What's the Sphere Waiting For?

John Edwards gave the speech of everyone's life the other day, a masterpiece of progressive populism, a verbal grenade tossed at the Establishment. The key line should be tattooed on Rahm Emanuel's face: "We cannot replace a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats, just swapping the Washington insiders of one party for the Washington insiders of the other." RTWT.

Not every pol could credibly deliver that speech. Few could. Only one top-tier contender could. It's the speech Edwards has been working toward since--well, perhaps since he was growing up working class in a struggling mill town, probably since he was an attorney fighting violent crime by corporations, certainly since he was making economic inequality the focus of his last campaign.

Edwards earned the ability to deliver that speech by preaching populism before populism was cool, by never taking a cent from K-Street, by fighting HMOs when he was a Senator, by helping to make poverty a big issue again, by breaking free from the Beltway, by casting his lot with unions, and, above all, by advocating positions that would give power to people at the expense of rich people and corporations. You can't say these words unless you have policies to back them up. The system, he said, is corrupt:


It's controlled by big corporations, the lobbyists they hire to protect their bottom line and the politicians who curry their favor and carry their water. And it's perpetuated by a media that too often fawns over the establishment, but fails to seriously cover the challenges we face or the solutions being proposed. This is the game of American politics and in this game, the interests of regular Americans don't stand a chance.

Real change starts with being honest -- the system in Washington is rigged and our government is broken. It's rigged by greedy corporate powers to protect corporate profits. It's rigged by the very wealthy to ensure they become even wealthier. At the end of the day, it's rigged by all those who benefit from the established order of things. For them, more of the same means more money and more power. They'll do anything they can to keep things just the way they are -- not for the country, but for themselves.

In short, Edwards gave a speech saying exactly what progressives want pols to say. Most people in the sphere were thrilled. Ivan, a Gore supporter, wrote a Daily Kos diary on the speech and it shot up the rec list, where it co-existed for most of the day with a diary on the same subject by Edwards blogger Tracy Joan: a rare twofer. You could feel the buzz.

But the reaction from the big blogs was mixed, at best. The only blogger with a sizable platform to praise the speech was Matt Yglesias. Taylor Marsh and Open Left's Brklyn Girl objected to Edwards's criticism of Hillary, Marsh because it reminded her of the GOP and Brooklyngirl because it reminded her of Nader. Hmm. As if the Clintons' corporate-kissing were delightful and should be beyond criticism. Note to Marsh: the Lincoln bedroom trangressions were exaggerrated but not fabricated by the rightwing. If progressive bloggers want the next president to be no less plutocratic than Bill Clinton, then they should say so. Oliver Willis complained that Edwards waited till he was behind (God forbid) to give this speech. Willis seems not to know that Edwards has been banging essentially this same drum for years and gave a very similar speech in June. Like some conventional journalist, Willis is hanging on the national horserace.

The reaction of big bloggers to JRE's sublime speech points to a larger issue: the failure, or slowness, of progressive bloggers to line up behind what Striling Newberry calls the "essentially progressive major candidate." Edwards isn't the only option for progressives--a case can be made for one or two others--but he increasingly looks like the best option, a once-in-a-generation combination of electoral and ideological strength that shouldn't be bypassed without a good reason.

Determining the relative progressivism of the candidates isn't a science, but conclusions can be made, differences discerned. Let's look at two vital issues: health care and climate change. Edwards is the only viable candidate to offer both a plan for universal health insurance and a bold plan on climate change. And he alone is prepared to give these issues the priority they deserve. Listen to the Nation.

The Democratic debate has been driven by the populism of John Edwards's "two Americas" rhetoric, as well as the boldness of his proposals on healthcare and energy...Only Edwards has challenged the Democratic fetish about balanced budgets, arguing that moving to new energy and providing healthcare are more important.

Yet the only big or biggish (subjective, I realize) blogger to have endorsed Edwards is The General. Chris Bowers declared himself a "staunch Edwards supporter" but retracted his endorsement without offering a reason. David Sirota often praises JRE but is holding off on an endorsement. Amanda Marcotte went to work for Edwards but hasn't endorsed him. None of the Daily Kos frontpagers has endorsed a candidate.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with being undecided--I remained undecided through the last election--but the paucity of endorsements tells me that bloggers are reluctant to take sides. Chris Bowers agrees. In a typically thoughtful post, he cited three reasons why he hasn't endorsed: the presence of netroots handlers on the campaigns (who are his friends), a desire for access to the campaigns, the lack of consensus among readers, to whom he's accountable. His reasons are understandable--but not compelling. If his readers are split, then he can't endorse? Come on. Lead. And if you're not doing something for fear of straining your relationships with people in power, friends or not, it's time to reevaluate your priorities.

Am I being too harsh? Maybe bloggers are doing what a lot of progressives are doing: waiting to make sure Gore doesn't run. I wrote a Kos diary a while ago calling on big bloggers to get off the fence. It prompted mostly indignation, but Miss Laura of Daily Kos made an interesting comment.

The fact that tons of people will be reading, judging, and often taking violent exception to your choice means you're going to think it through a little more carefully. Am I really prepared to have this conversation with hundreds or thousands of people who will feel free to use it to attack every single thing I say? Note that here I'm saying something deeper than "I have a preference but don't want to say" - I'm saying that knowledge of the meatgrinder my preference would be put through is making me extra extra careful in my choices.

Fair enough, but surely Miss Laura overstates the awfulness of Kossacks. The vast majority of us would accept and even respect a thoughtful, well-reasoned endorsement. Would a few jerks use the endorsement to attack her? Of course. Deal with it. Such is the price of having a prominent platform.

Blogs shouldn't try to force consensus; nor, though, should they remain neutral for neutrality's sake. Why does this matter? Because, for one thing, if progressive positions and framing don't win candidates progressive support, there will be less incentive to run left. And Edwards or Obama will likely need a push from the netroots to beat Hillary: make no mistake, to remain neutral, whether you're a union or a progressive blog, is to help Hillary. It's odd to see elite bloggers fretting about Hillary's lead at the same time that they refuse to get behind an opposing candidate. And the sphere itself will suffer if it fails to give explicit support to a candidate, or candidates. There's strength in consensus, obviously. A progressive sphere that doesn't back a progressive candidate is less influential than it could and should be.


Poll
Should bloggers endorse?
Yes
No
Who Cares?

Votes: 31
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


I'd love to know (2.00 / 7)

people's thoughts on the question of blogger endorsements.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:16:15 PM EST

Re: I'd love to know (2.00 / 6)

I think there are a lot of in the closet Edwards supporters in high places.  They are scared to come out.


by jsamuel on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mine was huge (2.00 / 3)

Dodd is rocketing now.

snark.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mine was huge (2.00 / 4)

As for the question, absolutely they should endorse if they support a candidate.

I think this is especially so if a blogger can demonstrate the ability to be intelligible and objective (within reason) when discussing the race anyway.

I like to think I can do that. I like to think everyone can.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

firefighters knew BTD is a bad-ass (2.00 / 5)

Good work scoring that endorsement for Dodd...


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The best thing about BTD's (none / 0)

choice of Dodd is that he'll have a couple more opportunities to endorse after Dodd gets tired of seeing his position at the bottom of the polls. Kind of like your description of what happens at the Iowa caucuses.
by oculus on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTD (2.00 / 6)

You and I have had our differences, but I have to say, I respect your willingness to endorse. It hasn't stopped you from praising other candidates, and people still seem to listen to you.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mine was huge (2.00 / 4)

At least you chose one.

I have no problem with you choosing or your choice.

Dodd is very good on the issues.   I prefer Edwards, but I also like Dodd's positions.  If Edwards were not in the race, I would seriously consider Dodd.

More importantly, you got out there and, in Teddy Roosevelt's words, "entered the arena."


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (2.00 / 3)

Several thoughts.

a) I am againt them  because I want bloggers to hold all candidates' feet to the fire.

b) That being said, I think a different dynamic is at play. Big Tent Democrat in a post over at Talk Left sums it up as a focus on the horserace over issues. If they are more concerned with the horserace than issue, then, of course, who ever is the most progressive or not, will not matter. Why should it if your goal is strategery rather than the substance of what a candidate is saying?

b) I think the issue for bloggers is not objectivity at this point. At least amongst the establishment bloggers, the goal is, well, to be a part of the establishment. To be legitimate. Legitimacy isn't per se bad thing. But it can be, if it results in caution for fear of pissing of whoever is the eventual nominee.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (2.00 / 2)

I don't see what you can't hold someone's feet to the fire if you've endorsed. Did you ever notice the weight given Sirota's praise of Obama, in part because he's seen as Edwards supporter?

Look, I understand the reluctance of bloggers to endorse. If, say, Bowers endorses Edwards, then some of what he writes will be seen through the prism of his endorsement, but ultimately what he writes will be judged on its merits.

If Bowers doesn't want Hillary to be the nominee, then the most powerful thing he can do is to put his name and reputation behind one of her opponents. It takes a little bit of courage--not a lot but some.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (none / 0)

it was easy for them to have courage when they had nothing to lose. now, maybe with the whole "profesionalization" of bloggers, maybe he think he does. its not disparagement to point out that this is why it maybe harder. it doesnt mean they won't come to it. it does mean that it will require a bit more effort than in the goold old days.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (none / 0)

by legitimizing the phrase "Corporate Democrat" for his selfish gain.

As such his record while in the senate was quite "centrist". Show me three votes where Hillary Clinton and Edwards differed during 2001-2004 when they shared the senate that shows he is less "Corporate" than her?

I don't support Hillary or Edwards for the nomination, because both were busy hawking the war until it began, but I ask you to show me the record to even logically justify this selfish tactic/rhetoric by Edwards.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Selfish gain??? (2.00 / 2)

Edwards don't need Universal Healthcare. We do. Or more specifically. I do. Edwards don't have to do ANYTHING at all. Except that he's a workaholic. I think that's exactly what we need the next 8 eight years...a complete anthesis to Bush....a progressive workaholic, working for the people because, he won't be positioning himself to get rich after his presidency is over.  He did that all on his own already, which is probably what the corporate media & the corporate democrats HATE the most. They can't pull his financial strings. He doesn't really need them. But we, need him.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Presidential candidates should NOT spin labels (none / 0)

on fellow candidates.

He should instead stick to arguing on the merits of his plans vis-a-vis his rivals'.

If you want labels, well, it isn't hard. And I have boatloads of evidence to back the labels too.


Neocon Warmongering Democrats (NWD) .

Edwards and Hillary were both playing Neocon Democrats when they were hawking the war all the way until it began.

Proof:

  1. Neocon Warmongering Democrat John Edwards
  2. Neocon Warmongering Democrat Hillary Clinton

How does being labeled feel?


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your obsession (none / 0)

is so apparent.  Bizarre comments.

When Gore endorses Edwards, I will smile.  


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

One possible explanation of the phoneyness seen in your partcipation around here are the inherent contradictions in supporting a deeply flawed candidate like John Edwards.

"When Gore endorses Edwards, I will smile."

