A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards

I'm going to take a brief break from the regularly scheduled Edwards-promotion to briefly explain why I'm supporting a candidate: not a particular one but any one. I was prompted to write this post by Chris Bowers, who criticized me yesterday for supporting Edwards. He wasn't criticizing the substance of my pro-Edwards pieces, mind you, but the fact that I'm writing them.

And you are not shilling for Edwards? Then what is this?

My Case for John Edwards
John Edwards for President

What's his proof that I'm "shilling?" The fact that I'm writing pro-Edwards diaries. That, and some colorful praise I had for this awesomely awesome speech by Edwards.

(As an aside, that thread led Bowers, he of the translucent skin, to ban me from Openleft. I'm proud of the "punishment." Openleft, in its intolerance of even mild dissent and its distaste for vigorous debate, is neither open nor left. Maybe Openleft's sleeping with the Establishment will eventually produce an interesting or popular blog, but it's not going so well so far. I, too, used to take a regular paycheck from People for the American Way and didn't find it especially edifying. And now, as if striving for irrelevance, Openleft is lending indirect support to a gaffaholic conservative, corporate Democrat.)

It's easy not to support a candidate. That's what I did in every presidential election prior to this one since 1992. (I voted for Nader in 2000, in New York.) If you remain uncommitted, you don't have to contend with the candidates' imperfections, the inevitable low points in campaigns. You can go through the election cycle pretty much cringe-free. You don't suffer dissappointment. You're perfect, in a sense, above it all, or beneath it. Believe me, I could write angry, righteous posts about the insufficient progressivism of the Democratic contenders. I could write those in my sleep. In fact, I think I have.

Supporting a candidate, although more difficult than remaining neutral, brings its own rewards. You join in common cause with a diverse group of activists. You serve as part of an informal communications team, countering the MSM's distortions. You contribute to one of the most powerful debate-shaping instruments in poltics: a presidential campaign; win or lose, Edwards has already nudged the poltiical center of the party, if not the country, to the left. Most important, you help the campaign to become better.

Without a sizable base of committed netroots supporters, Edwards would be less likely to take positions that piss off Big Money and the DC Establishment. And he wouldn't have attracted Joe Trippi, who, in turn, wouldn't have become a dominant player in the campaign. And he wouldn't be financially viable right now. And he couldn't credibly claim to be heading the most bottom-up, people-powered of the campaigns. And to the extent that my constructive crticism--my calls for Edwards to move left--have any impact at all, it's because I'm a supporter. Otherwise, I'd be just another obscure critic. I don't think I'm flattering myself to think that I, along with Edwards's other online supporters, have embolded the campaign.

So no, Bowers, to promote a candidate on the blogs is not to shill, it is to engage in an honorable and useful form of politics.

                                                                          ****

Okay, so there's this guy who needs to get to Europe. It's essential. Maybe the fate of humankind doesn't depend on it, but then maybe it does. Certainly, many lives are at stake. To try to traverse the ocean this guy is given a choice of vehicles: a hot air balloon, a motor boat, or jet. "Which do you want?" he is asked. He shrugs. "I don't care," he says, relaxing. "I mean, They all could get me there."

I'm tired of seeing people in the blogs casually claim that any of the top-tier Dems could get us there. This is probably true--and besides the point. They all could win, and they all could lose. The important question is: who is most likely to win?

Like a lot of people in the netroots, I'm wary of arguments based on a candidate's electability. It's an elusive and relatively empty virtue. If you vote just on the basis of electability, you risk, like someone who marries for money, cheating your heart and losing in the end.

But.

But, it's pretty important, a candidate's ability to win. Very important. In a fundamental sense, there is nothing more important.

And when gauging a candidate's electabilty, there is no factor more important than how or she performs in the states where the election will be decided. National polls mean nothing: just ask Al Gore. So these latest numbers from Survey USA are rightfully attracting attention. By any measure you want to use, Edwards is the strongest candidate against all the GOP contenders in four states that Bush narrowly won in 2004: New Mexico, Iowa, Missouri, and Ohio.

Clinton supporters will argue that by the time the election arrives, all the candidates will have negatives as high as hers, and that she's best equipped to handle the rightwing attacks. Obama supporters will argue that he's still an unknown quantity in swing states, and that he brings in new voters that tend to elude polls. These arguments are reasonable but they both rely on events that have not happened and may not happen. Edwards is a strong general election candidate today, now, and stands to get even stronger.

What most voters know about Edwards is that they like him. They know he's a lawyer who ran for vice president and got a fancy haircut. And his wife has cancer: they like her too. And they may remember his Two Americas stump speech. When they study him after he wins the nomination, they'll see a passionate pol with a message well-suited to the mood of the country, which is hungry for progressive change. His economic populism appeals to Reagan Democrats, who to a large degree determine the choice made by swing states in the industrial midwest. His anti-K-street message of reform appeals to another important swing group: the Perot voters. His plans to revive rural America will help him in swing states in the west and the south. If Repubs are stupid enough to nominate Romney and Dems are smart enough to nominate Edwards, we could be a looking at a 40-state victory. I mean, Alabama and Kentucky would be in play.

So as Democrats decide how to get there from here, I strongly sugggest we take the jet.



Display:


So he's most progressive (2.00 / 8)

and the most electable.

Why wouldn't we nominate him?


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:00:29 PM EST

Re: So he's most progressive (2.00 / 2)

Exactly right.  If people want a Progressive President, Edwards is clearly the best choice.(BTW, Have you ever pulled a punch David?)


