Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's smear on Hillary

Paul Hogarth wrote [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/6/102513/7704, "a smear piece on Hillary Clinton's appearance at YKOS.'"]. To his dismay, many non-Clinton fans who actually attended the event came to Senator's defense and have torn apart this worst hit piece.

People are still debating on dailykos, I'm attaching a couple of eyewitnesses' accounts for your entertainment...

Sometimes, we also need to peel off the 'left wing noise machine' and listent to what bloggers are really saying!!

Happy Days -


I was there, and Clinton was very impressive in the breakout session before the debate.  I'm an active Obama supporter who managed to see both the Clinton and Obama breakouts.  

While I will do everything I can to see that Obama is our nominee, I find all of the Hillary-bashing very disappointing.

Your characterization of her answers to your questions is unfair and reflects the bias you went into the room with.

For example, on the Telecommunications Act she candidly admitted that it was not something she was well-versed on and that she would look into it more.  She did refer to the fact that Al Gore was actively involved in shaping the bill on behalf of the administration.

But in any case, I think all of the Hillary-bashing is undeserved and unproductive.  She has worked all her life to make this a better country and world and deserves more credit and respect.

Kimberley -


I was there  
And, as a vocal Clinton critic, I can tell you she most certainly didn't just "survive" the convention.
She did well. Well enough to make me endorse her candidacy? No. But then none of them have blown my skirt up yet.
The main thing was to make sure that if she becomes our nominee (and I still believe she will) that I could cast a vote for her without being skeeved out. I can.She's smart. She is thoughtful. She's a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. And she is onto the right-wing.To use her words as it pertains to her performance as a Democrat, "I support what you do, well not all of it."
Face it, she's a heavy-hitter. She's the one to beat - still - on this field of contenders.She didn't win my heart but she eased my mind, a lot

Bendygirl -


I was there
And I met a number of Hillary supporters when I registered people.  Overwhelmingly, the Dkos community supports Edwards, it's very obvious, however, Hillary did get a couple of standing o's, as did most of the field.

Hillary also got the biggest hiss of all the candidates and I have to give her credit for how she handled that.  I didn't like her point, still thinks it's ridiculous, but she also didn't back down from it.

I got to go to the Dodd break out and I'm seriously leaning Dodd now.  I haven't looked at anyone since I decided against Edwards.  Seeing Dodd up there and even hearing Richardson (by far his best performance yet, but a very un-even campaigner and speaker), I could even be persuaded into his court.

AlisaR -


I was really impressed by her (21+ / 0-)
Recommended by: Tantris, nudger, Caldonia, Catte Nappe, Sopiane, homogenius, Pozzo, Alegre, arnott, idealistlefty, Jlukes, Alvord, BobzCat, brownsox, kindertotenlieder, bleeding heart, cpresley, KnowVox, binkaroni, LucyMO, areyouready
I talked with her as we were talking from the breakout to the plenary and she was SO well informed on Academic Freedom and really engaged.  I think she has more strengths than you are acknowledging.  Every single candidate has weaknesses--it is a question of picking which weaknesses are the least problematic.  I'm not at all sure where I'm going (unless Gore enters), but I don't think there is an obvious choice, and I think the lack of consensus is evidence of the fact that every candidate has difficulties.

Say all you want about Bill Clinton's triangulation--he was still the best president of my lifetime and I'd rather have a triangulator who gets things done than a perfect candidate who won't win.  (I'm not saying the others can't win, but I'm not sure, and, frankly, I'd like Obama to have a little more experience under his belt--I wish he'd run for governor first.)

Delaware Dem -


Actually, it has enhanced the prospect that she will be nominated, in my view.

