An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary polls

(cross-posted at Daily Kos)

[Author's note: This is a hell of a long post...apologies beforehand!]

I have long espoused the views that polls in the Democratic presidential primary are not as important as the media (and the blogosphere, to some degree) makes it out to be. Nevertheless, we now stand barely 6 months from the Iowa caucuses (unless they are moved up earlier), so I figured it would be a good time to take a look at what the national polls are telling us about the race for the Democratic presidential nomination at this point in time. It was around this time in the 2004 election cycle that Howard Dean began his meteoric ascent in the national polls, which then remained largely unchanged until John Kerry's victory in Iowa. That being said, the dynamics around the race in 2008 are quite a bit different. I'll summarize the differences to keep in mind, then turn to discussing the national polling that has been done to date - and what it means for the candidates so far.

<u>2008 != 2004</u>

The first - and most important - factor to keep in mind is that this election will not be like the last. Why? The biggest factor, first and foremost, is that George W. Bush will not be on the ballot. Due to this, I think there will be a much less likely scenario where you have a "Dated Dean, Married Kerry" situation that happened. Because Democrats wanted to dispose of Bush last time around as much as possible, it's been posited that primary voters ended up going for the more 'electable' Kerry instead of either Dean or Dick Gephardt, who were the presumed favorites in Iowa (Dean had the money, Gephardt had the close labor ties and geographical proximity). That's why I think it's less likely that you'll have a similar surge in the Iowa polls, like Kerry did in 2004, in the last couple of weeks in the race.

The next important factor? George W. Bush will be on the ballot. By this, I am referring to the political environment surrounding the 2008 election. Although neither he nor Dick Cheney will be on the ballot, the circumstances that America faces are a direct consequence of their mishandling of the country. And instead of facing Bush directly when his approval was in the mid- to high-40s, he is now sinking into the mid-20s - with nothing to stop his continued descent towards Nixonian levels. The war in Iraq is deeply unpopular, and that has infected the public's view of just about everything regarding the White House and the Republican Party. What does that mean for Democratic primary voters? I think it's also likely that there will be less focus on the 'electability' argument as a result. The general sentiment around the country - whether it's the generic ballot polls, most of the head-to-head matchups, the online trading futures, you name it - is that the Democratic nominee will be elected in November 2008. Therefore, it will reinforce the point I made above; voters will be less likely to vote based on this notion of who is the most electable.

Now turning an eye towards internal party dynamics, I think the biggest difference within the Democratic field this time around is that there are much bigger names. In 2004, Dean was able to catapult himself into the spotlight because none of the other candidates - Kerry, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman, Bob Graham, and so forth - were well-known to the general public. This time around, three Democratic candidates - Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Edwards - are pretty well-known by the voters, with another prospective candidate (Al Gore) getting a lot of media attention. I think this is the reason why the poll numbers (as you will see below) have been rather static. With so many big players on the stage already, it's hard for a Bill Richardson or a Chris Dodd to break out of the low single digits nationally (although Richardson has been rising slowly in Iowa). It's why, despite 258,000 donors to his campaign (a staggering amount by anyone's measure), Obama has been unable to make steady advances in the polls against Clinton.

<u>Analyzing the Polls</u>

The national polls that I included below are all from data coming from PollingReport.com. In terms of prominent polls that are missing, I was unable to obtain Rasmussen's numbers, as they appear to be behind a subscription-only firewall at their website. That being said, you can view their numbers here at Wikipedia. As another point, I have only included polling data that has ending dates after February 10 (when the last of the 'Big Three', Obama, officially entered the race) and polls that have at least 3 observations between then and the present.

One problem with ARG's methodology is that it includes likely Democratic primary and caucus voters. Does this focus strictly on registered Democrats, or does it include Democratic-leaning independents? A little clarity would be nice. Nevertheless, this poll doesn't show promising trends for either Edwards or Obama. Edwards dropped off quite a bit after nearly catching up to Obama, who appears to have steadily dropped off since officially announcing. Meanwhile, Clinton continues to steadily climb in the polls, commanding a 20-point lead over Obama as of the latest poll.

The NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows Clinton climbing back up to a double-digit lead after having just a 5% lead over Obama, well within the margin of error. Again, the glaring error in this poll is that it includes non-Democrats who said they would vote in a Democratic primary. As this varies state by state, it's probably not the best idea to include such factors that make it statistically more difficult to model. I would suspect that Obama's bounce in the April numbers could be attributed to a post-1Q fundraising boost. Nevertheless, it seems that Clinton jumped back up, possibly aided by her strong performances in the 3 debates to date.

Quinnipiac only has numbers that included Gore, so I had no choice but to graph the numbers as given. As you'll see later on, I think that what we're beginning to see is the marginalization (or demotion) of Edwards as a top-tier candidate. Gore's numbers have continued to rise in recent months - winning the Academy Award for "An Inconvenient Truth", releasing his new book, "The Assault on Reason", and his just-completed Live Earth concert series have been giving the former vice president plenty of media attention. Edwards, meanwhile, has only made notable news for the mix-up regarding his haircuts - everyone else in this poll rises except for Edwards in the latest numbers. To boot, Quinnipiac also polled Democratic voters, which presumably includes only registered Democrats. It might have been better to apply a likely voter model.

These numbers from CBS, which are defined as 'Democratic primary voters', are probably a decent reflection of where most primary sentiment is nationwide (although the Big Three were the only named choices) - and it's a boon for Clinton and highly negative for Edwards. Clinton has steadily risen in the polls, likely a product of the debates; Edwards has fallen since April, probably because of the haircut news and possibly because voters haven't been particularly impressed by his debate performances (he's gotten better, but he has only stood out for calling out Clinton and Obama in the second debate over Iraq). Obama has seemingly found a plateau (or floor, perhaps?) at 24%, but this illustrates that the number of donors and the money raised doesn't move sentiment.