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So he's most progressive (2.00 / 3)

Well, this one might have been better pulled because as BTD points out below, it threatens to put the focus on me anf my squabble with Bowers rather than on Edwards, where it belongs.

That said, there is a problematic lack of spirted debate among A-list progressive bloggers, and that makes blogs less strong and less interesting. I'm not an A-list blogger and I like to debate. Bowers and I would probably get along fine if we met in a bar, but we met in the sphere, where he just lent support to probably the most conservative Democrat in the race. Will other A-list bloggers at least scratch their heads, if not raise an objection?


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am so sorry! (2.00 / 2)

Daivd I am so sorry about the stance of OPEN LEFT, I would be all for boycotting that site Period.

How they can even claim being left yet banning someone for opinion that is different.

WHat has happened to America?  Where is freedom anymore!

I will not click on Open Left, I will give them no benefit from a click on their site and will encourage others not to go there either.

Maybe contacting their advertisers is due!

I have read many comments about people dissatified with the GATEKEEPER attitude, it started here, and with their own site has really taken hold.

Forget the rest, for get the campaigns, forget it all if we can't have free discussion about the candidates for the President of the USA.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

watch out for the Tasers (2.00 / 1)


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:26:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So he's most progressive (2.00 / 2)

This is absolutely true:

That said, there is a problematic lack of spirted debate among A-list progressive bloggers, and that makes blogs less strong and less interesting. I'm not an A-list blogger and I like to debate. Bowers and I would probably get along fine if we met in a bar, but we met in the sphere, where he just lent support to probably the most conservative Democrat in the race. Will other A-list bloggers at least scratch their heads, if not raise an objection?


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well said, David. (2.00 / 4)

One difference is that you make you bread by doing something other than blogging.  They call you a "shill," but they are the professionals.

I think they may fear the people, the ordinary folks who blog.  How can one make money out of this if everyone is giving it away for free?  We word sluts will give it away on the internet.

You were not paid to write this post by MyDD.  You make your income writing novels, among other things.

BTW, I just got it yesterday and have started it.  You obviously have real talent.  It's a good read, a good story.  I like it so far.

So if people are empowered to be internet activists, to blog without pay, then how do they get money? Thus, there appears to be a built in disincentive to empower new activists.  We get punditry instead of empowerment.  

Jerome and Markos seem to try to avoid that.  The others do not do so.


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So he's most progressive (none / 0)

The politics of the blogs aside, what has Edwards done that speaks to progressive v. a political calculus?  What cause did he champion in his Senate career that advanced the progressive agenda?


by realistic democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So he's most progressive (none / 0)

Well, I've spent many a diary discussing JRE's progressive cred; you check my page for extended pieces on his record and positions.

In the Senate, he was progressive for a Southern Dem. The biggest piece of legislation that has his name on it is the Patients Bill of Rights, a good piece of populist legislation that predicts his current leadership on health care. And he was an early critics of the Free Trade regime, opposing NAFTA during his campaign, then voting against (some) but not all "free" trade bills. But I'd be the first to admit that he found his progressive voice once he started running for pres last time (and knew he wouldn't run for reelection in Jesse Helms' state.) That's when he started talking at length and in depth about poverty and economic inequality.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And beyond that, what's wrong with ... (2.00 / 2)

... picking someone who's political calculus says that the way to win is to be progressive?

And that is be progressive, not just make progressive noises. Many a political calculus in 2005 would have found Poverty to be among the least promising in terms of an "issue to ride to the White House".

Indeed, going further back, if you were looking around for opportunity in North Carolina politics, and nothing else, and you were a successful trial attorney who had made $10m's of dollars ... why in the heck would you run as a Democrat? The smart money would have been on finding out to your outrage that the Democratic party had been taken over by librul special interest, switch parties, and beat the pants off the opposition in the primary.

Do we want people who support progressive causes but do not put any effort into working out how to win political fights to advance those causes? Of course not. So its not a matter of "tolerating" a certain amount of political calculus, we should in fact demand that politicians angling for our support show that they not only see an opportunity to support the right cause, but also see an opportunity to do so in a politically effective way.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Financially viable? (none / 0)

Is Edwards really financially viable?


Democrats Against Hillary
by wahoopaul on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:03:59 PM EST

Re: Financially viable? (2.00 / 5)

He's got enough to win the first few states, and that's all he needs.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (none / 0)

So lets see him win first , right.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (2.00 / 3)

Let's see him win before what?


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (none / 0)

If he can't win the primary , was the use of his numbers in a general election that hasn't even started.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers show why to support him (2.00 / 2)

So that he can win the primary.  

He is the jet and Clinton is the hot air balloon.  She may get us their but it will be a nail biter with so many opportunities to shoot her down.

Also by the time she gets there she will be ever so cautious again.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (2.00 / 2)

Fair enough, although my point is that his GE numbers are one reason (among many) that we should nominate him.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (none / 0)

Thats not really a cogent reason why I should support a candidate , GE are almost a year away and anything can happen in a campaign , I'll rather choose my candidate based on policy positions.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (2.00 / 2)

If that were the case, if you went by policy position, you'd be choosing Edwards.

Electability is only one of the reasons to nominate Edwards, and I wouldn't be playing up his electability if he hadn't led on the issues. He's earned the right, by leading on the issues, to talk about his electability.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (none / 0)

Why would I be choosing Edwards if policy position was the case ?

Isn't their a contradiction in this whole process , for how many months now have I heard from people ( mostly Edwards supporters ) that polls don't matter its too far out , now we are supposed to cast a vote for Edwards based on his poll numbers in a general election , one year out.