There ISN'T a very good chance that Gore will endorse Edwards, as Gore likely figured out what Edwards is made of when Edwards was playing a Neocon warmongering Democrat in co-sponsoring and hawking the war all the way until it began, and then through 2004, before shifting sails 180° at an opportune moment.

My first exposure to Edwards was that of a town hall meeting shown on TV in late 2003 where he insisted that voting for the IWR and invading Iraq was the "right thing to do."


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 02:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Selfish gain??? (none / 0)

Edwards a "workaholic"?

Link, please.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow... you continue to be not that bright (none / 0)

you're setting a record for longevity in dumb.


by DrFrankLives on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (none / 0)

If the Democratic Party does something stupid, it should be called out.

If you want a homogenous party that doesn't disagree on anything, then become a Republican.

If some Democrats are sold out to the highest bidder, then they are as filthy as the Republicans are.

You know what you call people who can say that?  "PRINCIPLED."


by OE on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (2.00 / 1)

That's been my same concern about Edwards.  And now he's pushing a much more progressive agenda that "coincidentally" provides a niche to run for President.

However, I'm nevertheless leaning toward Edwards, mostly because he'd have a very difficult time going back on the progressive platform he's laid out.

(You've said that Edwards is "selfish," but what politician isn't?)


by justinh on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (none / 0)

i see- well good luck with alll that convuluted thinking. by the- way- like i asked of the lincoln bed room story- is he room on the issue? i mean you talk and talk and talk and frankly talk- but thats the core question


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Factor in NY v. NC (none / 0)

What's center-right in NY can be about as far left as you can pull the NC electorate.

Hillary has been a paragon of centrist caution from one of the safest blue states in the country.  She's exactly the sort of Dem who needs a primary challenger when the time comes.


by RT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (2.00 / 1)

I am posting material which shows that Edwards' record doesn't distinguish him as being against free trade agreements. Voting record (all issues) comparison also included for careful perusal by readers and other considering endorsements.


Barack Obama on Free Trade

   *  Reinvest in communities that are burdened by globalization. (Jun 2007)
    * Insist on labor and human rights standards for China trade. (Jul 2004)
    * Fair trade should have tangible benefits for US. (Jun 2004)
    * Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)
    * Voted NO on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)


John Edwards on Free Trade

   * We need smart trade, not fair trade vs. free trade. (Feb 2007)
    * Globalization means more education needed for success. (Feb 2007)
    * Renegotiate NAFTA rather than cancel it. (Feb 2004)
    * Require labor and environmental standards plus right-to-know. (Jan 2004)
    * Against NAFTA, against Chile trade, against Singapore trade. (Jan 2004)
    * Level the playing field for American workers. (Nov 2003)
    * I supported steel tariffs, but now ease off. (Sep 2003)
    * National venture capital fund for those hurt by trade. (Sep 2003)
    * Against Fast Track--not enough for US workers. (Jul 2003)
    * Voted NO on establishing free trade between US & Singapore. (Jul 2003)
    * Voted NO on establishing free trade between the US and Chile. (Jul 2003)
    * Voted YES on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
    * Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)
    * Voted YES on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)
    * Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China. (Sep 2000)
    * Voted NO on expanding trade to the third world. (May 2000)
    * Rated 17% by CATO, indicating a pro-fair trade voting record. (Dec 2002)



Hillary Clinton on Free Trade

   *  End tax breaks for outsourcing jobs. (Jun 2007)
    * Globalization should not substitute for humanization. (Jun 1999)
    * Supports MFN for China, despite concerns over human rights. (Oct 2000)
      Voting Record
    * Voted against CAFTA despite Bill Clinton's pushing NAFTA. (Oct 2005)
    * Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)

   * Voted NO on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)

   * Voted YES on establishing free trade between US & Singapore. (Jul 2003)
    * Voted YES on establishing free trade between the US and Chile. (Jul 2003)
    * Voted NO on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
    * Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)
    * Voted YES on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)
    * Rated 17% by CATO, indicating a pro-fair trade voting record. (Dec 2002)

~~

Please see the following extensive and exhaustive comparisons between the voting records of:

  • Edwards and Hillary (2001-2004)
  • Obama and Hillary (2005-2006)
by Daily Kos poster DemocraticLuntz.


1. Hillary Clinton vs. John Edwards: Voting Records Part 1

2. Hillary Clinton v. John Edwards: Voting Records Part 2

3. Hillary Clinton v. John Edwards Part 3 (2003-2004)

4. Hillary Clinton vs. Barack Obama Part 1 (2005)

5. Hillary Clinton vs. Barack Obama Part 2 (2006)



Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (2.00 / 1)

This is classic hid the ball. Your thesis was that Edwards wasn't interest in corporate dems which he used in relationship to taking money from corporate America, which he has not taken. When challenged, you bring up free trade. You may have a point on free trade as to whether he is the most progressive candidate, BUT, to use that in the context of his specific point about the influence of money in DC and the influence of corporate America directly on our represents is well- misdirection. You seem to think you are 'openning' our eyes regarding Edwards. Only really did , at least for me, was convince me you have no legitimate response to the particulars of what he was saying.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:08:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Show me where Edwards defined (none / 0)

"Corporate Democrat". He should define it, and also make clear which ones of his Opponents he is implicating as being "Corporate Democrats", name by name.

Your thesis was that Edwards wasn't interest in corporate dems which he used in relationship to taking money from corporate America, which he has not taken.

My only thesis above was that Edwards legitimizing the phrase "Corporate Democrat" amounts to smearing the Democratic party and his opponents.

Yes, from what I can tell he doesn't money from lobbyist directly. But...

Edwards campaign did take money (large sums, I believe) from hedge fund employees. He may have returned his Q2 funds from Fortress etc once his involvement with the hedge fund Fortress became public, but I haven't seen if he did the same thing with  Q1 funds from Fortress and other hedge funds. Second, he has refused to disclose the full financial details of his non-profits. I want to see if the donors for that were from Fortress and other corporations. Third, he is presumably drawing a lot of money from trial lawyers. I have nothing against lawyers and trial lawyers, but why should their support be considered any purer than that from other groups? Given these questions, I don't think that Edwards' fundraising is as pure and wonderful as he may want others to believe.

When challenged, you bring up free trade.

I asked David at DKos to explain, and he came back with "free" trade comparisons. I posted a response from there as it is useful here as well.

Besides, why do you imply that he was only talking about campaign contributions when he is using the term "Corporate Democrat?"

He was surely talking about trade. Did you read the speech:


"Trade policy is all about corporate profits.."

"by requiring that every new trade deal puts workers and wages first.

"You seem to think you are 'openning' our eyes regarding Edwards. Only really did , at least for me, was convince me you have no legitimate response to the particulars of what he was saying."

Edwards employs shifty rhetoric on trade and minimum wage etc, when his record while in the senate was "centrist" on trade, and not different from any Democrat (just about) on min. wage.

This new smear "Corporate Democrat" is fine for making blog posts on by diarists, but not fine for a Democratic Presidential candidate to be employing to smear fellow-Democrats and fellow-Dem candidates on the campaign.

Mike Huckabee, a populist (apparently), could very well take Edwards' smears using this stupid label and make ads of them in the general election to hurt the eventual Democratic nominee.

Edwards needs to back off using labels to attacks Dems. He should argue based on the merits of plans and proposals of his vs those of his primary race competition. He should also be either consistent with his past record, or explain clearly and in detail why, if and when his rhetoric doesn't match his record.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 07:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me where Edwards defined (2.00 / 3)

He did define it. You simply ignore what he said in favor of your agenda. Like I said, you may have a point, but a) I would have to look it up and b) that point clearly has nothing do with what he said in the speech. Your giving a length disertation about how you want to push a square peg into a circle ain't going to change that.

And it's not a smear against the Democratic party. He didn't say Democratic Party. He said modified the word Democrat with a specific word. Not to get into language choice, but your manipulation here in terms of the use of language is odd. He's talking about a certain subset of Democrats, which by definition means he's not talking about all Democrats. Your argument fails on simple logic, but I doubt you will admit to that.

The truth is not a smear. There is a habit on this site lately to confuse what a smear is. A smear is a statement that is either untrue or substantiately untrue or misleading or something of that nature. Saying that there is too much money in DC, and that the Democrats who are taking that money shouldn't be doing so- isn't a smear. It's a fact. If our winning elections means we must surrender reality to your delusion- well, I guess I am going to have to be accused of smearing a lot when it somes to the issue of money's influence in DC.

This isn't the equivalent of Obama comparing some amorphous group of Democrats to being anti religious because the statement Obama was making was factually false in terms of the Democrats in Washington. The statement regarding some Democrats being influenced by corporate interest- including Biden with the credit card companies- is not.

By the way, it's not lost of me that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you try to attack Edwards for not quite meaing what he say by bringing up extraneous material to the speech he gave, but then try to flip to say that the use of the label alone is offensive to all Democrats based on the speech he gave. You are saying he didn't go far enough, but then he goes too far. Make up your mind without engage in the now rather tired he doesn't mean what he says. Your thesis, the implicit one, is not proven by what he says and his actions on the subject of lobby money, for example.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 07:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

boatload of BS (none / 0)

Edwards said:


The choice for our party could not be more clear. We cannot replace a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats, just swapping the Washington insiders of one party for the Washington insiders of the other.

That is smear of the Democratic party and legitimization of the bad label on the Democratic party.

When Edwards was in Washington, many of his votes, such as in favor of China MFN, can be seen as an "insider" type of vote.

His entire non-stop hawking of the neocon Iraq war from 2002 to till 2004 smacks of playing toady to the war-mongers in the Washington establishment. See here How Edwards sold the war.

Your hits at me have no basis in reality, but they do in your agenda.

I want the entire public record of our candidates to be out there and I want everyone to get to know that record while making their decisions. Then, there would be no need for me to even talk about the 2008 election. I oppose obfuscation, and support facts being made available to everyone. My long comment with freetrade and voting record comparison is an objective compilation, encouraging readers to explore and empowere themselves with information instead of accepting spins from either the candidates or their supporters such as yourself.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: boatload of BS (2.00 / 2)

Saying "that's a smear" doesn't make it so.

Today, in another diary, I saw something I want to repeat to cut through the fakeness of your logic or lack there of.

In the case there, the poster retorted quite correctly that the following isn't logical. "Far right wing nutcase says X. X is true. Dem labels X a smear although X is true. Dem says X. Dem according your logic is now smearing although X is true, and in fact, you would now label X false."

Here, the question is only whether some Dems are indeed taking corporate money. You can't  argue that isn't true. so you left to fake, as you are doing here, that the truth is actually a smear. Once more having commit an illogical argument you compound your mistake by taking some Democrats to mean all. I am not going to repeat this post because I can't handle your illogical thinking.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: boatload of BS (2.00 / 1)

Oh, and one othere reason I am not wasting time with you- slipping in yet more irrelevant points to what you first claimed. You can't defend that orignal point so you keep trying to slip in additional shit. Nice try though.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're the one faking by trying to equate, (none / 0)

speciously the following two:

A. Dems are taking some money from corporations
B. Dems are Corporate Dems.

and to imply that that's all that Edwards meant.

