Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support Among Anti-War Democrats

In The LA Times' analysis of their early state poll from earlier this week, they explored their findings that not only do Democrats at large in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina feel Hillary Clinton is the candidate most likely to end the war in Iraq, but those that "chose the Iraq war as the most important issue" do as well. Comparing just the top 3 candidates, when asked "Regardless of your choice for president, who do you think would be best at ending the war in Iraq," results are as follows:

All Democrats:

CandidateIANHSC
Clinton333236
Obama151520
Edwards8912

Those that "chose the Iraq war as the most important issue":

CandidateIANHSC
Clinton303263
Obama171713
Edwards26149

Edwards's strong stance against the war is clearly paying dividends for him in Iowa among anti-war Democrats, but the fact that support for Clinton does not appreciably decline among those for whom Iraq is the most important issue (and in fact rises demonstrably in South Carolina) illustrates just how successful Clinton has been in portraying herself as an anti-war candidate despite having voted for the war AND refusing to apologize for it AND repeatedly saying she'll leave tens of thousands of troops in Iraq.

These results should perhaps come as no surprise, as they echo the findings of a national Pew poll from August that showed that the support each candidate receives was virtually identical among those that say the congressional leadership is doing "the right amount" to push back against Bush to end the war and those who say the leadership is "not doing enough." In other words, voters see very little distinction between the candidates on Iraq, despite the best efforts of Clinton's rivals to make those distinctions clear. Edwards: "no timeline, no funding!"; Richardson: "no residual troops!"; Obama: "I opposed this war from the beginning!" Yet those that count the war as their top concern pick the hawk of the bunch as their preferred candidate. It's enough to make Chris Bowers want to bang his head against flat surfaces.

In his post about The LA Times article, he writes:

Reading this article left with a tremendous feeling of hopelessness and disempowerment. Is it really possible to break through this bubble of disinformation on Iraq that Democratic elites are complicit in maintaining? [...] Can policy ideas change campaigns?

On Iraq at least, it's beginning to appear unlikely. From The LA Times:

Democratic pollster Dave Beattie, who is not affiliated with a campaign, said Clinton's rivals risked reaching a "point of diminishing returns" if they focused too heavily on differences between them and Clinton on Iraq.

Most voters, he said, are not concerned about the differences, given that each candidate is essentially critical of the war and promises to end it. [...]

"None of the Democratic candidates has a position that is outside the realm of acceptable for what the Democratic electorate is looking for," Beattie said, even though "it may not be their absolute favorite position."

But there's something else at work here: Hillary Clinton is benefiting from the fact that there is a distinct gap between how she is perceived by the party faithful and how she actually votes as senator and campaigns for president. For example, according to The National Journal's composite senate rankings for 2006, Hillary Clinton is the least liberal of the Democratic senators running, getting a liberal score of 70.2 vs. Biden's 77.5, Dodd's 84 and Obama's 86 (the 10th most liberal score.) But in a new Rasmussen Poll out today, more Democrats see Clinton as "liberal" (33%) than either Obama (31%) or Edwards (21%.) And while a solid 58% of Democrats identifies Clinton as moderate or conservative, a whopping 66% think John Edwards, the candidate running the most progressive campaign, is either moderate or conservative.

It's this very gap in perception vs. reality that has made it so difficult for Clinton's challengers to make any headway in the polls and as The LA Times article makes clear, it's based less on anything tangible than it is on the emotional associations Democrats have of her.

Gayle Moore, an Iowa nurse, wants U.S. troops "out, out, out" of Iraq as soon as possible. Darleen McCarthy of South Carolina fears that Iraq is turning into "another Vietnam."

But when these two Democrats vote in January to help decide their party's 2008 presidential nominee, neither plans to support the self-styled antiwar candidates. Instead, they are siding with the one top contender who voted to authorize the invasion and has refused to apologize for that -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

"It's just a gut feeling," said Moore, 53, a mother of five...

As Drew Westen writes eloquently in his book The Political Brain, if there's one thing we should take away from Gore's and Kerry's losses it's that people don't vote on policy and ideology alone. In fact, Westen makes the case that the emotional associations voters have for a candidate are a far better predictor of how they will vote. So Edwards's constant repetition of his call for "no timeline, no funding" won't necessarily move voters, but his saying it in prime time sitting at a desk with the American flag behind him (activating the "presidential" associations people have with that imagery) just might.



Display:


Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (2.00 / 2)

Edwards: "no timeline, no funding!"; Richardson: "no residual troops!"; Obama: "I opposed this war from the beginning!"

Voters view Edwards' and Richardson's positions as not credible, not realistic, or pandering.

They discount Obama's oft-repeated talking point because he was in a state legistlature and did not have a vote on the war. When he got elected to the US Senate in 2004, he voted for every war authorization and appropriations bill, just like every other Democratic Senator in the race.

Voters aren't stupid.

BTW, the polls show that, while the US public wants to get out of Iraq, they do not want a precipitous withdrawal. Voters want a measured, pragmatic redeployment from Iraq, which is exactly where Clinton has positioned herself.


by hwc on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:24:07 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

I believe this poll was done before Bush;s speech on Wed, and Edwards reponse. Speech of Obama's was made early this week again after this poll came out.

The position of all of these candidates will come out and their positions will be come much more known.