Assuming a new poll comes out 2 weeks from now and shows the opposite in a general election , should his supporters ditch him because of that . Numbers in a GE one year out is not really a valid reason to support a candidate .( Its too far out as numerous people have claimed all along).


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Financially viable? (2.00 / 2)

Clinton suppoters, starting at the top with the Unionbuster, are addicted to polls. The entire campaign, as far as I can tell, is one giant poll.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree with David here (none / 0)

if memory serves, "lori" is a moderate Democrat and would not prefer the more progressive candidate in a primary. So probably she would stick with Hillary anyway.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree with David here (none / 0)

Right. I think she woulda supported Warner, she said. I shouldn't assume that people here prefer progressive positions.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

OpenLeft does seem to practice a strikingly ideologically rigid politics, with its attack on "Bush dogs" who stray from the party line on Iraq, such as Rep. Brian Baird, even if they've ben solid progressives on every other issue up until now, and its support for Richardson, a social and fiscal conservative (by Democratic standards), based solely on his questionable promise to leave no residual troops in Iraq.


"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."--John McCain
by lorax on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:15:06 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 1)

If you aren't gonna primary people that stray from the reservation, so to speak, what's the point?  Isn't there such a thing as holding the elected officials accountable?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you and Bowers about primaries, I just can't fathom his thinking on the presidential primary.

He and Stoller make no sense to me on that topic.  I just don't follow their logic.

It is frustrating because I do agree with them on many aspects,
but the presidential primary is so important that I am leary of their analysis on other things now.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 1)

We should primary, first and foremost, those who aren't solid progressives but represent solid progressive districts.  That is why a challenge to Dan Lipinski (IL-03) makes so much more sense than a challenge to Brian Baird (WA-03), who is a progressive on every issue but has had a change of heart on Iraq AND represents a swing district.


"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."--John McCain
by lorax on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 6)

Yeah, Bowers got mad at anyone yesterday who mentioned they liked John Edwards.  He didn't ban me, but he thought I was rude. Haha.

What the issue may be is that the blog sphere, such as the Open Lefts, MyDD's, the FiredogLake, is becoming more like the 4th Estate.  In my view, the blog sphere should be ideally the 5th estate.  However, since money is exchanging hands these days to keep the blogs going, they are letting up on conservative Democrats such as Clinton.  One of Rove's tactics was threatening the media by allowing limited or no access to the WH unless they didn't criticize Bush.  I have a gut feeling Clinton, who has taken a few lessons on what the Rethugs do, may do the same to the bloggers.  Right now, they have better access to her, but I think she will not be a netroots president, as John Edwards would be.

When asked at the Yearly Kos who will hire a WH blogger, Edwards even named the one it would be: Elizabeth Edwards.

And yes, the most electable, even by the polls, is John Edwards.   But apparently that's spun differently.


by benny06 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:16:23 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 6)

Well said. And now Lux is joining Stoller and Bowers in claiming that there are no differences between Edwards and Clinton. Tell that to Ralph Nader, who has said he's run if Hillary is the nominee. Nader, love him or hate him, understand the difference between a populist Dem and a corporate Dem. I wish the Openleft crew did.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

Bookmarks>OpenLeft>Delete


by mrobinsong on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:19:09 PM EST

Yes (none / 0)

I am in agreement, not even a click on OPEN LEFT.

Period.  Not one!


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

I don't think it's fair to say that they're promoting Clinton. The people at Openleft are, by all signs, solid progressives.

That said, by failing to support on of the top challenges to Clinton, they're helping her.

And my main point regarding Openleft is that they act and run their blog in a such a way that violates basic progressive principles.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:39:32 PM EST

watch this alone (none / 0)

ignore all of the Whizzer white, NAFTA is my greatest accomplishmen in Congress Richardson comments and this alone would make anyone supporting him wonder why not Kucinich?

if actually winning the general doesn't matter why not Kucinich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYFtYlFPS 5o


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: watch this alone (2.00 / 3)

Well they would say that Richardson is a vehicle for raising this issue, which they decided it of importance like not other, In fact, the difference on this issue between Richardson and Edwards is small while the difference between Richardson and true antiwar pols--who oppose the miltary base of an embassy in the heart of Baghdad--is large. It's an arbritrary choice--all the more curious because they've hitched themselves to a bad candidate.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

except that (2.00 / 1)

richardson is a stalking horse for Hillary.

if anyone wants anti-war they'd probably go for Obama if not for RIchardson


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo (2.00 / 3)

By helping Richardson on just one aspect of his campaign, they maintain their "progressive" status.   They are also trying to prove that they have worth to any candidate as smart strategists.  Then when Richardson throws his support to Clinton right before the Iowa caucus, they will be surprised. Then they will shrug and work for Clinton.  

Me?  I'm a liberal.  There is one candidate with both substance and style and the only one with a shot at not having a horrifyingly divisive general election. Edwards.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right you (2.00 / 2)

actually want a democratic president who can campaign publicly within swing districts and win seats...

When Richardson helps HIllary win and we have troops in Iraq in her second term I hope Stoller and Bowers will ask for forgiveness


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo ... don't forget that Kerry did better ... (none / 0)

... than Gore in Ohio, and where Kerry did better than Gore in Ohio tended to be in rural and exurban counties, and the standard bearer showing up most frequently in those kinds of counties in 2004 was Edwards.

I'm convinced that if you flip the 2004 ticket, Edwards/Kerry would have had every chance to win Ohio.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 07:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 3)

I don't know what happened to the analytical abilities of Bowers but at times he seems to deliberately ignore truths.  

