Hillary Clinton and healthcare

This is the third installment of a weekly candidate-supporter diary series

The biggest domestic topic facing our nation is the health care crisis.  Our health care system is broken, and we must act to fix it.  The per capita outlay in our system is over $6,000 per person, double that of European countries, and they have at least a universal health care system that covers every citizen(some use the single-payer model,) whereas in our overpriced system we have 45 Million people without health care.

Much has been written about the competing health care plans of the candidates.  I would like to focus on Clinton's health care input and plans, but encourage additions and comments.  

Let me state that Clinton's entire health care plan has not been released yet, the final installment of the program is expected within the next 3 to 4 weeks.   From what I have read I expect the system to be closer to Edwards' plan than Obama's plan, but will most likely not include insured-mandated coverage (a major drawback to Edwards' system, IMO.)  It has been  claimed that you HAVE to impose insurance mandates to make the system universal, but that is not always true, in fact most European countries don't include them and they achieve universal coverage.  Whatever it may be, this final piece of Clinton's  health care plan will have to wait for a later merit discussion in a few weeks.

Let's go with what we already know, and part of the history.  

Let's go way back to 1993.  The health care system was not nearly as broken as it is today, the per capita outlay for our health care system in 1992 was $3,165 per capita.  In contrast, in 1992 Germany's per capita expenditure on health care was $2,476 per capita, France's was 2,119, Canada's was $2,008 and Sweden's was $2,528 per capita.    

source:  OECD figures

We had the most expensive health care system in the world even back in 1992, but the differences were not nearly as drastic as they are today.  Our expenditures per capita exceeded those of other major industrialized nations by about 30% to 40%.  

Against that backdrop came Bill Clinton's proposal to overhaul our health care system.  The Task Force on National Health Care Reform was set up, headed by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, to come up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_hea lth_care_plan

In a major speech to Congress president Bill Clinton made these comments:

Millions of Americans are just a pink slip away from losing their health insurance, and one serious illness away from losing all their savings. Millions more are locked into the jobs they have now just because they or someone in their family has once been sick and they have what is called the preexisting condition. And on any given day, over 37 million Americans -- most of them working people and their little children -- have no health insurance at all. And in spite of all this, our medical bills are growing at over twice the rate of inflation, and the United States spends over a third more of its income on health care than any other nation on Earth.

The plan ultimately failed to pass.   There were mistakes made when the plan was put together, but the main reason for it not gaining enough support was that conservatives were able to portray the plan as too convoluted and complex and the question was raised whether there was indeed a health care crisis present in the first place.   Many in the media and many political figures looked at the 1992 per-capita health care expenditures (and the relatively small difference in such expenditures to UHC nations like Germany and France) and shortsightedly dismissed that a major health care crisis was already afoot and was bound to get progressively worse.  All one had to do was to look at given health care growth rates and compare them to projected growth rates of expenditures in other industrialized nations to realize what was to come.  

Fast forwarding to 2006 we are now clocking in at over $6,000 per capita health care expenditures, a doubling of our health care costs per capita, whereas the other industrialized nations referenced above saw very slight increases in coverage cost.  Instead of being 1/3rd more expensive than Germany, France, Canada, Japan and Sweden our health care system is NOW THREE TIMES the expense of these other nations on average.  

An illustration of the explosive growth in this chart comparing expenditures from 1992 and 2002.

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S-CHIP a major step towards UHC:

Four years after the Universal Health Care proposal failed, Hillary Clinton helped pass the State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP.) She helped negotiate the bill with Congress and later was the point person working to ensure that parents across the country knew about the program and signed up their children. "Over the course of a year, the program, financed jointly by the federal government and the states, provides health insurance to six million children in families that have too much income to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to buy private insurance." [White House Press Release 10/17/00; New York Times, 3/14/07]

Enacted Single Largest Investment in Health Care for Children since 1965. The five year, $24 billion State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) will provide health care coverage for up to five million children. Two million children have already been enrolled, and in October 1999 President Clinton announced new outreach initiatives to enroll millions more uninsured, eligible children. Last year, the President launched a nationwide "Insure Kids Now" campaign that will bring together major TV and radio networks, healthcare organizations, religious groups and other community-based organizations to help enroll more children in the Children's Health Insurance Program, with the goal of enrolling 5 million of the estimated 10 million children eligible for health insurance under CHIP within 5 years. This year, the budget includes several of Vice President Gore's proposals to accelerate enrollment of children in CHIP. The President is also proposing a new FamilyCare program, which would give States the option to cover parents in the same plan as their children. [White House Fact Sheet, 1/11/00; White House, 2/23/99]

source:  http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishme nts/health.html

This program has now grown well beyond its original scope.  The initial plan gave medical coverage to 5 Million children who lacked eligibility for Medicaid, with elegibility capped at twice the poverty level (approx. $40,000 for a family of four.)  In some 14 states the program now covers hundreds of thousands of adults (using wavers to cover parents, pregnant women, etc.) to the point where in Minnesota 92 percent of money spent under the program is going to adults, and the other 13 states covering adults with universal coverage to varying degrees under this program.  Other states are looking to expand coverage to adults under this program as well.  Incrementally, the S-CHIP program has been used by states to expand health coverage to many of their citizens who are beyond the scope of Medicaid.  It is not hard to see how expanding this system and raising the elegebility threshold one eventually arrives at a system that comes close to covering many of the currently uninsured.

Enter S-CHIP expansion

Watch it:

Hillary Clinton is one of two principal sponsors of the S-CHIP expansion bill.  The Clinton-Dingell bill passed the Senate (altered) by a vote of 68-31 on 8/3/2007 and is awaiting reconciliation with the S-CHIP expansion house bill, which was passed on 8/1/2007.  The Clinton S-CHIP expansion bill included a reauthorization of S-CHIP for another 5 years, spending of $50 Billion over 5 years, and an expanded scope of coverage to allow states to increase coverage level to up to 4 times the rate of poverty, which would make eligible a family of four earning up to $82,600.  Also increased was the age of eligibility, allowing states to cover children up to 25 years of age.  Individual states abilities to also cover adults under this bill was not curbed.   The compromise alteration of Clinton-Dingell now allows for 3-times the poverty level (up to $61,000 earnings for a family of four) and a $35 Billion budget over 5 years.  