The Fox News polls, which I'm generally disinclined to favor - it is Fox News, after all, and the results are from all registered Democrats - but it seems in line with what other polls are seeing - Clinton is steadily increasing her margins, while Gore continues to overtake Edwards despite being undeclared. One additional note is that when Gore is not added as a choice, Hillary Clinton benefits the most. That may surprise many of us in the netroots, where potential Gore supporters are more inclined towards Obama or Edwards. But it's a trend that is playing out in other polls, meaning that much of Gore's support in these polls may not be 'grassroots' support. It may be a result of high name recognition amongst low-information voters, or it could be that there is a lot of 'institutional' support for Gore, so to speak.




CNN's poll is interesting in that some of Clinton's potential rise in the polls is instead given to Gore when he is included in the poll. Nevertheless, while the numbers differ slightly, it's evident that Clinton still maintains a healthy double-digit lead over the other candidates. In addition, Obama doesn't show any real upward trend in his numbers since declaring. It's not clear if the polls are simply missing what appears to be his enormous grassroots support, but it's not showing up in the national numbers. That being said, this poll should be taken a little more lightly than others due to the inclusion of Democratic-leaning independents.




Cook, in conjunction with RT Strategies, includes independents in this poll. It could explain why the lead between Clinton and Obama is lessened, but I don't think it is a big contributing factor. While there is more variability in these numbers, it shows the same trends: with Gore in the race, he overtakes Edwards; without Gore, the top three candidates are all separated by a tangible percentage of voters.




Gallup, compiling data for USA Today, by far has done the most polling for the primaries to date. They are also the only poll to show Obama actually overtaking Clinton at one point (although it is only when Gore is included), although the lead is statistically insignificant. In addition, this poll once again includes leaners, which is disappointing. On to the numbers show a fuller picture: Clinton's lead, contrary to most of the other polls except for Cook, seems to be trending downwards. Obama has trended upwards slightly, but took a hit in the last poll numbers. Edwards has been steady, if not trending down slightly. With the exception of a few dates in April, Gore has led Edwards; again, with Gore out, Clinton benefits the most. I would be inclined to think the June 3rd results were somewhat of an outlier. But USA Today has other interesting numbers to peruse: the results of a direct Clinton vs. Obama matchup.

This seems to confirm the general trends shown above: since Obama's entry on February 10th, he has trended upwards, while Clinton has come down. True, she still leads Obama by 11 points, but that is a far cry from the 29-point lead she had just as Obama declared his candidacy. What is there to take away from this? It's possible that the anti-Clinton forces would benefit by coalescing behind either Obama or Edwards (who wasn't polled in a similar fashion by Gallup) and focusing their attention on the front-runner instead of each other, as seems to be the case online.

<u>Conclusions</u>

* Hillary Clinton remains in a strong position nationally. While I still think that whoever wins Iowa may be able to steamroll, the presence of an effectively 'national primary' on February 5th is undeniable - and makes these numbers somewhat relevant. This bodes well for Clinton, who has been able to maintain her lead despite being outraised in primary dollars by Obama. While some polls show her trending either up or down, she still maintains a healthy lead over her closest competitors.

* Barack Obama must find a way to expand his support. While he has made a splash with his entry into the race, along with raising ungodly amounts of money through an amazing base of support, Obama has barely been able to make the kind of permanent dent in Clinton's edge that he needs. I'd be interested in knowing how many of his donations came from people who are registered Democrats, as it's clear that he can claim support from independents and Republicans. It could just be the Clinton machine being more efficient than Obama's, as he hadn't been planning to run for president until a few months before he announced. Nevertheless, Obama has not seen the numbers on the national scale (or the local polls, either) that he should be seeing.

* John Edwards is being marginalized and is on the verge of becoming a second-tier candidate. It'd be interesting to measure the effect of the haircut snafu - however unfair it was to the candidate (and I thought it was), it seems to have had a chilling effect on his poll numbers (and perhaps his 2Q fundraising as well). He continues to lead in Iowa, but barely - both Clinton and Obama are breathing down his neck, and if he cannot maintain his lead in Iowa and win there, his campaign is dead. Regardless, his declining poll numbers - sometimes into the realm of single digits - is worrisome.

* Al Gore's potential candidacy will have a material effect on this race. If Gore does not enter this race, it will be an immense boost to Clinton's campaign - somewhat ironic, considering that Gore and Hillary Clinton never much liked one another. It is somewhat paradoxical, but having another 'anti-Clinton' candidate like Gore in the race would actually help make it more competitive. I also suspect that Gore's support in these polls is understated, as the average primary voter will remember what happened in 2000 - and then recall that Gore has been right on every single issue since then. Will he or won't he? That's a question that we will not have a definitive answer for until after the Nobel Prize winners are selected. At this point, though, only Gore's entry would have an earth-shattering impact on the primary.


Poll
Do you believe Al Gore will run for president in 2008?
Yes
No
I don't know

Votes: 60
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Amen. (none / 0)

the analysis echoes my impressions from following these polls over the last few weeks.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 05:57:25 PM EST

BTW, very nice work, indeed. (none / 0)

I'll touch base with you on extending this work into a running project.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An analysis of the 2008 (3.00 / 1)

nice work,polls should tighten but i expect clinton to prevail


by bebe on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:04:09 PM EST

Re: An analysis of the 2008 (none / 0)

great diary.  bad news for the clinton haters.  but they will say"polls don't matter now". hillary is cruisin.