I have been so disappointed with Open Left.  To ban someone who vigorously disagrees with you is to make the debate less interesting.  

Bowers and Stoller have gone a strange route for progressives.  

Edwards is the most electable and the best for the country to loosen the grip of the corporatists.

Bush41 and Bill Clinton are buddies.  Why do we think Hillary would fight on our behalf?

The Clintons like being part of the power circles.
Edwards feels that lifting up the poor and strengthening the middle class is the cause of his life.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:43:06 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

Bowers has a short fuse.

He banned someone I know because he had the temerity to question why Bowers was giving frontpage space to possibly illegal pro-Obama group. A totally legit question that Bowers didn't want deal with, so he banned this commenters.

Anti-progressive.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

I noticed that too.  This banning of people who disagree has happened more than once.

Of course they can do it, it is their blog, but it is being noticed and noted.

I agree with you that they seem to want to promote progressive ideals,
but they don't seem to be willing to take the hard stance needed
to promote the most progressive presidential candidate,
in case they are wrong or lose.  

I think even in losing Dean and Lamont pushed the progressives forward.  
And I think Edwards is more electable that either of those two.

Progressives are more touchy than I thought.  
Perhaps living through the 60's and 70's and of course the other decades,
made me more aware how rare a progressive leader is.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 4)

I so appreciate your support of John Edwards. I met him at fundraiser in Seattle, listened in on a conversation, was a close as you get at a stand there with wine in hand party, and and and I formed a judgement. Can't help it. You just do when you are at a party of all new people, and on the way home you talk about those you met at the party.

I kept repeating, "He's just like us."  - Except he's witty and smart, a great speaker and - so handsome. But besides all that, he's like us at a party in that he cracks jokes, gets distracted, talks to somebody else, comes back to the conversation where he left it, has good manners, knows where he is, compliments the host, appreciates people around him and is aware they are there, like us grown-ups at a party being our party best but loose, too, and happy. Above all, he seems really happy with that joy of life that some people have and some don't, some people work on their worries a lot.

If we work hard and succeed in having a President Edwards, we are in for a very big treat. The D.C. courtiers will shine their fickle lights on him, and the whole world will see that America has intelligence and grace back in the WH.

Let's work very hard. What are you willing to do? The press demands big money figures before they will mention John Edwards every day as they do for Clinton.

http://johnedwards.com/action/contribute mygrassroots?page_id=MjgxOTc

Will you do your best to fundraise in the next 5 days? See my page-you can do this too.


by mrobinsong on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:44:41 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

I'm tired of seeing people in the blogs casually claim that any of the top-tier Dems could get us there. This is probably true--and besides the point. They all could win, and they all could lose. The important question is: who is most likely to win?

But unlike the guy who has to buy his own ticket to Europe, each of us only gets one vote in the primary.  Our vote is very unlikely to make the difference, and even the astounding power of our blog rhetoric is unlikely to swing enough votes to make a difference.  That's just reality.

With that reality in mind, I wish the electability discussions didn't focus so much on trashing the electability of the other candidates.  Not everyone is going to have their #1 choice become the nominee, and I don't think the kind of arguments that go like "Obama would get crushed in the general election" or "Clinton would lose us both houses of Congress" are really conducive to all of us uniting behind the eventual nominee.

The reason why some of us like to emphasize that there are three (or more) good choices is to help people accentuate the positive about their candidate of choice, rather than trash the other Democrats as though they're utterly worthless.  And to be clear, I'm not saying this diary is negative, I'm just addressing this point of why it matters that we have several good choices.

Also, you have to accept the fact that electability discussions are just going to leave some people cold.  After all, if an undecided voter asks you why you like Edwards, you're going to talk about how you like his progressive policies and framing and how he has the best chance to move the national conversation to the left.  I assume most of us wouldn't tell an undecided voter "oh, I support him because he has the best chance to win."  There's not a whole lot of passion in that argument, even if it's true.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:46:58 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 4)

All fair points. I didn't trash the electability chances of Obama and Clinton; on the contrary, I pointed out that they all could win and did the best I could representing their counter-arguments.

And I agree that electability arguments are not what I'd use to rally people; that's why I generally don't discuss electability. But it's worth discussing from time to time, especially among savvy voters.

Plus electability seems to be a major concern for unions in considering endorsements.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

I don't disagree with your conclusion but think it is important to support your beliefs rather than voting to be on the winning side.  There are many who seem to support HRC only for the reason that they think she will win and they want to be on the winning side.  For those who honestly believe in her, I have no quarrel.  Personally, I'd rather lose than compromise my core beliefs.  For the SEIU to refuse to commit to Edwards although he is clearly their choice is cowardly.  Having been born during FDR's first term, I see Edwards as the closest to FDR's governmental philosophy and the leader we will need for the times ahead.  I favor the Edwards-Obama ticket and believe that we would all benefit from government of the people, by the people and for the people; enough of the trickle down BS.


by lobo charlie on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:54:34 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 4)

I agree. I guess I should have pointed out that his progressive platform and committment to progressive principles are the main reasons to support him. That's what I usally discuss when talking about Edwards; this was a departure for me.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 12:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

I'll ask again.  Where in his Senate career did he demonstrate a firm commitment to progressivism?  What bills did he sponsor?  His term in office was a period when he had the opportunity to affect change and I place more weight on his record than campaign rhetoric.


by realistic democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clearly their choice? (none / 0)

Says who?

