Obama and the Mideast: Pakistan

The lead is Obama 'would send troops into Pakistan'. Here's the quote that would substantiate the claim:

"It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qa'eda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." ...Mr Obama said that as commander in chief he would remove troops from Iraq and put them "on the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan."

So, there's a caveat of saying "if we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets," before it's OK to launch a unilateral pre-emptive strike/invasion-- it's the smarter-stick of Obama rather than the dumb-club of Bush. But this is basically a continuation of the Bush-Cheney doctrine of endorsing unilateral pre-emptive military attacks abroad, lighter perhaps, but certainly not the mentality that would pull us out of the mideast quagmire.

Here's Marc Ambinder's beltway take:

As President, Barack Obama would order attacks on terrorist camps in Pakistan even if its president, Gen. Pervais Musharraf, refused to give permission and would link American aid on Pakistan's progress in rooting out its terrorist havens.

That stance, one part of the multifacted counterrorrism strategy Obama unveils this morning, is tougher than the more considered approach of the Bush Administration, which has generally avoided antagonizing its ally in public.

...In endorsing pre-emptive, non-authorized terror raids in Pakistan, Obama is answering a threshold question about his willingness to risk international criticism in order to defend U.S. security interests.

I would agree that it it a threshold question: for those inside the beltway, like war proponants Pollock and O'Hanlon, who still think we can win in Iraq, it's a matter of showing you are not a weak Democrat; but for progressive Democrats that want a more peaceful leadership in the world shown by our next President, it fails the threshold of getting us out of picking fights in the mid-east, and discarding the Bush doctrine of unilateral pre-emptive attacks. If a unilateral pre-emptive strategy of attacking a 'target' is the doctrine, then why isn't Saudi Arabia, where Al Qaeda began and home to most of the 9/11 terrorists, also a potential target? The unilateral pre-emptive doctrine is profoundly un-american and anti-diplomatic in both its actions and ramifications.

The one thing this has done for Obama, is put him in the center, not Clinton, of the dialogue over what's going to happen next in the middle-east, and everyone is going to be reacting to his positions. For Richardson, who also didn't vote for the war, it's an opening to become the one candidate who did not vote for sending troops into Iraq and will pull completely out. For Edwards, it's an opportunity to further differentiate himself to the left of Obama. If this doesn't give the opening that Bill Richardson and John Edwards were looking for to criticize Obama directly, I don't know what does. Heck, even Clinton has the opportunity to move to the left of Obama over the issue of a the US launching a unilateral pre-emptive attack inside Pakistan. Because if Pakistan is game, why isn't Saudi Arabia as well?

Update [2007-8-1 13:8:22 by Jerome Armstrong]: I clarifiled the above mentioned "Bush doctrine" as that of a "unilateral pre-emptive attack" within another country, which Obama is clearly endorsing.

Update [2007-8-1 13:21:42 by Jerome Armstrong]: Clinton, on July 26th, Hillary against direct action, stated a non-unilateral position on Pakistan which differs from Obama's endorsement of unilateral pre-emptive attacks inside Pakistan:

WASHINGTON, July 26: US presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has said if America sends its troops to the tribal region, they should go with Pakistani troops and not on their own.

At a fund-raising dinner arranged for her by the National Association of Pakistani-Americans, she rejected the suggestion by some US officials and lawmakers that the United States should conduct unilateral military operations in the tribal region to destroy alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban safe havens.

Such a move, she said, would not produce the desired results and would create new problems. Only a combined effort by the Pakistani and US troops could destroy militant hideouts in the area, she added.

Update [2007-8-1 13:42:15 by Jerome Armstrong]:Obama's speech is online now, and contrary to the Obama fans that don't want to believe the MSM's quotes, his position is very clear:

The first step must be getting off the wrong battlefield in Iraq, and taking the fight to the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.... If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.
Basically, a continuation of the Bush doctrine of unilateral pre-emptive attacks in the mid-east, with Obama adding Pakistan to the list.



Display:


From the speech... (3.00 / 7)

As President, I would make the hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid to Pakistan conditional, and I would make our conditions clear: Pakistan must make substantial progress in closing down the training camps, evicting foreign fighters, and preventing the Taliban from using Pakistan as a staging area for attacks in Afghanistan.

I understand that President Musharraf has his own challenges. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will.

And Pakistan needs more than F-16s to combat extremism. As the Pakistani government increases investment in secular education to counter radical madrasas, my Administration will increase America's commitment. We must help Pakistan invest in the provinces along the Afghan border, so that the extremists' program of hate is met with one of hope. And we must not turn a blind eye to elections that are neither free nor fair -- our goal is not simply an ally in Pakistan, it is a democratic ally.