African-american for Hillary 2008
by terrondt on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who are these people who support Hillary? (none / 0)

Perhaps I live in some sort of giant bubble, but I don't know ANYONE that is enthusiastic over her candidacy. I know many people who are head over heels for Obama, people who love Edwards, but not a single soul that feels that way about Hillary.

My point is that I think that Hillary's high numbers are a result of the fact that most democrats are not ready to start thinking about 2008, and when asked for a choice they simply go with the obvious. I do NOT think that these numbers reflect Hillary's actual support.

I predict that by October or November, when the majority of Democrats start paying attention, Hillary's numbers will drop significantly and a lot of her support will go to Gore, Obama, or maybe Edwards. I think that she knows this and I think that is why her campaign is so obsessed with this inevitability strategy, they want there to be only one viable choice when people finally start thinking about their vote. This is why the Obama campaign is such a profound threat to HRC - because Obama is in the process of shattering Hillary's inevitability. He has grassroots support and a stunning ability to raise money that overshadows Clinton's money machine by sheer numbers (of donors). The fact that he remains 11 points behind nationally is not yet relevant, because most democrats have not started thinking about the election and have not yet considered him - eventually they will, and many of these people who reflexively answered "Hillary" will change their tune.

So, my point is: if Obama's numbers remain 11 points under HRC by late October, then he really has failed. As it stands now, he is without a doubt succeeding, and all that remains to be seen is whether HRC will succeed in preserving her inevitability, or whether Obama will succeed in giving the base a choice.


by alipi on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:06:57 PM EST

Re: Who are these people who support Hillary? (none / 0)

You are probably wrong.How do you explain her lead in the polls in NH where she is leading by 14points,the people over there are engaged and obama isn't leading,same with iowa,nevada,sc.You might be underestimating the impact of his short resume.


by bebe on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, the people are not engaged yet (3.00 / 2)

The case against Hillary has not been made yet. It will be, and Obama will have the money to make it.

Nevada has never had a caucus this early in the process. Even in Iowa, a lot of regular voters are not that tuned in yet.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 12:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who are these people who support Hillary? (none / 0)

"I don't know ANYONE that is enthusiastic over her candidacy"

My mom is very enthusiastic about a potential Hillary presidency. She has a ton of respect for Hillary and would love to a woman elected president. She was also very happy with Bill's 8 years of peace and prosperity and thinks a Hillary presidency would be a repeat of that.


by End game on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know ONE person supporting hillary... (none / 0)

My Republican uncle. Went to an event last nightwith 80 people in attendance. No one is supporting Hillary.


by yann123 on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:42:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who are these people who support Hillary? (3.00 / 0)

My point is that I think that Hillary's high numbers are a result of the fact that most democrats are not ready to start thinking about 2008, and when asked for a choice they simply go with the obvious. I do NOT think that these numbers reflect Hillary's actual support.

I think it's just the opposite. Everyone I know who is supporting Hillary is quite engaged in the election, familiar with the three top Democratic candidates, following the news, and talking to friends and family about the election. All like Obama very much and would like to see him become President someday when he has enough experience, but are supporting Hillary because -- for a lack of a better way to put it -- she is ready to lead. The support is strong and all will vote in the primaries.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Intrade (3.00 / 2)

An impressive analysis. I follow the Intrade betting markets as well as the polls, and at the moment Obama is about three points behind Clinton. He has been ahead of her a couple of times recently. Unlike many in the blogosphere I take the betting markets seriously. What do you make of the fact that he is doing so much better there than in the various polls? Obama's recent advance on Intrade clearly reflects his huge success at fundraising, but the people placing bets have access to the polls as well as the fundraising numbers and various other sources of information. So I think Intrade is at least as accurate a reflection of how the candidates are doing as the polls. Personally I don't see why Obama would want to be drawing close to Clinton in the polls at this point six months away from the first voting. If he were having trouble raising money that would give him a good reason, but he is not. In Ameridan politics it is far better to be an underdog for as long as you can. I think Obama is saving his money to make a massive push as the end, and I think this will work.


by herodotus on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:16:36 PM EST

Re: Intrade (none / 0)

The Politico recently had an article about manipulation on behalf of Obama at InTrade.  I think that article made a compelling case.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 707/Selling_Hillary.html


by truthteller2007 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade (3.00 / 1)

Referencing "persistent rumors" and quoting 2 random readers hardly makes a compelling case about anything.

I think the likelier explanation for Obama stocks' surge (and Hillary stocks' slide) is the release of the 2Q fundraising figures and the fact that Obama beat Hillary by about $10 million in primary money. The timing fits and any "manipulation" of the stock market should have already corrected itself by now.


by End game on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade (1.00 / 0)

Intrade is manipulated by a few Obama supporters who are buying and dumping stocks at low rates.  That is indisputable.  This also explains why Obama supporters tout these manipulated numbers, for they were the ones stacking the deck in the favor of their candidate at that site.


by truthteller2007 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nonsense (none / 0)

There is nothing to the article you recommend so strongly, and the author simply says it is a rumor. He does not even say he believes it. Who is stacking the deck in Obama's record breaking fundraising and his unprecidented number of contributors? You sound like a desperate Edwardian.


by herodotus on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade (none / 0)

I recommend you read and reread the article until its full import is comprehended: a stock expert noticed the manipulation.  


by truthteller2007 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade (3.00 / 1)

That "article" was nothing but a 200 word post from 2 days ago which quoted 2 anonymous readers regarding rumors about the manipulation of Hillary stock.

The supposed expert (reader) says: "Somebody is offering 10,000 HRC contracts at 42.4. That is why there really aren't any bids for her contracts. The total amount of contracts outstanding is 196K so that offer is huge in that context and in general."

