Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience

1.  Lessons from 2004 and the 90's
You can't understand Barack Obama's appeal unless you reflect on the recent history of Democratic nominees for president.  For two straight presidential cycles, Democrats lost by being unable to present a candidate with a new frame for progressive politics.  John Kerry amassed an array of policy proposals by election day, including a fairly bold health care plan, but fundamentally lacked the ability to sell them to the American people.  He was unable to present a compelling vision for the progressive role government can play in society --- as I feel Obama did on the floor of the DNC in 2004, striking the perfect pitch:

Don't get me wrong. The people I meet in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks, they don't expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead and they want to. Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don't want their tax money wasted by a welfare agency or the Pentagon. Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn. They know that parents have to parent, that children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. No, people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. They know we can do better. And they want that choice.

Our next president will not only be the chief spokesman, the head campaigner, and the primary fundraiser for the Democratic party over the next four to eight years, but the primary advocate for progressive policies for the next decade.  There will only be one post-Bush election in which we will have the opportunity to reset the debate.  
Whatever you say about the Clinton administration and Bill Clinton's obvious talents, in the end it failed to build a progressive majority, failed to make the case for a universal health care system, and, more fundamentally, failed to make a defense for the role of government in society.  In this way, Bill Clinton would not, could not, lay the groundwork for a fundamental change in American politics.  The Clintons have had their turn in the spotlight.  As Bill Clinton said in 1992:

And we have to change in this country. You know, my wife, Hillary, gave me a book about a year ago in which the author defined insanity as just doing the same old thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

No progressive agenda will ever make it through the Senate unless our next advocate-in-chief can (1) strongly make the case to the American people and (2) not only elect themselves but provide the frame and rhetorical firepower to expand Democratic majorities.  
This election is about who can best fulfill the above goals.  Obama will continue to lay out his proposals in detail --- Hillary Clinton, not Obama, is the only leading candidate without a universal health care plan, and it is Obama who has taken the clear lead on ethics reform, both in the Senate working with Russ Feingold and in his presidential run, as well as delivering an agenda for relieving urban poverty that has gone mostly unnoticed by the mainstream media --- but this election is more fundamentally about the face of our party going into the next decade.

2. Barack Obama on the Clintons:
In his recent book "The Audacity of Hope," Obama wrote:

In the back and forth between Clinton and Gingrich, and in the elections of 2000 and 2004, I sometimes felt as if I were watching the psychodrama of the baby boom generation -- a tale rooted in old grudges and revenge plots hatched on a handful of college campuses long ago -- played out on the national stage.

Yesterday, Obama gave an interview in Iowa with the Associated Press and answered questions about the Clintons directly.

OSKALOOSA, Iowa (AP) - Democrat Barack Obama said Wednesday that while he thinks highly of former President Clinton, voters weary of Washington-style political wrangling want to avoid "the same old thing" as Campaign 2008 unfolds.
"I admire Bill Clinton, I think he did a lot of fine things as president and he's a terrific political strategist," the Illinois senator said in an interview with The Associated Press. "What we're more interested in is in looking forward, not looking backward. I think the American people feel the same
way. They are looking for a way to break out of the harsh partisanship and the old arguments and solve problems."
[...]
Obama [said] he thinks voters are looking to turn the page - and not return to an earlier political era.
"I think I'm in a position to bring about the change that people want," said Obama. "Change can't just be a slogan. Change has to mean that we're not doing the same old thing that we've been doing."
[...]
"What I know is the kind of experience I have outside of Washington as a community organizer working with families that are struggling, as a constitutional law professor, as a state legislator dealing with the very issues  that affect people, people find that experience at least as relevant, maybe more relevant, than experience in Washington."
[...]
"Hillary Clinton is a capable person and an experienced person and she's got a good track record as a senator from New York," said Obama, who said his history is one of pushing for change - not building a resume.
"I would not be in this race if I didn't think I had the capacity to bridge divisions along partisan lines, racial lines, religious lines, that was unequaled in the field," he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Ob ama-Interview.html

3.  Bill Clinton on "Experience"
In the presidential debates in 1992, Clinton was asked about his relative lack of experience:

[Jim] LEHRER: Governor Clinton, how do you respond to the President on the -- you have two minutes -- on the question of experience? He says that is what distinguishes him from the other two of you.

CLINTON: I believe experience counts, but it's not everything. Values, judgment, and the record that I have amassed in my state also should count for something. I've worked hard to create good jobs and to educate people...
And we have to change in this country. You know, my wife, Hillary, gave me a book about a year ago in which the author defined insanity as just doing the same old thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Experience is important, yes. I've gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year and month. I've touched more people's lives and seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and more promise, than anybody else who's run for president this year. I think the American people deserve better than they're getting...
We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. We're living in a new world after the Cold War, and what works in this new world is not trickle down, not government for the benefit of the privileged few, not tax and spend, but a commitment to invest in American jobs and American education, controlling American health care costs, and bringing the American people together. That is what works.
And you can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. Mine is rooted in the real lives of real people, and it will bring real results if we have the courage to change.

For all the talk about Obama lacking the experience to be a political leader, it should be pointed out that Obama is the only leading candidate who actually worked his way up through the ranks from the most local level to the most national.  This is the best education a political leader can have: to have had the contact with the real people their policies actually affect, to know how grassroots movements are built and where they fail.
Hillary Clinton, not Obama, is the candidate who stepped onto the highest level of politics due to celebrity and name recognition.  Obama spent his lifetime dedicated to community organizing and knows grassroots politics inside and out.  He is the only leading candidate to have really had this experience at all levels.  

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans92a1.h tml#c-experience  (thanks to Lovingj and sagereader).



Display:


Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 5)

Our next president will not only be the chief spokesman, the head campaigner, and the primary fundraiser for the Democratic party over the next four to eight years, but the primary advocate for progressive policies for the next decade.  There will only be one post-Bush election in which we will have the opportunity to reset the debate.  

