On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field

Between yesterday's discussion of the potential for Chris Dodd's IAFF announcement to move him up in the polls and today's (see Bowers's Open Left post and BTD's diary) regarding whether Richardson's upward mobility in Iowa and New Hampshire is due to his call for 'no residual troops' in Iraq, I wondered just how fluid is the Democratic field?

By the look of many recent comments I've read, there seems to be the sense that the top three are pretty locked in place. There's no way we'll see the same dramatic shift that occured four years ago, people argue. The top contenders back then had soft support, this year's campaign has lasted longer and gotten more coverage than ever before. Maybe so. But others beg to differ.

Chris Bowers points us to an analysis by Mark Blumenthal at Pollster of the mid-August Michigan poll that showed Gore would lead in the state if he's offered as an option in a secondary question. In other words, after gauging support for the announced candidates, respondents were given the opportunity to switch their choice to Gore. When Gore was given as an option, Clinton went from 46% to 32%, Obama went from 26% to 10% and Edwards went from 16% to 8%, all of which gave Gore 36% support in the poll. Now while the methodology was out of the ordinary, Blumenthal's conclusion was clear:

But the fact that the simple addition of Gore's name to the list of choices shakes up current preferences to this degree tells us that the vote preferences we are watching are still tentative, and the Democratic race is still a long way from over.

In other words, as Bowers says, voters' support for the candidates, while holding steady, is still fairly soft. Now granted, a Michigan poll may not be the best measure since the candidates aren't spending much time there. What about in Iowa and New Hampshire? Well, the dean of Iowa's conventional political wisdom, David Yepsen sees an opening for an insurgent candidate there because of key vulnerabilities among the top three:

Edwards' populism sounds increasingly angry, and voters don't elect angry people to the presidency. Edwards has seen a clear lead in Iowa shrink to a statistical tie with Clinton and Obama.

Also, many Iowa Democrats are worried about Clinton's electability. She has moved up in Iowa surveys as she debates well and addresses the issue, but the question hasn't gone away and remains her single biggest impediment to the nomination.

Obama is vexed by questions about his lack of experience. He also has upset some Democratic constituency groups by blowing off a number of Iowa events and debates because he doesn't want to be seen with his rivals.

And with celebrity candidates like Clinton and Obama come big crowds and big security operations that make it hard for an activist, or a local reporter, to pose a question.

Yepsen is particularly bullish on Richardson's chances noting that his stated goal of a top three finish is the minimum he'd need to keep fighting but concedes it won't be easy. But is there an opening? Yeah.

As for the top three, Marc Ambinder has an interesting analysis:

John Edwards and Hillary Clinton have a mutual interest in seeing each other's candidacy prosper over the next four months.

Edwards wants Clinton's national poll ratings to rise, rise, rise. That way, if/when he beats her in Iowa, he will have slain a giant. Also, the thinking in Edwards land is that if Clinton rises, the press will conclude that Barack Obama is falling.

Clinton wants Edwards to keep his lead in Iowa and remain competitive nationally...Defeating Edwards in Iowa...could clinch the nomination for Clinton if and only if Edwards remains strong enough to be...beaten.

If a shake-up is on the horizon, it will take a significant event that gains enough news coverage to reach beyond the political junkies. Time will tell if yesterday's IAFF endorsement and its accompanying local events will be enough of a newsmaker for Dodd and if Richardson's persistent call for no residual troops against the backdrop of September's promised Iraq debate will do the trick for him. Certainly right now, those are the issues they're hanging their breakthrough hopes on.



Display:


F-you, David Yepsen (2.00 / 1)

How may completely bullshit, artificial, inside-baseball memes do you want to push in one #$%^&* paragraph?

Edwards' populism sounds increasingly angry, and voters don't elect angry people to the presidency. Edwards has seen a clear lead in Iowa shrink to a statistical tie with Clinton and Obama.

Also, many Iowa Democrats are worried about Clinton's electability. She has moved up in Iowa surveys as she debates well and addresses the issue, but the question hasn't gone away and remains her single biggest impediment to the nomination.

Obama is vexed by questions about his lack of experience. He also has upset some Democratic constituency groups by blowing off a number of Iowa events and debates because he doesn't want to be seen with his rivals.

I mean, seriously.  This is political reporting?

Why don't you watch Edwards on the stump...he sure doesn't seem "angry" to me.  And what's wrong with anger, anyway?

Voters are only worried about Clinton's electability because fools like you are pushing the meme, regardless of the facts.  And did you actually talk with "voters", or pull that out of your ass?