So someone dumped a bunch of Hillary stock at a price that still seems about right (today's close was at 42.6, previous close was 43.5). Maybe the person dumped it because s/he lost faith in Hillary's chances after the 2Q fundraising figures came out?

Could it have been a wealthy Obama supporter out to impact the spin and perception about the fundraising news? Maybe, but the case is not made in the article. The author should have provided some stats about how frequent such dumps are, how significant their impact is on the stock and the news spin and whether or not there's an actual pattern here rather than just an isolated incident. As is we are just expected to take the word of an anonymous reader based on his analysis of one single stock dump.


by End game on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 10:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intrade (3.00 / 1)

link?


by markjay on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 02:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

British numbers (none / 0)

I have been looking at the British numbers, and Hillary has also tanked there while Obama has risen. You must be talking about another British market; can you give a name or a link. Intrade has been shown to be quite accurate historically.


by herodotus on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 08:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An analysis (none / 0)

I really don't think Gore is going to run.  His recent comments are very strongly pointing into the "no run" direction.

Good analysis of the race form a national level, which shows a widening gap.  That gap becomes even more distinct if you take Al Gore out of the equation.   But the more telling is her performance in the first 5 primary/caucus states, which strongly points to a winning strategy for Clinton.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:22:18 PM EST

what's interesting (3.00 / 1)

is that while there a few polls that show a slow Clinton rise, most of them are cnsistent with nothing at all happening in the race (nationally) since Obama announced.  Look at the plots:  the points just bounce and up down by about 3 points, and the margins of error are 3-5 points anyway. It would be nice you could figure out how to plot error bars on the charts.  

And really, is this lack of movement surprising?  Few people are paying attention, the money raised has not yet been spent on ads, and there's no reason for the average voter to commit to anyone now.  Furthermore, if you were inclined to support Hillary Clinton, nothing has happened to make you change your mind.


John McCain is a Bush ally on Social Security.
by John DE on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:29:54 PM EST

One thing that remains to be seen is (none / 0)

how Obama would translate his fundraising superiority into improved poll numbers vs Hillary.

He needs to followup his stunning Q2 numbers with a tangible narrowing of the HRC-Obama margin within 1-1.5 months, per my read, in order to gain the momentum needed to overtake her eventually.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:36:03 PM EST

Re: One thing that remains to be seen is (3.00 / 0)

how Obama would translate his fundraising superiority into improved poll numbers vs Hillary.

Simple. Obama has to use his money to demonstrate the experience and toughness for voters to trust his abilily to lead the country in a crisis.

That is the whole ballgame for Obama. It is clear as day in the polling internals. It is a very tall challenge because the indisputable fact is that he was a state rep three years ago and does not have any real big league experience.

His campaign, to date, has not done anything to address "the experience thing". If anything, his timidity and vagueness on campaign trail has reinforced the notion that he is not ready...especially in contrast to Hillary who has been tough, confident, and discliplined on the campaign trail.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When's the national primary? (3.00 / 0)

Truly wrongheaded post.

Iowa changes everything.

Why do you ignore that?


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 06:55:47 PM EST

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

Although I agree with you that Iowa changes everything, it's not "wrong-headed" to speculate that the drastically altered primary calendar might make national polls more relevant to who wins the nomination.


"ex nihilo nihil fit"
by Lassallean on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:00:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

it is if there is no proof other than bare opinion. Bowers- whatever one thought of him- would always give a lot more anlaysis to backup his conclusions. This isn't my interest, and I come here to see these kinds of anlaysis, but I am not going to go out and do this. The people who professed to be interested in showing us the state of the rate should- well show us the state of the race in the context of actual real analysis rather than regurgitating polls. What do the polls me- for example- when compared to not just 2004 but other years? Is it really all that different? If so- how? Has anyone been able to pick a candidate based on polls this far out when our primaries? if so- when?

By the way- your point- I could argue would make Big Tent's point even more accurate. That the stacking of the primaries close together gives more weight to whoever comes out of Iowa and NH doing well because that's who will get the positive press.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

let's see: (none / 0)

Iowa

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Edwards    Obama    Richardson    Spread
RCP Average    06/13 - 06/30    -    24.7    25.3    17.3    7.3    Edwards +0.6

Nevada

Poll    Date    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Richardson    Spread
Mason-Dixon    06/20 - 06/22    39    17    12    1    7    Clinton +22.0
American Res. Group    06/15 - 06/19    40    16    16    --    6    Clinton +24.0
Mason-Dixon    04/30 - 05/02    37    12    13    9    6    Clinton +24.0

NH

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Richardson    Spread
RCP Average    06/04 - 06/30    -    34.2    21.6    12.0    8.6    Clinton +12.6

FL

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Spread
RCP Average    06/04 - 06/25    -    37.8    21.8    13.3    --    Clinton +16.0

SC

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Spread
RCP Average    05/08 - 06/30    -    29.5    26.8    15.3    Clinton +2.7

National

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Spread
RCP Average    06/11 - 06/28    -    37.3    23.0    12.0    15.0    Clinton +14.3


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 10:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let's see: (none / 0)

i have no context for this data at all. you really don't get it do you? without context you are just talking out of your ass. down below you will see what i admit i know and what data i need. i admit its an inexact approach, but instead of doing you are playing this one upmanship bullshit, and frankly you are boring.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let's see: (none / 0)

Look, bruh21, I know you don't like a lot of people here, but can't you be a little more civil?   So, Nuevoliberal (a diehard Gore supporter, btw.) does not share your opinion.  That does not make him a bad egg.    


by georgep on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 04:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let's see: (none / 0)

That RCP average leaves out a lot of polls.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 06:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

As I noted in the comments over at dKos, I do think the state polls are relevant. I'll do a post on Iowa and New Hampshire next weekend - I'm sorry I don't have hours upon hours to compile all this data at once. This took long enough as it is.


by PsiFighter37 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (3.00 / 1)

Your conclusions are present in THIS diary, not in your subsequent diary.