Marc Cooper has a nice analysis of this Labor Pains for John Edwards

Obama's reception at the conference was as good or better then Edwards'

But to Edwards' dismay, rival candidate Barack Obama --who appeared a couple of hours earlier-- also evoked a raucous, cheering reception when he asked the labor audience: "Who is talking about your agenda?...Who can change politics in Washington to make that a reality?"

Just because Edwards has been a national figure longer then Obama does not make him a better union candidate.

But Obama also boasts a long pro-union record, specifically working with SEIU locals in his home state of Illinois. As his campaign gained national traction so did his union support.

And SUIE have to be realist with their endorsement.

SEIU officials are openly concerned that their once-favored Edwards is running a distant third in most national and state polls (with the exception of Iowa) and may no longer be a viable candidate, no matter how many union resources are poured into his campaign.

The SUIE also has a main goal of assuring that Hillary does not get the nomination.

In addition, sentiment against Hillary Clinton runs high within SEIU ranks and some union officials are concerned that endorsing a third-running Edwards would only help split the national anti-Clinton forces. "Look, in the end, we're going to have to choose either Obama or Edwards if we want to stop Hillary," said the SEIU political organizer. "While Edwards might have been our first choice, Obama would also be great and he's looking like the most powerful challenger to Clinton."


by JoeCoaster on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

I see a lot of similarities in the way a President Edwards would govern with the very pragmatic and charismatic Roosevelt.  Roosevelt was determined to move the country quickly around.  So he tried ideas.  If they failed, he would try another.  He was in there working.  He tried those new fangled ideas of Keynes.  We need to go back to the those ideas.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

Electabily is an issue because last time the Democratic Party got it wrong, and so there is fear out there. SEIU is showing some fear.  In our caucus, the Kerry supporters were unable to express their reasons for us to switch to him, away from Dean and Kucinich.  Why? They didn't have reasons, they had fear that the others wouldn't be elected. They clung to Kerry and their fear.

So cast off fear and look at the stats. Who's ahead of the Republicans? Edwards in nearly every poll match-up. Who is ahead in Iowa? Edwards, because the people like him. He isn't running ads - he's running a smart Iowa campaign. Who can beat any the Republican candidate with a margin and who can bring a southern state or two, for a margin? Edwards who is collecting 1/3 of his funds from supporters in the south. He has raised about $25 million so far which is a lot.

http://johnedwards.com/action/contribute mygrassroots?page_id=MjgxOTc


by mrobinsong on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:01:57 PM EST

I like it. "Cast away fear". That's (2.00 / 1)

the ticket. That's the whole ball game right there.  Vote your heart and your head and don't let anybody talk you into the Democrats have to run on being strong on terror meme.  Whoa, talk about a terrible terrible election season if Hillary and Rudy duke it out as to who is the toughest and who can play the fear card most effectively.  

Haven't we all been there and done that.  Time for returning to a strong confident America, not bully crouching in fear America.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And it's pretty (2.00 / 3)

astonishing to me that Bowers would considering endorsing a conservative Democrat based on this one issue.

Richardson, you'll recall, called his pushing NAFTA through the House one of his proudest moments and he supports a balanced budget amendment to the constitution, which is an insane idea, and he often using rightwing frames, attacking, for example, "tax and spend Democrats."


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:06:48 PM EST

It is astonishing to me too (2.00 / 2)

Bowers has placed all his eggs in one basket and has put blinders on about other issues or even about the details of the Iraq fiasco.

Richardson shifts positions too often for me to trust him at all.

It is clear that the Dkos community has dropped Richardson where once he was on the way up.  

Bowers is behind in his assessments.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Three Tiers (none / 0)

    I believe the Democratic primary is nearly done. That is why Senator Clinton did the victory lap this Sunday to all the talking-heads'shows.
    There is the bottom tier candidates: Richardson, Dodd, etc. Then you have the top tier: Edwards and Obama. At the very top you have the winning tier: Senator Clinton.
     But what is very telling is that the Clinton machine put together a masterful campaign with major league players. Trippi does not have the experience to fight a full scale war.
      It is hard to imagine what would trip up the Clinton campaign at this time. However, you never know in politics.

by joliepoint on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:26:23 PM EST

NOBODY HAS VOTED YET (2.00 / 2)

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!  NO ONE WILL VOTE FOR FOUR MONTHS.

QUIT BUYING THE CRAP THEY'RE SELLING.  IT ISN'T CHOCOLATE, NO MATTER HOW THEY WRAP IT.


by DrFrankLives on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

It is seeming like Open Left is neither open nor left. Maybe ClosedLeft if we judged the site only by Stoller's posting.

Chris Bowers was an amazing writer on MyDD. The quality of his writing, his arguments and his analyses have gone downhill perciptiously since he's started writing at Open Left. Why are these people nitpicking and attacking the major Democratic candiates at every opportunity? It seems they are more passionate about this then beating the Republicans. Haven't we had enough of this purity troll nonsense?

Banning people who only agree with 95% of what you believe is something the conservative blogs do. That's part of the reason why the conservative blogosphere hasn't grown nearly as fast as the progressive one.


by College Progressive on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:40:30 PM EST

Hmm (none / 0)

I have problems with both Bowers and Stoller but as a candidate diary, this seems to be more about you than Edwards.

I can not imagine your ego is larger than mine but I would never use my candidate diary except to argue for Dodd.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:52:45 PM EST

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 3)

My ego is large, what can I say?

But I did think it was worth discussing the concept of supporting a candidate.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 01:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New York culture? (2.00 / 2)

I think this is another midwest vs. New York stylistic thing.