More after the flip:

Bush threatened to veto S-CHIP expansion

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/25/case y-clinton-schip


    Bush has promised to veto the SCHIP expansion. Today in an event at the Center for American Progress, Sens. Bob Casey (D-PA) and Hillary Clinton (D-NY) sharply criticized the veto threat:

Casey: [Bush] wants to give a billion dollars a year of an increase for children's health insurance, and tens of billions -- by one estimate as much as a hundred billion dollars -- in tax cuts to wealthy people. ... I don't understand it and we are not going to accept that because fortunately, unlike a lot of things on Capitol Hill, there is bipartisan agreement on this.

Clinton: If he wants to have part of his legacy be vetoing the child health insurance program then we'll try to override the veto because this is absolutely an imperative. ... I just think it's outrageous and offensive that the President would threaten to veto this legislation.

In terms of moving progressive values forwards in the area of health care, Hillary Clinton has done a lot more than most Senators currently active, certainly more than any candidate running against her for the presidency.   To wit, Clinton's bill was pegged to add about 7 Million additional children and also many parents, legal guardians, pregnant women, etc. to the scope of S-CHIP, which currently covers ca. 6.1 Million.   That would have made a total of 13 Million people who are not eligible for Medicaid covered by S-CHIP,  chipping away at the unsustainable 45 Million "uninsured" level with a system that is as close to the envisioned universal health care system as one can imagine.  

---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------

Plan for universal coverage

Hillary Clinton is proposing her Universal Health Care plan in 3 steps, the final step to be released in 3 to 4 weeks.

Naturally, I will be laying out the first 2 parts of the plan here.

Part 1:

http://www.nhinsider.com/health-care/200 7/6/17/senator-clintons-plan-to-reduce-h ealthcare-costs.html

Reducing health care cost and improving value

Hillary Clinton Announces Agenda to Lower Health Care Costs and Improve Value for All Americans

Today, Senator Clinton laid out a major plank in her framework for providing affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans: her 7-step strategy for lowering spiraling costs. The rising cost of health care is threatening working families, American businesses, and the nation's economic competitiveness. Premiums have almost doubled since 2000 - up 87
percent - four times higher than wages. And if left unattended, health care spending will double to $4 trillion per year over the next 10 years. Senator Clinton stressed that the necessary commitment to cover all Americans will require the reform of our often irrational, inefficient and wasteful policies.

Right she is.  I laid out at the beginning of the diary that health care cost have more than doubled from 1992 to today while every other industrialized nation has stayed almost put at the same level as they were at 15 years ago.   There is something seriously wrong with our approach, and it needs a major overhaul.  

Senator Clinton proposed a series of initiatives that will cut the spiraling rate of growth by one-third over time. Her health care modernization strategy achieves this by targeting the drivers of health care costs, including (1) our back-ended coverage of health care that gives short-shift to prevention, (2) the nation's reliance on an antiquated, wasteful, costly and even dangerous paper-based medical records system, (3) unmanaged chronic illnesses such as
diabetes and heart disease which account for over 75 percent of health care spending, (4) the over-utilization of medical interventions that provide little added value and the underutilization of those that do, (5) and excessive insurance, drug, and malpractice costs.

Senator Clinton's proposals would reduce costs and improve quality in the health care system.  Taken together they would lower national health spending by at least $120 billion dollars a year. If businesses received a proportionate reduction in their health benefits spending, they would achieve at least $25 billion in savings in 2004 dollars. Families
would substantially benefit as well. In fact, Business Roundtable has estimated $2,200 in national health savings for the typical family. And these savings would be reinvested in the system to help cover the 45 million uninsured.

To achieve this goal, Senator Clinton's strategy would:

1. A Groundbreaking National Prevention Initiative to Reduce the Incidence of Such Diseases as Diabetes and Cancer that Impose Huge Human and Financial Costs

2. Institute a New "Paperless" Health Information Technology System

3. Transform Care of Today's Chronically Ill Population to Improve Outcomes and Decrease Costs

4. Ending Insurance Discrimination to Help Reduce Administrative Costs

5. Create an Independent "Best Practices" Institute to Empower Consumers, Providers and Health Plans to Make the Right Care Choices

6. Implement Smart Purchasing Initiatives to Constrain Excess Prescription Drug and Managed Care Expenditures

7. Put in Place Common-Sense Medical Malpractice Reforms

SENATOR CLINTON'S 7-STEP STRATEGY TO REDUCE HEALTH COSTS WHILE INCREASING AFFORDABILITY, ACCOUNTABILITY AND QUALITY

1. Install a Groundbreaking National Prevention Initiative to Reduce the Incidence of Obesity and Diseases Such as Diabetes and Cancer that Impose Huge Human and Financial Costs: This century's plague is chronic illness including diabetes, heart conditions, obesity and other chronic conditions. Obesity rates have doubled among adults over the past
20 years; in fact Medicare could save over a trillion dollars over 25 years if obesity among seniors could be returned to levels in the 1980s. One out of three children born in 2000 is at risk of developing diabetes, and today's children are at risk of having shorter life spans than their parents - for the first time in our nation's history. Chronic illness accounts for 75 percent of health costs, and two-thirds of recent cost growth. Only half of recommended clinical preventive services are provided to adults, and less than half of adults had their doctors provide them advice on weight, nutrition, or exercise.i Only 38 percent of adults receive recommended colorectal screening and roughly 20 percent of children do not receive recommended immunizations.ii

snip

Part 2:

Watch it:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_ham pshire/articles/2007/08/23/step_2_of_cli nton_health_care_policy_improving_qualit y

New policies can improve health care quality

She started with a speech in June on reducing costs, followed by Thursday's address on quality, and will outline her plan for universal health care coverage next month.