Beyond Pakistan, there is a core of terrorists -- probably in the tens of thousands -- who have made their choice to attack America. So the second step in my strategy will be to build our capacity and our partnerships to track down, capture or kill terrorists around the world, and to deny them the world's most dangerous weapons.

I will not hesitate to use military force to take out terrorists who pose a direct threat to America. This requires a broader set of capabilities, as outlined in the Army and Marine Corps's new counter-insurgency manual. I will ensure that our military becomes more stealth, agile, and lethal in its ability to capture or kill terrorists. We need to recruit, train, and equip our armed forces to better target terrorists, and to help foreign militaries to do the same. This must include a program to bolster our ability to speak different languages, understand different cultures, and coordinate complex missions with our civilian agencies.


by Obama08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:24:07 AM EST

Re: From the speech... (3.00 / 1)

If he doesnn't think our aid to Musharif isn't already conditionally then he truly is naieve and irresponsible.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:26:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From the speech... (3.00 / 3)

Apparently not conditional enough or else they wouldn't be allowing terrorist camps to grow there.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From the speech... (none / 0)

Al Qeada is calling on Muslims, ironically just in the last day, to overthrow Mussharaff.  It really isn't so simple as him not doing enough.


by bookgrl on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sticky situation (3.00 / 1)

Musharaff is a military dictator, but he's one of "our" military dictators in that we've been supportive of his regime and he's been cooperative to a small extent.

Though it's likely that Bin Laden and other high-level al-Qaeda members are holed up in Pakistan near the Afghan border, Musharaff has been unable to act because of the threat to his regime posed by religious extremists. His regime is also opposed by reformers, who are angry about his authoritarian abuses of power--most notably, he recently removed a court justice who was hearing charges related to the mass "disappearances" that have occurred under his regime.

It's hard to know if supporting Musharraf under the present conditions is the right thing to do. It smacks of our policy in Iran circa the overthrow of the Shah, but Pakistan is a nuclear state, and there's a very real possibility that Musharraf could be assasinated and the resulting power vacuum could lead to an even more repressive and anti-American regime.

Basically, our 20th century strategy of quasi-empire is once again coming back to kick us in the ass.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:07:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From the speech... (none / 0)

you do realize there has been multiple attempts against him since he's come into power


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:11:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From the speech... (none / 0)

Yes, but they have renewed their call.


by bookgrl on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From the speech... (none / 0)

like i say else where i dont think that responds to my point


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One Trick Pony (none / 0)

When your cred is based on good presentation and the single issue if being right in opposition to a war, it's grade school to undercut your sensibility by sayong "I can be an A-hole too."

Obama's proving to be soft and equivocal. He's squandered his standing. There's only 3 Dem/Indie Senators to the right of Hillary. Obama's trying to be the 4th.

It's dangerous and foolhardy. And silly, since we already do have Special Forces crossing borders.

Yesterday's poll showed Hillary was rated highest on healthcare by voters. It appears that failure and incompetence are still in vogue.

But we're not invading Pakistan. There's no oil there. This is all foolish bluster and snow.


by KevinHayden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 08:16:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Maybe the real reason is poll? LOL



Rasmussen daily tracking
Rasmussen daily tracking is out. I believe this is Obama's lowest number for a long time. Don't put too much stock in daily tracking though. We'll see what's going to happen for the entire week.

Hillary 42
Obama 21
Edwards 13




NBC/WSJ poll:
Clinton 43
Obama 22
Edwards 13



Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:26:03 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

To me the trap that Jerome's post illuminates is so obvious, yet Democrats keep falling in it. Maybe there is a reason Clinton tops the polls, she is the candidate usually most interested in looking tough as nails. It's our compulsive need to revert to tough talk on National Security to seem credible to middle America, whatever that is, so Democrats can be trusted as a Party with our nation's defense.

It seems that Republicans bait us into this trap every two years, like clock work. This year we have a chance to break free of that dynamic, but time is running out for our best chance to do so. The national Democrats who continually are least bellecose in their language are Dennis Kucinich and Wesley Clark. While some Americans might want reassuring that Dennis is up to the job of keeping America safe, Clark is a four star General for Christ's sake, which equals a "Get Out of Trap Free Card" for our Party if we could see our way to nominate HIM for President.

Clark is up for the job, but he's trying to line up the support he needs to enter the race and win. If that support is not forthcoming I fear it will our Party's loss, maybe literally. I have a current Diary up here about this, "The Case for Clark 08: Best if Used before 10/07". http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/1/8018/ 80075


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

curiously Clinton released a statement (3.00 / 2)

a few days ago saying no unilateral ground troops in Pakistant.