Everyone I talked to was impressed by her, and while she may not win their primary vote, she won their general election vote and their support during the general election campaign.

binkaroni -


include me as one who came away impressed

Goldberry -


Completely disagree (22+ / 0-)
I attended her breakout session.  I got to ask a question.  Her answers were well informed, multi-part and policy driven.   This may not work for you but it was what I was looking for.  
Before Saturday afternoon, I was an Edwards supporter.  I was looking forward to hear him and hoped that the forum would give him the opportunity that the MSM has denied him.  But I found that he pandered to the lowest common denominator among bloggers and went for the "Drug companies are bad!  Corporations are bad!" money shots.  And let us be clear about this, he is just as guilty as anyone else on that stage of taking campaign contributions from groups who some of us would regard as less than savory.  Not only that, but his wife wouldn't be alive today without the dedicated contributions of the researchers in the drug industry.  So I found him to be hypocritical at best and contemptuous of us at worst.  He studied us, found our trigger words and used them shamelessly but I didn't learn one thing about his policies.  
Obama was hardly better.  
At least Hillary was honest.
Everyone chooses their candidates in different ways.  I have a list of qualities that I check off and the one with the most check marks win.  Yes, there is an element of gut feeling as well but I can't let it govern me.  That's what wingers do and look what we ended up with.
By my grading system of intelligence, experience, vision, and courage (among other things), Hillary is only lacking in the last category.  And I have to hand it to her, she did not buckle even when we booed her.  That says a lot.    
She has a very good chance of winning SuperDuper Tuesday.  Don't count her out.  
(Your mileage may vary)

majcmb1 -


I Was Impressed By Sen. Clinton Especially
her forceful reminder (in the context of lessons learned from her failed efforts to change healthcare policy) that in addition to a "Plan" you must have a "Political Strategy" to bring the country (including its institutions) along with you.

I'm still not committed but she may be offering the incremental transition we'll need (barring some social or economic cataclysm).  Both Obama and Edwards have the rhetorical skills to sway voters but I'm not sure they have the institutional clout/ access/alliances that will be required to wrench control of the media (for example) from the corporatists.

If our nominee takes over with less than a super-majority of Progressives (highly unlikely), his/her Change Agenda will face awesome obstacles (likely including significant numbers of Blue Dogs).  Sen. Clinton's not my first choice yet but she may be, as a practical matter, our path to the Progressive Congressional majority we need