"My order here is deliberate," she said. "In order to forge a consensus on universal health care, we need to assure people that they will get the quality they expect at a cost they can afford."

Many people are afraid that universal health care means having to live with diminished quality.  Clinton understands the apprehension and is outlining quality care as a major part of her health care plan.  

To improve quality, Clinton said she would promote physician certification programs that help doctors keep up with the latest advancements, increasing Medicare reimbursements for doctors who participate in them. Nursing care would get a boost in the form of $300 million to expand enrollment in nursing schools, create mentoring programs for recent graduates and recruit more minorities into the profession.

"The nursing shortage has become a nursing crisis, and that means it is a crisis for everyone," Clinton said. "Our nurses are truly the eyes and ears, and in many ways the heart and soul of our health care system. When we've got fewer nurses, working longer hours and serving more patients, the result can be worse outcomes."

Clinton also called for overhauling a reimbursement system that she said often punishes doctors for doing the right thing -- spending time with patients or working with their colleagues to take a collaborative approach. She proposes higher payments to providers who use teams to provide coordinated care and ending payments for preventable infections and injuries sustained during hospital stays.

"We need a system that encourages instead of discourages quality," she said.

She said while her rivals tell voters "We're going to go out and make it happen," her message is different.

"You've gotta get the votes," she said later at a house party in Concord. "You've got to compromise, which is not a word people in a Democratic primary like to hear because we want to think we can go and do exactly what we believe in make it happen. The fact is, you can't."

Speaking later in Manchester, Clinton said her universal health care plan would not involve a single-payer government system. Instead, she said she would consider expanding Medicare and allow people to join the federal employees insurance program.

"I think you don't want to take choices away from Americans. We're big on choice here. But you've got to have some framework so the choices work better," she said.

Clinton said she also would consider allow people to purchase health insurance from companies outside their states.

"There is no really strong argument anymore why you couldn't buy insurance across state lines to get better deals," she said. "Why should you be limited to what companies want to come into New Hampshire?"

Part 3 of the Universal Health Care plan has not been released yet.  It is expected to be revealed shortly.  

I am very confident in Hillary Clinton's ability to propose and pass a comprehensive UHC plan, something I can not say for any other candidates.  

I guess I am not alone with that confidence:

91% Of Dems Approve of Hillary On Health Care, The Highest of Any Candidate on Any Issue

Gallup: 'Her 91% rating among democrats on healthcare is the highest for any candidate on any issue within their own party': The Clinton administration's unsuccessful attempt to pass comprehensive healthcare reform in 1993-1994 has not shaken Democrats' (or independents') confidence in her to recommend the right thing for healthcare. Her 91% rating among Democrats on healthcare is the highest for any candidate on any issue within their own party.

source:  [Gallup Poll, 7/23-26/07 ]  http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=28 252

She has done a great job with S-CHIP, and what better "training on the job" for Universal Health Coverage than working on and pushing through that program?  



Display:


minor suggestions (none / 0)

You may want to summarize from Part 1, instead of posting the whole thing, and scale down the bar chart so that it fits the front page.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:01:27 AM EST

I agree with that suggestion (none / 0)

It will make the diary easier to read....


by ademption on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:11:22 AM EST

Re: I agree with that suggestion (none / 0)

"I'm your girl" and "Lobbyists represent real americans."


Can you say with a straight face that Hillary has been a strong leader in the Senate?
by AnthonyMason2k6 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Part III = Underpants Gnomes, Part II (none / 0)

Until Sen. Clinton releases part III of her plan (ie, the entire plan) this is all vanilla stuff that every candidate from both sides talks about -- improving efficiency, reducing costs -- with none of the hard choices presented for voters to consider. It's happy talk. By focusing on efficiency and costs and NOT universally available coverage she keeps low-information voters who HAVE health insurance in the dark about the massive humanitarian problem we have with the uninsured.

You did a lot of work in this post I just wish you had saved healthcare until Sen. Clinton's Part III is announced. This rolling disclosure of the Clinton healthcare plan by the Clinton campaign might be a good political strategy but there is no reason for it on policy grounds. You either have a policy or you don't. So far I'm marking the Clinton campaign as 'No plan' because they've done nothing to talk about the uninsured which is problem #1 and #1A.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:14:39 AM EST

Re: Part III = Underpants Gnomes, Part II (2.00 / 6)

Jerome Armstrong has given us weekly bloggers pretty much free reign to write about whatever it is we feel like, so once the final part of the plan is released I am sure either hwc or myself will make it into another installment.  It is probably better this way, as there is a lot of "stuff" that has gone into this before the final healthcare proposal is put forth.

I don't really see how you can consider the very valuable S-CHIP program which is incrementally being expanded to offer insurance to more and more children and adults as "fluff."  It will be offering insurance to more than 10 Million of the 45 Million people who are currently without health insurance, after all.  It is that type of REAL nuts and bolts legislation, fought for, sweated over, for years, that makes up what is important in this.  Anyone can offer a "plan."  But, what has that person done in the field (in the trenches) to give confidence that the plan will actually become rality?


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part III = Underpants Gnomes, Part II (2.00 / 1)

Thank you for the diary. You put forth a lot of information and I appreciate it. If Part III is some kind of hybrid-system like France and Sen. Clinton makes implementing her new proposal a focus in her campaign I'll give her a fresh look.

I'm skeptical largely because I find the statement 'I'll get healthcare done by the end of my second term' to be a ridiculous proposition. The next President is either going to fight for healthcare or not. That President might fight and lose as presidents since Truman have been fighting and losing but it's not credible to say it takes MORE than 4 years to engage on the substance of the fight. Healthcare IS a tough issue but we fought WWII in Europe in less time than Sen. Clinton is suggesting it will take to implement her plan.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

shorter joejoejoe (2.00 / 1)

"I hate a positive diary about Senator Clinton".

Joe, it seems most democrats do not agree with you.  But they must be low information voters huh?


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you georgep (none / 0)

for this diary. I appreciate the time and effort that it took to put the info in this diary together....