Which is why I don't want someone who spends most of his time talking about post-partisanship and "new politics" as the person resetting the debate.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 07:23:31 AM EST

"New Politics" (3.00 / 0)

To realistically push through a progressive agenda in America, I feel like there are two political realities a person needs to recognize:
(1) Openly make the necessary odes to "personal responsibility" and "personal initiative" and concede there are limits to what government can accomplish --- as Obama did in 2004.  Bill Clinton, to his credit, pioneered this approach on issues like the Earned Income Tax Credit.  
(2) You simply need more cooperation in Washington:  you need 60 votes in the Senate for something like health care.  Even if the Democrats someday made their way to 60 votes, they would still have red-state Democrats who would balk at anything that wasn't couched in the right terms.
Obama's rhetoric seems to me like the best way on the table to do those two things.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (2.20 / 5)

"New Politics" = DLC = triangulation

Happy to see you compare it to Bill Clinton, for it is exactly the same, although it is couched in a new euphenism.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Framing (none / 0)

You didn't actually answer my point.  Do you disagree with those two statements?
Why not borrow the "personal responsibility" and "bipartisanship" frames and use them to pass a more progressive agenda?
For all of Clinton's failures on the domestic front --- not making the welfare reform bill less punitive or at least including daycare support for working mothers --- the EITC deserves some credit as a great back-door approach to poverty.  It will probably be expanded by whichever Democrat wins in 08.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:42:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

I actually did, and I believe we need to keep in mind how that strategy lost elections from 1994-2006, excepting Clinton's 1996 victory.  There is a reason Edwards leads in all the national hypothetical matchups at rasmussenreports.com.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:49:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

We just disagree about approach.
We lost the last two election cycles, and many other people have said this, not because of our policies (the DLC thinks Democrats lose because they're too liberal) but because Democrats rarely manage to strike the right tone when talking to Americans about poverty.
The people who have been most successful in the last ten years in the Democratic party have used one of two main themes:
  1. With a religious-left twist of "I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper," which was the trademark line from Obama's 2004 Senate campaign and his DNC speech.
  2. Calling upon an American "tradition of sharing," which Tom Vilsack touched upon, or Chris Dodd's similar "New American Patriotism."
Progressives need to keep finding compelling ways to talk about social justice.  In my diary, I'm just arguing that Obama hits the notes best for me.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:45:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

I do not see much of a discussion about poverty in your diary.  And the candidate who is discussing that is John Edwards, who noted the existence of a "Two Americas," and who now likens his campaign to one that builds "One America."  When discussing this problem at the Howard University debate, Edwards had the resonating message on poverty.  

I am not sure I agree on the use of faith, as that can backfire, and it will only attract so many Republican voters who vote on faith.  And even if Obama's notion of faith was employed in 2004, I have not witnessed it deployed in relation to poverty during this campaign.  And I also wonder if one should use faith in such a discussion, because there are other and perhaps more compelling moral arguments to be made on poverty.  

Because you are relying on your response to the rhetoric as opposed to analyzing the rhetoric itself, I guess we will have to disagree.  I see a renewed version of triangulation with a different vocabulary, while you see an inspiring religiosity that is wholly the invention of Obama's advisors.  Yes, this happens when writers are excited about a candidate, but I think one can agree that Obama's centrist image is one crafted with the tools of the DLC, even if he is not an avowed member of that organization.


by truthteller2007 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 3)

On th esubject of poverty:

Edwards does a very good job of preaching to the choir.

Obama is out in white churches seeking out the converts necessry to form teh center-left supermajority that will be necessary to actually enacted laws to address poverty.

Regardsing the DLC,

The only DLC member out campaigning yesterday was Bill Clinton.


by Sam I Am on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:46:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 2)

isn't interesting that you try to paint obama as representing an organization that edwards was a member of!  when do you get to telling the truth?  or is it just all these inconvenient ones you have to ignore???


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 3)

Huh? This doesn't make any sense? Wasn't Edwards a member of the DLC? Is Obama a member of the DLC? No.

Correction - Obama has been talking about his Faith and Politics since 1992 when he wrote "Dreams From My Father" Do yourself a favor and read it. There's one thing about Obama that no one can argue - HE IS CONSISTENT! His themes are consistent. His words and actions are in sync. He speaks progressively and lives progressively. He's real...

Why hasn't Edwards continued to discuss the "Two America's"? He seemed so genuine back in 2004 and I really yearned for him to win. But somewhere between 2004 and now, he lost his authenticity. When he talked about Poverty at the PBS debates, he was so hard to believe, All I could think of was his new home, hedge funds, $400 haircuts etc. I'm not saying he isn't allowed to enjoy his wealth, he is, I'm just saying that his words and his actions aren't in sync. Not anymore

All the fire breathing leftist rhetoric Edwards exudes now won't win him votes in the general election regardless of what any polls - 16 months removed from the general election - says....

There's a reason he's dropped down into the second tier (according to the BS polls).  I hope he finds a way to re-energize his campaign, because I do like him

Obama's gift is in his ability to frame left leaning principles and policies in a centrist (for all America) manner.


by rapcetera on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (none / 0)

Edwards was never a member of the DLC. Obviously, the rest of the stuff you wrote about him is a bunch of crap, too. Words and actions not in sync? The man rounded up hundreds of college students and worked and sweat with them in New Orleans cleaning up flooded homes. He's walked picket lines with janitors. He's given hundreds of thousands of dollars to charity.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

Yes he's given hundreds of thousands of dollars to charity, he gave 6 million to his own campaign.  Yes he took about 700 students down to New Orleans, Crusade for Christ took 4,400 at the same time.  The trouble is when he says I've devoted my life to the cause of poverty, we already have in our minds the image of what that means and it is more like Mother Teresa then a guy sitting in a 28,000 foot home getting $400 haircuts.  He's overplaying and people aren't buying it this time.  


by DD2 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 3)

I don't know if he was ever a member, but he did address them during the 2004 campaign/during his time as Senator, and many of his speeches appear on their website:

Remarks of Sen. John Edwards to the 2002 DLC National Conversation: "Putting Responsibility First"
July 30, 2002