Your conclusions are based on solely national polls, wioth no consideration of how nbational polls change the moment Iowa returns results.

I stand by moy comment, this is a wrongheaded diary.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:15:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (1.00 / 0)

No, I think the conclusions are still relevant.

See you around.


by PsiFighter37 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

How are the conclusions of this diary that are relevant? More importantly how are they any different than what George and others post on a daily basis here? I didn't see anything new other than what everyone already knew before reading your diary. What new conclusions are you adding?

If you wanted to do something different, why not a more indepth analysis of the various polls from say 1980 through now, and what they have meant at this stage. You don't contextualize your assertions at all other than to tell us that this year is different? I mean you say HRC and Obama and Edwards are much more well known- based on what are you making this assertion?

For that matter- going back to Big Tent's point- how are you able to determine that this year will be different with regard to Iowa than in other years where big candidates were running? There were years in which we did have clear front runners- how does this year differ from those years?

If you are going engage in this analysis provide us a full picture because I have yet to see one diary do that. I am honestly not interested in cherry picking. Where ever the chips fall they fall. But this analysis even for a lay stats person like me, seems a bit weak on showing what it asserts.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The consumate Iowa diary (3.00 / 0)

has already been done it seems:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore


by okamichan13 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The consumate Iowa diary (3.00 / 0)

thank you- when this comes up again i will link to this


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

The state polls are certainly relevant. The problem, in most states, is that there are so few of them with such whopping inconsistencies, that it's difficult to put any stock in them.

It's not like the national polls where you have 10 pollsters releasing all the time, so you can spot the meaningless outliers. In Iowa and SC, I have no idea what's real or not.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iowa will not have as much impact (3.00 / 0)

for the same reason that the polls have been relatively stable: most of the names are well known, unlike 2004, when people weren't too sure about anyone.

Edwards would likely not get as much bounce from an Iowa win because he is expected to do well there, having invested quite a bit of time over the years. Obama may get a larger bounce out of Iowa, and if the bounce adds up to leading in national polls, that would be one scenario where he may manage to displace HRC come super Tuesday.

It is entirely possible that Hillary can sustain up to 3 losses (perhaps) in the front five, IA, NH, SC, NV, FL, and still come out of Tuesday headed for the nomination.

Finally, since Super Tuesday does have a national spread, national polls should perhaps be considered a measure of how the candidates may do subject to what comes out of the front five states.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (1.66 / 3)

You have been disproven so many times on this I must conclude that you simply want to believe it. Some one was nice enough the other day to actually- and Iw ish I could find the diary- finally do the break down regarding the early voting argument as well as the polling argument.

The rest of what you post is the exact same mimimize the outcome argument that has been floated around here before as well. Based on what are you making your arguments. What polling what analysis? Look. I am all for saying we don't know. That would be about what i think at this point. But those of you professing to know- there are so many holes in your analysis that it doesn't take much to question it.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Blah blah blah (none / 0)

You have been disproven so many times on this I must conclude that you simply want to believe it.

I don't recall whatevr the hell you are talking about here.

Please link to exactly what you are referring.

I also want at least three occassions because you audaciously go on say "so many times" of whatever it is you're referring to.

Otherwise, please refrain from baseless charges you've pulled out of thin air.

But those of you professing to know- there are so many holes in your analysis that it doesn't take much to question it.

Blah blah blah.

This is all what we can say with with high level of confidence: if the primary election were held today in all 50 states, with very high likelihood, Hillary would win at least some 40 odd states.

