The Trouble With Hillary's Electability

I wrote this for today's Beyond Chron, San Francisco's Alternative Online Daily.

With Hillary Clinton leading among Democratic primary voters, pundits are asking the same question they asked about Howard Dean four years ago - can she win the general election?  In response, some have pointed to the matchup polls both nationwide and in swing states, proving that even Hillary can defeat the Republican nominee.  But that's because Republicans are in such disarray that whoever gets the Democratic nomination - Clinton, John Edwards or Barack Obama - is favored to win.  Hillary could still get elected President, but it would be a much closer race than if Edwards or Obama were the party's nominee.  Moreover, Hillary will hurt down-ballot Democrats in red states (and even swing states) and give Republicans a shot in the arm - making it difficult for 2008 to be a year of progressive realignment.  For activists who say they're in it for the long haul, a President Hillary Clinton will not help in 2010, 2012 and beyond.

There's no better way to explain how dysfunctional Republicans are than the undeclared presidential "campaign" of Fred Thompson.  Here's a guy who was a one-term Senator in the 1990's who did nothing worth remembering - and whose campaign rationale seems premised on the fact that John McCain's "Straight Talk Express" is a train wreck.  The other two candidates - Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney - have never been popular with the party base, and no Republican will want to run in 2008 on George Bush's legacy.

So it shouldn't come as a surprise that even Hillary Clinton beats the four Republican candidates in hypothetical match-ups.  In Missouri, a swing state that Bush carried in 2004, Hillary currently beats Giuliani by three points, Thompson and McCain by six points, and Romney by nine points - according to the latest Rasmussen poll.

But take a deeper look at these polls, and the closeness factor should alarm us. In Pennsylvania, a must-win state that John Kerry took in 2004, Hillary beats Romney by 13 points, Thompson by seven points, and McCain by four points.  But she only beats Giuliani (who is favored to get the G.O.P. nod) by a 45-44 margin.

Of course Hillary could win under the current climate, but she would also be the weakest of the three major Democratic candidates in the general election.  If you look at a composite total of national polls, Hillary would only beat the generic Republican nominee by five points.

Meanwhile, Edwards and Obama would each win by about nine points.  While Hillary would beat Fred Thompson nationwide by a 6-point margin, Edwards would win by 12 and Obama by 13. When it comes to attracting "swing votes" to have a popular mandate, Obama and Edwards - who are more progressive than Hillary - are also more electable.

But it's not just a question of whether a candidate can win - or what that winning margin would be.  Hillary Clinton is simply not electable in large parts of the country, and there's nothing that will change theses voters' opinions after 15 years.  Putting her at the top of the ticket will hurt Democratic candidates who are running for Congress there, at a time when 2008 should be another "wave" election year like 2006.

With Howard Dean's "Fifty State Strategy," Democrats have aggressively campaigned in states that the party abandoned years ago - running candidates for office that create a new "farm team."  Success stories include Senator Jon Tester of Montana, an organic farmer who wants to repeal the Patriot Act but appeals to the red-state voter.  Having Hillary Clinton as the party's titular head will make it harder to elect such candidates.

After he announced his resignation, G.O.P. strategist Karl Rove went on national TV to attack Hillary Clinton.  Her campaign was thrilled, as they knew that being the target of Rove can only help her among Democratic voters.  But it's not hard to see that he did this intentionally.  He wants Democrats to pick the weakest nominee, so that the Republicans can be in a stronger position down the road.

And the trouble with Hillary's electability go way past 2008 - assuming she gets elected President and the Democrats keep Congress.  Hillary is such a polarizing figure that having her in office will only embolden Republicans to rebuild their grassroots infrastructure.  While Democrats rightfully complain that much of the anti-Hillary sentiment is unfair, it's real and they need to understand its potency.

Progressive activists say they're in it for the long haul.  It was great to elect a Democratic President in 1992, but that was dwarfed by the Republican take-over of Congress in 1994.  When Democrats finally won Congress in 2006, everyone on the Left understood that it is only the start - not the finish - of a very long journey to undo the damage of the Reagan-Gingrich-Bush legacy, and initiate a new progressive era.