Here is a speech on education policy he gave in Maryland that appears on the website:
Education Policy Address by Sen. John Edwards
November 21, 2002

Here is a speech he gave from the Senate floor that appears on the DLC website:
Foreign Intelligence Collection Improvement Act of 2003
Remarks Delivered on the Senate Floor

February 13, 2003

Finally, the website ontheissues.org says he was a member of the DLC:


Member of Democratic Leadership Council.
Edwards is a member of the Democratic Leadership Council:

Mission
The DLC's mission is to promote public debate within the Democratic Party and the public at large about national and international policy and political issues. Specifically, as the founding organization of the New Democrat movement, the DLC's goal is to modernize the progressive tradition in American politics for the 21st Century by advancing a set of innovative ideas for governing through a national network of elected officials and community leaders.
Who We Are
The Democratic Leadership Council is an idea center, catalyst, and national voice for a reform movement that is reshaping American politics by moving it beyond the old left-right debate. The DLC seeks to define and galvanize popular support for a new public philosophy built on progressive ideals, mainstream values, and innovative, non bureaucratic, market-based solutions. At its heart are three principles: promoting opportunity for all; demanding responsibility from everyone; and fostering a new sense of community.

Since its inception, the DLC has championed policies from spurring private sector economic growth, fiscal discipline and community policing to work based welfare reform, expanded international trade, and national service. Throughout the 90's, innovative, New Democrat policies implemented by former DLC Chairman President Bill Clinton have helped produce the longest period of sustained economic growth in our history, the lowest unemployment in a generation, 22 million new jobs, cut the welfare rolls in half, reduced the crime rate for seven straight years, balanced the budget and streamlined the federal bureaucracy to its smallest size since the Kennedy administration.

Now, the DLC is promoting new ideas -- such as a second generation of environmental protection and new economy and technology development strategies -- that is distinctly different from traditional liberalism and conservatism to build the next generation of America's leaders.
Source: Democratic Leadership Council web site 01-DLC0 on Nov 7, 2000

New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate.
Edwards adopted Third Way principles of the Democratic Leadership Council:

America and the world have changed dramatically in the closing decades of the 20th century. The industrial order of the 20th century is rapidly yielding to the networked "New Economy" of the 21st century. Our political and governing systems, however, have lagged behind the rest of society in adapting to these seismic shifts. They remain stuck in the left-right debates and the top-down bureaucracies of the industrial past.

The Democratic Leadership Council, and its affiliated think tank the Progressive Policy Institute, have been catalysts for modernizing politics and government. The core principles and ideas of this "Third Way" movement [began with] Bill Clinton's Presidential campaign in 1992, Tony Blair's Labour Party in Britain in 1997, and Gerhard Shroeder's Social Democrats in Germany in 1998.

  1. The Third Way philosophy seeks to adapt enduring progressive values to the new challenges of he information age. It rests on three cornerstones: the idea that government should promote equal opportunity for all while granting special privilege for none;
   2. an ethic of mutual responsibility that equally rejects the politics of entitlement and the politics of social abandonment;
   3. and, a new approach to governing that empowers citizens to act for themselves.

The Third Way approach to economic opportunity and security stresses technological innovation, competitive enterprise, and education rather than top- down redistribution or laissez faire. On questions of values, it embraces "tolerant traditionalism," honoring traditional moral and family values while resisting attempts to impose them on others. It favors an enabling rather than a bureaucratic government, expanding choices for citizens, using market means to achieve public ends and encouraging civic and community institutions to play a larger role in public life. The Third Way works to build inclusive, multiethnic societies based on common allegiance to democratic values.
Source: Democratic Leadership Council web site 01-DLC1 on Nov 7, 2000

Member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition.
Edwards is a member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition:

The Senate New Democrat Coalition (SNDC) [is analogous to] the New Democrat Coalition (NDC) in the House. Members of both groups are moderate Democrats who advocate a new centrist, progressive approach to governing and who often reach across party lines to get things done.

Established in 1997, the House New Democrat Coalition (NDC) grew to 64 members between 1998 and 2000, making it the largest caucus in the House. With the success of NDN's top House candidates on Election Day, the NDC has grown to 72 members in the 107th Congress. The Senate New Democrat Coalition (SNDC), established in 2000, is already 20 members.

In announcing the establishment of the SNDC in February 2000, Sen. Landrieu stated, "The American people are tired of the same old proposals and are demanding that we work together in a more creative way on the many problems facing our nation. Too often here in Washington, the loudest voices are the ones on the far left and far right. That is why this group was formed, to give voice to those in the sensible center." The SNDC has already made its voice heard on critical issues ranging from education to trade to health care and, with the Senate evenly divided, the Senate New Dems are increasingly determining the balance of power.
Source: Senate New Democrat Coalition web site 01-SNDC0 on Jan 1, 2001


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 3)

The website I found could very well be wrong (all I did was Google Edwards + DLC). But he was at least addressing and praising them before he became the candidate he is in this race.

By contrast, Obama moved to repudiate the DLC when they tried to add his name during the 2004 Senate race:

Barack Obama will not be carrying the Democratic Leadership Council's baggage in his race to become the second Black person to represent Illinois in the U.S. Senate. The state senator and professor of constitutional law has told The Black Commentator that he is acting to have his name stricken from the "New Democrats Directory," a list of several hundred DLC-affiliated elected officials.  

"I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the DLC," said Obama, in a statement that substantially reflects a telephone conversation with Associate Editor Bruce Dixon, this weekend. "It does appear that, without my knowledge, the DLC...listed me in their `New Democrat' directory," Obama continued. "Because I agree that such a directory implies membership, I will be calling the DLC to have my name removed, and appreciate your having brought this fact to my attention."

Source: Black Commentator

I think Edwards is a much better candidate than he was in 2004, and I'll be happy if he is the nominee. I choose to support Obama because he has been consistent with his positions and values throughout his life and career. I like them both, but this is one of the things that makes Obama stand out for me.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama On DLC Web Site4 (none / 0)

Obama is still featured on the DLC web site. He has been listed as one of their "100 To Watch" since 2003.