The truth is Edwards was implying far more with his "Corporate Democrats" smear. It's clear from his speech, as I blockquoted.

Secondly, Dems do have to some corporate money at GE time to beat the Republicans in the current system. I am sure Edwards didn't oppose Kerry/Edwards campaign taking corporate money for the general election.

Third, Edwards was taking money from individual with questionable connections such as hedge funds.

Fourth, I actually HATE the influences that various people including corporations and other special interest groups (such as neocons that want to promote their stupid ideology of waging unnecessary war) have on the political system. I'd like to see:

  • full public financing
  • extremely strict lobbying reform, with full disclosure of every communication between lobbyists and our elected representatives.

I have posted many times over that I want top see that kind of reforms to be put in place.

Fifth, Edwards is running for President. When he says 'don't elect Corporate Democrats, but elect me', he is implying that he is not a Corporate Dem but his opponents are. In legitimizing the phrase, he is smearing the Democratic party.

Had he said: 'Hillary refused to not take lobbyist money, I am not taking such money, and Obama is not taking any such money'. Then, he'd be telling the the truth. I would not have a problem with that. But, at the same time, Hillary camp is going to question the sources of his money, past and present.

While we talk about fund raising, I just learned yesterday from a comment posted at DKos that Edward'04 campaign plead guilty to violating the law on... prohibited corporate contributions


For Immediate Release, FEC
June 22, 2006

TURNER & ASSOCIATES, TAB TURNER, AND EDWARDS FOR PRESIDENT TO PAY CIVIL PENALTIES

Washington -- The Federal Election Commission announced today that Tab Turner, his law firm, Turner & Associates of Little Rock Arkansas (the Firm), and Edwards for President (the principal campaign committee of John Edwards' 2004 campaign) have agreed to pay a total of $59,500 in civil penalties for violations of the Federal Election Campaign Act (the Act) and FEC regulations over prohibited corporate contributions and making contributions in the name of another.
...

Edwards for President admitted it violated the Act by accepting prohibited in-kind contributions from Turner and Associates.  Edwards for President also violated the Act by accepting a contribution made by Mr. Turner in the name of his brother and sister-in-law.  In order to settle the matter, Edwards for President will not further contest this finding and will pay a $9,500 civil penalty.

That adds another new entry in the long list of two faced duality that John Edwards seems to carry on just about everything.

I told you my original thesis: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party when is casually throws around phrase "Corporate Democrats." And there is question that he is.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're the one faking by trying to equate, (none / 0)

you will have the last word, because you aren't very logical although I sure you think y ou are.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

correction: (none / 0)

last para should be:

I told you my original thesis: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party when he casually throws around the phrase "Corporate Democrats." And there is no question that he does.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: boatload of BS (none / 0)

It's not a smear in my book, it's finally someone who will stand up and tell the truth about the crap that the Dems are pulling and saying they will make a difference. That's why I support Edwards. If you are happy with the track record of Bill Clinton and congress and the DLC then Edwards is not your guy.


by greenvtster on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 04:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a spam job. (1.71 / 7)

Anyone can copy and paste.  So silly; so obsessed.  


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:15:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

troll-rating and hiding for employing personal (none / 0)

smears against me as a substitute for arguments based on evidence.

When I am providing valuable information for the readers, calling it "spam" is a cheap and phoney political smear tactic. Such conduct by you is a disgrace you're perpetrating on the blogosphere.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ratings abuse - stop it (2.00 / 4)

maybe you missed the explanation of the new system. Stop the abuse.


by okamichan13 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rating abuse. (2.00 / 3)

Very revealing.

You flatter yourself far too much: "valuable information."  LOL.  

This all seems to be some obsessive fantasy of yours.

Spam is spam.  Troll rate all you want.  It's still spam and it's still obsessive behavior that is improper at MyDD.  


by TomP on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards is smearing the Democratic party (2.00 / 1)

Edwards isn't smearing anyone and he's not saying that democrats ARE corporate democrats, he's saying that some democrats are entirely too weded to corporate interests and that we cannot simply replace corporate republicans with corporate democrats or their elites with our elites and expect things to be much different. We need to replace them with progressives of which there are many in the democratic party and Edwards often talks about what the democratic party represents to him at it's best and that it's important that the those in the democratic party live up to what we are at our best.

It's along the lives of what David Sirota says that it's more complicated than just democrats vs republicans it's the money party vs the people party and the money party has members from both the democrats and the republicans in it. Most (all?) republicans in congress are of the money party, but some democrats are also of the money party and we need to speak out against those democrats and work to reform the democratic party and to ensure that we elect progressive democrats and not just any democrat and especially not corporate democrats.

I don't think you should be taking issue with that. Corporate democrats certainly exist and we should be working against them at every turn just as they work against progressive interests at every turn. What I think it's more reasonable to take issue with is whether candidate x, y, or z is a corporate democrat or not. I say that Hillary, Richardson, Biden and now Obama seems to be. Obama does take in quite a bit of small donor money from excited people, but he's sourounded by free traders and big money people. He's taken in a ton of big corporate and wall street money and is involved with the free trader rubinomics sorts. The perception that he is different than that and not of the establishment is how he's able to cash in on the small donor base and the reality of how he is explains how he's able to also cash in on the big money as he does. If the perception is shattered than his small donor base could take quite the big hit.


by Quinton on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 09:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW (none / 0)

Excellent post.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (2.00 / 1)

I think you are right on in the post. I can understand why someone, or a blogger, would be still on the fence (some still hope for Gore!) at this time. But by the Fall, the choice will be made. I've had an easier time ruling out than choosing, as my top choices have all opted not to run.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (2.00 / 2)

Well I can't understand, and after two years of participation, I'm beginning to wonder if I understand progressive blogs or bloggers at all.  I thought we were about making change, taking our country back, and reclaiming the middle.  If I had a magic wand would I pick Edwards?  No, I would pick Dean, but that isn't the point.  Edwards is the only one out there that's singing our song and has half a chance of getting elected.  So why aren't the progressive bloggers rallying behind a "progressive" candidate.  We supported anti-choice Casey because he was a D, and now we can't support Edwards.  One lesson I am taking away from the blogs, maybe erroneously but none the less, is that I need to keep my wallet closed unless I'm putting my money into a candidate from my state.  Are bloggers simply Democratic fundraisers?  I thought we were a cause, but I'm really beginning to wonder what we are.


Follow the money
by dkmich on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (none / 0)

Most of the time before Nov 2006, one could read a post somewhere on one of the blogs about how the blogs aren't an ATM, and that the establishment should treat the blogs with respect. My thing is- now that you got it, what are you going to do with it is a very reasonable question to ask.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd love to know (none / 0)

I wasn't talking about the candidates, I was talking about the bloggers.  They only leadership from any of them that I see is raising money.  Then they have opinions on who to support and fund raise for, and then they actively lead in this process.  When it comes to policy or endorsing a presidential candidate, then they have to be neutral.  don't buy it.  


Follow the money
by dkmich on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Dailykos has gone on an all-out war on Hillary these days.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:18:17 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

what more do you want?


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is false. (2.00 / 3)

In fact, Kos is posting GE polls favoring Hillary in states.

Can you differentiate between Front Pagers and the back pages?

 


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton wouldn't win one red state.  Keep letting the polls fool ya'.

Nominate Hillary Clinton and lose the House and the Senate.  By virtue of who she is, the election would be close, and any close election is what the Republicans want, because as long as it's close they will still it.

John Edwards would have the greatest coat tails effect, and have the greatest chance of winning states like Kentucky or Oklahoma.

Anyone who thinks Hillary Clinton would have a chance of winning in Kentucky must be very naive.


by OE on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Maybe.  But this statement "Nominate Hillary Clinton and lose the House and the Senate" is not credible.  Nobody believes that (aside from a very, very few like yourself) and that includes many people who dislike her intensely.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

And there was a time when almost NOBODY believed the world was round.

I could really care less what "NOBODY" believes.

I was right about EVERYTHING in 2004, and I'm right about this as well.

When the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot by nominating Hillary Clinton, and you end up with an autocratic Republican with intelligence that Bush doesn't have in the White House in 2008, make sure you slap yourself in the face for being too blind to see it coming.


by OE on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Well, you do the same when your "predictions" don't come out the way you think, ok?  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How do you define (none / 0)

"these days"? Note: Kos did say recently he'll vote for her if she is the nominee.
by oculus on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 3)

I liked Bonior's (Edwards' rep on MSNBC this morning) reemphasis on the looming battle on Iraq in September.

Edwards can really make a strong break amonst the Big 3 if he gets out ahead on this.

My hope is that Dodd breaks out with it now but I give kudos to the Edwards to for refocusing on this.

LEADING NOW! can be a winning move.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:19:39 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Why were these guys on MSNBC this morning?


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's their normal Super Tuesday thing (2.00 / 1)

the last Tuesday of the month.

It is all day politics coverage.

McAuiliffe was the Hillary rep.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's their normal Super Tuesday thing (1.00 / 0)

did moustache Alexrod(?) upset you again? haha, what did he say?


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

I'm an Edwards supporter, but a fairly tepid one, because I believe that the other Big Two (as well as the usual suspect of the second tier) would be just fine, too.

Actually, Clinton is probably my fourth choice, but despite my preferences I think she'd be a great president. And the first woman president is hugely exciting. I'm utterly confident that she'd win the general, and the gender issue is big.

Same with Obama. I think he'd be great. Not as good as Edwards, but still great. And have a black president ... I tried to end this sentence with an intelligent thought, but ran out of superlatives. It'd be really good.

And because I think everyone is just like me, I think this is one reason the Big Mouths haven't endorsed. Even our worst reasonable choice represents a watershed moment in American politics--and a hugely impressive person, too.


by BingoL on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:31:40 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 3)

the watershed for me isn't whether there is a black president (i am african american) its whether we get one who will shift this country beyond the reagan revolution. not all of the choices can do that.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

Well, I think we're facing three possible watershed moments. I support Edwards because I most highly value the one I think he represents, but that doesn't mean the other two possibilities aren't really important to me. And exciting.


by BingoL on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

I guess I should point out I am not into identity politics. I used to be, but then I saw that Condi Rice and others can use that as a way to cover a lot of bad things that don't help women, African Americans and other groups out. In fact, in politics, these are often used as tools to avoid debate rather than help it.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Yeah, I was going to say something about that. I'm slightly surprised how little the 'sphere' has made of the watershed possibilities of Obama's race and Clinton's gender. I think this is because people are not, as you say, into identity politics.

But I'm not really sure that what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that the identity is somehow the overriding attribute, just a v. important secondary one. A President Obama would represent such an -obvious- change for this country, even setting aside his probable policies (which, to my mind, aren't as attractive as Edwards's), and I think there's value there. In his name and his race. From Bush, the son of a dynastic family, combining the worst of the Eastern establishment with the Texan oilocracy, a man who'd never even left the continent before becoming President, to Barack Obama ... That's a long journey, and one that I think matters.