Obama's "inexperienced"?  Wow...new one.  And he ducked out of debates "because he doesn't want to be seen with his rivals"?  Really?  Not because he wanted to spend a couple days home with the family?  Or because there's an insane number of "forums" for this contest?  Are you a friggin' mindreader?

Grrr....


by rashomon on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:40:35 PM EST

Well said, Rashomon (2.00 / 1)

I'm tired of progressive bloggers uncritically passing along Yepsen's "wisdom." He's Iowa's Broder.


by david mizner on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 07:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: F-you, David Yepsen (none / 0)

I'd agree with you, but when I've canvassed in Iowa, that was one of the concerns people had with Hillary.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 03:51:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field (none / 0)

Keep in mind, Biden is about to hold some high-profile Iraq hearings, and will play a key role in the confirmation hearings for Abu Gonzo's successor. Throw in the Iowa ads, and he could move up as much as Richardson has and as much as we claim Dodd might.


Ever heard of a Blue Moose Democrat?
by Nathan Empsall on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:59:39 PM EST

September will end Biden (none / 0)

He will be voting for 50 billion more for IRaq.

That will be the end of Biden.


by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Blumenthal and Yepsen are wrong (none / 0)

But the fact that the simple addition of Gore's name to the list of choices shakes up current preferences to this degree tells us that the vote preferences we are watching are still tentative, and the Democratic race is still a long way from over.

No.  The addition of Gore's name means that Gore is a popular figure, nothing else. That Michigan poll is ridiculous.  One can't reasonably argue that any of the top three have soft support by including a candidate who isn't running and who isn't going to run.

Rashomon is right about Yepsen's so-called analysis.  I continue to say that the Clinton electability meme is a strawman. I think it was a mistake for Obama to drop out of the forums, but I don't believe for one minute that he did it because he didn't want to be seen with his rivals.  Also, Edwards is trying to draw distinctions between himself and the others.  He needs to be careful about it, but I don't think he sounds angry.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:01:39 PM EST

Re: Blumenthal and Yepsen are wrong (none / 0)

I too think its ridiculous to bring up a man who isn't running to show the weakness of our Candidates.  Perhaps Yepson could bring Bobby Kennedy into the mix or Mother Theresa.  I am sure either one would beat our current crop of candidates but they will not be running.  I think there is an agenda out there to once again make the Democrats insecure about our candidates and our vote.  The reality is the Republicans should be insecure.  They have nothing to offer.  There wedge issues are failing because of their hypocrisy. When Karl Rove tells you Hillary is dividing the Democrats -- He is scared to death that she will be the next President. He has certainly shown that he is no fan of our party.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:55:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field (2.00 / 1)

Seriously, Beeton, stop treating Yepsen like anything other than the Republican hack that he is.  It is people like you who give his opinion power.


Check out Bleeding Heartland for Iowa's only progressive community-oriented blog.
by Simon Stevenson on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:03:56 PM EST

Re: On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field (none / 0)

I do think there is a possibility that Richardson could break into the top tier if he keeps plugging away.  It's not likely, but it's certainly possible.  He's been inching up in the polls (very slowly) for the past couple of months, but at this rate, it'll be April before he breaks 20%.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:04:18 PM EST

I feel confident about this (2.00 / 1)

The month of Spetember will NOT focus on whether Bill Richardson will have residual troops in 2009.

The month of Spetember will be about leading on Iraq NOW.

Richardson is failing that test.

Edwards and Dodd are passing.

Incompletes right now for Clinton and Obama.

Biden we know will fail, as I view it.

Kucinich and Gravel will be in the right place but will they matter? Not so much.


by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:06:20 PM EST

On "electability" (none / 0)

You know I see a lot of people responding here as to how "electable" each candidate is or is not.  There's a great deal at stake for this election and I know we all want to endorse the right candidate and I think it's a really good thing we're trying to come to a real consensus before jumping headlong into one candidate or the other.  We also all feel a great deal of pressure to come to that consensus soon, so that the progressive blog presence has time to make an impact on the primaries.

What I think I'd like us to all remember here is that we should not get stuck in the primaries on who is "electable."  I think back to 2004 and everyone I know said "Dean just isn't electable." And then after the election my conservative friends all said they were glad we had picked a lack luster candidate like Kerry; that they were really most worried about a strong voice like Dean.  Now we're all looking for the candidate that most ignites us, like Dean.

At the same time I hear in this post and it's comments people worrying about who (besides Kucinich, because he's just not electable) is the closest thing to a true progressive candidate.  I always thought that the primaries were designed to air our grievances with the party and vote our conscience and in that we determine what our party is about and who we consider electable.  Then during the national election we back who-so-ever won the primary.