It appears that he responded with answers to their questions for the bio sketch of him.

DLC | Profile | May 15, 2003
100 to Watch: Barack Obama
State Senator, Illinois

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contenti d=251658&kaid=104&subid=210


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama On DLC Web Site4 (none / 0)

he was definitely one to watch.  but i don't see any indication that he joined (unlike edwards, who allowed his "membership" to be known far and wide).


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (none / 0)

Sigh....


by rapcetera on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

John Edwards is a member of the Democratic Leadership Council.  which kind of explains all those speeches and shared philosophy...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Framing (3.00 / 1)

"Personal Responsibility" linked to parenting in inner cities is more than a frame. It's a recognition that the welfare and affirmative action models in inner cities has run it's course and we need to turn to a new chapter in prying apart increasingly damaging policies conflating economic and racial disparities, to escape the permanance of an African American underclass.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Underclass (none / 0)

Dude, have you seen the portion of the underclass that's not African-American?

The idea that the majority of welfare recipients are African-American is sooo Reagan-era. There is a definite disparity in economic status for African-Americans based on centuries of discrimination, but the American problem of an economic underclass extends far beyond the African-American community and inner cities. Bad parenting is not tied to the color of someone's skin.

"Personal Responsibility" as it was exemplified by the Clinton-era reforms in welfare (the DLC and the Republicans like Tommy Thompson loved them, which should clue you in to just how good they actually were for people) helped to create a class of people who have to work multiple jobs in order to get by, without health care, in places they can't afford to live. In other words, it created the current situation. That's considered to be one of Clinton's big "wins". No health insurance plan. The rise of Wal-Mart and other big box stores. NAFTA. Man, the guy could just do no wrong.


by darrelplant on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 03:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

if you see "new" as something that is re-packaged from the 1990s (really, late 1980s), then you don't understand the term.  new politics doesn't mean dlc or triangulation in anyone's mind but your own.  i've never heard any voter put it in those terms...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (1.00 / 1)

actually, there are many people who have noted obama's use of triangulation, and this "new politics" does reek of the "new Democrat" everyone heard about in the 1990s.  as does all this rhetoric of "unity" and a "rise about partisanship."  or this odd notion of "finding bipartisan solutions without compromising our core principles."  again, it is what some call double speak and what others call triangulation.  


by truthteller2007 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:56:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

right.  you don't understand the meaning of change, i suppose.  if you're stuck in the 1990s, you're in good company -- seems that hillary is stuck there with you.  of course, i won't be saddled with your love of the past, or your inability to see the present, or your utter contempt for the future.  what you call new politics is only the old politics barack is calling us away from.  that would be the new "new politics," to you...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

truthteller is an Edwards supporter over on dkos known as pointecoupeedemocrat.  Check out the troll ratings.  Looks like she'd be gone by now but for a small bunch of Edwards' supporters keep rating her back up.  This poster causes havoc whereever she goes.


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

thanks for letting me know.  she's showing up elsewhere with trollish behavior, so at least i better understand now...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

Some people on dkos said they think she is also "Louisianagrrl" (I think that was the name) on MLW.  Louisianagrrl was banned.  Then she became pointe.....


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

Thanks for the heads up.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:23:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "New Politics" (none / 0)

But it's a meaningless term absent an accompaning example and refutation of a concurrence of his words and record of actions.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You need a definition (3.00 / 2)

Triangulation means selling out progressive values in order to make yourself look "above" the traditional politics of left and right. You adopt conservative ideas (kicking people off of welfare without setting up an adequate support system, expanding the number of crimes for which a death sentence can be issued) to innoculate yourself against the charge of being too liberal.

Barack Obama doesn't do that. He is a consistent advocate for progressive issues, and he's simply reframing the terms of the debate in a way that is favorable to his (and our) beliefs. This is exactly what we need after an 8-year Democratic Presidency where we made little progress on these beliefs and an 8-year GOP Presidency that was probably the most regressive Administration in the country's history.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'new politics' (1.00 / 5)

This 'new politics' is completely B.S. He is delusional. Obama seems to enjoy lecturing progressives, his democratic colleagues, and his fellow AA community more than fighting right wing meme.

Based on his supporters' rhetoric and hatred towards other candidate, it's hard to take his 'audity of hope' seriously.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'new politics' (2.00 / 2)

This nation is partisan. Obama is not. The difference between Obama Progressives and others is, though we also detest the Republican Party agenda with a passion, we do need someone with a clear mind who can unite the nation. We are drawn to Obamas non partisanship and open to change. We also acknowledge the truth. That unfortunately, not everyone with a D on their names , embraces our Progressive agenda nor do they act in the best interest of Progressives. We are not party loyalists to the degree where we blindly follow everyone with a D for the sake of doing so and we are willing to admit that as long as our nation is divided like it is, our Progressive agenda will not grow.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:25:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Very well said (none / 0)

Thank you.
by horizonr on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'new politics' (none / 0)

His 2004 convention speech was such a hit because he talked about bringing the American people together, not preaching partisan ship like the Clintons WHICH LEADS TO DIVISION IN THE COUNTRY.


by BDM on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What a load of crap (none / 0)

Sorry, the Clintons are not responsible for the division in the country. I don't support Hillary for president, but she is not responsible for the Rushes and the Hannitys of the world frothing at the mouth. Obama or any other Democrat will get the same treatment if elected president.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a load of crap (none / 0)

I believe the Clintons are, in part, responsible for the division in the country.

Adultery, last time I checked is not taken lightly by most Americans.  Unfortunately, Clinton got caught.  Most of us know that, while these things happen, lying to us was a huge mistake.

Also, one must wonder about Clinton's "judgement" when he knew the Republicans were looking for anything they could get on him and he served it to them in a silver platter.  I mean, seriously, the man has a problem.  Otherwise, couldn't he have waited until he was no longer President to resume his philandering?

I was pissed at him because I like his Presidency and he blew it.  He got the bj (not that bj's are a problem) but he's the one who did the deed.  He knew the wolfs were at the door.  WHAT an idiot.