So even if Hillary can win the White House in 2008, it's way too simplistic to view that as the ultimate goal.  Will Democrats who want a woman President be content if Hillary Clinton makes it harder for the party to become relevant in all fifty states?  Will they care if it helps the Republicans take back Congress in 2010, 2012 or 2014?

What about the issues that matter?  Will Hillary push a progressive agenda the way that a President Edwards or Obama would push?  Who do you trust to stick to their guns when the right-wing noise machine goes on the attack, and who do you fear will triangulate against the Left and take them for granted when it is expedient?

These are the questions that Democratic voters need to think about right now - before the first primary votes are cast.

Send feedback to paul@beyondchron.org



Display:


Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 2)

Can you provide a single piece of evidence, polling or otherwise, that shows Hillary would hurt down ballot races...

This is an argument like the electability argument. It has become CW among many in the media and on blogs, yet I have never seen any credible evidence to show that it is actually true. I suspect, like the electability argument, it will be shown to ne false as well

I live in Virginia and Jim Webb brought Hillary in here to appear with him last year...didn't seem to hurt his campaign...


by SaveElmer on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:27:04 AM EST

Jim webb had a private (none / 0)

fundraiser with Hillary.

Obama and Edwards had very public rallies with HIllary.

I know you're smart enough to understand the difference


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:33:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jim webb had a private (none / 0)

Hillary spoke at a "Women for Webb" rally here in northern Virginia


by SaveElmer on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:57:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this summer... (none / 0)

i've talked to at least six democratic incumbents who believe that hillary's presence at the top of the ticket will hurt their numbers.  they all have different reasons, and i think they've all been mentioned here.

i know that hillary's supporters don't want to acknowledge the queasiness out there about her being at the top of the ticket, but this was actually a topic brought up in several of the workshops at the dnc summit.

the request for "proof" -- which is something that never exists in political campaigns before election day (polls are not "proof") is a banal attempt to dismiss real concerns.  yeah, yeah, yeah, we all heard the same thing in 2004.  let's ask president kerry for proof, ok?


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i'll add to this... (none / 0)

how i responded to this concern at the summit: candidates know how to take care of this.  (now) senator salazar was very leary about kerry, crist refused to be seen with bush.  campaigns are all about survival, and if the top of the ticket doesn't help them, they disassociate themselves from it.  so it's stupid to deny that these concerns exist -- they do, and we all know it -- just as it's stupid to pretend that campaigns can't fend for themselves.  geez, democrats won seats when mcgovern was the nominee -- including in the south...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'll add to this... (none / 0)

there in  lies a different strategy. rather than engaging in denial, you are offering another way of addressing the issue.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 02:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 1)

Talking about , swing states . Below are the latest qunnipiac poll , head to head that I can find.

Head to head matchups show:

Florida :

Clinton  : 46%

Guiliani : 44%

Obama   :  41%

Guiliani : 44%

 Ohio :

Clinton  : 43%

Guiliani : 43%

Obama :    39%

Guiliani : 42%

Pennyslvania :

Clinton  : 45%

Guiliani : 44%

Obama :    39%

Guiliani : 45%

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?Rele aseID=1089

Now lets even go down south :

ARIZONA :

Clinton  : 36%

Mccain :   48%

Obama :    34 %

Guiliani : 48 %

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic /news/articles/0829mccain-poll0829.html

No How is he more electable than Hillary , again.

Lets not even forget rasmussen has her with a bigger lead in Florida.
 


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:27:15 AM EST

add to this the rule of thumb... (none / 0)

that both blacks and social conservatives are traditionally underpolled...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (1.33 / 3)

Our usual hit piece from the usual corner. Move on...


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:37:55 AM EST

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

In response, some have pointed to the matchup polls both nationwide and in swing states, proving that even Hillary can defeat the Republican nominee.  But that's because Republicans are in such disarray that whoever gets the Democratic nomination - Clinton, John Edwards or Barack Obama - is favored to win .

- Whatever , who cares about whatever excuse you have for her lead . She's leading means she's leading . If She is so hated/dislike how come she is leading , Find another excuse for that.