I think you're wrong that HRC's plan will not have mandated insurance. I think it will. In fact, I believe when Obama came out with his plan, one of HRC's spokespeople thought that lack of a mandate was a problem IIRC. You can't have truly universal coverage if people are allowed to opt out of the system. One of the reasons hospitals are going under is b/c uninsured people cannot pay their bills from their emergency room visits.

Speaking of hospitals going under, I haven't heard any of the candidates talking about this phenomenon or maybe I've just missed it. The DC area, where I'm from, there have been a few hospitals that either have closed (DC General) or are in dire financial straits (Greater Southeast, Prince Georges Hospital Center). These hospitals primarily served the poor and the uninsured and without local and federal subsidies, they are struggling financially. Does anyone know of the candidates' plans to reinvest in some of the hospital infrastructure?

Back on topic, I suspect that HRC's plan will resemble Switzerland's universal healthcare plan, which is a private-public partnership. I'm just not sure whether HRC's plan would include individual or employer mandates and whether insurance premiums would be risk-adjusted......  


by ademption on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:28:26 AM EST

Re: Thank you georgep (none / 0)

Quoting ademption:

"I'm just not sure whether HRC's plan would include individual or employer mandates and whether insurance premiums would be risk-adjusted...... "

I probably should have clarified better in the diary:  It is the individual mandates I am objecting to (and the criminalization of non-compliance.)   I expect employer mandates.


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you georgep (none / 0)

I do not expect employer mandates. Clinton has said that employer mandate was one of the mistakes she made with her 1993 plan.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is a wonderful Senator (2.00 / 4)

Hillary is doing some good work.  She is a great senator and I support her in continuing to do her work in the senate.  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

good post!


by BigBoyBlue on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 07:41:04 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

"her entire plan isn't out yet."  That's an understatement, she's only announced the easy stuff in a Part 1 of 3 plan.  I expect there will never be a Part 2 or 3.

Without mandates, there is no universality (think elementary school).  Too bad HRC doesn't understand that.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:07:12 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

You are mistaken.  Part 2 was released last week.  Part 3 is said to be forthcoming within the month (that was last week, so about 3 weeks from now, roughly.)


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

cool: I'm a bit out of the loop -- I'm more involved in grassroots and local stuff now.

I'm kicking your campaign's ass.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

The Edwards campaign seems to be kicking it's own ass.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

FYI: Most European countries have an individual mandate.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:07:33 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

They did when I lived there. I had better health care in a country I wasn't even a citizen of than I receive here. I have heard all these supposed horror stories about "socialized medicine" but none of them ring true from my personal experiences. I think most of the horror stories are written by insurance companies.


by DoIT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

I lived in Germany for 2 years, and in Holland for 1 year in the late 80s.  There was no "individual mandate" but "employer mandate" when I was there.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:53:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

The Netherlands have changed their system last year. It's a subsidized individual mandate now.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

As I've explained to you before, there is indeed an individual mandate in Germany.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

If you are insured the service is generally worse, and little aches might go untreated for longer.

The actual health care is fine and cheaper. The horror stories are real but happen in equal measures in every system. The measurable numbers are all very close together for the most part.

The big difference is in the security you have that no matter what you have access to care. No more worries about having no Job and thus no healthcare or losing your job and your coverage. Not being able to pay for life saving surgery, Or having pre-existing conditions, etc. etc.

It really feels like a safety net, like you are always safe. And it's the same quality, but costs less.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 2)

I will wait until I see part three of this mini series before casting any final judgment. The first episode is great. The second, while important, is lacking in meat. It sounds good but it doesn't really say much. Hopefully by the time the third installment hits this will finally make sense and actually be comprehensive.

I disagree that "It has been  claimed that you HAVE to impose insurance mandates to make the system universal, but that is not always true,"

Unless something IS mandated it cannot be universal. If there is an excuse not to cover there will be no coverage. This is America, not Europe. Europeans have a great sense of unity. They believe in the social welfare of their citizens. This is America where capitalism is the unspoken rule of law. If a corporation can make a profit from depriving someone from health care they will. It is the American way. I do not trust this volunteer approach to solving our health care fiasco. I do not agree with this volunteer approach to universal health care. It is too much like Bush's volunteer Environmentalism. What should we expect next? Faith based Health Care?


by DoIT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:26:00 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Several states have enacted universal health insurance without individual mandates.  Some mandate health coverage, some don't. Mostly those with Republican governors do.    Romney went along with the universal health care system proposed by the Democratic legislature in Massachusetts ONLY after he imposed "individual mandates"  (to pacify the conservatives about individual responsibility.)  It was a huge fight with Democrats having no appetite to include the individual mandates.  In the end, Romney got his individual mandates and coined the inclusion of such mandates a great "conservative victory."    So, you can definitely not contend that individual mandates are predicated to getting to universal health care.  

Here are a few links to read about "individual mandates" that may shed a different light on the subject:

http://www.onecarenow.org/healthcarerefo rmindividualmandate.htm

http://www.healthpolicywatch.com/publica tions.asp?pubid=218

As I clarified above, you have to discern between an "individual mandate" system and an "employer mandate" system.  The "individual mandate" system is the conservative way to go, and can get you to your goal, but that does not mean that it is the right thing to do, and as the links point out, there are major problems with "individual mandates" that actually prevent universal coverage from becoming reality.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:51:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Perhaps I mixed things up about the individual and employer mandates. I do know that the day I started working I had health insurance. And it cost me the equivalent of 7 dollars to see a doctor. TOTAL. And the care was personal and professional.

I believe that we have to mandate universal health care. It should be a cradle to grave "right" of every American citizen. We should receive benefits equally. The reason we don't have universal health care IS because it is not mandated.


by DoIT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:17:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Yes, mandated from the employer.  If you are out of work, you are covered by the system automatically.  If you are sick, you are covered.  If you are retired, you are covered.  It is the individual mandates that I take issue with, not the employer mandates.   Of course, when you go for an employer based mandate you get the right to hyperventilate that it hurts business.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:24:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

I don't get this part:

"There is no really strong argument anymore why you couldn't buy insurance across state lines to get better deals," she said. "Why should you be limited to what companies want to come into New Hampshire?"

