2.00 / 1)

Single-payer health care - which she's not supporting - is moderate left. Other moderate left positions are aggressive carbon taxes, equalizing primary school funding, and real pro-union laws - none of which she supports. Far-left would be things like removing "person" status from corporations. Nothing you mention is even remotely far-left except in Fox News propaganda. Hillary is a center-left politician emphasizing the left bit for the primary before a hard move to the center in the general.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (2.00 / 1)

"left" and "right" are on a continuum, so how "far" left something is depends on the context. In the context of written bills and co-sponsorships in the Senate she is further left than her Senate competitors, and nearly furthest left in the Senate overall.

George is not saying she is a Marxist.


by souvarine on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:00:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (2.00 / 1)

Hillary is part of the Democratic Senate Consensus, a large group of Senators (about 20-25) with very similar voting records. "Far" means much more than typical, and she's an entirely typical, ordinary Senate Democrat. In the context of the Senate, she's a moderate leftist - there's nobody you could call far-left even within the confines of the Senate. In the context of overall American politics, she (along with the rest of the DSC) is center-left - not nearly as left as the progressive caucus in the House (genuine moderate left) and certainly not far-left.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (2.00 / 1)

Shaun Appleby is obviously arguing that his candidate Obama is the progressive salvation, when the record is clear that he is further to the center than Clinton.

Review his 19th placing vs. Clinton's 14th placing in the Progressivepunch metric I linked to further up in the thread.

Review also the govtrack rankings here:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.x pd?id=300022

Clinton is ranked as a "radical" Democrat with the following Ideometer:

Obama, in contrast, is ranked much more in the center, far to the right of Clinton, as can be seen here:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.x pd?id=400629

His classification is that of a "rank and file" Democrat, much more centrist than Clinton.

His Ideometer is shown here:

Nobody is saying that Clinton is a far-left Marxist.  Compared to any of the top tier candidates, however, she is clearly to the left of them (Edwards' record is very centrist, although his current rhetoric is more progressive)  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (none / 0)

Nobody's saying she's a far-left Marxist, but you did say she's far-left - which she isn't. There's nobody even remotely far-left in the Senate, and one of the things we need for fair politics is to put paid to these RW media "smears" of center-leftists or even moderates as "far-left".

The ideometer you link to does not explain their methodology and must, based on the data, be biased to calling Hillary "radical". The fact is that she and Obama are very, very close on votes - as indicated by the 00.4% difference in the score you linked to above. Finding a meaningful difference requires either bias or a very small set of "relevant" votes.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

1. I was referring to a placement in comparative terms.  You obviously contend that there is no Senator who is truly on the far left.  However, when you compare the Senators with each other, Clinton's votes, bills and co-sponsorships place her to the left of virtually all Senators, definitely the ones in serious contention running for the nomination.  

2. Why would govtrack be biased?  That seems illogical to me.  The raw data inserted into the computer is not prone to be subject to bias.   The data is compiled by tallying up the bills crafted and others' bills co-sponsored.  In that measure (a very important one, IMO) Clinton is one of the furthest left politicians on the spectrum, thus considered a "radical" Democrat.  

Here is the spectrum, if you care to see it:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/spectrum .xpd

Of course, again, it is seen in relative terms, relative to the rest of the Senate.

  Compared to the other two candidates in the top-tier there is NO QUESTION that Clinton is by far the more progressive candidate.   Which is what this started with, as Shaun Appleby made the nonsensical claim that "progressive values" would die with Clinton when indeed the candidate he backs is the more centrist, the more "post-partisan" and the more Democratic-party adverse, which also leads to the logical assumption that he would follow a very centrist track in a potential General Election campaign, one that would actually at times turn its backs on Democrats altogether.


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:37:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (2.00 / 1)

I never actually mentioned Senator Obama, George, although he is certainly my preferred candidate.  The diary, and my comments, were directed to the issue of Hillary Clinton, the nature of her leadership and where she is likely to take the party if elected.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

But when presented with obvious evidence that Obama is clearly the more centrist of the two candidates (overall voting record plus bills crafted/co-sponsored) are you then prepared to declare woe to the Democratic party (particularly its progressive wing) should he reverse his current trends and pull out a win for the nomination?  


by georgep on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:40:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I don't accept your thesis that the 'progressivism' on these respective candidates can be adduced on the basis of their Senate votes as minority legislators.  How much daylight could there be between them?  Hillary's vote for the AUMF carries far greater weight with me.  What is her position on the restoration of habeas corpus, on Camp X-Ray, on domestic spying and civil liberties, on the international rule of law and the rehabilitation of the Geneva Convention and the International Court of Law, on the policy of non-negotiation with 'axis of evil' powers, nuclear pre-emptive 'options' in regard to Iran and normalisation of relations with Cuba?  There are clear distinctions.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't want Obama for his progressivism (none / 0)

On domestic issues he's not very different from Clinton. Now, on foreign policy he's obviously less hawkish by temperament, and that is a big deal. A lowered chance of another disasterous war is a big plus.