Everything else is a set of projections and impressions. You have no place to come here and issue generic attacks on someone else's take, when anyone's projection, including your own, can be attacked using the exact same words.

~~~~~~~~

Now, let me see those links.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:16:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blah blah blah (none / 0)

Every few diaries- unless I am getting the screen name wrong- you post similar comments along the lines that I see you posting here. Mostly about how the change in primary structure will lessen the importance of Iowa. If that's not you, then I appologize (but I am not going to waste time trying to prove it was you). The basic point remains the same- if Iowa comes this close to so many other primaries- increases the importance of Iowa- one would imagine, not lessens. SOmeone did a diary about how its worked in the past, why the primaries will occur this year, what the impact early voting if any would have etc. It was actually a pretty good primer because it went into the historical analysis that is lacking these days in all these diaries. You may or may not be right- but one would think to make such arguments you would rely on something more.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

readers, please see (none / 0)

below.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blah blah blah (none / 0)

Oh- one of the points that was made that the early primaries would mean early voting which meant most people would vote during Iowa etc. That was disproven by the diary on early primaries.

Also, another discussed the specifics of your claim- or maybe it was one in with Armstrong in which someone broke down the prior election cycles- again I can't remember, but it pretty much showed that things like name ID and other factors have no been central. Someone showed that basically no one who hasn't won Iowa and NH has won the nomination, and that not winning Iowa is a near deathblow for most candidates. For example Kerry's lead going into NH before Iowa and Kerry's lead after was shifted by something like 15 pts. They also did other race years and it was also the case.

Can you show some historical analogy that suggests when the lead event has such an impact it's impact will be lessened due to things like you are doing- ie, playing the expectations game? Is that Hillary's strategy? To claim she expects to lose so it doesn't matter anyway?


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

please see (none / 0)

below.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (3.00 / 0)

Um, that is simply not supported by the data.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (none / 0)

Um, that is simply not supported by the data.

Can you be more specific?


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (3.00 / 0)

Iowa's impact is demonstrated through the years, irrespective of the "Well knownness" of the candidates.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (3.00 / 0)

How about Hillary finishes a close second, and Obama lags far behind? Let's imgagine such scenario:

Edwards 35
Hillary 33
Obama   20

I suppose this to be the likiest scenario. I believe it'll will be over if this scenario materializes.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (3.00 / 0)

But that concedes my point.

If Hillary only barely loses, then the impact of Iowa will be miuted of course.

But she must finish there to do that.

Come now, this is obvious.

Hell, if Hillary wins in Iowa, it is OVER!


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Totally agree. (3.00 / 0)


by bookgrl on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 10:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally agree. (3.00 / 1)

I think EVERYONE pretty much agrees with that sentiment... The only way I could see it not happening is if she won by 1% or 2%  and you end up with a situation like you had in New Hampshire in 1992.  Otherwise, if she wins by 5% or more, its over unless she just makes a major gaffe, like using a racial slur or some kind of scandal like her having an affair... neither of which I see happening.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 12:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

if that were the result (3.00 / 0)

then I would agree with you, Hillary could survive and cruise. Edwards would need a more convincing victory than that, and even then, Hillary could probably survive a second-place finish. We'll have to roll up our sleeves and push her down to third place.

She's got the lion's share of the major donors in Iowa, the best staff money can buy, and the Vilsacks campaigning for her full-time. If she can't win convincingly in Iowa, there is something seriously wrong with her as a candidate.

And, in fact, there is something seriously wrong with her as a candidate. She would lose the general. And count on the Obama and Edwards volunteers to explain that to undecided voters.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 12:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if that were the result (3.00 / 1)

the number don't buy your line?  What the hell does that mean?


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:55:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if that were the result (none / 0)

Nice ratings abuse Truthteller2007.  I hope they throw you off the site for this obvious TOS violation.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa will not have as much impact (none / 0)

That Scenario is not going to happen though.  Obama may indeed come in third but Iowa is gonna be close among the big 3.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the schedule is packed a lot (none / 0)

tighter after Iowa this time:


JANUARY 2008

January 14:      Iowa caucuses
January 19:     Nevada caucuses
January 22:     New Hampshire primary
January 29:     Florida primary, South Carolina primary (D)
February 2:     South Carolina primary

FEBRUARY 2008

February 5: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado (caucuses), Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota (caucuses), Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/2008elect ions/a/prez_primary.htm
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/path.pr esidency/

While one could argue that victory bounces will play a bigger role in a tigher schedule, it also depends on how the expectations are set as we enter the race and how the media ends up playing the results.

If a non-HRC candidate wins both IA and NV, then there may be enough bounce IF:

  1. one person wins both IA and NV
  2. there is a boom coming out of IA and NV
Otherwise, there is too little intervening time to make up ground in the other 3 states and then super tuesday.

Overall, my feeling (now looking at the actual dates) is that unless a non-HRC comes out of January with 3 wins, they don't have a chance to knock her out on super tuesday.

Of course, these are only impressions and not rigorous science.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Evidence suggests that you are wrong (none / 0)

the impact of Iowa will still exist

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore


by okamichan13 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dean would have won NH, (none / 0)

if he hadn't made the gaffe which would be blown out of proporation as the "scream". Interesting info, anyhow.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 08:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean would have won NH, (none / 0)

i'm sorry, but i don't believe that.  i was in new hampshire for dean, and while the new hampshire campaign was more organized than iowa, it was organized around this weird "what's your story" appeal that just didn't connect with voters.  add to that all the false 1's they got from their paid vendor, who had to be re-id'ed in the last weeks, the campaign was behind the 8-ball in new hampshire no matter how iowa turned out.

i strongly think dean would have done better, at least second, but i don't think he would have won nh based on his campaign "doctrine" there...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The implosion of his campaign (none / 0)

didn't have much to do with the scream. His lackluster performance in Iowa probably affected NH more than the scream.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some of Dean's best campaigning came (none / 0)

in NH after Iowa. He was phenomenal. He would have pulled out a win, had the media not played the "scream" 10K times.

Dean actually gained 4-5 points in the second half of the week between IA and NH.

I was observing this portion of 2004 minute by minute, practically.