The argument for Clinton is weaker. Yes, it's long past time for a woman president. But Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton doesn't -seem-, at least, like a wonderful break from the past.

I don't know. Can one be only -party- into identity politics?


by BingoL on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I suppose one can partly be into id politics, but I find the emotional temptations too strong in terms of my own psyche. it's easy to gloss over some pretty onerous behavior when one is looking at identity over action. I mean- thatcher was a woman, but she's not what I would want for America. I'll have pride after the fact if they enact policies that truly help women and minorities. I won't have it before the fact simply because they are a woman or minority.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

two for one (none / 0)

I think Obama gives us two-for-one watershed moments. He is the one who will move the center of American politcs to the left.

I don't understand why people are ignoring the unique excitement Obama is bringing to the progressive movement.

If we don't pick him for our nominee we will kick ourselves forever. Like the two teams that passed on Micheal Jordan (yes I'm from Chicago).  


by JoeCoaster on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (2.00 / 1)

Well, since I do not believe Obama is doing that, even though he COULD, it is one of the bigest themes of my criticism of him.

I think that Obama supporters do not like to hear this and sort of block out that critique.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (2.00 / 1)

It's my criticism, too.  He uses the same old rhetoric, which makes it hard to tell if he will really push a progressive agenda or not.  It's difficult to support a politican because he's "exciting" (i.e. liking a candidate because he's likeable).


by justinh on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (none / 0)

Maybe your criticism is blocked out because it is based on "belief". We don't know what any of the people are going to do once they get the job.

I look to their histories for clues of their real agenda and try to judge their character based on the glimpses that we get of them.

In Obama I just see an incredible progressive political talent that would be a shame to throw away. The whole country would follow this guy. Lets give them that chance.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (2.00 / 1)

It is based on rhetoric.

Rhetoric is underestimated in importance for politics, policiy and persuasion.


by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (none / 0)

I also believe that a politician should be judged on rhetoric. But you can't just look at the content of a speech .... does the rhetoric have the power to move the masses (ie: MLK, JFK, Lincoln).

All the great progressive policy statements in the world do you no good if the nation is not following you. When Obama speaks people listen.

There are two pages of youtube videos just of Obama's Springfield Announcement speech. Edwards only has two entries of his.

Unless you think Obama is a fraud why not tap into that excitement.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (none / 0)

I agree. He should definitely be Edwards's running mate :)


by adamterando on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 04:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: two for one (none / 0)

I think Obama has made it quite clear that he doesn't think the structural problems in this country as manifested by corporate power do not require a restoration of the balance of power between them and a peoples government. Tweaking yes, large changes, no.


by adamterando on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 04:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 6)

I don't understand what the unions and the bloggers are waiting for.  If you want to have influence you need to show that you can influence the direction of support.

Did Dean losing or Clark losing make people more hesitant?  Dean may have lost the nomination, but the netroots won in being considered important.  Dean won influence in the Democratic Party.

The unions keep waiting to go with the winner.  But if they go with the obvious winner, why should the winner give them any credit?  Also why should the next progressive candidate work so hard for them and their agenda and not get support?

This seems to me, to be playing DC type games.  I do want to know who they support.  I may argue, be dismissive or be thrilled, but I want the interaction.

It is interesting to watch new bloggers on the big blogs evolve by taking positions whereas the big names are beginning to be not part of the discussion.  They hold back and seem to dampen the enthusiasm.   A large percentage of regular bloggers are excited about Edwards.  I also see excitement for Obama and Clinton.  

I think the A-list bloggers may be giving up their influence for some idea of neutrality that I don't think serves the progressive movement.  I hope to see more really evaluate who they believe would be the best progressive candidate.  There seems to be some hesitancy because he has reached out to the netroots.  It is an odd reaction.  

I agree with David that the most progressive candidate we have seen in 40 years is John Edwards.  


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:33:52 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 6)

Yes, that speech was ignored on the front pages of many A-List blogs.  Why?

There are many possible explanations for all or part of the dynamic you describe.  Here are just a few off the top of my head.

Some bloggers now are professionals.  Pick a candidate and you can alienate another candidate's supporters.  Traffic may go down, and ad revenue with it.  I think it changes things, and not always for the better.  Maybe not even consciously, but it may impact how things are seen.  Neutrality is safer.

Others now are more "respected" and may even "get a seat at the table."   I think it changes things, and not always for the better.

Working class issues do not aways enthuse bloggers, the majority of which are from an upper middle class background.  They are for it in theory, but ....   If Edwards is anything, it's having a working class origin and fighting for working class issues.  Abstract ideas may be fun for some bloggers.

Some just do not like Edwards (maybe from 2003 when they supported other candidates -- I don't know).  Stollers' comment that Edwards' approach to fighting poverty was " little racist" betrayed a personal animus (and was just plain stupid).

Some really cannot decide.

Some prefer Gore.

Some may feel they "should" be neutral.  They want the discourse and not to influence it.

Some may still feel it is too early.

Of course, the blogosphere is just people.  The elties now may not be elite tomorrow.  Things change.  Maybe new bloggers and new blogs will arise.  

The best I expect is neutrality.  Real change takes courage.  

In any event, you bring up very interestng questions.  

Be prepared to duck as you are flamed by supporters of the elite bloggers.


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:35:59 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)


Working class issues do not aways enthuse bloggers, the majority of which are from an upper middle class background.  They are for it in theory, but ....     Abstract ideas may be fun for some bloggers.

I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly. It is obvious, many, if not most bloggers are just elitists.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is not what I said (2.00 / 1)

at all.

I said that some A-List bloggers had upper-middle class backgrounds.

Not even a good try at misstating my position.  You cannot even construct a strawman.

That may be your opinion, but it is not mine.  Indeed, based on yoru comments, I woudl hazzard a guess that your support of Hillary Clinton is tied to your desire to keep the status quo.

Furthermore, it is my view that your tactics here for Clinton are to disrupt, not to debate.  I have seen enough to judge your tactics.  


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The timidity (2.00 / 8)

in endorsing a candidate is a BAD sign for blogsphere, which rose to prominance precisely BECAUSE it was not calculating, but rather committed to saying the truth.

I can already see the timidity creeping in, and already I see the signs of the one thing that can destory the blogs: they are becoming predictable and boring.


by fladem on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:37:06 PM EST

Re: The timidity (2.00 / 2)

bingo- exactly right.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The timidity (2.00 / 4)

I agree. Timidity and playing it safe is not healthy for the blogosphere in general although I don't see the majority of the blogosphere holding back, just the elite bloggers.

The masses, so to speak, those who keep the blogosphere going, seem to be decided and are speaking out.

I'd hate to see progressive blogs turn into ghost towns because being tempid and playing it safe becomes the norm.


by NCDemAmy on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The timidity (2.00 / 4)

I think you're onto something.  I hope new blogs will spring up with more force to take the old guard's place if that happens, but it may not.


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The timidity (none / 0)

You can still be committed to telling the truth without endorsing a candidate at this stage in the game.  It's impossible to compare the environment of this pres. election with the last one.  Basically, we've got an embarassment of riches in a favorable environment.  any of our guys would be so much better than the last eight years.  When everything in the case looks good, it's hard to settle on one donut.


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The clock's ticking, though (2.00 / 2)

Maybe, but time's running out.  Even if Iowa stays in January, it's just over 4 months until Iowa.  And if Hillary wins Iowa, she's gonna be all but impossible to stop.

If, six weeks from now, the Big Bloggers are still sitting on their hands, not wanting to endorse anyone too soon, the moment of opportunity will have passed.  

Memo to Kos and his front-pagers, to Chris and Matt and Jerome and Jonathan Singer, to Jane and Christy and Digby and Atrios and anyone else who is sufficiently un-wonky to actually push candidates: if you don't want Hillary, it's time to choose someone else, and throw your weight behind him.

Because if nothing happens to change the dynamic, Hillary will wrap it up early.

So, who's going to change the dynamic?  Is the blogosphere about waiting to see who or what's going to change it, or about being the change?


by RT on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:24:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The clock's ticking, though (none / 0)

The blogosphere is made up of many, many people with different opinions and preferences.  I don't see the blogosphere as some cohesive unit when it comes to the three candidates.  They all have something to offer to the progressive sphere.  That is the reason Edwards is not wholeheartedly endorsed by anyone.   He has warts and problems and may just not have made the sale even with frontpage bloggers.   If it were, say, Edwards vs. Lieberman, the choice would be easy.  But Clinton has some elements that make her very attractive to many on the sphere.   The same is true for Obama (who I believe for instance is Todd Beeton's choice.)    I think the "sphere" on the whole likes all 3 candidates and also has plenty to dislike about all 3.   Thus, no rallying around one candidate.    


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 3)

Well, stated! Edwards is the most progressive candidate by far.


by cmpnwtr on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:46:21 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I will actually like to see Daily Kos endorse Edwards , that will be fun.

I hope the MSM covers the endorsement.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:47:17 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

DailyKos is not a blogger.  It is a site with quite a few well known Front Page bloggers.  I would be surprized to see Markos endorse Edwards, but some of the others might.

But your statement makes no sense. Especially in the context that Mizner is talking about.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Actually I don't care if all the posters on the front page of Daily Kos endorse Edwards or even posters that are not frontpagers.

If I was running in an election , that is the last endorsement I would want . I do not think Edwards will be appreciative of an endorsement from the front pagers of Daily Kos.

I don't see how it is a positive , if I was an undecided voter and I hear that the front pagers on Daily Kos endorsed Edwards it will make me less likely to vote for him. Edwards definitely cannot win even with all the entire bloggers endorsement in his pocket , he has to expand his appeal and an endorsement like that ( Kos Frontpagers ) make it less likely I'll vote for that candidate.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely!

I think Edwards would hate an endorsement from such an ugly hotbed of Democratic activism. He's also run from union endorsements, I imagine--I mean, given the whole Jimmy Hoffa thing. And the nail in his coffin would be an endorsement from Tavis Smiley: an endorsement like -that-, and I know I wouldn't vote for the candidate!


by BingoL on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Thats not a fair comparison to me :

There is no way I'll compare the crowd at Daily Kos with the unions or Tavis Smiley.

I seriously doubt an endorsements by the bloggers at Daily Kos will be a positive to Edwards , he already has their support , a formal endorsement will probably be a net negative because moderate voters will probably be turned off , I know I will be.

Edwards/Obama will probably prefer not to have a formal endorsement from the bloggers in Daily Kos specifically.

If I was Obama/Edwards I won't want a formal endorsement from Markos.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:22:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

the problem with your post, if you dont get it, is that you are labeling a broad swath of very different peo as if they are one. there is more groupthink here than at daily kos if for no other reason than the shear diversity of diaries postd there.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Isn't that the whole entire idea behind this diary , " if you don't get it " , the whole entire swath of the established bloggers are anti Hillary but are somehow reluctant to endorse Edwards/Obama for whatever reason . Funny you don't see that . You probably should have the same problem you write about with the diary , but I guess since it supports your candidate you don't see it.