My prediction, Bush will draw down forces again in March and come Sept. He will have a residual force of just under 100,000 troops carrying out the mission of the Baker Hamilton report.

If we have a residual force of 60-70.000 troops, then their will be a blur between the republican and democratic candidates position on Iraq,

We will lose our edge on this issue,

Prediction all of the candidates will come to a position of no residual forces in Iraq, but some force structure in the region.


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

You could be right about Bush ending the surge in July 2008 (meaning back to roughly 130,000) and then potentially ordering further troop withdrawals leading into the general election --- but on the other hand, a lot of people predicted that he would do this before (for example, before the '06 elections).  It just doesn't seem like he cares anymore about public pressure.  

Regardless, it would only impact the general election right?  Since we're going to have a nominee as early as January or almost certainly by February, the situation in Iraq isn't going to change that much until then.  All that matters to Edwards, Obama, or Clinton is getting the nod --- Clinton is probably the most likely to tack back to the center for the general election, but I wouldn't put it past any of them.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

My prediction is that paetreaus will report back in March and their will be a further reduction that come July their will be under a 100,000 troops.

You are correct in that most likely their will be a nominee chosen, If Clinton, then how will she distinguish her position from the Republican nominee?


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

You're raising a really good point that doesn't get talked about enough.  Kerry got clobbered for equivocating on his war vote and the supplementals.  The exact strategy that Clinton used to win the primary, blurring the differences on all of these issues, is the exact same strategy that a Republican will use against her.  A Republican nominee could turn to Clinton and call it her war too.  


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

That's why she did not apologize for her 2002 vote.


by hwc on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

Kerry's problem was exactly that he didn't just come out and apologize and say it was a mistake.  He tripped over all the questions about would you do the same now if you know what you know now, etc, etc.

Edwards made the apology years ago and he's the better for it.  There's no reason Clinton couldn't have just done the same thing.  She so clearly made the wrong decision --- and not just in retrospect.  At the very least, she should apologize.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

Yeah, we've always been predicting Bush would do this or that in order to neutralize the Democratic advantage on the war, but it never happens.  If he were willing to do this sort of thing, he most likely would have pulled out some troops before the 2006 election, but he didn't even bother.

I think the real danger the Democrats face is that if they let the distinctions get blurred in Congress - if they let vulnerable Republicans get away with voting for non-binding measures to make it look like they oppose the war - then they really may lose the advantage.  It's like Nixon in 1972, or Joe Lieberman in 2006, for that matter.

Ending the war is the first priority, but forcing the Republicans to make a clear choice between sticking with Bush or joining the Democrats has to be the second.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (2.00 / 1)

It's clear you're just making up your own reasons and projecting them onto the electorate.

Is there any reason to think that the mother of 5 who has a "gut feeling" Hillary is the right candidate to end the war is basing her conclusion on the fact that Obama served in a state legislature?  Of course not.

And frankly, I think it's silly for you guys to try and discount Obama's position in 2002 as though it were cost-free, considering he surely knew there was a good chance he would be running for statewide office just two years later.  Had the war been a cakewalk - as some of the Democrats who voted for the war surely feared it might - his credibility for statewide office would have been shot.

I'm confident that if more anti-war voters were to see video of Obama's prescient statements on the war from 2002, there would be movement in Obama's direction among this constituency.  I'd suggest you thank your lucky stars that most voters simply won't ever receive that level of detail regarding the candidates, rather than pretend like they've all heard it already and made a fully informed decision.  That's just a silly thing for you to argue.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (2.00 / 3)

BTW, the polls show that, while the US public wants to get out of Iraq, they do not want a precipitous withdrawal. Voters want a measured, pragmatic redeployment from Iraq, which is exactly where Clinton has positioned herself.

I think that there is a growing realization that the withdrawl from Iraq, be it on a timeline, slow, rapid, total, residual, whatever, is also going to be the signal for a new wave of sectarian violence at extreme levels, and the possible balkanization and collapse of the Iraqi state. The fact that the United States has commited a vast and deadly error in the invasion of Iraq has set in. The fact that it is because of the hubris and arrogence of the Republicans, aided by a complict Democratic party has also settled in. The fact that getting out, perserving the lives of Americans and stemming the ruinious flood of money and men into the war is going to have to result in the cost of tens of thousands of additional Iraqi lives and the region virtually collapsing.

It's that hard reality that are putting even self-described 'anti-war' voters into Hillary Clinton's camp. Because as much as they want out, they also don't want to see the death and destruction that they will be directly responsible for as Americans in doing so. In Clinton, they are looking at a plan that strikes a chord of responsible statesmanship, provides an easy to grasp exit strategy, and most important of all, let's voters feel like they're not wholly abandoning the Iraqis to the situation that they put them into in the first place.


by dexf on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

This is my perception exactly. Thanks for stating it so clearly. When I saw Hillary in Portsmouth in early September, she emphasized that withdrawal had to be planned and carefully executed. I came away feeling that she had a well-thought-out position on how to end the war and occupation.

Edwards and Richardson seem a little too cavalier about how quickly a withdrawal can be managed.


by Coral on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

Voters aren't stupid.

Oh, you're being awfully generous! :-)

Close to half the electorate voted for George W. Bush for president not only once but twice.  

If not stupidity, than surely some close cousin to stupidity affects a goodly number of voters.