by NuevoLiberal on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 02:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes... (3.00 / 1)

we started to recover when we started distributing the abc interview.  but there wasn't enough time, and it couldn't overcome over infrastructure weakness inherent in the dean operation in new hampshire...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (none / 0)

only wrong post becuase you don't like the results.  ah yes, in denial.


African-american for Hillary 2008
by terrondt on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (3.00 / 0)

You really, really, really don;t know what you are talking about.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (3.00 / 1)

You're also full of shit


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When's the national primary? (3.00 / 0)

Sure.

Because my man Dodd will shock the world!

As you say, I am in denial.

Sheesh.

What sophisticated analysis we get here at MYDD.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why did Obama plateau/drop at the end? (none / 0)

If you look at the poll averages from pollster.com (which include Gore) you'll see that Obama went up steadily during the first quarter (and before) but then plateaued or dipped slightly during the second quarter. The last three polls in this diary also show a sharp dip in Obama's numbers from a few weeks ago. Anyone have a good theory as to why? Did he just max out on the potential support currently available out there or did he do badly in debates and campaigning?

As for Hillary's chances I think they largely depend on how she polls against against potential Repug challengers once people start paying more attention (right now it's still too early for that amount of detail). On the one hand her negatives are high, on the other she still beats Thompson, Giuliani, Romney and McCain in many current polls. I don't think her Senate record, DLC ties, earlier support for the Iraq war, campaign style or anything else can do her in. It'll come down to how electable people find her relative to Obama, Gore or Edwards.


by End game on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:08:15 PM EST

Re: Why did Obama plateau/drop at the end? (none / 0)

If you look at the poll averages from pollster.com (which include Gore) you'll see that Obama went up steadily during the first quarter (and before) but then plateaued or dipped slightly during the second quarter. The last three polls in this diary also show a sharp dip in Obama's numbers from a few weeks ago. Anyone have a good theory as to why?

Sure. It's not complicated. He got the big bump from all the hoopla surrounding his announcement and then, like all candidates, settled in where voters are evaluating his campaign on its merits relative to the other candidates. The good news for Obama is that he's been able to maintain his support. The bad news is that he appears to have hit a ceiling.

He's got to do something to change the dynamic of the race if he wants to catch Clinton because it unlikely that Clinton will be making a lot of big mistakes. Her campaign is hitting on all cylinders and she's proven to be a very capable candidate.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Chance for Realignment (none / 0)

What strikes me is how much the Democratic primary this time around could be the exact inverse of the 2004 primary.

In 2004, you had Dean - who represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party - far in the lead nationally only to be foiled by Kerry in Iowa on electibility grounds.

This time, you have the play-it-safe centrist, Hillary Clinton, in the lead nationally who may crash in Iowa because she is not inspiring the Democratic wing of the Democartic Party.

I hope that the Iowans will realize that we have a historic opportunity here - an opportunity to realign the country along the lines of 1932.  We are living in a time where true evil has reared its head, an evil that has killed 3,600 American troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.  Nominating a candidate who has refused to apologize for abetting this evil, who has passed the buck to Bush at every occasion, who takes transparently opportunistic positions that alienate many and inspire none, would strangle our realignment at its inception and further alienate the American public from the political process.


"ex nihilo nihil fit"
by Lassallean on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:15:55 PM EST

Re: A Chance for Realignment (3.00 / 0)

In 2004, you had Dean - who represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party - far in the lead nationally only to be foiled by Kerry in Iowa on electibility grounds.

Dean and Obama are the in the same boat. All the enthusiasm in the world won't mean jack if voter don't perceive the candidate as experienced enough to be President of the United States. Dean imploded because he never crossed the "Presidential gravitas" threshold. Obama has hit a ceiling for the same reason.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Until (none / 0)

all the candidates start running tv ads to introduce themselves or unveil their vision for the future, polls are meaningless. I promise.

I would hold off on you NH and Iowa post until September when TV ads start reaching Iowa and NH voters and we can get a sense of what narrative and vision is most compelling to dem voters. Until that time, these polls are largely name recognition polls, meaning, not that voters have never heard of Obama or Edwards, but that they do not know where they stand on the issues, do not know their resumes or backgrounds, or do not understand their vision for the future.

two pieces of evidence:

1) Richardson and Romney's rise in iowa and NH are due entirely to their running ads in those markets as evidenced by the fact that nationally they have not moved much. iowa and nh voters now know a little bit about richardson and romney and, as a result, are starting to choose them (for the time being) in polls.

2) This article provides good evidence that Obama is still not well-known, which will be a large part of his advertising campaign.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationw orld/bal-te.obama08jul08,0,2005400.story ?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

A lot of people have a sense of who Obama is, (from his DNC speech or news shows) but very few know what he's done. The great thing (in my view) about his fundraising is that he'll be able to get his message out to all the important states.


by dpg220 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:33:41 PM EST

Re: Until (3.00 / 0)

The problem is that his bio ads feature his years in the state legislature, because that's all he's really got.

He, from all reports, was a dandy state legislator. But, unfortunately, voters know the difference between a statehouse rep and a President of the United States.


by hwc on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Until (none / 0)

What exactly has Hillary done with all her "experience" besides bungling Health Care in '93 and enabling Bush's invasion of Iraq in '03?


by Sam I Am on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree... (none / 0)

that obama does not have hillary's experience devising hillarycare or voting to invade iraq.  nor does he have her experience at alienating a substantial portion of the electorate.

thank god!

otoh, her experience is hardly relevant.  i still don't know why she's running for the presidency (except that she really likes living there, or some other nonsense), what she'd like to accomplish if she won, or how in hell she thinks she could divert the congress, media and country away from the inevitable psychodrama that surrounds her to get anything passed.

most of what hillary touts as experience is stuff that i'd like to see us move beyond.  i don't blame her, but i don't want to relive it, either.  and since i don't think clinton or rubin had much to do with the economic success of the 1990s, there is absolutely no reason for me to risk reliving the psychodrama.  when you start to account for all the democratic seats in congress that will be lost because hillary was president, it sure doesn't seem worth it.  she's a huge gamble -- for very little gain.

afaic, her experience is one of failure.  and she won't even admit that she made huge, immoral errors.  so it's double failure.

at least we know where barack wants to lead the nation, and we have confidence, based on his experience, that he can repeat his performance.  no one wants to see hillary's performance repeated...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 08:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (3.00 / 2)