I am sorry you got banned, though. I did not think your arguments merited banning, even if they were directed at a front-pager.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:27:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New York culture? (2.00 / 1)

Hey, I'm from Maine, born and raised.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 05:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 2)

Still.  It needed to be said, BTD.

Gatekeepers is the game.


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 2)

Actually I say it all the time.

I say it today at docudharma.

But, my choice at least would be not to do it in my candidate diary.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand. (2.00 / 3)

I will have to check out docudharma.  Buddydharma's new place?

I do find the opposition to politcial activism on a political blog quite strange.

And the hate directed at me by a few just amazes me.


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 3)

I would not venture a guess frankly.

I did not like their work here and I do not like their work at Open Left.

And the feeling is mutual. They do not like my work anywhere.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 2)

I find it interesting because I see them copying you.

You chose a candidate that was focused on an issue important to you - Dodd on getting out of Iraq.

The key for you seemed to be that he was in a position to influence other senators NOW.

Stoller and Bowers couldn't choose the same candidate as you,  
so picked a differently one with none of the advantages that Dodd has and all of the disadvantages and more.

I like Dodd and I like the way you have promoted him.  
I think you have been effective even on Dkos his numbers have improved.

I still think Edwards is the right nominee, but these other contests are interesting to watch.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 1)

Well, Dodd has pretty good progressive cred across the board, (although I wish he were better on tax issues) whereas Richardson is a corporate Dem who stumbled on a single position that they like.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

Well, if that is what they are doing, they are confirming what I have always said, their focus is on 2009, not 2007.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 5)

Chris and Matt are so self-important right now it is painful to watch them.  Did you see their spot for Richardson?

If that's not an endorsement, what do they call it?

Are they shilling?  Do they have no right to write what they do?  

The video is so bad, I expected Rob Corddry to come on and mock them.


by DrFrankLives on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:02:16 PM EST

Love the "not an endorsement" line (2.00 / 2)

I'm Bill Richardson and I approve this message.

Totally absurd. As they most often are now.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 1)

What was funny was when Stoller waxed in the ad about Richardson's experience--it was straight out of his campaign lit.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A still non-committed voter responds (none / 0)

Personally, I don't get the faux outrage that resounds through the leftnet whenever a supporter of candidate A actually writes something supportive of candidate A.   As far as I'm concerned, so long as said supporter identifies him or herself as supporter (paid, volunteer, or simply 'in the camp of') - go for it.

I actually disagree about it being "easier" to get behind a candidate.   This will be my 9th federal election - 5th presidential - and this is the first time I've found myself this "deep" (accepting that we're 'deeper' earlier than we used to be) in the primary season without a horse in the race.

I got behind the man from Hope long before he became The Man from Hope.

I backed Bradley well before the NH and Iowa primaries/caucus.

I fell for Howard Dean more than a year before the first primary because this feisty small state doctor seemed to be the only the one saying "STOP!  What is this Iraq madness?  And why are we playing lapdog to the boy king?"

It's foreign territory - still trying to make up my mind this late.   The upside is that my indecision doesn't come the lack of a candidate I like, rather no one has been able to break out of the pack.   There are 3 candidates (Obama, Edwards, and Dodd) with a good chance at my primary vote -- and another 2 (HRC- rising, Richardson - fading) still mathematically alive.

So... since I'm not likely to afford a private audience with each to make my choice, I offer this advice to each camp's proxies... for whatever my lonely vote, meager wallet, and sparse phone banking/door knocking time is worth:

1. Drop the electability crap.  Any attempt to use "electability" as a reason for support turns me off big time.   I heard it plenty in 2004 when the "unelectable" Howard Dean lost out to the "pretty resume - he must be electable" John Kerry.  Let's just all accept that basing our primary votes on amateur analysis of whom some caricature of Joe Sixpack, 10 states away will like in the general is stupid.  I'm not saying polling is stupid, I'm saying picking a candidate this way is stupid.  The very reason a lot of people coalesced behind Kerry (hey, he's a decorated veteran!  THAT's what we need in the midst of a war - it'll play in Peoria) was in fact a minus in the general.  I know plenty of vets - some of whom would have voted Dem - that thought his front-and-centering of his service record was uncouth, gaudy, and a damn poor reason to vote for him.  Not being a vet - I won't speak to the first 2, but I agree 100% on the last.  That's not to say he couldn't have "used" his volunteering, service, and subsequent activism to weave a good narrative, but he didn't.

2. Don't be afraid of challenging me/my opinion.
No, "lobbyists are people too" won't do it, but a well-thought, considered response (admittedly not possible in a forum or debate) will.  I'm willing to have my mind changed on an issue.  I'm willing to even bite my lip and support a candidate that DOESN'T change my mind -- but demonstrates sound reasoning, a willingness to truly listen and consider alternatives, etc.   In fact - I'd much rather hear about issues where I do NOT share common ground with a candidate than to hear the red meat, clever quips, or thundering bombast on issues where we concur.  

3. Don't be afraid of "flip-flops" - but show me they were considered changes in opinion, not finger-to-the-wind panders.
...and I've give this Edwards - his biggest advantage (in my mind) over HRC is that he's owned up to the Iraq vote as a mistake and will do everything in his power to fix it.  Kudos.  No one's perfect - the best among us recognize that and don't treat every vote or statement as death pact.  Give me sound reasoning - anecdotes, someone you met, something you read, whatever - so I can understand how and why you changed your mind.  Show me it was a true change of heart - not a triangulation.