Get off the fence all of you and endorse Obama/Edwards to stop Hillary. If you all don't endorse Edwards , who is the " progressive " Candidate you are electing Hillary .

That aside , even if we move along with that premise , what in the world will Edwards get from an endorsement from Front pagers on Daily Kos , they are probably supporting him overtly and covertly and most people on that site already have chosen Edwards and too a lesser extent Obama  and they are both bot catching up with Hillary. I will suggest that their problem is that they are not extending their base beyond the so called " Net Roots " which they already have the preponderence and a formal endorsement from Markos especially or any of the Big Bloggers for that matter doesn't change any dynamic .It might actually have the opposite effect , the more they are seen been pushed by bloggers the further it makes Hillary Clinton look better to moderates and Independence.
Hence if I was Obama/Edwards I won't be craving for an endorsement from Markos or any of the front pagers or any endorsements from top bloggers for that matter , I'll rather they continue the support the way it is rather than making it formal.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

not its not. but i can see how through your paraonia it maybe. for the record, while you and the other clintonite were bitching the other day about the anti clinton diary, i went to check. there was also a pro clinton diary up as well saying that they would vote for her if she is the nominee. but then that just goes to prove people see what they want to see.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 6)

David, I'm glad you've raised this question as I've been wondering myself. Here's some of my thoughts:

  • because they want to be treated as "journalists": hmm, bloggers by virtue of how they present their info/opinions are more akin to editorialists than reporters. they rarely attempt to present themselves as neutral on most issues or races other than the current Democratic presidential primary race.
  • because they have friends at the different campaigns: they've been having friendly (and sometimes not so friendly) disagreements for a long time on many different issues; the friendships will survive.
  • because they want to maintain their access to the different campaigns: um, back to the "not reporters" thing, plus as long as they are being fair, why wouldn't campaigns continue to provide information? so maybe a blogger who's endorsed Clinton won't get a scoop on an Obama announcement, but I don't read a Kos or Armstrong post because it's a scoop. I read it because of a different insight or analysis, and I suspect others do as well.

For me, I respect someone who takes the measure of the different candidates and reaches a decision on who to support more than I do someone who feigns neutrality on candidates yet criticizes other politicians for not taking stands.  So, HT to BTD, The General, and any other "A-list" bloggers who stand up for what they believe by endorsing a candidate.


by edgery on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:49:54 PM EST

On the journalist note (2.00 / 4)

I think a lot of the journalistic self-importance of the MSM, especially the focus on the horserace stuff, has rubbed off some. You even see it in many of the blogs where articles often are merely mirrors of MSM articles.

I also think Dean's failure even though he was the blogoshphere favorite has made many bloggers a bit hesitant to jump in with both feet. Maybe they want a sure thing.

The problem with that is the watching and waiting game doesn't help anyone really except the frontrunner. The longer you wait, the less the choice has of making any difference on the outcome.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On the journalist note (none / 0)

One thing that has also become apparent is that the blogs cannot fund a presidential campaign. They basically did with Dean. But the donation limits are too high so the candidates can just go around and collect $2300 dollar checks from a few thousand people rather than $50 contributions from a million people.

Like it or not, the reason Dean came out of nowhere was because in 2004 the fundraising numbers that candidates could expect to get were still within the range of what a purely grassroots campaign could match. That is clearly not the case this time. If individual limits were say $500, then small internet contributions would still have a major impact on campaigns because the max that any candidate would get in a quarter would probably be around $10-12 million.

But that's not possible this time around so in this crucial expectations phase of the campaign the grassroots' influence has waned.  


by adamterando on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 04:43:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

It could be that Democrats were not as fond of Edwards Nader-esque attack on the Democratic Party and a popular Democratic President as you were.

I have been voting for Democratic candidates since George McGovern. I was offended by Edwards' speech.

The Democrats have the opportunity to seize the moment and become the majority party. Everyone in the country knows that the Republicans have screwed up Washington. The tide is swinging hard to the Democrats after 40 years of movement towards Republicans. So what does Edwards do? Blame Democrats for the Republican screw ups. It makes no sense. It's self-defeating.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:51:33 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 3)

Stop being such a shill.  Edwards is not Nader-esque.  He constantly affirms the values of the Democratic Party and when it has been successful.  He always refers to the Democratic Party in this way: "my party, the Democratic party has stood for....".  He has pride in Democratic values.  However he has no problem in identifying the fact that in going more centrist some Democrats have left behind the values of the Democratic party as he has known it.  

Exchanging their insiders for our insiders will not change things.  I agree whole-heartedly.  And some of our insiders don't want to hear the truth.  He is speaking up on behalf of the rank and file of the Democratic party.  The Democratic insiders would just like us to volunteer for their election and then remain quiet while they deal with important people.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

There are more troops in Iraq now than ever before, under our Democratic congress.

Most of our Democratic Party senators and representatives voted for the war, voted to continue funding the war, voted for the PATRIOT act, voted to give Bush additional wiretapping power under FISA, and more.

The Democratic Party does not stand up for liberal and progressive values. It's time that someone in the party says it loudly. Otherwise it will never change.


by Pope Jeremy on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:56:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The interesting thing to me is that (2.00 / 6)

the most prominent bloggers that haven't endorsed don't seem to realize that by not choosing a candidate they are in actuality choosing Hillary. Thats the reality of it because she is the frontrunner. Not making a choice IS making a choice.

Its not enough just to sit on the sidelines and play the horserace, at least it shouldn't be. Progressive blogs are always calling for democrats to stand up, to make difficult sometimes unpopular choices, to stand against the grain when need be, yet these same progressive bloggers aren't doing this on the presidential level. Its pretty disheartening.

At some point people on the sidelines are going to have to come off the sidelines and take a stand to actually impact the race. There seems to be a lot of complacency, combined with an attitude by some that there isn't much difference between the candidates. Which I'm sure the Clinton campaign loves to see since its one of their campaign's chief talking points. Blogs seem to buy into that just like the MSM does.

Many, like Taylor Marsh for example, have even said they won't endorse during the primary. Imo, that is a copout. If you don't stand up clearly for what you want, I don't think you have much right to complain after.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:52:48 PM EST

Re: The interesting thing to me is that (2.00 / 2)

I think like the unions they are perfectly aware that by not endorsing it helps Clinton. Their concern, like the unions, is what happens if they endorse, and she becomes President.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The interesting thing to me is that (2.00 / 2)

What do they have to really fear?  If they endorse Edwards they may help a very pro-union candidate get the nomination.  Even if he loses the nomination, Clinton still needs them for the general and for re-election.  She cannot abandon them.  

There is no downside for an endorsement whereas there is an upside.  I just don't get the timidity and the expected payback.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The interesting thing to me is that (2.00 / 1)

You are trying to make logical sense of fear. It's interesting, but the reality is that the people most likely to afraid are often the smartest. Clinton is known for her willingness to punish people who don't support her. It's a great trait in a leader, but also a bad one if she's not your best choice of leadership.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

great trait? (none / 0)

Clinton is known for her willingness to punish people who don't support her. It's a great trait in a leader...

Are you kidding!? It's a great trait for a dictator who has to maintain control through fear. Bush/Rove where masters of that leadership technique. I don't think Clinton would appreciate the comparison.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:45:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great trait? (none / 0)

I believe in the carrot and stick approach to politics. It's not per se a bad trait.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great trait? (none / 0)

this is a really depressing way to look at things...


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great trait? (2.00 / 1)

yeah but its the real world. somes you got to use the stick and somes the carrot to lead. they aren't bad traits per se. its how they are used thats the question.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yep - see a lot of similarities (2.00 / 2)

but its a vicious circle of logic isn't it? Playing it safe seems to be the in thing now. They want boldness and someone to stand up and fight (they = blogs and unions), but aren't willing to stand up and fight themselves. Her high national polls and the inevitably meme that her campaign is based on make some reluctant to stand openly against her in support of another candidate.

Hopefully we'll see some changes in that post labor day.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep - see a lot of similarities (2.00 / 1)

Boldness is not what the left does in the U.S. In fact, we are quite predictable in our response. At base, no one believes the American public is progressive. It's the kind of thing where even if it's proven that they are, it still won't be believed because we have spent t he last 30 years under the Reagan revolution. It's hard to overcome a narrative in your head that you view as fact although its just a made up story. Facts and strategy and all of that may logically convince you, but emotionally? not so much or easy to do that. clinton's strategy trades on this sort of intertia.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So true (2.00 / 5)

especially your point about progressive bloggers calling on Democrats to stnad up.

And as for not endorsing during the primary, all I can say is that an endorsement afterward is pretty much useless.  We're all work to ensure a Republican doesn't take the White House again.

And once a candidate has the primary race locked up, exactly what kind of influence will the blogs have on the Democratic candidate's positions?  Zippo, nada, zilch.  No one is going to call for a boycott of the Democrat if he/she doesn't like the candidate's positions, at least no one who expects to remain even marginally credible.

So basically, not taking a stand now is the same as saying "any Democrat is fine, no distinctions here (i.e., go Hillary!)," and "oh by the way, I don't do presidential politics anymore."


by edgery on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Zippo, nada, zilch (2.00 / 3)

exactly.

And its ironic to me that we constantly see posts (by Kos for example) on how we should support Candidate X in State X because he's the most progressive democrat running, and yet when it comes to the presidency, arguably the most important race in the country coming up, all we get is horserace and more horserace and sideline quarterbacking.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or another way of saying (none / 0)

if you aren't going to have progessive candidates' backs you certainly aren't encouraging them to have yours.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The interesting thing to me is that (none / 0)

Taylor Marsh, if she were to choose, would  select Clinton (IMHO.)  I have seen frontpagers write posts that appear that they are quite fond of Clinton, have warmed up to her a lot. I remember the brouhaha caused by Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller, and also Jerome Armstrong, Todd Beeton, with very complimentary posts, all of them accused of actually being in Clinton's employ by a few angered souls.   Perhaps this issue is not quite as black and white as some here believe?  Maybe there is not this gigantic movement afoot to stop Hillary Clinton in her tracks, just maybe many of the bloggers have been quite impressed by her, enough so that they decided to stay somewhat neutral.    I realize I will get flamed for this viewpoint, but I think that Clinton-hate in the blogosphere (and the rallying around effect that would engender) is highly overstated.  


by georgep on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Progressive blogs are always calling for democrats to stand up, to make difficult sometimes unpopular choices

Why would you want to make unpopular choices when your party is poised to wipe out 40 years of Republican control and take back the White House with the opportunity to become the majority party again in the United States?


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:56:37 PM EST

Why would you want a president (2.00 / 1)

who is going to play it safe with small incremental changes, when you can have one that will shift the entire landscape with fresh policies, a new name, and who could possibly turn America Blue?


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would you want a president (none / 0)

Because Hillary Clinton has ovaries, and that's really all hwc is concerned about.

That's one of those people who think "Democrat = Democrat."