And, most Americans think even worse of him than I do for other reasons.  He fixed it so that the Republicans would score close to us in the upcoming years as, what he did was a huge blow (no pun intended) to the Democratic party.

Sorry, when I see him all jolly faced up there campaigning for Hillary, I feel ashamed of him.


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'new politics' (none / 0)

Who was it that said "They need a divided country; we don't" at the 2004 convention?  Remind me.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 06:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'new politics' (none / 0)

Say what you want about Obama, but don't bring up the African American community unless you know what the hell you're talking about. Of course, to you, with a one-dimensional view of black people, anything that Obama says that doesn't square with the liberal orthodoxy on race reads like "lecturing" to you.

Our community needs to hear the message Obama brings to bear--and frankly, Obama's message resonates with most blacks, even if it's uncomfortable to hear at times.

The only people that would find anything objectionable with Obama's discussion of the ills on the black community are those people, like you, that would prefer to keep US ignorant and mired in pathology so that we can run to the government for help. Those days are coming to end. They must come to and end.

You're a clueless fool.


by bode78 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'new politics' (none / 0)

Maybe when you carry message that stands strong on it's own merits, fighting vapid 'meme's has less significance.

Maybe he should spend his time in rhetorical contention with the likes of Sean Hannity. What a waste of time. Elevating the dialogue means giving less attention to those in the rhetorical gutter. I'm happy to have a candidate maintaining himself obove the fray of beltway inanity.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

thankfully, hillary will never be elected president so we don't have to worry...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 2)

Whatever you say about the Clinton administration and Bill Clinton's obvious talents, in the end it failed to build a progressive majority, failed to make the case for a universal health care system, and, more fundamentally, failed to make a defense for the role of government in society.  In this way, Bill Clinton would not, could not, lay the groundwork for a fundamental change in American politics.  The Clintons have had their turn in the spotlight.

I agree with this in a lot of ways, although to be fair to Clinton, he wasn't a progressive and never claimed to be. He campaigned as a moderate "New Democrat", and that's what he was.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 07:26:33 AM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

I agree with you here.  Look at Harold Ford Jr.  New Democrat, DLC all the way to the bank.  DLC is moderate to conservative, period.  That is the divide here.  The party is moving is a different direction, more progressive.  That is the problem with Hillary Clinton.  That is the mantra she's from.  And if you think or even believe that she is going to pull troops out of Iraq, think again.  She has never said that all troops will be pulled out.  She want a presence there, and she never said she did not.  That is the stark difference between she and many democrats.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:40:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

Final nitpick for now:

This election is about who can best fulfill the above goals.  Obama will continue to lay out his proposals in detail --- Hillary Clinton, not Obama, is the only leading candidate without a universal health care plan

Not really true. Obama's healthcare plan is much better than the status quo, but it isn't universal.

I rec'd this because it's generally a good pro-candidate diary. You're probably the best Obama supporter on MyDD in terms of both style and substance.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 07:30:39 AM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

I agree here.  I like Edwards plan better, though it will cost more.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

You like Edwards plan better even though it will cost more? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The only differences between the two is that Obama will save Americans money ( that's the whole point) and it doesn't force people to take it if they don't want ( choice ) but it makes it mandatory for children to be covered , ( as Edwards pointed out two debates ago , because they can't make a choice) So, all in all, Obamas plan truly is superior than Edwards because it actually addresses the problem. ( COST )


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

If Obama's plan leaves the young and healthy out because they don't choose to be covered, it will be more expensive per person covered, not less. That's the point of mandating health coverage.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

Only problem is, it doesn't leave the young and Healthy out, it mandates coverage for ALL children.


by rapcetera on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Young and health in Clark's post (none / 0)

doesnt refer to children.


by okamichan13 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

I mean people 18-30 who don't have much of a history  of illness.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

I am one of those and I support CHOICE. You are not going to force me to pay for something if I cannot afford it or don't want it. Making it "MANDATORY' won't change that. In California, Car Insurance is mandatory and still, over 25 % of the people who own cars have NO insurance. So, it doesn't matter if it's mandatory or not.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 02:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An Interesting Argument (none / 0)

Is the lesson from California, then, that car insurance should NOT be mandatory?  

Then, assuming your figure of 25% is accurate (I have not googled it), making it optional would probably mean that 50% of the people in California would chose to "chance it" and not have insurance.  Which is the better system?

From what I have read, the experiences in Maine (optional) and Massachusetts (mandatory) with health care coverage suggest that making it explicitly optional means you are guaranteed of NOT having universal health care.  Making it mandatory does not guarantee that you will get there, but it takes you closer to universal than the optional approach.  And that comports with common sense on this issue doesn't it?

For you personally, if you cannot afford health insurance, then the state should subsidize it or make it free.  Keep in mind, though, that all insurance systems (or universal health care systems) are cost sharing systems.  Free riders who can afford to pay a little for coverage are...uh...free riders.  

And yes, it is nice to be a free rider I suppose, but not entirely fair to all the others.  Sorry guys I got cancer at 25...without paying for any coverage for the last 7 years...can you pay for my millions of dollars of treatment anyway?  


by Demo37 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Argument (none / 0)

If it's mandatory it's equivelent to a tax and should be progressive. Lower income people would 'choose' less advanced and less comprehensive health care in line with their budgets but health care facilities universally meet the damands of those able and willing to pay for premium service, thus denying a segment of the population service at all.

Either health care costs will be shouldered progressively, being universal or the quality of care and investment in research will decline.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Argument (none / 0)

The Edwards plan is progressive in how people pay for it, not in how it's administered. Lower income people would be completely subsidized, and middle income people would be partially subsidized.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 05:21:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Argument (3.00 / 1)

The point I think is just that the only truly universal health care plan is single-payer with automatic enrollment.
Edwards can no better claim his plan is "truly" universal than Obama can.
What they are trying to do, what they actually mean, is that they want health care to be universally available and affordable.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 05:00:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

No one has a truly universal plan of the big candidates though... Edwards is probably closest, but it still isn't universal.  Maybe Sicko will piss off enough people to get some change rolling.


by yitbos96bb on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

Edwards plan is universal, but it's not single-payer.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

is obama's plan is not universal (3.00 / 1)

neither is Edwards'.