Obama has out hawked Hillary


"Lobbyists Represent 'Real' Americans" - Hillary Clinton
by TarHeel on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: curiously Clinton released a statement (3.00 / 1)

I did see that. Shrewd. Her strong image is well enough established by now that she can afford the occaisional well played dove card. No one can say that Hillary isn't a pro at politics, regardless of your opinion of what she really is in politics to accomplish.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A clarification (3.00 / 1)

By shrewd I did not mean Obama moving to out tough Hillary. I think she is being shrewd to mix it up, softening her muscular defense imaae a little here and there, which if nothing else keeps her opponents off guard.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Will General Clark (none / 0)

have a statement on this?

I do not think he would endorse Obama's bellicose rhetoric.


by TomP on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will General Clark (3.00 / 1)

Dunno

But he will be at Yearly Kos, maybe he'll get asked a question about that. I'm leaving for there now myself. Over and out!


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will General Clark (none / 0)

I will be there Friday.  Hope to meet you, Tom.


by TomP on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My only quibble (3.00 / 1)

with Jerome's post is that Pakistan isn't in the Middle East, but that minor point doesn't change the fact that, yes, Obama seems to want to perpetaute Bush's GWOT.


by david mizner on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Its sad when you have to threaten to kill people to get your poll numbers up.


by changehorses08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 3)

The public is for striking terrorist camps whereever they are...

Osama Bin Laden is the must wanted man in the world, and if you have good intelligence saying he's in this specific location inside Pakistan, i just find it hard to believe that the president of the U.S will not strike those camps.

Do you really believe the public will be against striking terrorist camps that could possibly eliminate Osama bin laden, in Pakistan?..I doubt that.

The American people aren't "anti-war"...They've shown that so many time....The public is "anti-dumb-war"....The war in Iraq was a dumb war...The war on terror is a war the public wants to fight.


by JaeHood on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:28:42 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I think the public is against rhetoric that makes him look more hawkish than the most hawkish adminstration ever.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Also, I'm very pro an aggressive foreign policy but this makes it seem like he's declaring Jihad on Pakistan, no pun intended.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 6)

That's bullshit. THat's not what he said at all.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I see that some partisans on Mydd are trying to distort Obama's words in intention.

Let's see if Hillary or Edwards are dumb enough to say NO to hitting terrorist training camps in Pakistan.

Security is still a huge issue in American politics, and soccer moms agrees with Obama that we have to take on the terrorists where ever they are.

We should rage all out war against terrorist..I'm pro war once it comes to fighting terrorist and Osama bin laden.


by JaeHood on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Enough of Your Bumper Sticker Wars (3.00 / 1)

If anyone is trying to distort things it is you. No one here has said there was anything wrong with going after the terrorists that attacked us. In fact I am fairly certain all Americans support that. But going all out against all terrorists is just a continuation of the Bush-Cheney policy. It isn't Bush-Cheney Lite. It is the Full Monty Bush-Cheney. Terrorists come in many shapes and flavors and not all of them are our enemies. This is not to say I support terrorism.

The War on Terror is a bunch of Bullshit designed to make Americans feel safer because our government is supposedly going after the folks that attacked us. It is used as an excuse to spy on American citizens, justify the torture of human beings, stifle political dissent and bully our allies into doing our will. Al Queda is a real terrorist threat that has proven they are our enemy. I fully support tracking them down and making them disappear. But you don't destabilize another country to do that. We already have one Iraq, we don't need an Iraq WITH Nukes and a populace that resents us even more than the Iraqis. Obama's plan is STUPID.


by DoIT on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"going all out ... (none / 0)

..against all terrorists" is the complete opposite of what Bush-Cheney have been doing. Haven't you been paying attention.
Saying you're fighting a War on Terror and actually doing it are two different things.

Obama is rejecting all the anti-democratic/dumb policies that Bush/Cheney have been perusing using the "War on Terror" as a front.
           Wire-Tapping
           Torture
           Guantanamo
           Iraq Occupation

Obama has stated his policies to actually fight terrorism. They sound very good to me.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

JaeHood

I didn't say attacking terrorist is bad I'm saying declaring publically that youll take unilateral action in another foreign country is bad. Especially when that other country is Pakistan.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:00:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not necessarily partisan (none / 0)

Some people might just be equal opportunity dumb.


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't about striking some camps in the open (3.00 / 3)

The situation is just not as easy as happening upon some intelligence and launching a surgical strike. There's a reason why they're all holed up in that mountainous region of Pakistan: Because it allows them to hide inside giant fucking mountains.

If Obama really wants to take out Bin Laden and destroy Al Qaeda in that region, he'll have to send ground troops into those mountains. Alot of ground troops. And it'll be messy, grueling work with a low chance of success, which is part of the reason I think the Bush Administration shifted their attention to what they thought was an easier war in Iraq.