When you consider all Democrats to be or SHOULD BE alike, then you don't see a problem with basing your support on what's between a candidate's legs instead of what's between their ears.


by OE on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I think that most of them are like Stoller.

They like edwards the best, but only on an intellectual level towards his policies.  They have other problems with him.


by sterra on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:02:47 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 4)

Agree! And I've been wondering this very thing now since I started following closely all of JRE's speeches. What more do progressives want? I've been wondering about the progressive magazines, since John has been sounding more like Jim Hightower and Molly Ivins, less like any candidate choice we've ever been handed. To think! Happy to vote our hearts and minds and beliefs! I've waited my whole political life for a progressive populist (see the magazine of the same name if you are uncertain what that is), to support and do I ever support John Edwards - and Elizabeth Edwards!

So what are you waiting for, blogs? You can't say he's not progressive enough; you have to admit he leads and sticks his neck out. Something else you can say: ordinary people get him, like him and will go to the mat for him. He speaks our language. What's wrong with bloggers? Fear. "What's wrong with America?" Fear. What's wrong with the US Congress? Fear. SICKO: The difference is our governement is afraid of us - Americans are afraid of their government.

John Edwards is up there in the lead position, ahead of the fearful and the fearmongering when he says to give up fear, be bold, do it like this. Republicans are afraid of the terrorists and Democrats are afraid of the neocon government. Same fear - fear of losing, either your life or your democracy.

I think Big Blogs and Progressive magazines and writers fail to endorse (and celebrate) because it is scary to see someone out there leading as if he had no fear. Follow someone without fear- how far? Over the cliff? What's your cliff? Your life? Your democracy?

Why isn't Edwards intimidated by the relentless lousy press? Why so relaxed, confident, unbowed by sneers and lies? My view is that John and Elizabeth are living in their own time, made by a death sentence for Elizabeth. This campaign is the life they have chosen - to speak out their truth each day that is left, to make each day a more perfect union, for themselves and for our democracy. They show valor and ordinary people get it.


by mrobinsong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:03:41 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

that's a really rousing endorsement.  but it got me thinking...you ask what more could people want from edwards.  i agree that his policies are great, but am i the only one who just can't quite bring myself to trust him?  he just seems a little too slick.  he changes just a little too easily.  it's hard for me to put my faith in someone if i'm not sure he won't drop me when it's no longer convenient for him.


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

My point. Operative word: fear.


by mrobinsong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

"slick" where have I heard that before? next up fibber and flip floppery


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

Well, there was only one way I could vote in your poll, since I'm a blogger and I have endorsed Edwards.  Of course, I'm not a nationally known blogger.


by sirius on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:06:16 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

ah, but you're known to some of us.

I only think that David is talking about those 'very well-known' national bloggers.  Perhaps the focus needs to shift to the regional blogs where, except for a very few, tend to stay out of Presidential politics and are more owner-driven.


by edgery on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 4)

David, thanks so much for this posting.   I have had a similar rumbling in my stomach that the lack of explicit and quantifiable support for Edwards from the "sphere" isn't sitting quite right.

What has gotten me is less about the endorsement side.   It is about the 'roots' side of the netroots.   Edwards' main challenge right now is not the message, electability, policy, any of that stuff.  It is the money to compete with the juggernauts of the two establishment candidates (I have total respect for their fundraising, especially Obama, but it is so much a factor of the national buzz).

Maybe this is happening and we don't have a good way to quantify it beyond ACT Blue, but it does not seem as though there is a very organized fundraising effort coming for the netroots for Edwards.

Lots of writing and posting, but less of it explicity driven to organizing a financial base that is rooted in the netroots.

I think you (David) are one of the people to lead that effort along with others.

Maybe this is where the endorsement piece comes in.  Maybe it takes Kos, Jerome, Stoller and Bowers to headline such an effort and get everyone to follow.  I hope not as I don't think that reflects the true nature of the netroots, but I would be totally comfortable with that if it got the job done.  

There really should be a massive call to action for the netroots to put its small and powerful amount of money where its mouth is and help put Edwards in the Whitehouse.

Thanks again for the post.  Go John (I just watched the health cre video from NH over on Armbinder and am feeling particularly impassioned).


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:07:05 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

Well said--good points.

You point too another irony: the roots go to great lenghts to help out progressives at the Congressional level, like Darcy Burner, yet is generally remaining neutral on the most important race in the land. I suppose some would answer that Clinton is a good alternative, not a Blue Dog nor a Bush dog, but she's pretty clearly a corporatist Dem, and it'd be nice if bloggers came out and supported and helped to raise money for the people's candidate.

I fear that Daou's attempt to mollify the sphere has worked.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

i think it's pretty unfair to call obama an "establishment candidate."  in fact, i think a good deal of his fundraising prowess comes from the fact that people view him as anything but...


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

First: has the thought occurred to you that perhaps others who are not out-and-out Edwards supporters maybe didn't find this to be the "speech of everyone's life"?  That some of us, even those who care about reform, laugh at that notion?

Anyways, on this thought

Not every pol could credibly deliver that speech. Few could. Only one top-tier contender could.

You lose credibility.  This comes off as partisan (for your candidate) cheer-leading.  Not only is there another candidate who has been giving the same thrust of being skeptical of the Dem party insiders, this other candidate actually has a record of taking on said insiders and passing legislation that neuters said insiders.  His record on the issue is spotless.  

Basically, Edwards is trying to co-opt Obama's reformer/procedural message here.  Up to this point in the campaign, Edwards, who doesn't have a strong populist record, has instead given weight to his campaign pitch by rolling out very detailed, very good policies.  On this subject, he has not.  He's been shamefully light.  The "Brownie's law" is pretty much credentialism, which is not what we need.  So we have no record, little policy, and what policy has been proposed is bad law.

Maybe that's why nobody is getting excited about it.  Because its weak.  Edwards is not going to win an argument with Obama about good governance reform, be it ethics reform in general, lobbyist reform, transparency in government, etc etc.   And he's certainly not going to win that argument by simply yelling his message really loudly and hoping nobody notices how light his policies actually are on the issues.


by mopper8 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:09:08 PM EST

The diarist is actually bringing up (2.00 / 2)

an issue that goes beyond Edwards. Put your partisan stuff aside for a bit and think of the bigger picture, this affects Obama as well.


by okamichan13 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The diarist is actually bringing up (2.00 / 1)

It has nothing to do with my partisan preference for Obama, though I do not deny such a preference.

I'm curious, though, as to what bigger issues I should be addressing.  Blog endorsements?  I don't really care about them: I think the type of people who read leftist blogs are not the type of people to be strongly swayed by their endorsements, on the whole.  Indeed, it seems to me people come to leftist blogs to learn about the facts of issues so as to make their own judgments, or accumulate a whole host of different opinions on issues in an effort to find which ones they find most persuasive.  

So I don't see the real point of it.  Bloggers seem more than happy to weigh in on: debate performances, overall campaign pitches, statements and speeches made to reporters and at rallies, policies offered, endorsements gathered, etc etc.  This seems to me precisely what people who go to the lefty blogs want from their bloggers.  

As for taking on the establishment, if that's the "bigger issue", well, I think I'm giving it the attention it deserves (and the attention, unfortunately, Edwards himself has not given it).  Good governance is actually my #1 domestic issue, and its about on-par with me with general foreign policy as the things I care about in this election.  Which is precisely why I was unimpressed with Edwards speech.  As I said, Edwards has little record on this issue to stand on, so if he wants to convince me, he should be rolling out ambitious policies on the subject.  Instead, so far, he seems content to simply state his opposition to insider politics VERY LOUDLY and VERY ANGRILY, as if yelling it will somehow give it more force.  Before he convinces me he's passionate it about the matter, he needs to convince me he's serious about the matter, and that means I need a little more than "Brownie's Law" from him.

Which is precisely why his speech was somewhat underwhelming for me.  It seems to be at its base about using fiery rhetoric to supplant actual policy substance on the issue of good governance.  Which is an unfortunate departure for Edwards, who'd gained a lot of cred with me with his consistent policy heft on the issues he campaigned on.  

So...I addressed why I thought the speech (and Edwards' pitch in general) are not such great shakes that the 'sphere out to be tripping all over itself to endorse him, and now I've reiterated that and explained why I don't think it even matters anyway.  

Dig?


by mopper8 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The diarist is actually bringing up (none / 0)

Also, I want to point out that I'm not bringing up Obama out of nowhere he.  Edwards is bringing Obama up.  He's specifically trying to co-opt Obama's message.  Its a not-so-subtle broadside.

Obama: "Lobbyists can have a seat at the table, they just can't buy all the seats"

Edwards: "If you give lobbyists a seat at the table, they'll eat all the food"

He's trying to hit Obama on this issue.  That's the point.  If you're missing that, well, I'm sorry, but it's a pretty straightforward campaign tactic, and deserves to be discussed as such.  Edwards is inviting comparisons with his rival on this issue, and I'm more than happy to oblige.


by mopper8 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One explanation (2.00 / 2)

My analysis of Edwards's speech, originally posted at Politico/Ben Smith and Election Central/TPM:

What's interesting here is that Edwards's messaging actually helps Obama.

Edwards says: "We cannot replace a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats,
just swapping the Washington insiders of one party for the Washington insiders of the other."

Obama says: "It's not enough just to change parties. We've got to change the politics."

The "downbeats" of these messages are quite similar, but the "upshots" are quite different.

Edwards uses his opening hook to talk about "cleaning up Washington" and taking on the establishment.

Obama uses his to call for "common sense" over "conventional thinking."

The problem for Edwards is that Obama, too, is hitting "anti-establishment" and "anti-lobbyist" notes -- but
is hitting them in a more savvy way.

Here's a theory:

Obama is using anti-establishment and anti-lobbyist as a negative -- but ultimately only supporting -- version
of the more positive theme of "commonsense v. conventional."

Because Obama is using these negative and positive versions in tandem, voters hear the adversarial undertone of
the negative version whenever he utters the positive. The fact that the negative undertone registers helps Obama.
But the fact that it registers as adversarial, not combative, helps him more.

Indeed, Obama frames even his negative version in terms of "starving the influence" of the establishment and lobbyists --
which looks presidential -- rather than in terms of Edwards's "taking them on," which looks angry and desperate and small,
by comparision.

But while voters don't generally elect the angry candidate, they do like a fighter. What happens, though, is that when Edwards
hammers the establishment and lobbyists, it is the (negative) "angry revolutionary" associations that stick to him, while it is the
(positive) "fighter/reformer" associations of Edwards's rhetoric that stick to Obama.

Why? Because (1) voters generally link both Edwards and Obama to anti-"Washington" critiques but because (2) Obama doesn't
adopt Edwards's combative tone.

Indeed, there is a sense in which the harder -- and more angrily -- Edwards hammers on these critiques that both he and Obama
are making, the freer Obama is to focus on selling his more appealing approach to the same problem.

Moreover, while undertones of Edwards's "revolutionary" message are embedded in Obama's more pragmatic and reform-minded
politics, the reverse is not true.