Both promise universal coverage by the end of their first terms, but both will face issues covering all people regardless of whether coverage is mandated.


by dpg220 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

I think he's pointing out that it's pretty difficult to ensure people are on a plan in a multi-payer environment without automatic enrollment.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

We may have had this convo already, but I like Obama's becuase I think adults have the right to turn down health care coverage for religious reasons- and do no think we should pay the extra money to give people coverage they will never use.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

edwards' plan is not universal either then (3.00 / 2)

the idea that Obama's plan is not univerdal and that Edwards' is is just false.

As Obama explained in the debate, even if you mandate coverage many people will not pick a plan because they cannot afford it. Just like car insurance, making it madatory does not make itr universal. Even if Edwards passes his plan, he will need to figure out how to cover the millions of aemricans who ignore the mandate.

Obama's plan does not mandate coverage but it increases access such that it would cover as many people as edwards' plan does because those who can afford it will opt-in. Obama has also said that if people choose not to opt-in he will alter than plan to cover the remaining uninsured. unless edwards does the same, his plan too is not universal.


by dpg220 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Obama plan is not universal (none / 0)

even Obama admits that it is not intended to be universal. Edwards plan is. Its as simple as that. Edwards plan includes cost-reducing mechanisms (a mandate is one of those) and access mechanisms and those who still cannot afford to pay the cost themselves will be covered


by okamichan13 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: edwards' plan is not universal either then (none / 0)

As Obama explained in the debate, even if you mandate coverage many people will not pick a plan because they cannot afford it.

This isn't really an issue. Edwards' plan includes subsidies for even middle-income families.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Universal" Health Care (3.00 / 2)

Obama has stated that his ideal health care system might be single-payer but that given the situation it's not a realistic goal, it would be a gigantic transition to pull off, etc.  He's trying to come up with a health care plan that's realistic but goes far enough to implement basic goals.
The biggest disagreement between Obama and Edwards    is about an individual mandate.  Obama thinks that you best move towards universal coverage by focusing on universal availability, controlling costs, and subsidizing low income folks.  In other words, you make health care universal by making it affordable, focusing on removing hurdles and on creating mechanisms that allow everyone to buy in, instead of making everyone buy in.
What people really mean when they talk about universal health care is making it universally available and affordable.
He does have an employer mandate for companies with more than 15 employees and a mandate for children to be covered.
Obama has also said that he is open to then implementing an individual mandate if there were still significant gaps in coverage.  
That's his position.  I'm not sure.  
I think this problem is a lot more nuanced than people are giving it credit for.  There are all kinds of tricky situations with people who are hard to insure: seasonal workers, homeless people, temporary unemployment, recent students on the job search, people with pre-conditions, etc.
Massachusetts is really in the grind right now of implementing its mandate on health care: coming up with a regulatory apparatus for tracking down people who haven't bought in, figuring out how to deal with young people who still haven't bought insurance because they don't think they'll ever get sick, or how to reach people that aren't paying attention and miss the deadlines.  
It'll be interesting to see how it works out.  This is new stuff.  
An unemployed, recent-college-grad friend of mine in Mass is now going to have to pay $150 a month that she can't afford while she looks for a job.  I'm sympathetic to the idea that you make it as affordable as possible while allowing flexibility for periods when it's just not affordable for someone.  There are people wouldn't qualify for federal assistance but who go through periods of not being able to afford coverage.
I don't know.  This is something my friends and I have been talking about a lot lately.  There are a lot of arguments for and against.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Universal" Health Care (none / 0)

The Edwards plan is NOT the Mass. plan. He has a government plan that anyone can buy into in direct competition with regulated private plans.

It's also not in direct opposition with the Obama plan the way you make it seem. The Edwards plan has subsidies for low-income folks, and it has measures aimed at cost containment, as well. A plan without a universal mandate is not universal, period.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Universal" Health Care (3.00 / 2)

I didn't mean to imply either of those things.  I just wanted to hold up Massachusetts as an example of a state now trying to work out an individual mandate.
And the part about subsidies was just an example of what Obama has in the plan.  Of course others are working with similar tools.
I think Max Fletcher has it right in his post higher up: It is basically impossible to have a truly universal plan unless you have single payer with automatic enrollment --- otherwise you're just talking about making it as easy and affordable as possible.  You're always going to have people falling through the cracks (with examples I mentioned above).
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Universal" Health Care (none / 0)

I just wanted to hold up Massachusetts as an example of a state now trying to work out an individual mandate.

Except that it's much different than the plan that Edwards is proposing.

You're always going to have people falling through the cracks (with examples I mentioned above).

Huh? Better cracks than holes, I'd say. And a mandate IS a cost-containment feature - you get more people paying in and using preventative care.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 01:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Universal" Health Care (3.00 / 2)

I believe Obama also designed his plan with this in mind :- will it pass congress?

He's thinking ahead in the sense that, okay, everyone can come with a near-universal or universal plan, but is it passable? (hillary discoverd this the hard way in the 90's) will the political will/consenses be there to pass it?

His plan creates an environment that can foster universal health care, not as socialized as Edwards is, hence giving it more potential to pass congress than Edwards....


by rapcetera on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

Excellent piece, really clear well done and very true.


by jazzyjay on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:17:01 AM EST

Excellent job psericks. (3.00 / 1)

We love having you on the mydd Obama team.  Well done.

Everyone please rec.  This needs to hit the top.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 09:40:39 AM EST

Really? (2.00 / 0)

...the mydd Obama team...

There's a team? Do you have uniforms? Who sent you? Do you coordinate talking points?


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sarcasm at its finest. (none / 0)

Hi to you to.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sarcasm at its finest. (3.00 / 0)

Love the enthusiasm, but lets not use words like Obama MyDD team... supporters, etc. sure, but team?


by yitbos96bb on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Team? (3.00 / 1)

Does not always mean like in a competitive sport.