Leftmost Bit
by Luigi Montanez on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

How many countries does he want us to be at war with at the same time?


by del on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I can name a lot of countries that actually support terrorists with arms and money unlike Pakistan,, when are we bombing them?

Iran, Syria, etc....


"Lobbyists Represent 'Real' Americans" - Hillary Clinton
by TarHeel on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

after he meets with their leaders.


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 2)

To me Edwards is looking better and better everyday. I was not even supporting him in the beginning, but he is always talking about progressive policies, but frequently gets negative press or no press at all.


by rakk12 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:29:42 AM EST

Seems dangerous (3.00 / 1)

This seems like a dangerous political gambit for Obama.

Voters who want strong foreign policy will never vote for Obama. It's clear Hillary is more "hawkish" than he is.

Progressive anti war voters who do support Obama will likely be turned off by his comments.

It'll be especially interesting to see what Right wing pundits have to say about this. It seems lose lose either way.

Either they agree with Obama which further alienates his anti war consituency

OR

The likelier scenario the Neo Cons say "Are you fucking nuts dude?" and when Neo Cons are like "maybe we should think twice about invading that country" you know you're waaaaay far to the right.

The worse outcome which I think is guaranteed regardless is that this speech along with the "Bush/Cheney lite" remark have started to make Obama seem like an out of touch sensationalist. Which is ironic because when considering these two major gaffe's he does seem naieve and irresponsible.

Oh the Irony.

PS I'm not slamming Obama but I think the average voter is definetely going to be thinking wtf is wrong this guy in the back of their heads.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:34:35 AM EST

Re: Seems dangerous (none / 0)

You are absolutely right. It is the dumbest campaign strategy touted out by his DC losing advisors.

Extremely bizarre.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seems dangerous (none / 0)

Isn't this speech just begging for a "Daisy Girl" Barry Goldwater-esque attack ad?

I mean Pakistan IS very unstable already and DOES have nuclear weapons


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary could put the nail in Obama's (3.00 / 2)

campaign..  she released a statement a few days ago about no unilateral ground troops in Pakistan..

you could easily make a mushroom cloud commercial


"Lobbyists Represent 'Real' Americans" - Hillary Clinton
by TarHeel on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary could put the nail in Obama's (none / 0)

Wow, you guys seriously believe destablizing Waziristan, a small northwestern portion of Pakistan, would lead to the use of a nuclear bomb?

Maybe it would be effective for a television ad, but it would not be true.  Pakistan is unlikely to fall apart on this basis.


by Jacor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary could put the nail in Obama's (none / 0)

Pakistan is not anything near united. The central government can't project power into large areas of it's own country. It's in currently only in cease-fire mode with India. Kashmir continues to be one of the most dangerous powder kegs of the world.

An invasion of US ground troops should cause the tribes to revolt. Musharraf position is so unstable that he either needs to engage the foreign troops or be disposed. As India is more friendly with the US then with Pakistan...

Pakistan is far, far more instable now then Iraq ever was under Saddam. And look how that turned out.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seems dangerous (none / 0)

I have always believed that all his money was coming from the neo-cons.  If so, then they wanted payback. To support the Bush Docterine in the climate is utter insanity.  I think Obama is getting ready to run as an Independent.  Move over Lieberman -- make room for another strange bedfellow.  


by changehorses08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

"Heck, even Clinton has the opportunity to move to the left of Obama over the issue of a the US launching a pre-emptive attack inside Pakistan. Because if Pakistan is game, why isn't Saudi Arabia as well?"

Damn straight.  We would have to expand the field to every country that could "harbors" terrorists, which includes Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc.  And, did I miss the memo that our "intelligence" is once again the beacon of truth?   What if we act on flawed intelligence that we only think is true?   Moving troops from Iraq into Pakistan, thereby widening a war that we should be gradually shutting down, is not the way to go.  

This type of talk will not restore confidence around the world that a Democratic president will act differently than Bush, that we are going to lean more heavily on the UN, diplomacy, get other nations to be with us, etc.  


by georgep on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:34:53 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

so when should we use force?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:49:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

You're not concerned about continuing a policy of unilateral invasion?


by bookgrl on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 0)

Answer the question.  Was Afghanistan in '01 a misuse of force because it was "pre-emptive"?  Is there no set of conditions under which a state sponsor should be subject to U.S. military force?  That seems to be the consequence of your characterization of Obama's views.


by msbatxnyc on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

it wasn't preemptive. Al-qaeda was sponsered by the Afghan government with money and services and lack of persecution. They had a shot to hand over the terrorist wing of thier military. didnt take it.