There's a guy here in Burlington (anyone reading this who lives in Burlington can back me up) who wears a tie-dyed shirt and has a bicycle with wheels covered with colorful pinwheels and he's rigged up a giant banner on this bycycle, which flys over his head, which says "Nader Lives!", and this guy spends all day, every day, riding his colorful bicycle around town, trying to encourage people to vote for Ralph Nader.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, that's what makes life interesting (none / 0)

the varied perceptions and personalities of humans.


by Coral on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, that's what makes life interesting (none / 0)

Yeah, colorful people on colorful bikes do make life interesting. But the 10,000 Nader voters in Florida who were convinced there would be no significant difference between a Gore presidency and a Bush presidency - well, I wouldn't say their perception of the world has "made life interesting."  The consequences of their misperceptions are too serious to shrug off as something that merely adds spice to life.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, that's what makes life interesting (none / 0)

Sigh, and the Supreme Court and Florida Republican vote-stealing had nothing to do with it.


by Coral on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 10:01:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

There's a guy here in Burlington (anyone reading this who lives in Burlington can back me up) who wears a tie-dyed shirt and has a bicycle with wheels covered with colorful pinwheels and he's rigged up a giant banner on this bycycle, which flys over his head, which says "Nader Lives!", and this guy spends all day, every day, riding his colorful bicycle around town, trying to encourage people to vote for Ralph Nader.

He's probably a DailyKOS front-pager.


by hwc on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

I don't get your remark. There are certainly people sympathetic to Nader who post comments on DailyKos, but Markos and the community in general and the frontpagers are not enamored of Nader, to say the least.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support (none / 0)

Right thats the way it comes across with Richardson and Edwards--pandering.  I am pleased that Hillary's support is so wide spread.  Democrats want a winner.  Clinton is a winner.  


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 02:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not at all surprising to me. (2.00 / 3)

I have been against the war from the beginnig, and I believe Hillary is the most competent person we could elect to withdrawal from Iraq.


by bookgrl on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:29:25 PM EST

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (2.00 / 3)

Based on what? She took the longest to admit something was amiss with the idea that going to Iraq was probably a mistake and even then it is not wholehearted. She still thinks there was no way she could have known back then it was a mistake with her mantra "IF WE KNEW THEN WHAT WE KNOW NOW". This tells me that in a similar situation in the future, she would make the same mistake again because we did know then a lot of what we know now.


by Pravin on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

When is any Republican candidate going to admit the war in Iraq was a mistake - When hell freezes over?    


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 02:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

bookgirl says: "I have been against the war from the beginnig, and I believe Hillary is the most competent person we could elect to withdrawal from Iraq."

I'd like to hear your rationale for this argument that Hillary is the "most competent person". That should require good judgment first and foremost, which Hillary lacks based on her track record.

This LA Times article was clearly biased toward Clinton, and is yet another plant piece by the MSM. Those who were interviewed and quoted are characterizing Hillary based on pure delusions of grandeur. Funny how those who voted for Obama or Edwards weren't asked or quoted on why they support them.

So...

- If Hillary "knows how the system works", why did she avoid reading the NIE report and trust George Bush when she voted to authorize the war? Why did she never support withdrawal from Iraq until right before the 2006 elections? Why hasn't she introduced or sponsored her own comprehensive legislative plan for ending the war?

- How can someone call themselves "experienced" when you go on record that the surge is working and that we're safer since 9/11? Hillary touts her work with the Children's Defense Fund for a year, but the vast majority of her legal career included representing Wal-Mart, Tyson Foods and other corporate interests. So most of her "experience" has been in boardrooms, not ambassador's offices or at summits in Geneva.

- Name ONE foreign policy related issue that she alone played a part in shaping. Just one. Sorry, but visits to China to speak about women's rights don't count. That's just PR, not a policy-related decision that affects our relations with foreign countries.

Bottom line: Hillary will NOT get us out of Iraq in an organized fashion. She will continue to capitulate, triangulate and take her support for granted. She will follow her military advisors due to her own lack of proper judgment, like she has in the past. And like her husband, she will betray the Left when it benefits her own self-interest. That, of course, includes stuffing her campaign coffers via felons like Hsu and indicted Iraq oil con Oscar Wyatt, who apparently gave kickbacks to Saddam.

Until the manipulation of the media via pundit schemes and selective polling stops, America will not be a true democracy. Leadership selection must return to the hands of the voters instead of via the BS machine we've tolerated for way too long. It really is time to turn the page.

by PD1769 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

"Another plant piece by the media."

So, we are getting to pick what framing we like better?

1. Voters are just dumb.  They don't know enough.  Screw the voters.

2. The media is planting pieces for Clinton.  They really like her.  They want her to win.

3.  But, once she is nominated, the media will gleefully tear her down.  The GOP candidate will have easy prey with Clinton, will eat her for lunch, and spit her out whole.  

Could the theme here be perhaps ALL OF THE ABOVE?  


by georgep on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

It's my opinion.  I find her extremely competent.  I'm not going to defend my opinion to you.


by bookgrl on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

I would hope you would elaborate since I really don't have a very strong personal preference myself.


by MrMacMan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

The Hillary bashing on some of these places I visit has actually pushed me into her corner.