Your interpretation:

a number of persons forming one of the sides in a game or contest:  a football team.

My interpretation:

a number of persons associated in some joint action: a team of advisers.

I am not implying that we are competing in a contest.  However, psericks is a strong Obama supporter, at least he has said so in the past, and I believe he will continue to write informative articles promoting Obama's candidacy hence the word team.  I think of it as a group of individuals at MyDD that work to spread info about Obama's campaign and work to uncover mistruths.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Team? (3.00 / 1)

Its makes it seem like a strongly organized effort and comes off as used car salesmanish.  If the Edwards or Clinton supporters used the words Clinton MyDD team, you be razzing them for quite a while.  


by yitbos96bb on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Team? (none / 0)

But there's already an Edwards MyDD team.

LOL


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Team? (none / 0)

It goes further than that. Individuals commenting on this site have made insistent claims that supporters of one candidate are here and post comments at the direction of that candidate's campaign.

I thought the "slip" in language of the original comment was too good to pass up.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (none / 0)

No, just a daily mind meld over coffee.  We're telepathic, didn't you know...?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 0)

Good job.  A good diary that is not fawning over the candidate but factual information.  Recommended.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:50:54 AM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 0)

Great diary, Psericks, really well done.  The discussion immediately following reminds me of the on-the-money quote you pulled out of the book, which is so true of so many of the discussions here.  To paraphrase it, rework it slightly:

I sometimes feel as if I am watching the psychodrama of the baby boom generation -- a tale rooted in old grudges and revenge plots hatched on a handful of college campuses long ago -- played out on the MyDD stage.


by DD2 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:38:16 AM EST

Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 3)

Obama's observation in The Audacity of Hope

In the back and forth between Clinton and Gingrich, and in the elections of 2000 and 2004,
I sometimes felt as if I were watching the psychodrama of the baby boom generation -- a tale
rooted in old grudges and revenge plots hatched on a handful of college campuses long ago --
played out on the national stage.

is a fitting prelude to set of questions that I posted yesterday in response to "Obama's Next Act."

For those who are skeptical of Obama's specific critique of partisanship:

* Do you really believe that bitter partisanship began in January 2001?

* Do you really doubt that bitter partisanship has been the M.O. of both parties, at least since Reagan?

* Do you really believe that bitter partisanship is not a crippling problem?

* Do you really believe that we live in an either/or world in which the only alternative to
bitter partisanship is meaningless bipartisan compromise?

* How about a progressive majority consensus? If you agree that this is the ideal, do you really
believe that a Democratic president can forge a progressive majority consensus without the help of
reasonable independents and Republicans?

* If this is the political reality, why shouldn't a Democratic candidate for president be telling Democratic
voters the truth about this reality and seeking to persuade voters that he, in Obama's case, is the one who
best understands this reality and has the leadership skills to use this reality to govern the country according
to progressive ideals?


by horizonr on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:55:59 AM EST

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 0)

There was a popular phrase in the late 60's, early 70's which actually became almost a slogan for the generation which defined the political dialog quite well:

Up against the wall, Motherfucker.

It meant showing yourself as either left or right, and presumed you to be a motherfucker if you hadn't clearly defined yourself in their terms.  We see this sentiment lingering here every day.  It disallows nuances, it dehumanizes people into simply ideological constructs, and I think it is largely responsible for going from a period where the anti-War movement was the majority of the country, or certainly the majority of our generation, to the era of Reagan, Newt and the Bushes with a centrist Democrat President wedged in between.  So excuse me if I refuse to continue to cling to that failed political slogan.


by DD2 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (none / 0)

* Do you really believe that bitter partisanship began in January 2001?

* Do you really doubt that bitter partisanship has been the M.O. of both parties, at least since Reagan?

No, bitter partisanship started before the Republic did. Thomas Jefferson was called worse than Bill Clinton ever was. A senator got cane-whipped on the floor of the US Senate while he was sitting in his chair in the 19th century. Obama's not going to change the American political culture by standing up and saying "I will be beyond partisanship."

* Do you really believe that bitter partisanship is not a crippling problem?

I dunno - a lot of good things were accomplished by partisanship. The New Deal couldn't have been done without it, for example.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (2.75 / 4)

Obviously, the human dynamic is at work in all politics. But we have to deal with the specific political culture
in which we find ourselves. That political culture -- the one within which this campaign and election are actually
taking place -- is the one created by those who came of political age in the 1960s and who started coming to
political power during the Reagan era.

That's what Obama is talking about -- and it's the crux of my second question.

Obama's harshest critics here write as though the political dynamic that has emerged under Bush is a closed
system, completely new and self-contained, rather than an escalation of what was already going on.

They resent Obama's critique of partisanship, because -- or so it seems -- they believe that the only problems
that exist are the ones created by Bush, Cheney, and the Republicans, and that, since everything is their fault,
the only solution is to rout the Republicans and put them under Democratic feet.

Certainly, this is not the lesson anyone could draw from the 2006 mid terms. Indeed, Obama is saying that
the problem is much more basic -- that if we change who sits in the big chairs without changing the political
operating system, real progress will continue to elude us.

Obama is calling on Democrats to reject easy answers; to dig deeper; to pay attention to history; to make
connections; and to see that there is something more important even than beating the Republicans.

Obama is calling on us to understand that George Bush's victory in 2000 was itself a warning sign that
the party-as-ideology way of doing business has outlived its usefulness.

This is what Obama means by change. And it is in this context that one must interpret Hillary Clinton's
1990s nostalgia trip of late as meaning that she herself is not "ready for change" at all and that she is,
for that very reason, not "ready to lead."


by horizonr on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 02:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (none / 0)

"since everything is their fault,
the only solution is to rout the Republicans and put them under Democratic feet."

But this is what the people want. You shouldn't deny people the opportunity to vanquish their enemies. It's only fair. Even if there is no constructive result, at least  we've gotten sweet revenge.