My main interest is Obama is that I think he's the man to strike at the bases of the right-wing - perversions of religion, division, and racism. He's openly religious but with a good heart and he's the man to point out how the "Christian" right isn't very Christian. He's known to be very deft at defusing us-vs-them, which is essential to right-wing fears. And finally, racism underlies much of the current Republican political strength and a brilliant, unifying black President is just what we need to show a few more percent of Americans that blacks are people too.

I think Hillary would do a pretty good job of running the country. But I think at the end of her probable 8 years the RW machine would still be in perfect working order and still a threat to the well-being of our country. I want the monster staked.


by curtadams on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't want Obama for his progressivism (none / 0)

Amen.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what neato graphics! (none / 0)

cool.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (none / 0)

Yeah, and this same website lists Russ Feingold my senator as being rank and file. That just is not the  case. Russ is a very progressive Democrat far more left than Hillary. So I have to question the credibility of this site. The rankings are also determined by what the authors feel is a "left" or "right" position on a said bill. They fail to recognize the real world political spectrum.


by SocialDem on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton far left? BWAHAHAHA! (none / 0)

I agree that it would be false to characterize Clinton as "far left" in American politics, or even as out of the mainstream of Democratic Senators. She is near the left edge of Senate Democrats, and while I think she could fit in the House progressive caucus she would be on its right side.

She does associate with the DLC (which I think you meant by DSC), but she associates with a fairly broad range of Democratic issue groups and is not captive to any of them.


by souvarine on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

"...as long as you convince people that your positions are sincere and come from a place of strength, not weakness..."

Sounds a lot like the progressive movement, difference is what we consider strength and what HRC considers strength.


by MNPundit on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:03:58 AM EST

Wrong narrative (2.00 / 1)

Your narrative here is mistaken. What Hillary is doing is demonstrating her discipline and preparation, in contrast to Rudy who has neither. This has been the key to her success since she formally entered politics in the run for the New York Senate. She made believers out of people who were skeptics, even some of the Clinton hater colleagues in the Senate. Hillary has worked hard and done her homework. The narrative here is not about centrism, but competence. And I think that is what has made her successful in this campaign season to date. I believe Jerome posted a diary on this some months ago suggesting that perceptions of competence may trump change both in the primary and the general election, despite what voters might say in their responses on polling. I say this as someone who has leaned towards Edwards or Obama.


by cmpnwtr on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 09:43:52 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Sound like the media and the Clinton are collaborating together to influence how the voters vote.

I think it's time for Obama and Edwards to take on Hillary more directly since the media refuses to fucking do their fucking homework and im tired of blogger and media personnel not doing their homework.


by JaeHood on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:33:15 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 1)

Evil Sen. Clinton has the media in her back pocket.....give me a break.


by realistic democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i think certain people have gone round the (none / 0)

bend....

not saying any names though...

But anyone who believes the media is out to help the Clintons, my, my...

Edwards supporters and all Dems should be pissed at how the msm have tarnished that man, but...

if its an Obama fan saying this...oh boy..

my, my..


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

The Republicans like Sen. clinton?!

Thank you for that bit of comedy.


by realistic democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:36:11 AM EST

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (2.00 / 2)

"I doubt you can use a spreadsheet to prove progressivism, though no doubt you disagree.  It has to be earned, which is a foreign concept, I admit, these days.  The occult is rarely manifest in these matters.  Take your pick, the Paris Commune, the Pullman strike, the Spanish Civil War, Joe Hill and the Wobblies, the Socialist revolutions of 1848, 1917 and the parliamentary shifts in Europe in the 30's and our own FDR.  These are the omphallus of 'progressivism.'  Tell me about it, George.  Kucinich is probably the only true 'progressive' among our current candidates, frankly, but Hillary is about as much a 'progressive' as Margaret Thatcher."

Shaun, these are the historical sign posts of radical revolutions, which have nothing with the do with the American progressive tradition which starts with Bryan, Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. FDR was very much apart of that (he, Norman Thomas and Gene Debs are all rolling in their graves by your linking him to the Wobblies and the Paris Commune), as was Truman, JFK, LBJ and, very much so, Bill and Hillary Clinton.


by Reference Librarian on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:46:59 AM EST

bullocks - such rot! (none / 0)

Hillary is about as much a 'progressive' as Margaret Thatcher."

blimey, thats stupid.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:46:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullocks - such rot! (none / 0)

Yeah, sorry, that was a stretch.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Do you really think that the ideals of those admittedly failed revolutions and revolutionaries weren't a fundamental precursor to the establishment of some of the policies of Wilson and FDR?  The Pullman Strike demanded, among other things, the eight-hour day we take for granted, those of us lucky enough to have one these days.  Bryan was a slightly different kettle of fish but shared the same antecedents at least as far as economic populism was concerned.  Do you not see the initiatives of the FDR administration in the same context as policy positions of the contemporary Socialist parliamentary governments of Ramsey MacDonald in Britain and Leon Blum in France?  All with a common ideological basis tracing an unbroken, though admittedly bourgeois, lineage to the revolutions of 1848 in Europe?  I do.