Everytime I see her speak, watch her debate, I am impressed by the difference between what I see and the way the bashers have attempted to frame her and her positions.


by Coral on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

I will take that bet -- buddy.  Hillary will get us out of Iraq because its costing this great nation a fortune and making us look like idiots to the rest of the world.  She wants to grow the economy so that we can fix this nation's ills and she wants our soldiers home.  Why should Hillary follow Bush's policies?  What does she owe Bush? I guess there is a shortage of Republican Blogs so you want to come in here to propagandize us.  Forget it -- we are satisfied with our candidates.

Bill Clinton did not betray any American.  He created 22 Million new jobs and gave us a budget surplus.  We had 8 great years of peace and prosperity.

Our party doesn't care for imperial presidents.  Repeat after me.  We vote in our leaders and they work for us.  Got it?  One more time -- We vote our leaders in and they work for us.    


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 02:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is not at all surprising to me. (none / 0)

i also was against the war in the beginning and i am voting for hillary.


African-american for Hillary 2008
by terrondt on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re--This is not surprising to me (none / 0)

Add my name to that -- against the war from the beginning and I will support Hillary.


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 02:50:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

wrong (2.00 / 6)


Edwards's strong stance against the war is clearly paying dividends for him in Iowa among anti-war Democrats, but the fact that support for Clinton does not appreciably decline among those for whom Iraq is the most important issue (and in fact rises demonstrably in South Carolina) illustrates just how successful Clinton has been in portraying herself as an anti-war candidate despite having voted for the war AND refusing to apologize for it AND repeatedly saying she'll leave tens of thousands of troops in Iraq.

This is the typical disingenous Hillary bashing.
Hillary is not portraying herself as an anti-war candidate, she's portraying herself as a candidate who can actually end the war quickly in a responsible way.

She did not vote for the war, she voted to give the president the authority to pressure Iraq.George W. Bush abused that authority.

She refused to apologize for something she did not do. She did regret George W. abused the trust.
Had she known it today, she would not have voted that way.

She has never said she would leave thousands of troops behind. What's the difference between her plan and Edwards/Obama's?

To say Edwards' 'anti-war' stance is reaping dividend in Iowa is also a stretch. He's been living there for 4 years. It's not like his suddent conversion to 'anti-war' has gained him any traction there. On the contrary, his support in Iowa has been decling over the past few months.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:31:53 PM EST

Well said. n/t (2.00 / 1)


by bookgrl on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (none / 0)

That is bull shit. Then she is naive to have believed Bush.

58% OF aMERICAN'S IN nOV. OF 2002 BELIEVED bUSH WAS GOING TO INVADE iRAQ ACCORDING TO THE gALLUP POLL.

IF SHE WAS FOOLED BY BUSH, THEN SHE IS INCOMPETENT.


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (2.00 / 1)

Come on, be a little more civil.  By the way, the war vote was in October.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:45:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (2.00 / 1)

I feel passionately about the war. I have been to war and I don't want candidates lying about their reason's for supporting the war.

Also before the vote Bush was massing troops in Kuwait.

The question is that this is the most important vote any legislator can make. It is not just any vote.

My belief is that she doesnot think her vote was a mistake, but that the war was just not competently executed.

I don't buy that logic, for history in this region say's otherwise.

She needs to be held to the fire on this because she will not admit it was a mistake. If people cannot admit their mistakes then how can you believe them.


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (2.00 / 1)

Well, I don't know that she's lying.  It seems like you believe she was naive or stupid, as opposed to lying.  I confess, it's hard to imagine how anyone as wired-in to the establishment as Hillary Clinton could have thought the war wasn't a done deal.

I personally think a lot of the Democrats who voted for the war did so because of bad memories from the Gulf War; the vast majority of them had voted against that war, expecting it to be difficult, and then when the war was a cakewalk they all looked very silly.  I don't know if that was a factor in Hillary's thinking, because she hadn't been in the Senate very long, but I've always been convinced it played a big role overall.

Al Gore, incidentally, was one of the few Democrats to make the right call both times.  Smart guy, that one.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (none / 0)

23 other democrats voted against the war. Senator Graham chairman of the intelligence committe said after reading the NIE he was convinced that the intelligence was not that solid and he then voted against the AUF.


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (none / 0)

I recall Senator Graham saying he didn't want to invade Iraq because he thought Hezbollah should be the next priority.  It was an interesting position.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (none / 0)

I don't know if that was a factor in Hillary's thinking

If it was, that is truly sad because it means she put her political interests above the interests of the country.  Call me idealistic, but I expect our elected officials to vote the way they think is right and then let the chips fall where they may.  If they vote their conscience, but then end up on the wrong side of history so be it.  They made the wrong call and should be replaced in the next election.  That's the way democracy works.

But I find this sort of political positioning and scheming when the lives of good American soldiers are at stake to be disgusting.


by Will Graham on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:26:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (2.00 / 1)

My belief is that she does not think her vote was a mistake, but that the war was just not competently executed.

This sums it up really well.  I also get this feeling from her, and I've heard it occasionally from some Clinton supporters (in person, not on this site necessarily): the problem is incompetence, not strategy.  I don't even know exactly why I get this feeling, since she has started saying the right things ('It shouldn't have been unilateral, etc.')

It's kind of like her promise to have health care by the end of her second term and her delaying of releasing details:  it just gives you the impression that she doesn't really think they can get it done.  It doesn't create trust.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (none / 0)

We got your point.  For homework you have to call or write every Republican who voted for the war and filibusters every vote the Dems have taken to end the Iraq War.  Who of the Republican candidates have said they were sorry they voted to authorize the Iraq War??????