This seems to do away with the concept of regulation by individual States altogether.

Either these outside companies would have to obey New Hampshire's regulations to write insurance there, in which case they'd have no problem getting licensed by New Hampshire, or they wouldn't, in which case the regulations mean nothing.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:31:02 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Not necessarily.

If you are from NY, and have insurance based in NY, and you travel to florida and need to get medical care, i'm pretty sure the NY insurance co. doesnt have to worry about Florida insurance laws. They are covering a NY citizen, under the rules of their contract.

same thing with a couple living in NJ. Lets say the husband has coverage for the family, and the mother works in NY. If her insurance plans covers a visit, then its covered, and it doesnt have to go through any new tests to accomodate NY state laws on insurance.

There really isnt a strong argument why you couldnt buy insurance from another state.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Florida's insurance regulations are designed for the protection of Florida residents.  If you want to write insurance in Florida, you have to obey their regulations and get a license.  Yes, it's true that not everyone who happens to pass through Florida gets the protection of those insurance regulations, but they still serve to protect millions of Florida residents.

If we change the law to allow companies to sell insurance to Florida residents even if they're not licensed in Florida, then the Florida regulations cease to have any purpose whatsoever.  No one will have to obey them.  So if Florida wants to provide its residents with additional protection against abusive underwriting practices, too bad, they can't any more.

One of the hallmarks of the last six years of Republican rule was their campaign to preempt state consumer protection laws with federal legislation in areas like food labeling.  It's surprising that Hillary would be the one proposing a preemption of state insurance regulations, and that's why I raised the issue.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:36:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

Thats why federal regulation of insurance companies is so important. When people file bankruptcy, can't go to work because theyre sick,etc thats affects everyone in the country.

Also just on a simple level, insurance companies shouldn't be able to gouge,rip off, or deny payments to anyone regardless of where they live. Its not easy for people to just up and move to a state with fair practice insurance laws. EVERY US citizen has the right to health care.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

Well, I'm not opposed to federal insurance regulations that set a minimum baseline, but removing the ability of states to provide additional protection to their residents would be a major, major change.

I've learned a lot of lessons from the Bush Administration; one of them is that the federal regulations won't always be made and interpreted by someone you like.  It would be a pity to throw out all the state insurance regulations in favor of a comprehensive federal scheme, only to have President Jeb demolish the federal regs someday and leave people with no protection whatsoever.

I get the sense that this notion of "letting people buy from outside the state" simply hasn't been thought through to the same degree as the rest of Hillary's plan.  Let's be clear: if you want to buy a certain policy that isn't sold in your state, it's because your state won't ALLOW it to be sold.  And the reason they won't allow it to be sold is that it doesn't have certain advantageous features that your state requires.  It's not like, you know, reimporting drugs from Canada where you're getting the same product at a cheaper price.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

No federal regulations, except really bad ones or ones where the federal government is the only possible actor, prevent states from setting higher regulations. Its sort of like the minimum wage. The fed's say it has to be at least X amount. But the states are always free to raise that amount.

I think when you look at succesful healthcare systems you see that they control costs through regulation is a key step. This is especially important because health care doesn't operate based on the typical free market principles. Which is one of the big reasons where involved in this situation in the first place.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

It seems like you haven't been paying attention to Republican efforts over the last six years to promulgate federal regulatory schemes that would, in fact, preempt states from setting higher standards.  Here's one example.

Regardless, you're way off the subject of my comment.  If Hillary's suggestion that people could go outside their state to buy insurance were adopted, that would necessarily mean that states would no longer be allowed to have their own regulatory and licensing schemes.  The only way state regulation means anything is if the only insurance companies permitted to sell to state residents are those which obey the state's regulations and obtain a license.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:23:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Somebody posted above that it's premature to evaluate Clinton's healthcare policy until it's all been revealed. I agree. However, I don't see anywhere in her proposals thus far that allow me as a typical middle-aged white collar worker to take my medical insurance with me when I move or change jobs. For me, there is no bigger issue. It's great to extend coverage to people who cannot afford insurance and to all the uninsured children but how about us older folks who feel trapped in jobs we can't stand because we need the medical benefits? Also, if obesity is such a large problem, how about cracking down on the food industry, specifically fast food and meatpacking industries, which shamelessly advertise to children, unchecked and unregulated, and which hire lots of illegal immigrants for dangerous meatpacking industry jobs that are also largely unregulated? I haven't heard Hillary's challenge to those industries.

Having read all the pie-in-the-sky plans for healthcare reform, so far Obama's is the most extensive. The fact that Hillary has been less than forthcoming in her complete policy proposals just add to my sense of unease and my lack of trust for the woman. Why wait if she's got a good idea? Only two reasons to wait: there is no plan to reveal, or her campaign is playing presidential primary politics with it.


by shmolnick on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:34:45 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 2)

"There is no plan to reveal" seems like an illogical statement, given that the final leg of her plan is about to be released in a few weeks.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

With all the "pie-in-the-sky" proposals I would like someone to point out to me what exactly Obama has done in the past to make me believe that he would do a great job with health care?   With Clinton we have S-CHIP to look at (and the just passed major expansion of that program via the Clinton-Dingell CHAMP bill.)  S-CHIP is in a way a model for UHC and is used as an ersatz UHC system by a dozen states already.   Co-creating, pushing, fostering and expanding that valuable program gives me the confidence to believe that Clinton would do well with UHC as well.  I don't see anything in Obama's previous record (offered legislation, co-sponsorships, etc.) that would give me the same confidence.  All I see is a plan, but the person behind it has no history of health care work on a national level.   That makes me (and I assume most Democrats) apprehensive about the plan.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

When Hillary tried to make large and significant changes to the healthcare system, she failed. SCHIP may be a good program, but it hardly dents the surface of the large problems in our healthcare system.