This election is completely different from the 2004 election.  Some don't want it to be that way, because the candidate they like is far behind at this point, but there is no question that the primary calendar is different, the money situation is different, the early engagement is different and the players are well-known already, a complete reversal from 2004 when none of the candidates did anything for Democrats (they were to Democrats about what the current crop of GOP contenders are to Republicans.)   Now you have a quasi-incumbent running (Obama's own words) and a budding superstar.   This race is nothing like 2004, and I find it comical that some are trying to argue that way just because their candidate is at 12% to 14% nationally.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 08:25:22 PM EST

It's over babay!! (3.00 / 0)

Truly a ridiculous comment.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (none / 0)

Nobody said that it is over.  Only that this election is different from 2004.  You obviously disagree, which is your right.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (3.00 / 0)

Every election is different in some respects.

But you are arguing that it is different than eveyr election for the past 30 years.

And that is simply ridiculous.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:43:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (none / 0)

2004 - Kerry

2000 - Gore ran as quasi-incumbent, polled far ahead of Bradley everywhere, including Iowa.  Iowa served no slingshot function.  

1996 - Bill Clinton's re-election

1992 - Bill Clinton loses Iowa and New Hampshire.  The rest is, as they say, history.

1988 - Gephardt wins Iowa.  Dukakis places distant third.  Yet, wins nomination.

1984 -  While Mondale won Iowa he immediately went on to losing in New Hampshire to Gary Hart.  Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, Virginia and Louisiana, while Hart went on to win California and Ohio.  Mondale pulled it out in the end, but Iowa was certainly not helpful, as Mondale immediately thereafter went on to losing New Hampshire.  

1980 - Jimmy Carter runs for re-election.  

1976 - Carter came in second in Iowa to "uncommitted."  

---------------------------------------- --------------

Iowa's role as a kingmaker is certainly dubious at best.  Carter in 1976 placed second behind "uncommitted" and turned some heads.  Iowa certainly helped him make a name for himself against a crowded field.    In 84 an Iowa win did not translate into a boost for Mondale, who immediately went on to show poorly in New Hampshire and other early primary states.  In 88 Iowa did nothing for Gephardt.  In 92 Clinton won without Iowa.  You can make a case for Kerry, but the field this year is entirely different, and there is no historical evidence that a win in Iowa is the "be all," nor that a loss in Iowa means bad news for the rest of the race.  

Iowa has been less important to the nomination process than advertised by some here.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 10:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (none / 0)

Your own polling suggests IA isn't dubious. You are confusing certainty with impact. Big Dems point has never been that IA will decide the race. His point is that it will have an impact, and if you are going to try to gauge inpact the IA outcome is far more likely to matter than national polling done 6 months out. The point of these postings is that we have no idea at this juncture what will happen, and that nayone using national polls to say they do are engaging in even more dubious analysis. IA at least has some predictative value, and so does NH- even if its imperfect. From what I can tell- the national polls 6 months out- and no one has produced data for this which is real problem- hasn't been proven to do much of anything other than be used as marketing tools. Your candidate faces an uphill battle for other reasons. The schedule is such that it will be a long battle if she doesn't obtain early wins. She may still win the nomination but this runaway claim is suspect. As is the claim that national polling means that she is doing better is suspect because it has nothing to back it up other than numbers from this year.

Where are the prior years polling data to indicate that 6 months out the polling data is such to let us know outcome. Your candidate has a real problem. You has almost universal name ID_ I have a link below for that in another part of this diary. The otehr candidates do not. In other words, her numbers maybe her ceiling, not her floor. That she won't do better than just under 40 percent in state wide polls in NH or elsewhere, ALl of which says to me that 2008 will be a brawl and slugfesgt rather than a sprint.


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (none / 0)

Ah, so you concede the point made?  Good for you.  You can hardly claim that Iowa has been a crucial factor in presidential nominations when the evidence shows that not to be the case as strongly as suggested.

I stated in my first response to the diarist the following:

"Good analysis of the race form a national level, which shows a widening gap.  That gap becomes even more distinct if you take Al Gore out of the equation.   But the more telling is her performance in the first 5 primary/caucus states, which strongly points to a winning strategy for Clinton.  

Iowa is one part of the equation, sure.  However, the poster claimed "Everything changes with Iowa," which is historically untrue, as shown above.   Iowa did NOTHING for Mondale, he won the state, then dropped immediately to lose a bunch of states, only Gary Hart's personal troubles did him in in the end, not Mondale's Iowa win.   It was not a problem for Clinton to lose Iowa and New Hampshire.  Gephardt gained nothing from his win in Iowa while Dukakis ended up the nominee, despite placing a defeated and demoralized distant third in the state.  Only Carter to a small extent and Kerry to a larger extent gained via Iowa.   New Hampshire has actually been a lot more instrumental than Iowa in the respect of being a kingmaker, if you look at nomination history, at least on the Democratic side.  

So, yes, state polls are absolutely more important than national polls.  Nobody denies that, and there has been no effort to claim it being otherwise, and as you can see above, I mentioned that prominently in my response to the diarist.   However, the state picture looks even better for Clinton than the national picture at this point, to the extent that even if the national polls showed a different reading (i.e. Obama ahead) looking at the state polls a strong nod and a strong likelihood of the nomination would have to go to Clinton.   Now, before you jump on:  Yes, there are still 6 long months to go and a lot can happen.   However, the same was said when the race was still 10 months away, and if anything, the state polls have just gotten better for Clinton all around since then (in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, Florida, California, Texas, etc. )


by georgep on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 05:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over babay!! (none / 0)

by the way-the ceiling versus floor issue becomes a problem as other candidates drop out, undecideds make their decisions, electability becomes a factor, etc. long term analysis- that's about all I can say. Is look at the factors, and ask where does she grow?


by bruh21 on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 11:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know if I agree with this. (3.00 / 1)

It seems Edwards has basically maintained his position in the polls, he's ahead in Iowa, he polls the highest in terms of likeability. Obama's fine, but I'm not as impressed with him as I was initially, and my impression of Edwards has improved.  I wouldn't totally dismiss him.  And, I predict he won't just wilt off the national scene if he doesn't make it past the primary.  He's a rising star in his own right.


by bookgrl on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 10:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know if I agree with this. (none / 0)

What would you see him doing?  He doesn't seem like cabinet material to me, nor can I imagine him winning the nomination after two failed attempts.


by markjay on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 02:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I agree 100%.  This race is definately different than 2004.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 12:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]