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 02:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong (2.00 / 2)

So why didn't Hllary express any outrage once Bush decided to "abuse that trust"? She made an appearance on Russert's show as late as the 2004 election period and still did not express any regrets. Her meeting with CodePink caught on tape indicates that while she would rather negotiate first, that it was not a bad idea to invade Iraq. she even insulted our intelligence by talking about women's rights in Iraq. Saddam wsa many things, but women had more rights in his country compared to the typical US Islamic allies.


by Pravin on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why I won't vote for Clinton (2.00 / 1)

Clinton's vote for war authorization isn't what gets me about her.  If she had reluctantly supported it based on WMDs, as Edwards did, that would be one thing.  It was her repeated selling of the al Qaeda connection that went too far.  
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members."
-- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:32:17 PM EST

Re: Why I won't vote for Clinton (2.00 / 1)

It's not prescience per se, it's lack of due diligence.  Getting it wrong might be more excusable if there was some indication the Senators made every effort to get it right.  There isn't.  Didn't read the NIE, ignored the countless reports, from what I can tell, were not at all skeptical of the President.

Sorry, that's a dereliction of duty.  They failed me.  Their responsibility, as members of the federal government, is to not only the voters of their home state, but also the country writ large, and they failed.  It doesn't necessarily rule them out, but it is a huge blotch on the resume.


by mopper8 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iowa Voters (none / 0)

The voters of Iowa will decide who the nominee is.  And the soft supporters in the rest of the country will go with whoever Iowa chooses.


by Will Graham on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:32:50 PM EST

Re: Iowa Voters (none / 0)

I dunno if that's true.  I think it's very possible for Edwards to win Iowa, Hillary NH, and Obama SC, and then what?


by mopper8 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill lost IA and NH (none / 0)

And still won


by dpANDREWS on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill lost IA and NH (none / 0)

Iowa had a favorite son running in 1992, which decreased the significance of Bill Clinton's loss.  He also entered the race as an underdog. Hillary, on the other hand, is a juggernaut.  If someone manages to defeat Hillary in Iowa--with the mighty political machine she has behind her and her 30 point lead in the national polls--I think that would be quite a story.


by Will Graham on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A different theory (2.00 / 1)

I think Clinton also benefits from the stymied efforts of Senate Democrats to end the war.  There are so many half-steps, so many different plans, so many amendments, and none of them ever meet with any success (so there's no pay-off for following them closely) --- such that people end up tuning out the Iraq debate.  The result is that a lot of people, myself included most of the time, just throw up our hands.

Second, interestingly, although lots of people want an end to the war of the Iraq, polls register a lot of ambiguity about exactly how: residual troops?  which deadline?  six months?  ten months?  Democrats haven't presented a united front until recently or presented a clear contrast.  Republicans like to mention the line that Democrats would withdraw "immediately" or "precipitously," even though it's BS, because they know that it's the contrast that polls best for them.  

The resulting confusion and lack of clarity seems to just benefit Clinton as the self-sold "experienced" candidate.  Clinton seems to benefit from the general feeling against the war without needing to make any of the hard choices about exactly how it should happen.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:47:08 PM EST

Re: A different theory (2.00 / 2)

There's something else, too, going on here.  Voters are, for the most part, irrational.  Not all of them, mind you, but a large amount of them.  People, in general, are irrational.  

So, Dems like Hillary, have positive associations with Hillary, are thinking of voting for her, and as such project onto her that which they hope she'll be.  Nevermind if her legislative history or platforms suggest she's not that.  It doesn't matter.  That stuff is only used to rationalize the visceral, gut, response.


by mopper8 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A different theory (none / 0)

This is why Bush became President for a second term. People went with "gut" feelings.


by Pravin on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A different theory (none / 0)

Sigh... you're probably right.  That's probably the most compelling explanation.  I kind of wish it wasn't true...

Though in the end, it's not like Clinton is the only one.  Edwards supporters nationally don't seem to have figured just how progressive he is --- (he does a lot better among Southern white males than among poor people).  And everyone knows, and I as an Obama supporter will admit, that a lot of Obama's support, or at least his hype, comes from people viewing him as a 'blank slate.'

Chris Bowers is kind of right in his frustration that campaigns just aren't about ideas anymore (if they ever were).

Even policy positions that candidates do take are viewed as just cynical political positioning to show how far 'left' or 'center' a person is.  The discussion in the press never has anything to do with which is the better idea.  For a glaring example, Richardson or Edwards of course don't actually believe a stand should be taken against residual troops, 'they're just doing it for pandering purposes' or 'to appeal to the far left.'


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A different theory (none / 0)

Even policy positions that candidates do take are viewed as just cynical political positioning to show how far 'left' or 'center' a person is.  The discussion in the press never has anything to do with which is the better idea.

Unfortunately, that's what politics always has been. As they say, the electorate never changes. Democracy is the rule of the people, and when the people reward lies and punish honesty, politicians lie. When they react xenophobically and motived by self-interest, we will have xenophobic policies centred around greed.