The net effect is that when voters focus exclusively on Edwards's rhetoric, what they hear are the rumblings of another perpetual
catfight by a different name. Instead of Democrats v. Republicans, it's the people v. the establishment in mutual headlock. So while
Edwards says "We cannot replace a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats, just swapping the Washington
insiders of one party for the Washington insiders of the other," he is doing a swap of his own, replacing one us/them set for another
and thus preserving the same basic political dynamic that has kept the country marking time for the last three decades.

When voters focus exclusively on Obama's rhetoric, on the other hand, they are much more likely to hear "getting things done."

And at the end of the day, most of the electorate is concerned less with whether the Oval Office is occupied by a Democrat
or a Republican than with whether the President can actually get things done in a way that advances American values.

Otherwise, nobody would write a single word about Mike Bloomberg.


by horizonr on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:16:12 PM EST

Re: One explanation (none / 0)

extremely perceptive...


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Populism vs. Innovation (none / 0)

I'd like to know what people think about this:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?fi le=/chronicle/archive/1998/01/31/MN72970 .DTL

I'd also like to know what John Edwards thinks about this.  Does he think Al Gore was being used as a Patsy by British Petroleum.

More info:  Two years into the Bush Administration, BP pulled the plug on this project because the Solar Panels themselves were not producing as projected.  But I think it's that and the fact that our Government also lost interest in such programs.

Now.  There is an assumption one can make about Edwards that when he says "We can not replace Corporate Republicans with Corporate Democrats" he is not ruling out alliances between, well, Corporations and Democrats.

But it's not getting through the noise.

I'm just saying that when I hear his rhetoric on the issue I do get the distinct impression that Edwards has no longer found a distinction between Corporate Republicans and Corporate Democrats relevant.

And.  To me it is relevant.


by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:16:48 PM EST

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (none / 0)

Edwards pitch is essentially, "yeah, our guys are corrupt, but so are your guys".

That pitch makes no political sense after eight years of Republican corruption. That's the kind of pitch you make when your own party has been nailed with a series of scandals and you want to say, "Yeah, I know, we are bunch of scoundrels, but the other guys are just as bad...". It's the pitch the Republicans have to make in 2008.

It makes no sense whatsoever when it is the OTHER party that is being rocked by corruption and cronyism and incompetence. When your own party enjoys polling support it hasn't seen in decades, coming off major gains in the mid-terms and riding a wave of popularity into the Presidential cycle.

What would Edwards and Obama want to swiftboat their own party by pushing the notion that Democrats are "just as corrupt" as Republicans? They are shooting the Democratic Party in the foot.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a Side Concern for Me (none / 0)

But that's a very valid concern, to be sure.

Edwards is trying to convince people he's the guy who will crack down on an energy company to make sure they will stop dumping pollution into Lake Michigan.

Which is a big piece of the puzzle.

He's missing the other piece of the puzzle.


by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 1)

his pitch is that we have to be better than them. its on the cusp of an actual progressive vision of america rather than a reaction to politics as the GOP has done it.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 2)

Exactly.  The pitch isn't "we're corrupt, but they are too", the pitch is: "everyone is corrupt, but by electing me, we as a party are committing to ending that corruption"

And its not like there isn't plenty of evidence that there is corruption in the Dem party as well.  I'm very pleased Edwards is adopting this rhetoric, but I won't be impressed until he puts some meat on those bones.


by mopper8 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (none / 0)

The voters didn't seem to believe that Democrats were corrupt when they voted out corrupt Republicans and replaced them with Democrats across the country in 2006.

Based on all available polling, the voters appear quite happy to replace more corrupt Republicans with Democrats in 2008.

Yet, Obama and Edwards are running around the country trying to convince the voters that Democrats are just as corrupt as Republicans.

It's one of the most ridiculous political strategies I've ever seen. Not to mention the attacks on an incredibly popular Democratic President who would be a huge asset to the Party in the general election. It's like Republicans trashing Ronald Reagan.

But, there ya go. Just like the Democrats to pull defeat from the jaws of victory once again with a self-deating political stance.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 1)

All available polling also shows voters very unhappy with Congress, both Dems and Repubs alike.

What's more, you seem to be completely missing the point, which is that Edwards and Obama are trying to appeal to people who are have interests bigger than simply settling the score with Republicans.  This isn't just about replacing Republicans in government.

Some of us want to, you know, make Washington an inhospitable environment for all corruption.

Some of us want to effect social change.

Some of us want to build social institutions (like universal healthcare) and understand how entrenched interests in both parties represent major roadblocks to those types of changes.

In short, for some of us, this election is about more than cheerleading one party to victory over the other.

Indeed, considering, for example, a pork-loving Democrat (Byrd) tried to kill Obama's database of federal spending legislation, I think that group of us is actually engaging in the reality of Democratic politics.  

Some of us want more than the lesser of two evils.


by mopper8 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (none / 0)

All available polling also shows voters very unhappy with Congress, both Dems and Repubs alike.

I see that the right wing noise machine has snagged you hook, line, and sinker.

Half the people (Republicans) hate Congress because it's controlled by Democrats. Most of the Democrats are mad at Congress because they haven't been able to force Bush out of Iraq.

Those two motivations are very different.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 1)

shor term think: they want to replace the corrupt GOP. So it doesn't matter with whom.

long term think: if we replace them with a choice that they really like they may come back for more in future elections.

basis of argument: the GOP came into power in 1994. They lost power in 2006.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (none / 0)

The anti-corruption guns should be aimed at the party of Duke Cunningham, Ted Stevens, and Halliburton. For Democrats to turn those guns on the Democratic Party is doing the Republicans dirty-work for them. It's politically suicidal.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 1)

the anti corruption guns should be pointed where there is corruption or else it's not anti corruption- it's politics. and in which case you win a clinton presidency, but little else for the party. the mantra is for party and coutnry, not for clinton.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Populism vs. Innovation (2.00 / 2)

I don't understand how you have this impression.

I do get the distinct impression that Edwards has no longer found a distinction between Corporate Republicans and Corporate Democrats relevant.

Edwards has stood on the stage and declared that everyone of the Democrats would be way better than any of the Republicans.  However he does say that there are differences between the Democratic candidates and whether they will bring the big bold change needed.  I have always seen him respectful of his competitors, but he does not back away from telling the truth.  In particular he feels that too close a connection with the corporate elites tends to corrupt the process of government.  And that is what I have seen with the blue dogs and those that vote with the Republicans.

Yes there is a distinction, but it still will not make a huge difference to many people if we "exchange out insiders for their insiders".  So I will support any Democrat over any Republican for the general election, but I feel that Edwards is the best for the country right now.  I actually like Hillary but I think she is a better senator than she would be a president.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Solar energy tax credits (none / 0)


BP executives, in turn, welcomed the administration's plan for a solar energy tax credit of up to $2,000, which is equal to 15 percent of the cost of a typical rooftop solar system. The credit, $1,000 for water heating systems and $2,000 for photovoltaic panels, would apply to systems installed starting next year.

Tax credit so incentivize solarizing sounds like a good idea. What's your problem with that? Why are you projecting as if Gore was doing something bad?

I oppose Edwards smearing the Democratic party for selfish gain, but I do not approve of your flawed methods in trying to counter it.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards isn't (2.00 / 1)

smearing the party, he's helping it by opposing corporatist Dems and their apologists, of which you are, to my surprise, one.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards isn't (none / 0)

Edwards isn't smearing the party

No, he is doing that by hiding behind a label.

I have no problem when he says: I am not taking lobbyist money, Obama isn't doing so for this election, but Hillary is and has refused to disavow and disconnect with lobbyists.

Then the Hillary camp would look into his full range of fund raising over the years.

By legitimizing the phrase "Corporate Democrat," he is slamming the party at large. While his own record is centrist and his votes such as China MFN can be construed as "Corporatist" (be honest and admit that that is the case).

of which you are, to my surprise, one.

I think you're good a kid (well, kid of about the same age as mine), David :) But you aren't honest when it comes to the 2008 race. You 've used the "half full for my candidate, half empty for his opponent" spin tactic way too many times for me to even count (esp. when comparing Obama and Edwards.) I don't understand how your conscience allows you to do that.

I try to lay out as many facts as I can find and then, based on those, try to form and present as balanced and consistent set of views as humanly possible.

Honesty is a foundational progressive value.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 05:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You Still Think (2.00 / 1)

I'm Criticizing Gore here.  That is so sad!

I am explaining how Gore is better than Edwards.

I am explaining how Gore is better than Edwards.

.

Got it!!!!

Ok.  One more time!

I am explaining how Gore is better than Edwards.

I am describing a skill that Gore has (working with Corporations) that Edwards does not have.

Can you please reply to this and let me know you understand that while you might disagree with my opinion of Edwards, you at least do understand that what I have posted about Gore above is intended to be Highly Complimentary Indeed!?

At least as far as Gore is concerned.

Thanks!!!


by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You Still Think (none / 0)

If you had explained what Gore was trying to get accomplished better than saying "Does he think Al Gore was being used as a Patsy by British Petroleum", eg, as I said, Gore was working to incentivize solarizing with tax credits to individuals, then I would not object the point you want to make here at all.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Will Not Assume Such Obvious Things (2.00 / 2)

to be so Self-Evident in the Future.


by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question Edwards (none / 0)

and Mizner etal to show the record to even logically justify Edwards' smearing of the Democratic party with the "Corporatist Democrat" label.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

As the presidential debates heat up and tensions increase, the candidates need to be reminded of the critical issues that still trouble our society today.  Issue such as global poverty needs to be address by our candidates to each other and to the general public. As one of the nations that has pledge to fulfill the goals of Millennium Development Project, whose goal is the elimination of world hunger and poverty, the Bush Administration has not shown any substantial action to bring this fundamental problem to a stop.  According to the Borgen Project, dedicated to fighting and ending Poverty around the world, only $19 billion dollars are needed annually to stop world wide poverty, hunger and malnutrition.  However, more than $340 billion dollars has been poured into this "war on terror."  And each year, our country has a military budge of $522 billion dollars.  It's time for a new leader who will be addressing an issue that affects 1.2 billion people everyday worldwide.


by Mstessyrue on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:22:02 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

you know, actually, one of the only areas that the Bush administration has effectively improved funding from the Clinton years is in international anti-poverty spending.  i'm not saying that the industrialized world is doing nearly enough, but check out the facts...


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

I honestly don't what's holding them up after that knockout of a speech.  Honestly could the netroots ask for more than what Edwards just gave, and why are Chris Bowers, and Stoller, both staunch critics of the antilabor stances of the DLC, more interested in proving Clinton electable, than in finding and alternative to her corporatism.

I was very optimistic about openleft until it turned into horse race site.  That is what we criticise the mainstream pundits over.


Dameocrat Blog also Stray Roots Messageboard
by Dameocrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:43:24 PM EST

The blogosphere has split loyalties for 2008... (2.00 / 1)

The blogosphere hasn't endorsed because the candidates are better, but imperfect.  In 2004, Dean was the only choice for those who really wanted to change the Democratic Party.  Most bloggers and blog-readers favored him, and therefore endorsements were easier.  The other major candidates either voted for the Iraq war or were running vanity campaigns.  