I'm sure I will receive responses calling me overly-idealistic but if we all like Kucinich's platform, then lets just fucking choose him as the truly progressive candidate that he is and get the debate going in that direction.  Who cares if he's "electable?"  Thinking like that is how we ended up with Kerry last time, and it's how we are going to end up with Hillary this time if we aren't careful to keep our ideals in mind and not worry about the "electability" of this one or the other.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:37:51 PM EST

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

Not the ONLY concern, but must be one of them.


by bruh21 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (2.00 / 1)

I like everything Kucinich says but the fact it that he will not be elected because the powers that be are not liberal.  It matters who you vote for so we don't get this same crowd back in.  The next time -- this mob of Republicans will finish us off.  Hillary may not be the most liberal candidate but she can get things done.  She is pragmatic and realistic.  As a nation we are drowning in debt and if we don't change our policies we are finished.  I hope you will vote for the Democratic Nominee because anyone we nominate is better than any Republican.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:44:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

I suppose I should make a small clarification that I too agree that once the primaries are over and we have chosen a nominee, then of course we should all be bound and determined to vote for and endorse the Democratic nominee (be that person Hillary, Kucinich or anyone else).  It puts us back in that defensive mode too early when we're concerned about who's "electable" during the primary process.  Vote your conscience now and vote your party come November.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 07:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

Thank you -- Good comment. You understand that after the primaries its important that we all vote for the Democratic Candidate.  The Republicans will do their best to split us but if we are united behind our Candidate we will succeed.  


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

The true electable candidate on the Democratic side is Joe Biden- Here is why.

First lets look at the strength of the GOP candidates-
1)Guiliani- Guiliani is Mr 9-11. He is the candidate that voters give credit in reducing the crime rate in NYC. In addition to Guiliani's tough on crime and terrorism perception. He is liberal on social issues such as gay rights and abortion rights.

2)Romney- is a weak General Election candidate due to his extreme ideology on social issues.

3)Thompson and McCain- are elder statesman- They are experienced and well respected.

The Democratic nominee will be progressive on social issues- such as Health Care,Economy,Education,Enviroment,Aborti on Rights,Gay Rights-etc.

The big question is which candidate is a grown up figure. Which candidate has strong law and order and national security credentials and is strong on Television.

Biden is the top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary and Foriegn Relations committee. He is popular with unions,law enforcement,foriegn diplomats. He does will in the sunday talk show debates. He represents a border state. Biden is a candidate that looks like a Commander in Chief. Biden will not be labeled as a Tax and Spend- Soft on Crime- Queer loving Democrat.
Biden can stand shoulder to shoulder to Guiliani turning Guiliani into a fairy.
Compare that to Hillary,Obama,Edwards,and Richardson.

Hillary is personally despised by the public for some reason. Obama and Edwards are inexperienced.
Richardson has performed poorly in the debates.


by nkpolitics on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:47:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

My friend is working on the Biden campaign. The reality is that he hasn't got the money to win. He is a great candidate and I would be proud to support him if he should be the nominee but as it looks now he will not.  I do take issue with you when you say that Hillary is despised by the American people.  Every poll I read tells me you are wrong.  She is liked by 85% of Democrats.  They see no electability problem.  Please don't repeat the comments of Karl Rove.  He has only one interest and that would be to make sure she is not President.  The only thing that can defeat us is ourselves.  


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 01:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

I do believe that Hillary can appeal to Red State voters who have a personal dislike of her. She did well in Upstate NY during her two US Senate Campaigns. Hillary does well in retail politics.

The advantage- Biden has- is Biden is like a the Democratic version of John McCain or Bob Dole or George H.W. Bush- the father is much smarter than the son.

Voters from both sides of the aisle have great admiration and respect for Dole and Bush Sr. They have great knowledge and wisdom on all public policy issues.  

During 8 years of Bush's arrogant,childish divisive stubborn policies- Voters may look for a grown up politician.

Hillary does well because she will have her husband's former campaign and public policy advisors on her team. Voters were happy with the Clinton years of Peace and Prosperity. Unlike Kerry- Hillary is type of candidate that can fight back against GOP smear.

The 85% of the Democrats that are supporting her. are voting their heads instead of their hearts. The 85% of the Democrats could agree with her on public policy issues.

What I meant by despise by the American public is They believe Hillary is a Cold Calculating Opportunitist. She looks like the UMA THURMAN character in Kill Bill or My Super Ex Girlfriend. However she is a serious and tough candidate during serious and tough times.