Scout Finch -
I sat right in front of Paul, actually. I thought that for the most part, Hillary was impressive in the break-out session. I was disappointed that she blamed the Telecommunications act on Al Gore, but I would be interested to talk to Al about it as well. If he truly was the architect, I have a hard time believing that Murdoch buying the Wall Street Journal was not the end goal. As far as Hillary goes, I left the conference fully confident - for the first time - that if Hillary got the nomination that I would aggressively campaign for her.
Schwede -
I think she did great in the breakout session. My wife is a member of the NEA so I don't give a rat's ass if it was a plant. I liked her answer, it showed me that she had alot to say about it. I liked most of Hillary's responses and she came across as genuine, and stated her positions even if ALL of us don't like every single thing she said. Paul, you do not speak for all bloggers, especially this one. I was standing right behind you and even I couldn't understand where you said you were from. I haven't heard of you or Beyond Chron. But I guess we all have now, eh ?
Bill in Portland Maine -
Endangered her nomination? I think not. Couple points on which I take issue. First: Incredibly, she rationalized her refusal by saying that lobbyists "represent real Americans – nurses, social workers, and they represent corporations who employ a lot of people." This is incorrect. She said that not all lobbyists are big pharma and big oil and big whatever. She's actually correct that there are many lobbying groups that represent "real American interests." I'm not defending her overall answer, but you've misrepresented that statement she made. Second, my partner and I were in the breakout session, and when she got done with her answer on education, our jaws were on the floor. Yes, her answer was long and we can debate the appropriateness of that all day, but her knowledge and ideas and the way she presented that knowledge and those ideas were great. She knew---and knows---her stuff. Third, I take issue with this: Hillary lost even further credibility when she said that we are now safer than before September 11th. My recollection is that she was saying that some things have improved in terms of security. I never heard her make a blanket statement that we're safer overall. Although when she mentioned taking shoes off at the airport as one example, I admit I rolled my eyes. But I agree with her that some things are being done better in terms of national security. Sadly, a lot more aren't. Finally, I wouldn't call the reception to Hillary "tame." That's actually a swipe at the people who attended. We weren't tame...we were respectful and serious toward her. We were listening. We let her---and all the candidates---know in no uncertain terms when we agreed and when we disagreed. But we weren't puppy dogs wagging our tails. As for your question at the breakout session, good lord, kid...you asked her four questions in one, which I thought was a bit rude. In fact, there was an audible groan throughout the room when you kept piling one question on top of the other. Hillary managed to answer all of them without batting an eye. I didn't agree with all of her answers, but I give her credit for keeping track of all four issues you brought up. After the breakout session, the consensus seemed to be: "Wow, she's pretty good, and damn smart." So my opinion is that YearlyKos didn't endanger anyone except the Republicans.
Paul Hogarth, clearly and loudly, these bloggers have a message for you 'Stop the smear, you do NOT speak for me, you have no right to speak for the entire blogsphere!'. We are now seeing the frantic Hillary bashing after her excellent showing at YKOS. Why? The reason is simple. When people get a chance to see Hillary, they always come away impressed. They are jealous because their own candidates have no substance and everything is about empty sloganeering. To tear down Hillary, those haters have only one foxnews trick left, they are spinning like a top to try to create a false narrative on this site that bloggers hate Hillary. Fortunately, bloggers are not dumb and they are speaking out against these kind of cheap shot. This is getting amusing everyday! UPDATE: I just added Scout Finch and Schwede 's account of his/her recount. Please continue to add more eyewitnesses' account here, and I will update. We counter those hit pieces with FACTS, not FANTASY. Thanks, Bill in Portland Maine, I just added his eyewitness account. He is still undecided at the moment. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, HILLARY FANS. WE ARE STILL THE MINORITY HERE, BUT WE ARE FIGHTING EVERYDAY!!

Display:


Re: Eyewitnesses rebut (none / 0)

You know I just find it so comical . He claims to speak for bloggers and all of a sudden eyewitnesses start coming out to dipute your claim.

Lesson 1 : Do not claim to speak for a whole swath of people . Speak for yourself.

Lesson 2: Do not believe every crap a politician spews . Check for more information .

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obam as-k-street-project-2007-03-28.html

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/sen. -obama-finesses-his-lobbyist-ties-2007-0 4-19.html

Take this into consideration and your credibility on issues might be intact.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:18:41 PM EST

Re: Eyewitnesses rebut (none / 0)

"I was quite taken aback," he said. "He was very direct in saying that you're a lobbyist and we don't want contributions from lobbyists. But your wife can contribute and we like your network."

Ouch. Spin that...please.


by world dictator on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

as requested... (none / 0)

i knew this already -- before the twenty-odd times lori's attempted to smear barack (hillary supporters must be desperate).  i'm comfortable with the fact that he doesn't take money from federal lobbyists -- the people who actually call, make the appointment and ask for favors.  there is no perception of quid pro quo.  none.

i can't say that i'm at all surprised that his fund-raisers would look at barack's conditions and then figure ways around it.  fund-raisers always do that.  and if they get smacked down for it, there's always another campaign to go to.

in the end, you have to decide whether the hint of corruption matters to you.  it doesn't matter to hillary; it appears to matter to barack...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 10:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Second Hogarth's Screed (none / 0)

Made the Rec List, I reconsidered my initial responses to some of your Diaries.

It's clear that the mud must be slinged both ways.


by Edgar08 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:28:10 PM EST

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

Nice Cherry Picking on diaries.  As fair and balanced as Fox news.  You could've gotten us into Iraq with your methodology.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:31:28 PM EST

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

If she says that some people are disagreeing with Paul's account how should she provide evidence to counter it other than to quote from these people?