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

if the same conditions exist for that in Pakistan and all other tools have failed us-t hen what?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

So, then, are you ready to widen our scope to OTHER terrorist-harboring nations, such as Saudi-Arabia and Syria in addition to Pakistan?   Where does it end?   You smoke out an Al-Quaida training facility and kill 30.  Another 80 "new" Al-Quaida recruits will spring up the next day to take their place.  So, we repeat these surgical strikes into Al-Quaida training facilities until the countries are bombed into submission?

Whatever happened to the UN?   This is dangerous rhetoric that helps nobody.  


by georgep on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

the point- and i think you get this, and your leader agrees with this- is that no option should knee jerk be outside of bounds depending whats happening. what you seem to want me and others to say is that certain tools are. i am not going to say that, and the irresponsible approach for american interests would be for anyone to say that.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Wait a minute.  

no option should knee jerk be outside of bounds depending whats happening

I think unilaterally invading another country should be off the table, along with the use of nuclear weapons.  Let's not kid ourselves, there's about a 1% chance that this could be done without sending a significant number of ground troops into those mountains.  A missile strike isn't going to get the job done. Even if it's only a few hundred troops, that might be enough to further destabilize Pakistan and bring to power some people we really don't want to have access to a nuclear stockpile.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

That was the original question that nobody's answered yet.  If the conditions in Afghanistan justified an attack, then would not the same conditions in a half dozen other countries also justify an attack?


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

The answer is yes depending on the circumstances. It seems whats going on here is people want simple answers rather than complicated ones. There should be no abolutely nots in this discussion- yet who is creating one?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Justification for an attack is different than an imperative for an attack. Which is part of what's being avoided here.


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

i assuming a process that would be more involved - and to some degree it seems indicated by what obama actually said. people seem to leap to the last step as if that's the only thing he speech mentions.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

But the same conditions don't exist in Pakistan nor will they.

Let's send in Jack Bauer. a fictional character is nicely suited to fix a fictional situation.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

You are talking the politics. Let's talk the American interest and security issue. If terrorist camps are growing up there- what would you have us do?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:36:10 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

You can't complain about neo conservative unilateral tactics and then use tactics that are more reckless than neo conservative unilateral tactics.

I'll be fair though, I don't think Obama meant this speech to come off as hardliner as it does come off. But "lets send troops to Pakistan without their permission" is a poor choice of words.

"If Musharff won't act we will" reeks of "you're either with us or against us"


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:39:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

You didn't answer my question.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

1. Get Musharff's permission. Work with the Pakistan Army. They've begun to increase attacks on terrorists on their border. Musharf is acting already.

2. Use covert ops if necessary

3. Use drones and airstrikes.

4. Don't threaten to invade Pakistan like Obama because

A. If Musharf does act based on a public threat then he becomes weak and unable to help the US and/or gets overthrown

B. He very likely might give us the bird and then the US WILL have to invade Pakistan and fight the army and the terrorist.

C. Open invasion of another Muslism country...mmm increase terrorist recruitment and terrorist access to nuclear weapons.

D. Pakistan instablity = GREATLY INCREASED liklihood of India/Pakistan war. Both have nuclear weapons.


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:49:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 0)

Actually, you agree with the Senator.  Read his speech.


by Obama08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I've explained why its different in my other post.

Question though. If you agree with this speech things  do you still believe that Clinton is more Hawkish than Obama?


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:59:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I think that's a false frame. Hawkish to me means excessive use of force- of the stick- without just cause or reasoning or process. I don't see saying military action is a possible choice or saying I may meet with dictators without preconditions as a bad thing per se. THey are just saying,d epending on the circumstance, I may or may not use these tools.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 0)

How does what you just wrote differ from what Obama said in the speech posted above by Obama8?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

How does what you just wrote differ from what Obama said in the speech posted above by Obama8?

I'm not threatening Pakistan while running for office. See my 2nd post #4. Subpoint A-D


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:57:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 0)

So- let me get this straight. By him saying one of the options is to go in to take out the terrorist cells that are there, if the intelligence is good, and other options have failed, he is threatening Pakistan. Again, I don't see the logic.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

What criteria do we use for other options have failed?


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

That's a good question. You may have wanted to have started with questions rather than denouncing the idea in general. The honest answer is that we are dealing with hypotheticals. It willd epend on teh situation on teh ground in 2009 when whoever is in office, and it will depend on time framing. The problem with Bush was that he usurped normal questions of force and turned them on their head- like using the term defene when he was actually acting offensively.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I think we agree, finding a good criteria is the problem because it does usually depend on a case by case basis.

Which is why I think its troubling politically, both as far as his campaign and as far as his foreign policy if elected, that he's using such strong rhetoric.

As I said before I don't think he meant it to come off as strong as it does but rhetoric is very important in politics and especially in foreign policy.