I am not suggesting they shared the same parties, platforms or electoral preferences, to be sure, but the very notion of universal sufferage, for example, was a radical notion before it became a right we take for granted.  This is probably not the appropriate forum for a historical review of 'progressivism' but it is a bigger tent than even the Democratic party.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:49:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

In a word no. The purpose the socialist revolutionaries was overthrowing the capitalist system and establishing the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. The purpose of liberal and not so liberal social reformers--social insurance was first introduced by Bismarck, no flaming radical he--explicitly to prevent the social revolution. Read Teddy Roosevelt's speeches on the subject. To get a good overview of the American progressive tradition check out a conference on the Progressive Era held at the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton in the fall of 2000 http://www.wws.princeton.edu/events/webm edia_archive.html As for Macdonald and Blum. When FDR took office Ramsay Macdonald was heading a National Coalition Government consisting of 470 Conservatives, 13 National Labour, 68 Liberals (Liberal National and Liberal) and various others. The real power in that government was Stanley Baldwin and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was Neville Chamberlain. Needless to say "Keep the Red Flag flying" was not one of these worthies favorite ditties. Leon Blum's Popular Front government did not take office till June of 1936, i.e. when FDR was about to run for his second term. As to the question of Clinton's progressive record, eriposte on the Left Coaster has an excellent three part post laying out the evidence in exacting detail. http://www.theleftcoaster.com/ Of course if you think making speeches rather than actually casting votes (for example Senator Obama on Kyl-Lieberman) is better measure of progressiveness than you will not find this convincing. Here is my summary of the candidate's scores and relative rankings taken from Progressive Punch.org Name Overall Score Rank in Senate House Biden 84.43 31/100 Clinton 91.88 14/100 Dodd 86.96 26/100 Kucinich87.41 119/433 Obama 90.60 20/100 Edwards of course isn't in this group, since he is no longer in Congress. However, in 2004 National Journal ran a story showing the liberal rankings of all the Democratic Senators based on their ranking system. Edward Kennedy ranked 5th with a score of 88.6. Joe Lieberman ranked 40th with a score of 64.1. Edwards had a very respectable 75.7, making him probably the most progressive Southern Senator. Clinton's score was 83.9 putting her in 13th place well ahead of Dodd (22) and Biden (25). Obviously this will have no impact since being a progressive is not about what a candidate does, but what people think she is. After all the world inside our heads is much more important than what goes on outside. God help us all.
by Reference Librarian on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Tale of Two Narratives (none / 0)

Yeah, Bismark was the actor but the idea was contemporary bourgeois progressive thinking.  He was fighting to stave off the epidemic of parliaments in Europe at the time and narrowly succeeded.  I don't see how identifying centrist actions on the part of the socialists named disproves my thesis.  It almost reinforces it by exception.  Of course these things are connected.  Syndicalists, socialists, communists, trade-unionists, 'progressives' all form myriad expressions of the same essential values, basically what we now trivialise as 'mommy' government, where the common good is elevated above market forces, the legal freedoms of the 'citizen' are manifestly upheld, government is to one degree or another it's 'brother's keeper' and business is regulated in the interests of the electorate.

I would be delighted to discuss the nuances and detailed parsing of this in respect of the Revolution of 1848 vs the Paris Commune, say, or the fractious internal hostilities which destroyed the Spanish Republic.  But perhaps this is not the appropriate forum.

We are busy here just trying to agree on the obvious, the Clintons took the party on a one-way trip to the centre and kept calling themselves 'progressives.'  If that's true than we need a new name for the rump of the progressive wing of the party because by that definition they have ceased to exist.  The Clintonista's call them 'fringe' I believe.  God help us all, indeed.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 09:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Was that really the lesson progressives got? (none / 0)

That's certainly not how I read it at the time.

Whereas the progressive movement took one lesson from Gore and Kerry's losses: that to win, Democrats need to forsake the down the middle politics that have led us to losses in the past and instead stand up clearly and strongly for progressive values, Clinton appears to be banking on a slightly different lesson: that in fact running down the middle is a winning strategy as long as you convince people that your positions are sincere and come from a place of strength, not weakness...

As I understood it, the lesson seemed to be: don't muddle.  Take clear positions, highlight how they differ from your opponent's positions, and run on those distinctions.

The reasons for those positions being progressive positions, was (a) we're progressives, and we feel these are the right positions, and (b) in large part, that's what most of the American public wants too, so we've got the wind at our back here.


by RT on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:26:56 AM EST

some people are getting delusional (none / 0)

RRsai says:

"I think the repugs are hoping Hillary wins because they like her and want her to be president."

uh huh, right, yeah, sure, ok, spot on, terrific thinking, right....


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:40:54 AM EST

that's what they say... (none / 0)

see my signature...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ive had to work with the Grover (none / 0)

on a charity thing we both do in DC.

He is a liar.

Now figure it out.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 11:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

he's not the only one saying it... (none / 0)

and a republican being a liar is not exactly news...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 10:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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