Areyouready never said all of dkos disagrees she just said a good amount of people are.


by world dictator on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

She is not merely disagreeing.  She claims Paul's account is a smear- a statement of fact.  To prove such, she would have to present all of the opinions of the conference and show that Hillary had overwhelming acceptance.  Sorry, but not the case, regardless of how much anecdotal evidence she presents, she is not proving her point that what Paul said was way off base, and therefore a smear.  In fact, Hilary received much negative response areyouready chooses to ignore.  Making a factual claim while ignoring relevant facts and then prenting that as "proof" is a textbook example of propaganda.

If areyouready had the class to accept Pauls article as a differing opinion and then claim that not everyone thought the same, then no problem.  Instead she name calls, labels it a smear and offers her opinion as fact.  If you can't see the problem with that then you have been watching too much O'Reilly.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

This is bullshit and you know it. If this article was about a different candidate and it was posted at Daily Kos it would be troll rated in a matter of minutes. The fact is that they have double (at a minimum) standards over there. At least here we can't change the tags on someone's diary. And the diarist can fight back if they feel they are treated unfairly. His diary IS a hit piece but so what?


by DoIT on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

Since this article IS posted at Kos, you are wrong, wrong, wrong.  Thanks for checking first.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 06:29:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's (none / 0)

No you are wrong. I know it is posted at Kos. I said if it was about another candidate, like Edwards for instance, it would be troll rated. But since it is a hit piece on Hillary it is just fine with the Kossacks. Wankers!


by DoIT on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 06:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's smear o (none / 0)

This guy's attitude is biased. I watched her performance and thought she did great.


by Dickweed on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:31:53 PM EST

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's smear o (none / 0)

Can you imagine how fast that nonsense made the recommended diary list.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary folks (none / 0)

Please recommend. We need to fight back smear with facts!


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:48:01 PM EST

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

Opinions are not facts, especially not when having been cherry picked as you have.  That's the Rush Limbaugh game. Well played, return his biased coverage with biased coverage of your own.  "Facts" indeed.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 01:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

Whoever watched the debate must have seen a very warm reception for Clinton, who used a lot of humor to disarm, and much applause, sometimes quite enthusiastic.   Paul is painting a false picture based on wishful thinking.  Just because one hates with a passion does not mean that that gives a free pass to distort reality as we all have seen it.  


by georgep on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

That may be true, but that is still opinion, not fact.  Perception and anecdotal evidence do not "facts" make.  This post is so Rovian as to do a disservice to the candidate it supports.  Paul is certainly welcome to his eyewitness account and analysis (especially backed up by Hillary's evasive answers, which oddly are not in dispute). But name-calling and presenting cherry-picked opinion as fact should not be the crux of a rebuttal.

And since areyouready has consitently degraded Daily Kos and its diarist as no-nothings, the fact that she is using them now as her primary source is incredulous.  It would be like quoting the conservative Politico as to who should be the Democratic nominee.  Wait, she did that yesterday.

Style or substance-your pick.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

I guess Paul's account is fact, and all other eyewitnesses' accounts are just fantasy.

No need to debate a person with such delusional thought process.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

That's not what I said, thanks for spinning O'Reilly style.  I said he is entitled to his opinion and presents it as such (backed up by evasive answers not in dispute).  You present opinions as facts.  That's dishonest.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

no, they are both opinions. I really didn't find his account that controversial. He asked a question about specific peices of legislation and got soundbite answers, not surprising necessarily, what was she going to do? immediately disregard 4 pieces of legislation she supported? So she gave a disapointing answer to him while others were very impressed. Whats the big deal here? Its not a "smear" diary, its an account of his exchange with the candidate you support. (and im not so sure you want to be the one throwing around "smear diary" talk, but that is besides the point)

Hillary did great all things considered, she handled herself well in an environment that isn't her home turf. She was funny and warm and acknowledged "hey i know im not the frontrunner here, but i respect you guys."
But she also did not rock the convention riding in on a huge armored white horse slaying the naysaying progressives.  