About the only change these days is that the public is immensely more connected than ever before. The internet, the blogs, all have jumped into the public consciousness of access in ways that are changing the traditional scope of politics. Maybe it will increase the level of engagement from the electorate in a significant way in the coming elections.


by dexf on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A different theory (none / 0)

psericks--Clinton benefits from being a strong candidate who is running a great campaign.  She benefits from being part of one of the most successful administrations of the 20th century.  Plus she benefits from being a woman.  We are sick to death of bloodthirsty individuals and wars without end. Its time we concentrated on Americans and our problems.  So if you see a Republican who comes closer to how you feel about the war in Iraq and our social safety net.  Go for it.


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 03:00:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A different theory (none / 0)

psericks--Clinton benefits from being a strong candidate who is running a great campaign.  She benefits from being part of one of the most successful administrations of the 20th century.  Plus she benefits from being a woman.  We are sick to death of bloodthirsty individuals and wars without end. Its time we concentrated on Americans and our problems.  So if you see a Republican who comes closer to how you feel about the war in Iraq and our social safety net.  Go for it.


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 03:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is what scares the HC the most (none / 0)

that voters will actually start to examine her Iraq position - we're there for awhile under Clinton...

That they will realize that her healthcare plan is being unveiled next week that as of now she doesn't have one....

That she defends the lobbyist system in DC..

Tell them all that and then poll them and then post the results


by merbex on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:58:27 PM EST

Re: This is what scares the HC the most (none / 0)

You sound like a broken record of a song that just sucks.


by DoIT on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Typical, attack the messenger cause you can't (none / 0)

defend the message or handle the message.

Very typical.


by merbex on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Typical, attack the messenger cause you can't (none / 0)

What is it that I need to defend? You are the broken record.


by DoIT on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Typical, attack the messenger cause you can't (none / 0)

I see this set of replies very enlightening and useful.

If you don't have anything to say about a message posted, why post about what you think about the post's author.

Ad Hominem attacks are fun, but easy to notice.


by MrMacMan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

The National Journal article measured only one year.  We have tons of data that shows Hillary Clinton's progressive credentials.

 For instance, govtrack shows Clinton as BY FAR the most progressive of the candidates running, she is labelled by govtrack as a RADICAL DEMOCRAT, meaning far-left.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.x pd?id=300022

Clinton's Ideometer:

Govtrack measures by bills written and co-sponsored.

Obama comes in as a "rank and file" Democrat, much closer to being a moderate/centrist Democrat.  

No data for Edwards can be had, as he is not an active Senator at this time, but it is clear that he would come in as a MODERATE Democrat in that survey, given his previous Senate record.    Which also brings up another point:  Edwards actual RECORD is decidedly moderate.  Many people don't believe in politician's rhetoric (anyone can say anything they want to get elected) but want to actually LOOK at a voting record.  When they do with Edwards, it creates a picture of two different politicians when measured against current rhetoric.    

There is also Progressivepunch.org, which dissected overall voting records and put Clinton's progressive score at 91.88%, ranked more progressive than Obama (and we certainly don't have to discuss Edwards' voting record when it comes to progressive vs. moderate in this context.)

http://progressivepunch.org/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=NYI&cha mber=Senate&zip=&x=51&y=7

So, clearly, some of what is described in this diary is based on incomplete data.    Some of the "reality" that was described isn't "real" after all.  

The problems Edwards and Obama have are very real.  Edwards has a very moderate voting record hanging around his neck.  He is trying to re-position himself as a new progressive, but has no such record, so he is asking us Democrats to take a leap of faith that his rhetoric does not match his record and previous "hawkish" demeanor.   Obama has positioned himself in some sort of post-partisan realm, has not shied away from shunning Democrats (especially those on the far left) as part of the problem, part of the reason we can't get along with Republicans.  He is also using the blogosphere a lot less than either Clinton or Edwards, which makes it appear as if to him the sphere is not really a needed element in this particular cycle.   I think voters have correctly identified the person who will take the DEMOCRATIC fight to the GOP.   If you look around you will see many articles written on Hillary Clinton trying to throw the country into ultra-left socialism, but that is the price us progressives have to pay for going with a true social progressive for the nomination.  Right-wingers aren't going to like it much.  


by georgep on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:59:12 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

George did you support her vote in 2002 on the AUF? Did you support the going to war by Bush in 2003?

Did you think it was the right vote, but that the execution of the invasion was done in-competently?


by BDM on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:07:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

bdm -- How many Republicans have even admitted that the war has been a mistake?????????


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 03:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

1) govtrack uses what bill Clinton sponsored to come up with her score... for example, amazingly, Joe Lieberman is somehow a 'liberal independent' on their scoring.

The guy who asked General Petraeus if we should be invading Iran is a liberal?

2) Clinton might vote the way progressives do, but she doesn't start the legislation, she doesn't make the speeches about returning our troops home. I haven't heard her say that guantanamo is illegal and is an abomination to international law.  


by MrMacMan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Since when has being a PROGRESSIVE started and ended with the WAR?  That is a strawman if I ever saw one.  All you have to do is look at Clinton's record to see that her legislation advanced would be decidedly progressive.  There is no question about it.  She initiated S-CHIP, for cripes sakes, as progressive a nuts and bolts program as you can get, and the attempted expansion to double up on money for it and cover a ton of adults (to the tune to get 12 Million of the currently 47 Million uninsured into the insured bracket with a program that amounts to an expansion of Medicaid for adults.)  Her legislation towards education, stem cell research, strengthening abortion, etc. will just be in ADDITION to always voting the progressive way when such legislation comes out of Congress and onto her desk.  