Remember the effect of the phrase Axis of Evil?


by world dictator on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I agree- and that does seems to be a big problem for him and lends to the idea that he is still too green for the office he will be taking if he becomes President.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

No, he is not saying it as "one of the options."  He is stating "if he won't, we will."  


by georgep on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

after saying what the other options were before hand- maybe I misunderstanding the text of the speech but it doesn't read like he's saying this is the option I will take first.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course that is a threat. (none / 0)

Obama does not present this series of options ... he simply says if we have the intelligence, and Pakistan does not act on it, we will.

And he said this in a prepared address, so there is no question of being a response to a debate question interpreted one way by one group of people and another way by another group of people. It was a deliberate choice to say, "if they don't act, we will".

Perhaps he has decided that Iowa is a lost cause, and has decided to run to the right of Hillary on this issue, hoping to pick up independent voters in New Hampshire, where anyone is free to declare their party on the day of the primary.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

let me add it's not either the stick or the carrot. it's both. the threat of military force along with using real dimplomacy versus what passes for it in the last 7 years is exactly what any American president should have in his tool chest to accomplish our goals.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:57:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

If you actually use the treat of force you're not using any real diplomacy. You're just badly disguising your bulling. It's exactly the same sort of diplomacy we had last 7 years.

Lesson 1 in diplomacy, threating with force makes diplomacy impossible. Your negotiation just became a round of bullying. Either they'll do what you want and hate you, or call your bluff and don't do what you want and hate you all the same.

You don't use the stick and the carrot in diplomacy, you use the stick and carrot to motivate your lessers, you use it to motivate the dumb beast you own. I'll punish you if you don't do what I want, and I'll reward you when you do what I want.

That's not diplomacy, that's not a sane policy. That is Bush-Cheney. and not the light version.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Well, Pakistan has the bomb. There is already a ton of pressure on Musharraf, he has had a number of coup attempts. I think its much smarter to work with someone to destroy camps and have a long term allie, than to risk an Islamicist coup. The American name can't be anywhere near his actions in the Pakistani perception or were done. After all the groups trying to overthrow him are in direct contact with Al-Qaeda. Remember what happened when Bush said we would support the pro-democracy rebels in Iran recently? Well suddenly they no legitimacy because everyone assumed they were funded by the imperialists. You really want al-zawahiri with the bomb?


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

If none of the other approaches work- then what?


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

They will. But i just finished the entire speach and I want to be clear that I'm arguing against something he didn't propose.


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I am very hawish. I have no problem with a surgical strike if the intelligence is very very reliable. However, as a reponsible president, you have to weigh pros and cons on balance. It's dumb for any sensible president to make a promise, to answer to such a sensitive and hypothetical question, you don't rule anything in or out. You don't go on a TV to declare your intention to your ally who has nuclear weapons in that region.

This is beyond stupidity from a policy angle.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

did you read Obama08 post of the entire speech above before writing this? If his post is correct, then this seems like many of you misunderstand the point- or maybe I do, but right now I see a lot of knee jerk reaction based on politics rather than substance. I could be wrong, but I would like someone to explain to me how this is substantively different from what Obama is saying.


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I read the speech, or at least the relevant portions of it cited above, and I agree with areyouready on this one.  I think any U.S. president would consider taking action within Pakistan to get Osama Bin Laden without Musharraf's permission.  However, it totally depends on context.  If a single small bomb or sharpshooter could take him out with a 95% chance of success and zero collateral damage, any president would authorize it in a second.  If it would take hundreds of U.S. troops in a two-week campaign with  hundreds of non-combatants dying and a 25% chance of success, the a U.S. president would probably think twice about it.  It totally depends on context.

I don't see anything to be gained by publicly announcing one's intentions on this matter ahead of time, unless one is seeking to pressure Musharraf on the issue.  My guess is that quiet diplomacy would have more impact on Musharraf, who probably would like to support us but feels politically constrained by his domestic opposition, then bold threats against his sovereignty.

So while I have no problem with the content of Obama's position (in theory at least--how it plays out in practice depends on the context as stated above), I do have a problem with him issuing a policy statement on this matter.


by markjay on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

thats true- this is probably bad politics


by bruh21 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

clearly he (or she) didn't


by rapcetera on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 0)

yeah, you really need to actually read it. Its just not that controversial. You, me and the senator (and im sure the senator from new york) are all in agreement.


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

wE HAD BIN LADEN CORNERED IN THE REGION AND DID NOT ACT BECAUSE WE HAD TO ASK pAKISTAN PERMISSION.

I believe the american people would want us to take out osama bin laden if we get the chance and not have to ask other governments permission. we went into afghanistan in response to 9/11 and hunted for Bin Laden. He is holed up in the mountains on the border of Pakistan and Ahghanistan.