My point in referring to Obama's plan is that everyone has plans, but at least he has specifics, even if they are pie in the sky. By the way, I have not decided to support anyone in the race so far.

It is my opinion that in supporting Hillary, people are conveniently overlooking her negatives, which are more numerous and worrisome than those of the other candidates. Most of all, she does not represent a change in the corporate-backed status quo of Washington, as is evidenced by her senate career, her willingness to accept money from lobbyists and Wall Street, among other big interests, and her hiring of that union-busting guy Mark Penn for a key role in her campaign. Yeah, she's gonna be on the side of working Americans. Sure she is.


by shmolnick on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:47:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

If you're satisfied with a plan that has specifics but won't ever be enacted, I guess Hillary could placate you by handing out copies of her old plan...


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:53:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

When Hillary tried to make large and significant changes to the healthcare system, she failed. SCHIP may be a good program, but it hardly dents the surface of the large problems in our healthcare system.

Not to jump on you but theres two important things to be pointed out.

1. While you might readily dismiss SCHIP it covers 10 million poor children. I mean seriously. You can't just waive your hand and dismiss that. A child that can't go to the doctor when they are sick is one of the biggest crimes against our moral code of decency. I agree its not UHC but it does A LOT of good. Even Orin Hatch recognizes this.

2. If you're criteria for choosing a candidate is "they can not have made a mistake or failed in the past" thats a pretty ballsy and high bar statement to make. We all make mistakes, especially politicians who have to deal with 435 congresspersons and a buttload of interest groups.  You can fault her and the Clintons all you want but at least they tried. I'd much rather have a politician aim high and fail rather than have them aim low and succeed.

Most importantly If you want to cast blame on the Clintons lets also cast blame on the democratically controlled congress for not passing the bill. At the end of the day congressional democrats had the final say on whether or not to pass Clinton care. They didn't and we're all worse off for that.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Well there's also that vote on the Iraq War Resolution, so that makes two big failures. By the way, health care is the issue that is most important to me personally, so a failure on that issue is amplified for me. Let's see, she co-sponsored anti flag-burning legislation, another failure, though minor; she didn't go on the stump campaigning for Ned Lamont in my state (one fundraiser she had had little real effect on the outcome), guaranteeing that most awful of men Joe Lieberman re-entry into the senate club; she criticized Obama recently for saying things that I wish all the candidates had the courage to say (that we would go into Pakistan to nab Al Qaeda's leadership if Musharraf did nothing, that we should talk to leaders of so-called rogue states), so I would consider her criticism a failure in judgement; not to mention that she's in bed with corporate america, a charge that I haven't seen any Hillary supporter on this site refute.

I'm wondering how many failures should it take before a voter reasonably rejects the candidate?


by shmolnick on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

I love when Clinton bashers do this. We go from talking about one specific issue, healthcare policy, and instead of actually responding to my comments you just go off on a "I hate hillary" tangent. How about trying to engage in the actual discussion

You want to discuss those things, do so in another thread. If you feel you're capable of debating health care in the healthcare thread in response to my comment about health care then try actually responding to my comment.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Now that's an interesting method of shutting down criticism of your candidate Hillary: tell people to go to another thread. Because God forbid we discuss other related issues to try to make our point in this thread.

You can't just limit discussion to a single policy issue, and this applies to any candidate, not just Hillary Clinton: a candidate's past behavior, votes, speeches, policy statements, and opinions, when taken together, indicate a pattern that paints an unflattering picture to many life-long Democrats, and make a fairly accurate predictor of what the candidate will do if elected.


by shmolnick on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 08:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

You have to understand that many people think the same about YOUR candidate.  I can bring up about 10 issues that make Obama the candidate I find less interesting than Clinton for the nomination.   On balance I think most reasonable long-time Democrats choose Clinton because to them she is better on the issues.  All candidates have "warts."  It is just that to many Clinton has less of them than the other candidates.    

I agree with world dictator, however, that the discussion would veer to far out of field if I were to start discussing what I find wrong with the other candidates and why, on balance, Clinton is the better candidate.   That would probably be better discussed in a meta diary that goes in that direction.  

I am working on a detailed diary for one of my next installments that discusses 30 different issue areas in which I lay out why I believe Clinton is better than her main opponent (Obama) in each of those 30 areas.   That would probably be the type of diary where your concerns fit better.  


by georgep on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 09:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

<< You have to understand that many people think the << same about YOUR candidate.  I can bring up about << 10 issues that make Obama the candidate I find
<< less interesting than Clinton for the nomination.

I don't have a candidate. I will probably vote for the candidate that I think is the most progressive, as opposed to a right-leaning moderate like Clinton.


by shmolnick on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

maybe they are working on the finished report?  Next time you write a diary make sure you put your first draft out there.  Don't edit it or spell check or rewrite any sentences or clarify any ideas.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:20:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why are drug and insurance companies (2.00 / 1)

supporting Hillary? Because they think she has the best chance to solve this problem?

No, because they expect that if elected she would do the least damage to their interests.

Or alternatively no, because they expect that she would lose, putting yet another corporate-friendly Republican in the White House.

Polls show Democrats trust Hillary to deal with health care, but most Democrats are not aware of corporate groups' support for Hillary, or of the other candidates' health care plans. In the early-voting states, I think voters will gradually become aware of those things.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:15:15 AM EST

Re: why are drug and insurance companies (none / 0)

If you look at the actual corporate money, you will see that there is really no discernible difference between all 3 candidates when it comes to pharma money.  In fact, pharma makes up as big, if not even bigger percentage of Edwards total intake than Clinton's and Obama's.   Given that all 3 are raking in massive pharma money I can't reconcile your main point with what I have seen.    


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:19:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why are drug and insurance companies (none / 0)

Desmoines, I linked to 3 articles down thread you may be interested in reading regarding Hillary and health coverage(the Novak one from Real Clear Politics is quite telling).  I would also note that Obama has only recieved 10k less than Hillary from insurance companies.  Edwards is the only one who can really assert himself as not be connected to insurance funds.  I would also note that she sits on the health committee in the Senate, Obama does not.