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

Claiming to speak for a whole community is not in his place . If he wants to render his opinion let him do that , but if you generalize " Bloggers didn't do this or that " then you are going to get a response.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

But you don't mind when areyouready applies the same tactic?


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

Honest question

1. Please explain to me how we should debate whether a candidate gives a good showing at a forum without using opinions?

2. How is this cherrypicking considering Areyouready is just claiming that some people in at YearlyKos liked Clinton's performance?


by world dictator on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

Honest Answer

1. Using opinions is one option.  Claiming them as "facts" is dishonest.  This is a Limbaugh tactic, not one progressives should emulate, regardless of the goal.

Another option on juding a forumm is to look at the veracity of the answers.  Before thsi weekend Hilary was number one on my list, as I did some pavement pounding for her Senate campaign.  Her bizarre response to accepting lobbyist cash, and her evasive answers in her solo meeting were disappointing and put me on the fence.  I am exactly the type of voter Paul was referring to.

2.  areyouready is cherry picking because she is claiming to be factual but only listing opinions that match her viewpoint.  There were plenty of folks like me disappointed by Hilary's substance, and their opinions are readily available. They were ignored by areyouready, and claims her opponent's opinion as a factual "smear" instead of a differing opinion.

Were she not claiming the opinions she posted as "proof" and "facts" then this would just be another pissing match.  What she is doing is pure propaganda and must be recognized as such.

Hope I answered your questions.


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 03:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

No response?  Well, thanks for engaging me with your "Honest Questions".  LOL


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

you may have noticed, but it doesn't appear that too many of hillary's supporters understand what "facts" are...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 10:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary folks (none / 0)

I don't know whether she received a warm reception or not because I wasn't there and the audio and video wasn't the best. But I do know she was respected and received quite a bit of applause and some laughter.


by DoIT on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's go to the video (none / 0)

TPM has posted a video with about 10 minutes of clips from Senator Clinton's breakout session, including Mr. Hogarth's question and most of the answer. The video includes Sen. Clinton's opening and closing remarks and enough crowd response to get an idea of whether or not Clinton's breakout session "endangered her nomination" as Mr. Hogarth argues.

Judge for yourself.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/0 8/tpmtv_hillary_clinton_yearly_k.php


by hwc on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 06:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yet, you got it dead on... (none / 0)

hillary's a pro.  she was nervous, she screwed up or miscalculated, and showed a hint of anger several times.  she actually needs more real tests like this before she goes against the big boys...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 10:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

more (none / 0)

I have added more eyewitnesses' account to refute Paul's smear on dailykos. It's a bit difficult to update here. Please go to the following link to read the update.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/6/1 31253/3087

Keep up the good fight!


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:22:49 PM EST

Re: more (none / 0)

It is almost too easy to update here. What's gotten into you? Don't tell me you decided to slack off a little.


by DoIT on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill (none / 0)

Bill in Portland Maine is actually outraged by this Paul's smear, he asked me to add his own eyewitness' account to my diary on dailykos.

He is still undecided at the moment. More people are speaking out against Paul's foxnews trick.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:42:55 PM EST

Re: Bill (none / 0)

Something about a pot and a kettle applies here....


by dhooters on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 02:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eyewitnesses tear apart Paul Hogarth's smear o (none / 0)

It's worth noting that a large number of the commenters quoted here are well-known dkos regulars.  Everything is cherry-picking to some extent, but these are not shills from Hillary campaign HQ.  They're well-established members of the progressive community.

It's also worth noting that Hillary is really, really good at winning over people who don't like her much.  She did it with the NYC firefighters and a number of upstate constituencies.  Like it or not, it's a strength of hers.

Hillary doesn't need to be loved by everyone to win the nomination, or to be elected President.  What she really needs is to move a sufficient number of people from the "anti-Hillary" into the "basically okay with her" category.  No one should underestimate her ability to do this.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 06:36:38 PM EST


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