This is far different in invading Iraq IN WHICH THEIR IS NO LINK TO 9/11.


by BDM on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

That's an unproductive restriction of the elements in play here.  The problem that I find with Obama's position here is that it takes a similarly limited view of what problem needs addressing.  We can have a discussion of what role, if any, proactive military force should have in battling terrorism, but not outside the context of what non-military and non-diplomatic means will be exerted in tandem.  The one thing that the debacle in Iraq has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is that having an exclusively military plan will fail.

I'm honestly more interested in a detailed discussion of how many tons of food with big American flags will be distributed. How many man-hours and supplies will be devoted to basic medical care. How many secular schools will be built and funded for five-to-ten years.  And I'm not saying it needs to be an extravagant outlay of the above mentioned necessarily.  But nobody EVER talks about this part of things.  It's always how much can we responsibly blow up, but that's not legitimate foreign policy.


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How do nuclear bombs in Islamicist hands ... (none / 0)

... strike you as good news for US national security?

The Bush regime has been trying to float an invasion of Iran over trying to develop the capability at some time years in the future ... but if we hand Pakistan over to an Islamicist government with a unilateral "military intervention" ... and an Islamicist government that takes over in that circumstance is likely to have a solid helping of hard-liners ... they inherit that capability, together with an existing stockpile of nuclear weapons.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do nuclear bombs in Islamicist hands ... (3.00 / 1)

And a cease fire with hated enemy who has nuclear bombs as well.

Invading Pakistan is totally unlike tap-dancing in a minefield...

It's more like staging the world competition of marching bands and showtime revue in a minefield...

with nuclear mines.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Im concerned with (3.00 / 4)

The question is not "whether or not to hunt out al Qaeda" as some wish to debate it.

The question is whether a candidate should tie himself to a policy of giving sovereign nations ultimatums about complying with US demands lest the US act unilaterally to engage within their borders.

I may support the policy if it becomes necessary when Obama is President and the moment is before us.

But to commit to such a policy now is problematic politically.


Hoosiers for Hill -- Barack Obama
by BWasikIUgrad on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:42:00 AM EST

Very problematic (3.00 / 3)

and it makes things a lot more difficult for Musharrif


by okamichan13 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:56:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly!!! (3.00 / 1)

Exactly right


by markjay on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

... sovereign nations with nuclear weapons. (none / 0)

That is a very big risk to be taking just to try to get a bump in the polls from the reflexive "bomb the suckers!" crowd.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 2)

I dislike the approach of Obama on this.  I disagree with this war-like rhetoric.  He is trying to out-hawk Hillary.  No thanks.

If Edwards had said this, many Obama supporters would be all over him with criticism.


by TomP on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:43:14 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Obama has been prepping for this speech for months.  We were (or should have been) aware of this by now.

His first mention of taking the fight to Afghanistan and possibly Pakistan was back in November.  He has simply chosen to bring it to the forefront now.

He has not done so without thinking long and hard about it.  He has tested the waters, seeing what others think of his ideas.

His stance was part of why I emailed him asking him to run for President.  No other candidate seems to care that Al-Qaeda runs amok in Afghanistan.  No one else wants to send reinforcements.

Democrats are too busy preening and looking anti-war.  Republicans are too busy shouting the mantra, "Stay in Iraq, Stay the Course!"

It's about time someone like Obama came along.


by Jacor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

You want unilateral action in Pakistan?
are you sure?

It's a country that is not only on the brink of civil war, but on the brink of, possibly nuclear, war with the second most populous country in the world.

And you want to invade it? seeing how bad things are in afganistan while the complete NATO was there, and how Iraq was completely utterly messed up?

Seriously?  This is not me being sarcastic or trying to be funny or flippant but I just can't believe that... Are you serious?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Obama appears to be owned and operated by the neo-cons.  Watch him run as an Independent just like Lieberman did.  He has assured the neo-cons that he would continue the insanity.  I guess the neo-cons understood this was not a time to get a Republican elected so they just might have co-opted a Dem.


by changehorses08 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I had to edit some grammar (not surprisingly) while the post was going up...


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:43:28 AM EST

Obama is telling it like it is (3.00 / 1)

Don't all progressives want to get the terrorists that did this to us on 9/11? Shouldn't every progressive candidate be stressing that we need to return to this effort and away from Bush's failed Iraq strategy?