4. While I enjoy the 'Inside Politics' as much as any DD reader/Kossack/etc - hell, that's why I'm here - it won't influence my vote.
Fundraising numbers are interesting to digest- but just like 'electability' - I'm not jumping on a bandwagon.   The same goes for "crowd sizes" (Obama proxies - I'm looking at you) or "ground game operations" (ahem...).

5. Don't assume anything about me.
Just because I toss aside 'electability' (noticed that's a big peeve of mine?) doesn't mean I'm a Kucinich backer.  In fact, electable or not - I think DK would make a poor president.  I think he's got a history of being all over the map on issues and while I think Iraq was a mistake that became a disaster, I hardly think a "Department of Peace" solves terrorism.  I live in the real world.  Don't assume, too - that I'm too dense to understand how Senate voting works (for example... or how state government works... whatever).  I'm well aware that one could easily take a voting record and spin it like a top - so I'm not expecting a vote by vote breakdown.  Gimme some examples... why you voted for cloture on this amendment.. why you voted against the final version of bill A.  


by zonk on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:03:55 PM EST

One point for Edwards I think we can agree on... (2.00 / 4)

I liked your well-thought-out points of advice. One point I'd like to make:

Edwards, with his polling strength in Iowa, has pushed the other top-tier candidates in the correct direction on a number of issues, including real universal health care that could lead to single-payer, cutting off Iraq funding if there is no time line, rejecting corporate lobbyist money, and telling the right-wing noise machine where to stick it (go to hell, Fox News).

So while I understand your distaste for "electability," I doubt Edwards would have been able to drag Hillary and Obama so far so fast if he didn't have the numbers in Iowa, not to mention the numbers in head-to-head polls against Republicans. A candidate's perceived strength and his ability to frame the policy debate are intertwined.  


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A still non-committed voter responds (2.00 / 3)

Zonk, you're my kind of liberal.  I don't write diaries over here much.  I wrote one once that was recommended called "All Our Candidates are Salespeople.  And I'm Buying What Edwards is Selling." A president needs to have a vision and also be able to pitch his vision and the policies of that vision to the people in a real democracy.  He can then instead of just playing back room politics, take his case to the people directly.  That's one of the reasons that I liked Edwards back in 2003 when I was going back and forth between him and Dean.  

I love Dean.  Met him a month ago and got to talk to him for 20 minutes. He and I have a similar style of talking. But I picked Edwards. Edwards training as a trial lawyer really shows and is what we need right now; a good lawyer.  He can pitch his ideas  by weaving a narrative and then making all the right points. And he doesn't come of as brusque as we Northerners do.  

But it's really his message and his vision that sold me.  William Saletan said in 2004 that Edwards had a more sophisticated version of Al Gore's populist message.  Al Gore said he would fight the powerful because they were powerful.  Saletan said that Edwards added a moral dimension.
"The Economy Depends on Virtue as Well as Money and virtue lies in work." His narrative about how we must return to rewarding work over wealth is similar to Bill Moyers' plea to change our story from the Gospel of Wealth back to the American Dream.  It appealed to me as a big  picture person.  And the specifics of the plan appealed to my rancher husband.  He likes to see the repair manual before buying.
I'm working on another diary about Edwards with that theme.  I hope you will read it.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 3)

Open Left is neither Open nor Left.

The Gate Crashers now are Gate Keepers.

What I have never understood is what made Bowers' and Stollers' opinions so special.  Didn't Jerome build MyDD?  


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:10:09 PM EST

I self imposed won't visit the (2.00 / 3)

site...

If someone wants purity supporting Kucinich I understand.

supporting a candidate like Richardson, that has no chance of making it yet helps assure  a neocon is unforgiveable to me.


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (2.00 / 2)

I am becoming more and more impressed with Jerome and Markos for having the wisdom
and confidence to allow free flowing arguments on their sites.

It is a huge service to the progressive community and to Democrats.  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"OpenLeft" is seeming to be (2.00 / 3)

increasingly less open and not exactly left in its rigidity of thinking.

I was also banned there very early on for daring to question the wisdon of them frontpaging a representative of Vote Hope, a very questionable PAC which even the Obama campaign has since asked to cease its operations.

Their latest banning of someone like David should be of great concern to not only all supporters of any presidential candidates but of anyone who actually believes that the progressive movement is furthered by honest and "open" debate.

The gatecrashers are becoming the gatekeepers.


by okamichan13 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:16:19 PM EST

became, not becoming. (2.00 / 3)

They also are less and less relevant.  Richardson.  Give me a break.    


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: became, not becoming. (2.00 / 3)

They had some bad luck in that the day they jumped on the Richardson bandwagon completely with that ad Richardson cratered in the DKOS straw poll.

Sort of left them naked as Netroots leaders.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Naked as netroots leaders. (2.00 / 2)

LOL!

Well said.  


by TomP on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:57:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

People seem to be looking (2.00 / 1)

at his positions in other areas as well and finding it wanting.

At the AARP debate in Iowa last week, he  repeated that universal health care can be had for free. He also said social security can be "fixed" all by itself by having a better economy.

Its hard to take a candidate seriously on ANYTHING that says this kind of stuff.


by okamichan13 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Apparently challenging Richardson (2.00 / 4)

or those who support his "position" gets you troll-rated and banned - check out the zeros:

http://www.openleft.com/viewRating.do?ra teCommentId=12113

That seems about as abusive a troll rating for disagreement as ever seen. And by the site admins no less. What a joke.


by okamichan13 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Apparently challenging Richardson (none / 0)

It does look like the troll rating was excessive in this case. I dont have time to check to see if Stoller and Bowers  clarified anything they found false in his comment before that.