Hillary could still get elected President, but it would be a much closer race than if Edwards or Obama were the party's nominee.  

- what evidence do you have of that ?

So it shouldn't come as a surprise that even Hillary Clinton beats the four Republican candidates in hypothetical match-ups.  In Missouri, a swing state that Bush carried in 2004, Hillary currently beats Giuliani by three points, Thompson and McCain by six points, and Romney by nine points - according to the latest Rasmussen poll.

- Another evidence she is winning , another excuse.

After he announced his resignation, G.O.P. strategist Karl Rove went on national TV to attack Hillary Clinton.  Her campaign was thrilled, as they knew that being the target of Rove can only help her among Democratic voters.  But it's not hard to see that he did this intentionally.  He wants Democrats to pick the weakest nominee, so that the Republicans can be in a stronger position down the road.

- This is where you finally become unravelled , how the hell do you know what Karl Rove is thinking , what if he wants to make National Security like he has said the top issue in 08 and he thinks on that score Edwards/Obama can be beat . For you to be making this argument shows the lack of substance in our write up.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:39:07 AM EST

well, it can't hurt that republicans are eager... (none / 0)

to run against her.  not all of them agree with karl rove that she needs to be softened up now.  i'd bet many are afraid that if she gets too softened up, democrats might not nominate her...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

this diary has been done several time. It's not very ususal to generally argue what you are arguing. what I would like to know is data relating to coattails in presidential years, what are independents saying about clinton in the battle ground states, etc? that's more specific and would be more fruitful. If you want a model for how to write a good diary on this sort of subject look at the diary by Fla DEm . he does a great job of this stuff.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:49:17 AM EST

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 1)

You point to PA as your only saving grace with the fact that Giuliani is in a dead heat w/ Clinton, and its a state Kerry won, but you fail to mention Florida which Kerry Lost.

You also fail to mention that Obama puts NJ and NY into the potential hands of the GOP. ho-hum.

This diary was debunked before it was even made.

Just one last thing, HRC's favorables and very favorables among democrats is higher than both Obama's and Edwards'. How does that play into down ticket ballots?


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 11:50:45 AM EST

there's no question that obama's nomination... (none / 0)

brings out black voters.  this, at least, has been shown over and over.

one would imagine that edwards appeals to many voters that do not favor hillary.

hillary is the only candidate who might be hung with the albatross of the congressional approval rating, although that's speculative at this point.  also, it seems that if iraq gets worse, hillary does worse.  too many variables, but it's easy to see why republicans want to run against her.  it energizes their base and increases their war chests.

i keep waiting for evidence that hillary energizes our base...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Simply the next argument Hillary Opponents come up (2.00 / 2)

First, she was going to be too polarizing within the party, activists hate her, she wouldn't have a chance of winning the nomination. So when polls clearly show her to be candidate with the highest favorables in the party they move on too the next argument...

She would suck in the debates, her voice is too shrill, she gives mealy mouthed answers...so when she clearly wins several if not all of the debates held so far(and drives Obama to cut back doing them) they move on to the next argument...

She is too polarizing among the general electorate, she won't be able to flip a single red state and might lose several blue ones...and now with several polls showing her flipping up to 10 red states (depending on the Republican) they move on to the next argument...

She might be able to win the White House, but she is so hated that she will kill us in down ballot races...

Hard for me to see how people would hate her so much that they would vote against their local rep because of her, but would still be willing to vote for her as President...but in any case, I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that she would hurt down ballot candidates...and my guess is that this canard will be shown to be false as well...

So the question is, what will they come up with next...


by SaveElmer on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:06:38 PM EST

Re: (2.00 / 1)

"So the question is, what will they come up with next..."

Answer:  "Too much cleavage."    :-)


by georgep on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simply the next argument Hillary Opponents com (none / 0)

They will pull out the old right-wing talking points - and lose what little credibility they have left.

The netroots activists are in danger of making themselves not only caricatures of themselves, but becoming totally irrelevant in this election.


by SF Bay on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 2)

Paul:

I've got a great idea for your next op-ed piece, "The Trouble with my Candidate's Electability in the Democratic Primaries".