I was doing a quick search---it doesn't seem to me Edwards, Clinton, etc have put out such a comprehensive approach. I really think this is the one to follow...is Clinton really going to make the argument that we shouldn't go after OBL?


by mdub12 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:45:24 AM EST

Re: Obama is telling it like it is (none / 0)

This is a ridiculous straw-man argument, and I'm not buying it. The issue isn't whether or not progressives want to capture bin Laden.  The question is do we threaten other countries with military action to get our way.  This is the same bull that Republicans have been using for the past 6 years to get their way.  Anyone who doesn't agree is helping the terrorists.  Your argument is exactly the same; if you don't agree with Obama, you must not want to catch bin Laden.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course we would like to ... (none / 0)

... and that is the point of the Obama speech ... to get us to think with our hearts, and turn our heads off for a while.

I don't think, however, that he will succeed in getting people to turn their heads off for the more than half year required to win the nomination.

This is fricking Pakistan he is talking about pushing over into the ranks of countries destabilized and ripe for Islamicist take-over ... a member of the nuclear club.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is telling it like it is (none / 0)

It's more of a question do we want to president of the USA to go after Osama Bin Laden in a way that would possible cause a nuclear war killing untold millions and possible destroying the world society and economy with them?

Our action don't exist in a vacuum. Invading a nuclear country that is perpetually on the brink of war with another nuclear country is not the way we bring that mass murderer to justice.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 5)

I really thought that we were a reality based community here, that we didn't simply read MSM reports and accept them at face value.  Obama did not say that he will invade Pakistan, he talks more about the aid to Pakistan and how he wants to work with them.  Yes, if we have actionable intelligence (aka we know exactly where they are) we will use a strategic strike against them.  When he talks about troops he talks about specifically about troops covert and lethal.

I suggest that all of you have a look at the speech before you go on about how hawkish Obama is being.  It is the right speech, it strikes exactly the right tone.  It speaks of stopping nuclear proliferation, it talks about increasing aid, it talks about filling the void which terrorists currently fill.  Read the speech and stop tearing the Senator down on a poorly written MSM story.  You are all above that.


by Obama08 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:46:47 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

Musharref's not in the most comfortable of positions right now.  If he cedes sovereignty to the United States willingly or by force, how does that possibly give him the slightest domestic legitimacy?  He's then left sitting in the middle with the Americans saying he can't stop terrorists and the Muslim hardliners saying that he's selling out the cause.  Who's left in that coalition at the end of the day?


by Lucas O'Connor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is there any doubt it is military action? (none / 0)

He did not say that he would invade ... he said he would order unilateral "action" if the government of Pakistan said no.

Is there doubt it is military action he is talking about? Does anybody seriously believe he means to freeze the credit card accounts of the Al-Qaeda leadership, or slap a punitive duty on their imports?

What is the point of aiming for the hawk vote with this language unless he is talking about a military strike ... in rough mountainous terrain riddled with caves as well, so we are not talking about an air strike alone.
 


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:07:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I feel like you guys refuse to actually read/listen to the speech and istead rely on what the MSM released about it this morning. That's sad.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:47:12 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (3.00 / 1)

I wonder if anyone here actually read the entire speech? Here you go: http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/th e_war_we_need_to_win.php

Gosh, folks cherry pick info to suit their needs but that sounds familiar doesn't it? ;^)


by shanay4363 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:48:18 AM EST

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

I read the speech...ok but not terribly original...but there was nothing in it that mitigates what he said was an option...using the military to attack terrorists in Pakistani territory without their permission...

It was politically dumb to include it in his speech, and if he means it just plain dumb...

Compare to Hillary's position on this topic

"At a fund-raising dinner arranged for her by the National Association of Pakistani-Americans, she rejected the suggestion by some US officials and lawmakers that the United States should conduct unilateral military operations in the tribal region to destroy alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban safe havens.

Such a move, she said, would not produce the desired results and would create new problems. Only a combined effort by the Pakistani and US troops could destroy militant hideouts in the area, she added.

Ms Clinton said that in January she visited Pakistan and discussed the US-led war against terrorism with President Gen Pervez Musharraf. She said she agreed with the Pakistani leader that the two countries needed to work together to defeat extremists because this war could not be won without such cooperation.

She also emphasised the need for combining military tactics with an economic strategy to address the root causes that bred extremist ideologies."

http://www.dawn.com/2007/07/27/top8.htm


by SaveElmer on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

wOULD SHE DO A SURGICAL STRIKE AGAINST bIN lADEN IF ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE SHOWED HIS LOCATION? OR WOULD SHE SEEK PERMISSION FROM THE pAKISTANI GOVERNMENT WHICH MAY ALLOW BIN LADEN TO ESCAPE LIKE IN TORA BORA.


by BDM on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:41:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and the Mid-East (none / 0)

If word got out that the U.S. conducted military operations inside Pakistan it would touch off demonstrations that could easily topple the government...

Plus, the chances that air strikes in the Pakistani mountains could get bin Laden are remote...would take a land force...

Christ, even George Bush realizes how stupid this is...


<