Lieberman is a schmuck on the war, but you can't make the statements you do vis-a-vis his voting record (which overall was in most cases liberal/progressive) and be considered knowledgeable.  


by georgep on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 08:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

looks like (none / 0)

same old, same old. This sort of rantings won't move a single vote, it's a complete waste of time.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:12:36 PM EST

Re: looks like (none / 0)

areyouready -- Yes.  It won't move any of us.  I liked them better when they told us Hillary was the weakest candidate.  Now because of her poll numbers -- she is the scariest most powerful candidate.  I have never been more proud of any candidate than I am of Hillary.  She has run a great race and will be a great president.  


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 03:17:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: looks like (none / 0)

I have never been more proud of any candidate than I am of Hillary.

Me too.  I was especially proud of Hillary when she forgot to read the NIE, voted for the Iraq War based on advice she got from her political consultants, and then stood by silently as thousands of good American men and women died in a foreign land.


by Will Graham on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 10:28:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: looks like (none / 0)

She didn't vote for the Iraq War.  She voted to give the President authority to attack Iraq if the UN Inspectors found WMD.  Bush lied to Congress and the American people.  It seems you have misplaced anger.  Are you angry that Bush continues to lie about Iraq and that he wants to leave the mess for the next President?  Are you the least bit annoyed that the Republicans continue to support Bush's Iraq policies?  


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 01:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: looks like (none / 0)

Are you angry that Bush continues to lie about Iraq and that he wants to leave the mess for the next President?

I'm angry that, as a Democrat, it looks like I will be represented once again by a presidential candidate who voted for the Iraq War.  I believe Dems should pick a nominee who clearly differentiates himself from the Republicans with regard to the most important issue of the day--to earn real credibility with voters.  With her support of the Iraq War, Hillary just muddies the waters and leads independent voters to conclude (justifiably) that the candidates of both parties are exactly the same.


by Will Graham on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 11:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: looks like (none / 0)

John Edwards co-sponsored the bill which gave Bush the authority to go to war if WMD were discovered.  Barrack Obama was not in the Senate at the time the vote was taken.  Biden voted for the Bill, Richardson was not in Congress.  I think you might want Dennis Kucinich because as far as I know he is the only one clean enough for your vote.  However, I do think that forcing a litmus test on Democrats is stupid when there is not one Republican who has not supported this war and does not wish it to continue for the next 50 years.  


by changehorses08 on Tue Sep 18, 2007 at 03:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support Among Anti- (none / 0)

I gotta tell you, this poll and your diary just blows me away. Hillary's lead is astounding. As an anti-war Democrat I fully support her to lead us out of this mess.


by DoIT on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:35:01 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton's Unlikely Support Among Anti- (none / 0)

i support any democrat to get us out or Iraq, but she doesn't put out the statements like Biden... she doesn't seem to be leading like a frontrunner should be.

why not say if she was president she would pull the troops immediately or something seemingly forceful.


by MrMacMan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

Suppose your favorite candidate wins the primary, goes on to win the White House in 2008, then the 2010 midterms arrive, and there are still tens of thousands of troops in Iraq and your Democratic President is claiming that the war IS over.

What are you going to do then?

If ending the war is really important to you, then you owe it to yourself to plan for this and other scenarios.


by astrodem on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:58:36 PM EST

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

I don't live in la la land. This war will end. Do you think that I and others opposed to the war won't keep up the pressure to end it when Hillary is elected?


by DoIT on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No kidding. n/t (none / 0)


by bookgrl on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

The last moment you have the slightest opportunity to have any influence on Hillary Rodham Clinton will be when you cast your vote for her, if then.  Believe me, she has so many electoral micro-positions she needs a spreadsheet to keep track of them.  I have had the dubious honour of having voted for her twice already as Senator and having observed her behaviour in office I suggest it is not nearly as big a thrill as you think it will be.  If and when she gets elected she will do exactly what she believes furthers her ambition and rewards those among her supporters who can deliver something more substantial than your vote.

If she ever does get to a second term I wonder what she'll do then for there will be no more stairs to climb but I assume she will content herself with installing DLC and Clinton loyalists in the leadership positions of the Democratic Party for a generation to come, whether anyone likes it or not.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:32:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

Except the voters in New York seemed to like her and record and ewarded  her last year a victory with even larger margin.

Your broekn record is just ridiculous.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

That's right.  Take a look at who she was running against.  And while you are at it, consider the influence she has had on the dynamics of Democratic politics in the state since her she was elected to the Senate.  If that is the model for her national party influence as president then let all Democrats who defy her beware.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

Um, her opponent was John Spencer, aka 'Who?'
He ran a pissy campaign and it was a gimme, I saw their local campaign office, they didn't even put out his flyers, they were only focused on downticket candidates and gave up on him.

And again, telling people that they are 'broken records' isn't helping convincing me to support my senator, (I live in new york) for president.


by MrMacMan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

If Hillary does not follow through o what she has promised i vow to fight her tooth and nail until she complies with what she has already vowed to do. I am certain I will not need to do this as I trust she will make things right.


by DoIT on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (2.00 / 1)

As I said I have been reading your posts and find myself in total agreement with your position on the war.  We just have a diametrically opposed view of Hillary's motivations and intentions.  You may have noticed that she is described frequently by mainstream journalists and progressive blog front-pagers as hawkish...  Why do you suppose they do that?  I respect your views but in this case I think you are projecting your values on to the candidate you believe is most likely to win rather than supporting the candidates who genuinely share them.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

"I have had the dubious honour of having voted for her twice already as Senator.."