I'm sure that you will find no shortage of statistical evidence.


by hwc on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:06:50 PM EST

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 1)

The diarist fails to show the many state polls that we have seen in which Clinton fares better than either Obama or Edwards.  Qunnipiac has shows Clinton doing very well in major swing states such as Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, the same can be observed by Rasmussen in many states and also Survey USA.  What has become apparent is that Obama does not fare as well as Clinton in head-to-heads with either of these 3 respected polling firms when it comes to swing-state polling (the bread and butter for Democrats.)

Thus, your diary makes the major mistake of omission of very vital facts central to your argument.  


by georgep on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:07:35 PM EST

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

After his 30 minute question to Senator Clinton at the Kossack convention, I'm sure that Mr. Hogwarth has made it a priority to work on his brevity. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have included the evidence that runs counter to his hit-piece.


by hwc on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

I think he fell off his wheels after that session .

He actually thought he's questions had an impact on the race , I think he wrote a diary praising himself for asking the questions.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

now for the stupid part of our day... (none / 0)

all the races i can think of fall with MOE, which means that all three top tier candidates are statistically tied.  i'd be very interested in states where the difference between democrats is outside of the MOE.  but citing polls neither substantiates paul's claims nor yours...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (2.00 / 2)

" Hillary could still get elected President, but it would be a much closer race than if Edwards or Obama were the party's nominee.  Moreover, Hillary will hurt down-ballot Democrats in red states (and even swing states) and give Republicans a shot in the arm - making it difficult for 2008 to be a year of progressive realignment."

You're welcome to your opinion, but don't throw it out there as fact. It's not.

And, I am so tired of these so-called statements of fact. OK, you're supporting someone else. Write up a diary about how good they are, give us some actual facts, and I'll listen.

But can the Hillary is not the best candidate, will hurt the down ballot bull-doodoo.


by SF Bay on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:32:51 PM EST

Re: Why I haven't written that diary ... (none / 0)

... is because I don't have a "favorite" candidate right now.  All I know is that I really don't want Hillary.

If you press me, I would vote for John Edwards -- but Obama is my close second favorite.  And I think the blogosphere spends too much time bickering between Obama and Edwards supporters, when the people who really need to be persuaded to switch are the Hillary supporters.

Call me "negative," but I'd rather direct my fire at Hillary than Obama.  If Edwards and Obama kill each other, my least favorite candidate will get the nomination.


by Paul Hogarth on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why I haven't written that diary ... (none / 0)

You finally admitted to it. But you didn't need to , any reasonable person knew that all along.

That was why your trip to Kos Convention and your subsequent diary about it wasn't credible .

Even Edwards/Obama supporters on Kos who were at the convention roundly disputed your accounts.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 02:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

About Beyond Chron and you (none / 0)

Your article archives back through June shows 7 hit pieces on Hillary Clinton. There are two mildly positive ones for Obama and nothing about Edwards.

Based on your writing it's clear that 1) you hate Hillary, 2) I guess you like Obama, and 3) contrary to what you just wrote today you haven't bothered to write one word about Edwards so it's hard to see how he can be your current favorite ("if pressed").

All of it just lends more credence to the fact that you don't really have anything positive at all to add to the discussion about the Democrats running for President.


by SF Bay on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 03:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

Well, there's probably some truth the charge. Hillary probably will hurt the downticket races in the states where there aren't any women voters.


by hwc on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you just made me day! (none / 0)

thanks for the humor. To bad the Hillary haters are such a dour and uniformed crowd.


by SF Bay on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 02:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Trouble With Hillary's Electability (none / 0)

Were you reading my mind? I wonder why the margins are so underplayed in the press? They seem to be against Edwards, who in my mind is the most electable and most progressive candidate. Then, too, you didn't mention the war. Hillary is a hawk, as she feels a woman must be. I feel her election would be a "business as usual" choice and that is not the wholesale change we need.California is the most progressive state and yet it leans to her. Money and organization and the "first woman". Not the role we have always played for the benifit of the nation.


deLesseline
by deLesseline on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 04:42:25 PM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.