Obama and Edwards are likeable- They are superstars- but they don't look like tough guys.

Biden looks like a High School Principal. Well respected by the faculity and students but also a disciplinarian. He is a candidate that Students will fear if they misbehave.  


by nkpolitics on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 01:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

Biden was the first candidate I supported this year.  He has the most experience and the best grasp of the issues.  If you have noticed since the advent of Television we are sold Rock Stars instead of gravitas.  So many people who would have made great presidents are left in the dust.  Could we get a Roosevelt or a Truman today?  

That being said I think Hillary will do a great job because she will be working in tandem with Bill, who was a well respected President around the world and whose domestic policy brought us 22 million new jobs. If the rest of the world had a vote it would be for Hillary.  They are terrified of this administration.  I can't imagine a change more profound then Hillary and the people she can bring on board after this disasterous and frightening administration.

I do have a problem however, when I hear one of the media pundits express with a straight face--experience is highly overrated.  This brings to mind a movie from the 70's.  See if if you get a chance.  THE CANDIDATE with Robert Redford.  They sold him to the public and when he won he said, What do I do now?


by changehorses08 on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 01:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On "electability" (none / 0)

After 8 years of a non experienced ideologue in the White House- who makes decisions based on misguided principles of his neoconned base. Resulting in a polarized nation. War and Recession.

It is foolish for Democrats to replicate the Republicans and pick an inexperienced Democrat that is endorsed by the liberal blogging community(Edwards).

Hillary/w Bill Clinton as chief Campaign and Public Policy advisor will be outstanding.

I will be excited if Hillary selects Obama as her VP runningmate- Obama can repair the divisions in this country and around the world based on his rock star appeal.

Hillary picks Richardson as Secretary of State- Richardson will be an excellent diplomat.

Hillary picks Wesley Clark as Secretary of Defense- Clark will be an excellent military advisor for Hillary Clinton.

Biden remains in the US Senate as Chairman of the Senate Foriegn Relations Committee.
Dodd remains as Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.


by nkpolitics on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 01:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field (2.00 / 1)

I love the way the various candidates who aren't so pro-corporate get the little slams thrown at them.  All of this always basically adds up to people saying ... yes, this candidate sounds good and you probably agree with him ... but you should vote for him because [fill in the blank].

The classic case is just listed above, with the BS about 'electable'.  That's the way the Kerry campaign and the corporate media combined to make him the nominee in 2004.  That silly myth they both spun that said since he was a vet the Republicans couldn't possibly attack him.  How'd that work out for ya?

There's another one higher up in this article.  The slam at Edwards for sounding "angry", then the piece of BS that follows about how some how angry politicians can't get elected.  When?  Which campaigns?  

I ask, because an 'angry' politician in a year with happy, complacent voters might have a problem.  But an angry politician in a year with angry voters might be just the thing.

But, the real point that's being made in the background is that the party has to stick with one of the corporate-approved candidates... basically Hillary or Obama.  The non-spoken point that's being made is that we can't possibly go with a candidate that's talking about the problems real voters are facing and maybe proposing solutions that aren't corporate-approved.  Its just that the vehicle used to make that point is the backhanded slap at Edwards being "angry".

A variation on the old bumper sticker comes to mind.  Right now, if you ain't angry, you ain't paying attention.  Maybe an angry populist is exactly the candidate to puncture the BS that's sure to surround McCainGuillianiThompson.

Of course, I read this after nearly falling off my chair laughing at the other article pumping the Joe Biden for President campaign.  Yikes!


by COBear on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 07:07:14 PM EST

Re: On The Fluidity of The Democratic Field (2.00 / 1)

cobear -- read between the lines.  The Republicans are terrified of another Clinton Presidency.  Those were good times.  Hillary is not an idealog but she knows how to get things done.  Right now the Housing Market is in a terrible recession.  So many people are going into foreclosure and bankruptcy and this President doesn't even mention it.  Our economy is coming apart at the seems.  Only Hillary can fix this mess.  This is why the propaganda is out there about her not being electable.  If she wasn't electable would Rove waste his time worrying about her?  He is not going to be voting for a Democrat.  Consider the source.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not hard to understand (2.00 / 2)

Todd:

I think the pundits wrap themselves into knots making what is a simple race more difficult to understand than it needs to be:

a) Clinton went into the race as the front runner. She's led every Democratic poll dating back to 2003. She and her husband have deep tentacles into every constituency of the party, going back three decades. She has the best campaign organization and the best preparation. She hasn't faltered. In fact, she run the best campaign and proven to be the strongest candidate on the stump. So, big surprise, she's still the commanding front-runner.