Now, there are several good candidates.  I currently favor Obama, but I think that both Edwards and Richardson are solid candidates.  I'm also inclined to vote against Hillary when I get the chance.  I also wish that either Gore or Feingold were running.  I think that many other bloggers and blog readers feel similarly, which is why you're not seeing any endorsements.  People may prefer a candidate, but they either haven't made up their mind or prefer to stop Hillary.


by econlibVA on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 01:45:23 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Dave, why don't you crosspost this to kos and openleft?


Dameocrat Blog also Stray Roots Messageboard
by Dameocrat on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:17:31 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Yeah, I'll put it up on Kos at some point.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I wish you would also cross post some of the things you say on gay rights issue from your blog.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

It's amazing how often we are seeing comments on the blogs to the effect of, "I'm for Candidate X, but I also could live with Y or Z...."

We have plenty of talent in the Democratic field, and that's a fact worth celebrating.  The GOP is stuck in a miserable place with a choice between the least of their many evils.


by global yokel on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:40:15 PM EST

Re: Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

That's why every time there's a straw poll on dailykos I run one in parallel where peolpe can rate all the candidates individually on a —10 to 10 scale. It turns out most candidates get variously positive ratings, with interesting distributions that line up with the pick-your-favorite polls.

Here's the latest:
http://betterpolls.com/v/171?full=1


Start Running Better Polls
by bolson on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

  I believe Mr. Mizner has nailed it. The progressive community has yet to unite with one candidate leaving HRC with a huge advantage.
  Why has Edwards not openly received more support is stunning. He campaigns and fundraises on our issues. If he doesn't have our support, in a big way, we have little impact in national politics. The democratic party continues to be led by the DLC and we stand aside.
 
They feed they Lion and he comes.
by bmelz on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 02:58:52 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

It could be that Edwards is just not perceived as being as strong a candidate as others in the race. That hypothesis would certainly be suggested by his fundraising and poll numbers.

It could also be that Democrats are concerned that his wife's incurable cancer could take Edwards off the campaign trail in the middle of the fall 2008 election.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

super-low blow.  i can't imagine that anyone is factoring in elizabeth's cancer like that...


by bluedavid on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:49:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

How can you not factor it in?

I certainly don't want to find the Democrats blow a sure win in November 2008 because our candidate has to leave the campaign trail for a month leading up to the election.

I sure am going to factor in that Grandpa Fred has incurable non-Hodgkins lymphoma and would be maybe 50%/50% to live out his entire first term.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

your crassness increases. You don't want to factor in, but you use it anyhow. Cute.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I want the Democrats to win the Presidential election in 2008. Simple as that.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 11:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I think it is inappropriate to dismiss Edwards on the speculation of "non-issues". Is he the best progressive candidate or isn't he? Does he deserve more support?


They feed they Lion and he comes.
by bmelz on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 09:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

It seems that there are any number of strategies that a commentator could take at this point of the game.  Making a top three endorsement is not something that I would do. The American political dialog is bereft of diversity mostly because we are unwilling to think beyond the small box of our flawed two party system, but also because we are so consumed by politics of the pragmatic.  Only the top three are being considered by most bloggers mostly because others are not considered viable.

Later in the season the argument of viability becomes much more viable.  But at this point it seems a lot like a copout.  Have you noticed that most people speak about the wisdom and common sense of candidates like Gravel and Kucinich but they preface those comments with clauses like "Of course he's completely unelectable..."  and then they talk about something from the candidate that they totally agreed with.

If you don't make an endorsement at this early stage you are free to talk about an amalgamation of ideas and policies.  Buying into the whole package, especially a mainstream package, is very limiting.  

If you are going to make an endorsement this early, at least pick someone further back in the pack whose ideas are more likely to truly be progressive.  Everyone knows that eventually you will endorse one of the front-runners out of pragmatism, but for now you can be a part of expanding the dialog.  

It seems to me that this is the time in the campaign that we can support ideas.  Later we will need to support candidates. Don't miss the opportunity.  


by Hugh Stearns on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:09:25 PM EST

Shorter David Mizner (none / 0)

"Bloggers aren't outwardly supporting my pet candidate, ergo they must be compromised pro-conservatives!"

OR...

Speaking for myself, I see no reason to pledge support to a candidate. I like the main Dem candidates and think they'd all do a fine job. In the case of Sen. Edwards I think if you look at the substance of his positions versus the rhetoric historically he does not widely differ from Clinton and Obama. Which is okay with me, but let's not pretend otherwise. His recent populist speech was a kind of "gimme" speech for a guy in 3rd place nationally, and while I like him a lot I don't think he would have given it if he was leading in the polls. To applaud him for an unrisky manuever seems kind of silly.

Apparently stating a fact makes one a horserace journalist.

Oliver Willis


by owillis on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 03:13:57 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 7)

The Agonist is a-list and both myself and Stirling have praised Edwards and pointed out he is the best progressive choice (not the most progressive, but the most progressive who is in the running).

As for other blogs, I'm rather disappointed as well.  We're getting the candidate we asked for, begged for, and we're not supporting him.

Gonna get the candidate we deserve, then.


by Ian Welsh on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 04:51:02 PM EST

Thank you Ian. (2.00 / 2)

I will check out your site.  


by TomP on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

I'll check it out too.


by sirius on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

Ian, you wrote a great post on JRE's foreign policy speech a while back.

The whole a-list thing gets a little annoying, much the way "top-tier" does when discussing presidential candidates.

The truth is, I'm not familiar with all the big blogs, and there's probably no good way to measure influence.

But I think my general points still holds.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I am now a supporter of John Edwards, but it wasn't until after YearlyKos and meeting him in the breakout session and having the opportunity to ask him a question and really liking the answer that he gave to my question, and others, that I decided to financially support him.

Even though I am a supporter of Edwards I still don't feel the passion for him, or any candidate, that I did for Dean four years ago.  I think that it is this lack of passion that other bloggers are feeling as well and is what is preventing endorsements at this stage of the game.  I feel that part of the lack of passion is due to the large number of candidates and that a large number of those candidates are pretty good.

The only time I have seen passion in the campaign so far was when 1500 people came out to his event in Los Angeles after the Logo Debate and only a few hundred came out to Obama's event, which was happening across the street, but it still wasn't the zealous passion that I felt four years ago at a variety of Dean events.

-Derek


by derekcbart on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:05:16 PM EST

Well, that's a personal (none / 0)

thing, and maybe it's shared by many, I'm not sure. Certainly, the signature issue for the blogosphere is Iraq and none of the top-tier is pure on Iraq, but I sense quite a bit of passion for both Obama and Edwards.

In any case, it's worth putting the weight of your name and reputation behind the best candidate even if you're not feeling him or her, entirely.


by david mizner on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 09:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 2)

I've been fact to face and at a distance with Howard Dean countless times in Seattle, Iowa and lately Chicago. He has charisma. He lights up a room. He has the joy of life in his walk, smile, speech, and laughter. It's the "it" quality everyone has longed for in our candidates since President Kennedy graced the White House.

You'll be happy with John Edwards in the White House. His sincere caring for people is a real draw. I was at the breakout session too and was surprised at John's wit and how happy he seemed to be there with us progressives. He has been riding that wave since, I think. He gets energy as much from the people who respond to his speaking as much as he gives it. What I loved about Dean the candidate was how he grew with us as we grew into an online alternate political pro-democracy movement together - it went so fast! It was so exciting. I'll bet Edwards will bring him into the WH to serve the new people's govenment. I'll bet Edwards will grow in the job and bring the American people with him, and will be changed by our response to him as well.

This is what I want in a candidate. Someone who cares deeply about the people and a people's government. Someone who fights to win, loves winning, and wins.


by mrobinsong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 05:57:10 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

I think fear of losing - land repeating election night 2004 - still haunts progressives.

Waiting for the fear to go away and certainty to take its place.


by mrobinsong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:01:36 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

The solution to that is to back a winner.


by hwc on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's too soon (none / 0)

If a Major blog endorses a candidate now it becomes a minor blog - the "Edwards blog" or the "Hilary Blog" or whatever.  Too much time remains to counter the endorsement value and too much time OUT of the debate for blogs that depend on us coming to them to debate.

Much closer to the primaries, I suspect all the major blogs and bloggers will make endorsements in  a last minute effort to influence the outcome.


by David in Burbank on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:07:38 PM EST

When is it no longer 'early'? (none / 0)

A number of folks have commented that it's still early to talk about endorsing a candidate.  The first event is now litte more than 4 months away.  When is it no longer considered "early"?


by edgery on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:23:12 PM EST

Re: When is it no longer 'early'? (2.00 / 1)

a few weeks before hand because most voters traditionally dont make up their m inds until then, and even then really only after NH and Iowa to watch for any momentum, fall out etc. its nice to talk poll talk, but as fla dem pointed out in one thread, and i believe him b/c he is very good with polling history data, clinton, as in bill, didn't lead at all in the polls going into 1992 from 1991.


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

O.K. to endorse, but please, please (none / 0)

disclose any connection w/campaign.
by oculus on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:24:48 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

really nice thoughtful post


by bruh21 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:46:33 PM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (2.00 / 1)

My view is that the crucial time to raise money and wake up the political press, is now before the end of Q3. To that end:

John Edwards `08 campaign gets 93% of its funding from donations of $100 or less. Please contribute on MY PAGE
https:/johnedwards.com:443/action/contr ibute/mygrassroots?page_id=MjgxOTc


by mrobinsong on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:58:12 PM EST

Can a big blog endorse? (none / 0)

Over at DailyKos, which can't/shouldn't/won't endorse, there's a straw poll where users can state preference, and FYI John Edwards was way way ahead when I looked a half-hur ago. Now, is that manipulated?


by larryjthorson on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 07:41:07 PM EST

I disagree with your 'viable' filter (none / 0)

Edwards is the only viable candidate to offer both a plan for universal health insurance and a bold plan on climate change.

If we ignore the noise word 'viable' in that sentence, it's wrong.

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issue s/a-healthy-nation/
http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issue s/a-sustainable-future/

Come on, credit where credit due. Talk about the candidates with the good ideas, and maybe the'll become viable and we'll get the best candidates with the best ideas.


Start Running Better Polls
by bolson on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:13:24 AM EST

Re: What's the Sphere Waiting For? (none / 0)

I'm just seeing this post for the first time today, and I know since it's late that probably no one will see this comment, but I just have to say that I find this to be a highly dubious diary. Given the chance to post about Edwards on the front page of MyDD, you decide to write about how he doesn't get enough support from the blogs? Are you kidding me? Edwards enjoys widespread support across the blogosphere, more than any other Democrat, and yet you still complain about how only a few big-time bloggers have officially endorsed him? And last week, you wrote about how the media is unfair to Edwards. Is griping about not everyone loves your candidate as much as you do really the only thing you have to contribute to the front page?


"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
by This Machine Kills Fascists on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:43:06 AM EST


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