And with this extreme bias we are supposed to take your point(s) seriously how?  


by georgep on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 08:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

George, I voted for her, how biased could I be?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

You call the honor "dubious."  That is NOT biased?  On what planet?   I have no idea if you indeed voted for her (seems doubtful, given your obvious extreme dislike on display here) but that has not much to do with my point.   Are you actually claiming now that you are NOT biased against Clinton?   I eagerly await your response on that one, because, honestly, there are a couple posters who appear more biased against Hillary Clinton, but you are damn close to them.  In other words, bias against Clinton oozes out of every one of your posts.  


by georgep on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 12:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

George, I voted for her, how biased could I be?  What part of that is unclear?  I think you have yourself tied up in rhetorical knots if you don't realise that voting for a politician is where the rubber meets the road.  And thanks for your suggestion that I am lying, not.  Sheesh.  Get a grip.  You act as though not liking Hillary is a crime or in bad taste, do you think it should be?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 08:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

Basically, George, I think Hillary is unrepentantly dishonest.  I have spent some of my time here over the last few months attempting to demonstrate, with examples taken from our current and recent history, how this makes her unsuitable as our president, as you know.  The AUMF vote is the most obvious example, but there are others.  I am not only entitled to my opinion I am confident I am correct for reasons already stated.  If she does get nominated and does get elected I sincerely hope events prove me wrong but I am not holding my breath.

I have found you so unwilling or unable to follow some of this discussion, particularly your argument that she is 'progressive' in the face of every evidence to the contrary, that any useful discussion with you about the direction she would take the party and the implications for future of the genuine progressive wing seems futile.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 08:35:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

Shaun, don't be pouting now.  I have provided ample proof that Clinton is indeed a strong progressive, a stronger progressive than either Edwards (his record is not progressive, his rhetoric is) or Obama (heck, she is clearly more progressive than "bi-partisan" Obama.)   You are just unwilling to see it.   It is hard for me to see someone voting FOR a candidate, especially in absentia from another country (England, I believe), who harbors such obvious dislike and animosity towards that candidate.  

Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as wrong as that opinion actually appears to be.  I am also entitled to respond to your bashes any way I see fit.  


by georgep on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 01:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

George, if you think Hillary is a progressive it just reinforces my thinking that there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on between her supporters perception of her and the reality.  Maybe this is the proof of her genius in politics, I don't know.  Haven't you noticed the description of her as a 'centrist' or even 'hawkish' in the mainstream media?  Do you think they are doing that just to be negative?  Blind Freddy knows the Clinton's represent and promote the centre of the party, what part of that do you not want to accept?  And please don't relish trying to make me look stupid on this, George, if embarrasses us both.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 03:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Most Likely Scenario (none / 0)

astrodem--we should we plan to be lied to?  I trust Hillary Clinton to end this war unless Bush makes it bigger before he leaves.  


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 03:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Note that Hillary Clinton voted for (none / 0)

Reid/Feingold and against the Capitulation bill.


by oculus on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:13:28 PM EST

An Inconvenient Truth (none / 0)


Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

H L Mencken - 1926


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:37:45 PM EST

Re: An Inconvenient Truth (2.00 / 1)

The final bastion of the sour grapers:   "DEMOCRATS ARE ALL STUPID FOR VOTING THE WAY THEY DO."

After all else has failed, after their candidates fail miserably to make a case with the voters, fail to connect, fail to avoid mistakes, run mediocre campaigns,  they STILL take the convenient route and arrogantly blame the "unwashed masses," the dumb voters.  It is what I have predicted a long time ago, and it is already occuring and will just get worse as we get closer to the caucuses/primaries.


by georgep on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 08:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Inconvenient Truth (2.00 / 1)

Take it up with Mencken.  You would have to admit that the extremely high polling data for support of Bush and the war in Iraq prior, during and immediately after the invasion is not very encouraging.  The notion that Hillary is highly rated as a candidate among anti-war Democrats seems equally inexplicable.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Inconvenient Truth (none / 0)

No, it does not.  I am against this war, want us out of there, but I am not in the camp of Kucinich/Richardson to immediately withdraw all troops, Obama seems more hawkish than Clinton (wants to leave a bunch of troops to train, protect embassies and personnell, engage in counterterrorism AND start up at Pakistani border to smoke out Bin Ladin.  Clinton's solution is just right.  Not as agressive as Obama, expanding it to the Pakistani border immediately, but a measured approach that brings troops out fast, but not too fast.  Most anti-war Democrats don't want immediate withdrawal of all troops, but an orderly withdrawal that keeps casualties as low as possible and does not throw Iraq immediately into chaos.  Their support for Clinton makes complete sense.  I am very educated about all candidate's proposals, plans, and I find Clinton with the best solutions (overall.)  Most Democrats agree with me.

  BTW, if Obama can't get his point across so the "stupid Democrats" understand what it is HE has to offer, then he is a terrible candidate and does not deserve the nomination.    


by georgep on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Inconvenient Truth (none / 0)

But the question is did you also agree with the majority of those polle