b) Obama is Mr. Charisma. His shot was to enter the race and ride a wave of excitement past Clinton. Didn't happen. He got in, rode a wave of excitement to 25% in the polls, and hasn't gained an inch since them. The reason? No matter how charismatic, he failed to cross the presidential commander-in-chief threshold. Not surprising. In my lifetime, no candidate has been a serious threat for the Presidency 2.5 years removed from the statehouse.

c) Edwards. OK candidate. In most cycles, he's be a contender. In 2008, all the oxygen in the room is being sucked up by two larger than life candidates. Edwards looks like a mere mortal in comparison and that's where he's polling. His only real bump in the race came after his wife's terminal cancer announcement. But, that will also prevent him from getting the announcement as the Party can't afford to have him potentially off the trail tending to his wife in the fall of 2008. Cold? Yes. But, I don't want to lose to the Republicans because our candidate can't campaign.

As much as everyone would like to find something to change the dynamics of the race, there's really nothing on the horizon. That's why Obama and Edwards have made the desperation move of going negative against the front-runner.


by hwc on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 07:56:39 PM EST

Yes, but... (none / 0)

Very cogent analysis and I agree with your premises, but it ain't over yet.  The most serious threat to Hillary is the long duration of the campaign and I am increasingly convinced the polls are not giving us an accurate assessment of the relative standings of the candidates, the contradictory nature of the results in the vital first states suggests this.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, but... (none / 0)

Oh. Of course, it's not over. Campaigns are long, gruelling affairs, usually determined by the candidate who makes the fewest mistakes. It's all about discipline and staying on message.

Democrats also like to have their little flings and flirtations through the process, getting all hot and bothered by a movement candidate or a lefty throwing big juicy chunks of firebreathing populist red meat to the crowds. Kind of like dating the bad boy for few months, knowing he's not really marrying material. At the end of the day, they always move to the mainstream, establishment candidate or the closest thing to one in the race, (i.e. a cadaver-like John Kerry over the firebreathing, but utterly unelectable, Howard Dean).

It's the internals in the polling that make it such an uphill climb for Obama or Edwards. Women make up the strong majority of Democratic primary voters (probably 60%) so the frontrunner also has the strongest natural base, as well as the "establishment" loyalties that go back decades, nutured for thirty years by the Clintons. On top of that, Clinton owns the big states (NY, FL, CA, etc.) to such an extent that the other candidates have all but written them off, going all in on Iowa and New Hampshire. Plus, we haven't even begun to see Bubba. If things tighten up and he's needed, he'll be everywhere campaigning hard in November, December, and January.

I'm going to one of the Hill n' Bill Shows in New Hamshire on Sunday.


by hwc on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, but... (none / 0)

HWC-I wish I could be there.  Bill is going to be on Oprah, Letterman and Larry King and Hill is going to be on Ellen this week.  


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, but... (none / 0)

I read an article which says that Hillary is tapping into a voter base of Democratic Single Women.  There are 20 million of them and they haven't voted in the last 2 elections.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, but... (none / 0)

Hope you enjoy the show.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 05:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not hard to understand (2.00 / 1)

HWC -- I totally agree with your assessment of the reasons which Obama and Edwards have gone negative.  What bothers me is that Elizabeth Edwards quoted Karl Rove saying that Hillary's negatives are too high and she will split the Democrats.  No Democrat should quote Karl Rove because he puts this kind of crap out there in the hopes of stopping us from voting for the candidate we choose.  The Republicans are scared to death of Hillary they will do and say anything they can to hurt her in our eyes.  I am very disappointed in Mrs. Edwards for quoting Rove and equally disappointed in John Edwards for using his wife to say such things.  

The good thing about Hillary is that she is running her own race and isn't worried about what anyone else says or does.  Also, there is no evidence to support what Rove is saying.  The problem for the Republicans is their own hypocrisy.  If they lose Congress again it will because of Senators like Larry Craig who preach family values but continue to believe the law doesn't apply to them.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

People Don't Elect Angry Presidents (1.00 / 1)

We have an angry president now and it makes people very nervous.  I am sorry that Edwards candidacy has come down to this.  If he has something to say about Hillary Clinton he should say it himself and not have his sick wife do it for him.  Why is Elizabeth Edwards, who is sick with Cancer out there everyday attacking other candidates on behalf of her husband?  She has 2 small children who need to be with their mom and she owes it to her family to be as rested and healthy as she can be.


by changehorses08 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:13:40 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.