I wouldnt have troll rated it.


by Pravin on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The larger problem with it (none / 0)

for me was that as site admins and frontpagers, I think there is a greater responsibility to be very careful about directly trollrating posts - especially on a widely-read progressive blog (and banning people for that matter).

Especially given the connection now between the site owners and the Richardson campaign.

Of course site-owners can do whatever they like pretty much. But that doesn't mean they should. And these kind of actions in the end seem to run pretty counter to the promotion of progressive ideas and open debate in a progressive blogosphere. In other words, it hurts the cause.


by okamichan13 on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "OpenLeft" is seeming to be (2.00 / 3)

More like "Crashing the Cloakroom".  I take that back.  More like "Trying to Sneak into the Cloakroom".  


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "OpenLeft" is seeming to be (2.00 / 1)

I was there for that thread in which you got banned. You raised an entirely legit criticism.

They seem to want only commenters who defer to them.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:15:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

He didn't seem to help much in 2004.


by MNPundit on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 02:59:55 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

You know, I too can click on NEw Entry instead of New Diary and put an item on something I feel is more important. I would hope you would use it wisely instead of using the front page space on a personal dispute. This would have been better as a diary.


by Pravin on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:11:08 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm starting to think I shouldn't have used this as a place to air my dispute, but hey, people seem to be interested in it.


by david mizner on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

Most of the comment here are regulars that would have commented on this if it was in the diaries as well. And almost none of the comments are about your candidate. Taking a dispute you had on another site to the front page here is simply not classy. You weren't given front page access to do that.

I am sorry that you got banned but I really think you dropped the ball here as a candidate spokesman. Bad form.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 06:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

david's banishment (2.00 / 1)

I don't often comment here. However, I wanted to lend support. The argument was ridiculous, and the banishment wrong.  I was considering opening up an account at open left to critique the Richardson ad. (I did not like the music, and I did not think Richardson should be in black and white.) However, I won't comment there if I have to be worried about banishment all the time. Please continue to allow dissenting views here.


by JennaV on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 03:12:37 PM EST

We've had our differences, but... (none / 0)

Actually, we've not just had our differences, David - I've said some pretty harsh things to/about you on occasion.

But I've got to take your side on this one.  I don't know what's gotten into Chris and Matt since they opened their own site - they used to be my two favorite people in the lefty blogosphere.  But since they left MyDD, they've been getting shriller by the minute.  This is just the latest for-instance.  

And you're right - none of the other A-list bloggers wants to say anything.  (Some of them have to have noticed.)  Things are getting a bit too cozy at the top.

And I'm with you in liking a good debate.  On sites like MyDD or OpenLeft, that are devoted to the goal of the progressive movement's political success, it makes sense that the debate would be limited to those who desire that success.  But that still leaves a lot of room for debate, without its turning into the proverbial circular firing squad.

I'd had great hopes for OpenLeft when they started it up, but I don't spend much time over there anymore.  Those guys have just gotten a bit too much for me.  I wish it wasn't so, because when they were here, they were the best.


by RT on Tue Sep 25, 2007 at 04:03:45 PM EST

Re: A Shill Speaks + Electable Edwards (none / 0)

Polls show Hillary Defeating Guiliani by a wider margin than Edwards and Obama while Edwards defeats Thompson and Romney by a wider margin than Hillary. I understand why.

Hillary Vs Guiliani-
Guiliani is a pro abortion,pro gay rights, gun control Republican. He is a big city Republican. His percieved strength is National Security.

Hillary and Guiliani are both polarizing figures. They are equally despised by the other party base. Republicans hate Hillary. Democrats hate Rudy. Both candidates will split their support among Moderates and Independents. Democrats are more supportive of Hillary than Republicans are more supportive of Rudy. Hillary has an edge over Rudy.  

Obama vs Guiliaini-
Obama is a Black Liberal Democrat with a name Barack Hussien Obama. A White Suburban voter will less likely support an inner city  Black Liberal Democrats who name relates to a terrorist. Guiliani has an edge over Obama.

Edwards vs Guiliani-
Edwards is a liberal ideologue. He is part of the MoveON. Anti War crowd. However Edwards is from rural South. Edwards can put Southern States in play. Guiliani has a slight edge over Edwards.

Hillary vs Thompson. Thompson is a White Southern Conservative Ideologue Republican . Hillary is a NorthEastern,Midwestern/Southern Moderate to Liberal Democrat. Hillary has an edge over Thompson because She will win overwhelming majority of support from Independents and Moderate.

Obama vs Thompson. Black Liberal Democrat from the Midwest vs White Southern Conservative. This will be a 50-50 Election. Democrats are more supportive of Obama than Republicans are more supportive of Thompson.  

Edwards vs Thompson. A White Liberal Southerner vs White Conservative Southerner. Edwards can cut into Thompson's Southern Base. Edwards has an advantage over Thompson.

Hillary vs Romney. Romney is an inexperienced ideologue. He is a Non Christian and a Non Southerner. Hillary has a strong advantage over Romney.

Obama vs Romney.   A Black Liberal from the Midwest vs a White Conservative from the Northeast. Romney lacks the experience advantage Thompson and Guiliani have.

Edwards vs Romney- A White Southern Liberal vs A White Conservative New Englander. Liberals are more energized for Edwards than Conservatives are for Romney.

Guiliani's strength is Experience and Competence. Hillary can neutralize Guiliani's strength on National Security.

Thompson strenght is he is a Southerner Populist. Edwards can neutralize Thompson's support in the Rural South.

Obama has an adv