But, maybe these articles will at least relieve some of your concerns regarding hillary and health care should she become the nominee.


by bookgrl on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

Hillary Clinton has been running for President for 16 years.  She's been beaten by the insurance companies and big pharma once, then hopped into bed with them.  She still doesn't have a complete plan.  There's not a chance she passes substantive health care reform, and she's pretty much admitted that by saying her goal is the end of her second term.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:40:51 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 2)

 How to explain Clinton's essential work on S-CHIP and the massive amount of people (children and adults) it already covers and the new bill that doubles covered Americans who heretofore had no health insurance?   Those are the details that always come in to throw wrenches in the works, don't they?   :-)


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is great news (2.00 / 1)

for Edwards supporters:

From what I have read I expect the system to be closer to Edwards' plan than Obama's plan, but will most likely not include insured-mandated coverage (a major drawback to Edwards' system)

If this turns out to be true, then Edwards is the only one of the big three with a plan for universal health coverage.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:44:43 AM EST

Re: This is great news (none / 0)

David, you do realize that there is a difference between "individual mandates" and "employer mandates," right?   Edwards chose the "individual mandates" when the employer-based solution could have been the choice instead.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:49:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Insurance mandates (none / 0)

Let me state that Clinton's entire health care plan has not been released yet, the final installment of the program is expected within the next 3 to 4 weeks.   From what I have read I expect the system to be closer to Edwards' plan than Obama's plan, but will most likely not include insured-mandated coverage (a major drawback to Edwards' system, IMO.)  It has been  claimed that you HAVE to impose insurance mandates to make the system universal, but that is not always true, in fact most European countries don't include them and they achieve universal coverage.  

I disagree. Insurance mandates are very important. A universal system, and any healthcare system IMO, should guarantee everyone has access to healthcare.

BUT theres a lot of semantics going on when refering to insurance mandate. It's true that most other European countries don't have insurance mandates but thats because most European countries are single payer/medicare-esque. This means everyone isn't "forced" to have insurance but everyone has access to it.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:36:16 AM EST

Re: Insurance mandates (none / 0)

I am only opposed to individual mandates not employer mandates.  I hope Clinton goes the employer mandate route.  If you put in "individual mandates" (with the obvious criminalizing of non-compliance) you are running the risk that many won't be covered because they simply won't comply and take that chance.   Employer-mandated care is the way to go, IMO.  

Read this site for some concerns about individual mandates:

http://www.onecarenow.org/healthcarerefo rmindividualmandate.htm


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:46:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insurance mandates (2.00 / 1)

But its still a semantic hypothetical point. If you make the coverage mandated and everyone has access to FREE health care all youre saying is that you have to register in the system.

I think employer mandates are risky. Getting employers out of the system, or in it as little as possible is my personal preference. I don't think having insurance should depend on having a job. I also don't think that insurance should be a reason why people are forced to stay at a job or forced to close their small business and work for a corporation/big business.

I think the French system has a fair compromise on this issue as does the Wyden and Hacker plan, (which is where Edwards got the major outline for his plan.)


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

George (2.00 / 1)

Stop misrepresenting JRE's plan. There's no criminalization of non-compliace.

On the contrary, there's automatic enrollment for those who don't sign up.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: George (none / 0)

Are you saying that violators of the individual mandate requirement are not breaking the law?  What would the incentive be for someone to comply when noncompliance gets them free health care?  I guess I am not seeing your point.  Could you clarify?   Individual mandates by definition have to impose penalties for non-compliance.  I have no seen anyone state the opposite (as you have done here) and would like to get more specifics to get the gist of it.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:33:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

What happened to each Candidate getting a day?  I thought these were supposed to be on Mondays, Edwards Tuesdays, Obama Wednesdays, etc.  


by yitbos96bb on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:36:30 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

I posted mine very late last night/earliest morning.  I had personal stuff to take care of at the time I was planning to post (around 11.)   I assume the 2 Edwards diaries are still due for today.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup (none / 0)

Mine's coming up soon.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Let me state that Clinton's entire health care plan has not been released yet, the final installment of the program is expected within the next 3 to 4 weeks.   From what I have read I expect the system to be closer to Edwards' plan than Obama's plan, but will most likely not include insured-mandated coverage (a major drawback to Edwards' system, IMO.)  It has been  claimed that you HAVE to impose insurance mandates to make the system universal, but that is not always true, in fact most European countries don't include them and they achieve universal coverage.  

My money is on the Clinton plan being similar to a medicare for all plan. I'd bet that if you want to know what her plan will look like you can read the Hacker plan (Jacob Hacker from EPI) or look at the French system.

Why do I believe this. I think a lot of her rhetoric and actions have laid out what her philosophical approach to health care will be. First of all she's made it clear that she does not believe in socialized medicine. Uh oh right? When I first heard this I was very worried. However her explaination put me at rest. She made the note that most people don't consider medicare/medicaid to be socialized medicine (it really is though). This leads me to believe that she's going to be doing something similar to medicare where it's "scoalized" but "not socialized". This allows her to get out of the "OMG HILLARY CLINTON IS GOING TO SOCIALIZE MEDICINE...AHHHH" bashing from the GOP.

You can call a plan socialized medicine all you want but when voters, who have a positive opinion of medicare, hear it I bet they won't buy it. After all socialized medicine is bad remember!

2. The second important point to remember is that hybrid systems like the French, best Health care in the world, are not considered socialized medicine. Its universal care but not socialized medicine. A semantic point but an ingenious technical difference.

3. With a system like the Hacker plan, or the French hybrid system, insurance companies are not crowded out or destroyed. The french system encourages people to buy supplemental care, which 86% of the population does, and the hacker plan allows private insurance companies to compete.  
I think the insurance companies realize that the demand for UHC is not going to go away this time and they're just trying to fight for the right to still operate.  First and foremosts businesses are very pragmatic which is an important point.


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:47:51 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (2.00 / 1)

"I think the insurance companies realize that the demand for UHC is not going to go away this time and they're just trying to fight for the right to still operate."

In 1992 they were able to demonize the idea.  The big problem is our insular thinking in many ways.  Many believe that we are the best in everything conceivable.  So, when the argument was made that the systems overseas are akin to socialism, it was swallowed by many in the electorate because many had no way to truly compare.  Then you had the fact that for the "best health care system in the world" (supposedly) we were "only" paying an extra 30% per capita, and you have a difficult hoe.  

This time around you are looking at per capita cost being THREE TIMES as high as comparable countries overseas, and many people are now disillusioned, no longer are fully satisfied with the care they receive, let alone the amount of uninsureds has grown by more than 20% since 1992.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 10:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

George, I disagree with you vis-a-vis eployer mandates.  I think it is best if that link is broken because we are in a different time(I've actually heard Hillarys say this).  People do not stay with the same company, and middle class professionals now routinely go through periods of unemployment.

Regarding SCHIP, her expansion would make the majority of young people eligible for partially federally/ partially state funded($2 fed for every 1$ state)health coverage.

Here are three great articles about Hillary and health coverage:

This one is about Hillary's SCHIP and how it will lead to full UHC:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article s/2007/06/socialized_medicine_for_kids.h tml

This one is about how Hillary kept the lobbyist out of the negotiations in the '90's:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 807/Attacking_Hillarycare.html

This one is about how similar Hillary/Obama/Edwards are on the issues, and touches on UHC:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082501112. html?hpid=topnews


by bookgrl on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:53:53 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

A great diary George.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:02:54 PM EST

Hey George (none / 0)

Where can I get that OECD graph you showed?


by world dictator on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:48:19 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and healthcare (none / 0)

Georgep, this was a really good diary and the discussion thus far has been really good too.  


by Kingstongirl on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:53:26 PM EST

contact (none / 0)

Great diary, George.

George, could you please email me at markw@uci.edu?

(HWC, if you happen to see this, could you please email me as well?)

Thanks,
Mark


by markjay on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:37:56 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton healthcare (2.00 / 1)

"If you look at the actual corporate money, you will see that there is really no discernible difference between all 3 candidates when it comes to pharma money.  In fact, pharma makes up as big, if not even bigger percentage of Edwards total intake than Clinton's and Obama's.   Given that all 3 are raking in massive pharma money I can't reconcile your main point with what I have seen. "  

Care to provide a link to back up this BS?

How about this?
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2007/08/24/h ealth-sector-ponies-up-for-presidential- candidates/


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud" ...Arlo Guthrie
by DenverD on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:37:56 PM EST

Dennis Kucinich has the real answer. (none / 0)

Forget all this complexity (where most of the problems still remain anyway).

Dennis Kucinich has the answer: Medicare for All!
It's much more simple, efficient, and easy to understand, and, it works and actually solves all the problems.
No worries. No job issues. No rejections. No co-pays. Done!

As Kucinich points out, we are already paying for the program and the money that our Country currently spends is already enough to make it work (we are just wasting away 31 cents out of every dollar we put today into the corrupt for-profit Insurance racket).

There is no reason to continue to play this dance of corruption again and again with the Insurance companies and have this convoluted and failed system in place.  The only reason is because no President has yet sought to take on the Insurance Companies directly and tell them to go back to insuring property and stay the heck out of our Health Care.

A President that actually does this would be extraordinarily popular.  Nobody likes the "fine print" of Insurance companies in the first place, and it is very easy for John Q. Citizen to understand that they bilk and ripoff the public.

All it takes is simple leadership.

Dennis Kucinich is on our side here.
The question is are we on his?  and are we on our own?



For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:10:49 PM EST

Why don't we just wait for Hillary's pony? (none / 0)

It's going to be The Greatest Universal (maybe) Health Care Program Evah!  I can just tell!!!1!

But I feel like I'm hearing about Nixon's Secret Plan to End the War all over again.  Sheesh.

I'm tired of Hillary's perpetual specifics on smallball (violent video games and the like) and vagueness on Iraq and healthcare.

SCHIP is great, and expanding it is great too - and if we keep on expanding it, we'll have all kids covered by, I dunno, 2025?  Big whoop.  

Let's see what the Hillary plan is for people over 18.


by RT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:55:19 PM EST

Re: Why don't we just wait for Hillary's pony? (none / 0)

Her plan for SCHIP is for those 25 and younger.  It would achieve that in 5 years.  Or, maybe immediately.  I don't know.  I know it calls for a certain amount of funding over the next 5 years.  We haven't heard the rest of her plan, but she described the need to achieve UHC as "urgent", so let's just wait and hear whet she has to say in september.


by bookgrl on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's plan sounds like Bill Richardson's (none / 0)

<<Clinton said her universal health care plan would not involve a single-payer government system. Instead, she said she would consider expanding Medicare and allow people to join the federal employees insurance program.>>

First, Hillary HAS done really great things with SCHIP - hurrah!

The above sounds like the exact same thing Gov. Bill Richardson is offering in his (already unveiled) health care plan. He would start Medicare coverage at age 55, instead of current 65. He offers that anyone who wants to can buy into the federal health plan, with tax credits (sliding scale, depending on income) on your income taxes to help allay the costs.

As a self-employed person, Health Care is VERY important to me and these plans sound very similar. (We'll see the Hillary details in Sept.) So I'm looking at distinguishing factors to choose my candidate now.

So far: unlike Hillary leaving troops in Iraq an indeterminate am't of time, I appreciate Richardson's stance of removing ALL troops from Iraq, with no residual troops. If peace is our goal, it speaks volumes that he's the only candidate who's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize four times.

I appreciate Richardson's more aggressive energy/global warming policy (Sierra Club calls it the most aggressive and the most detailed of all candidates.) I appreciate that he has the experience as former Sec'y of Energy under Hillary's husband to know what it will really take to pull "energy independence" off. He's already worked with the major players in the arena.
   So far, I'm leaning toward Richardson. Let's see what new policy we hear in September!
-- DFinLA


by DFinLA on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 07:54:38 PM EST


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