Obama is too good for these people, so they deserve whatever they get.


by bode78 on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (none / 0)

Obama's harshest critics here write as though the political dynamic that has emerged under Bush is a closed
system, completely new and self-contained, rather than an escalation of what was already going on.

They resent Obama's critique of partisanship, because -- or so it seems -- they believe that the only problems
that exist are the ones created by Bush, Cheney, and the Republicans, and that, since everything is their fault,
the only solution is to rout the Republicans and put them under Democratic feet.

Er, I am critical of Obama precisely because I believe that the problems ARE NOT new, that for example, we don't have universal health care in this country because powerful special interests oppose it, not because we couldn't get along well enough to agree on a plan. It's bigger than Bush and Cheney. There is a conservative movement that is well-funded and well organized, and they have fought for decades against virtually every progressive ideal, from Social Security to environmental regulation. Every step you take to meet them and shake their hand, they grab on tight to pull you ten steps further.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 05:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 1)

That quote really irks me. Once again, Obama is more than happy to place equal blame on the Democratic Party president as he is on Newt **ing Gingrich!

Gingrich in his heyday may been the most arrogant partisan hack in the country. It is just factually inaccurate to equate Clinton and Gingrich and it pisses me off that a Democratic candidate is peddling that malarky.

Oh, and by the way, Gingrich and his crowd got tossed out on their ears when they pushed their partisanship too far and shut down the federal government.


by hwc on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 12:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (none / 0)

That's not as question as much as it is just an expressed concern. I would say that Obama does bring Democrats together on the issues, it's just that he does so with such open and welcoming arms, heavy partisan Democrats who have a strict "No Re-thugs Allowed" Policy misunderstand him and in doing so, suspect him of sliding to the center. He has never done so and never will, but strict partisans in our party don't realize that he's drawing Republicans TO us and not the other way around. Obama summed it up at the last debate with this one statement:

"If they don't want to join us, we will just have to beat them which is what we are going to do in 2008" ~ Barack Obama


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 02:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (2.33 / 3)

i don't see that at all.  seems to me that he's saying there's some generational divide that not everyone understands.  i agree.  it fascinates me and frustrates me that we are reliving the struggle over the vietnam war again.  we shouldn't be in the middle of civil wars, and it's even more stupid to overlay some ideological struggle on one.  but, hell, parts of the country can't move beyond that so we are stuck in our own hellish version of groundhog day.

but i'd also question the whole context of blame.  it seems to me that the focus on blame feeds the psychodrama that obama is trying to transcend.  was libby wrong for lying to the courts?  yes.  was clinton?  yes.  it's not a matter of equivalency, it's a matter of purpose.  if you like playing the gotcha game -- and a lot of people do -- then getting stuck on the blame game certainly perpetuates it.  but if you actually want to accomplish something, and accomplish something that will take on some permanency long after you've left office, then blame isn't so useful.  we've had 15 years (or more) of the blame culture.  we've left a lot of problems unsolved feeding that frenzy.

someone's going to have to do some heavy lifting, even if they don't get your support...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 2)

A number of thin-skinned Democrats are taking Obama's critique of partisanship way too personally. Obama
is not blaming Democrats. He's blaming the system that Democrats and Republicans and independents and
others have inherited.

This presents a challenge for any Democrat whose ears are tuned to hear only those Democratic candidates
who reflexively say "we're right, they're wrong."

Obama actually thinks before he speaks. Imagine that.


by horizonr on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 1)

i'm all for the base strategy, if conditions allow.

the problem with pursuing the base strategy with democrats is that democrats are more diverse, ideologically and otherwise, which is only one reason why discipline is so loose.  so democrats have a structural obstacle to overcome before they can act as united as republicans.  that's the sacrifice you make when you're the big tent party.

the other thing to understand is that the base strategy is a strategic defensive thing.  you can't assume this position if you're trying to move the country forward.  it's a natural position for hillary and her supporters because she's not trying to accomplish anything.  her becoming president is the accomplishment.

what i'd like to see is for democrats to become more united, and divisive figures (like hillary) or blame pessimists (like edwards) can't do that...


peace. love. equality. still waiting after 40 years...
by bored now on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 03:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (3.00 / 2)

It should be obvious to everyone that the strongest, most confident vision of Democratic ideals will come from
the Democrat who wastes no time reaching out to independents and Republicans -- not out of political necessity
but because he knows he has the ideas the country needs and is ready to start leading the country toward them
today.

Why should Democrats accept anything less from their standard-bearer?

Does any candidate require a rally attendee to check her/his party credentials at the gate? Does any candidate forum
require that from its participants? Does any television/radio network or Web site require that before you watch or listen
or log in?

Of course not. When a candidate speaks, everybody hears. The message is already getting out there. Why squander every
opportunity and every audience from now until next June, by telling them: "If you're not a registered Democrat, close your
ears now and tune in next summer"?

Isn't spending the next year preaching to the choir what they think they already know just another way of hunkering down?
Doesn't the revival crusade always start today?

Who's the boldest preacher, anyway -- the one who takes the gospel into the streets or the one who speaks only when the
believers show up to church every Sunday?

Which would you rather have, Billy Graham or the parish priest?


by horizonr on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 05:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions for Obama's Critics (none / 0)

Well, do you think the 22% of the population who voted for Bush but have since recognized his failure should be pushed away in squabbles or lead to understand the failure.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:52:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

now Bush and Clinton are going back and forth about who's pardons were worse, ofcourse this Libby thing was by far worse than any of the Clinton pardons but agian isn't it time for a change for the tit-fot-tat of the whole thing so even if Hillary is barely elected then we get Jeb in waiitng as the inevitable 2012 nominee as 48% will hate Hillary no matter what....enough already.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 04:03:40 PM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

And, who do you think is going to win that back and forth? The Republicans or the Home Team.

The country is 60% to 70% opposed to freeing Scooter Libby.

The goal in a Presidential race is to talk about all the dumb things your opponent does.


by hwc on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 06:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

People are wack if they're going to vote for Hillary.  She's already in the middle of a battle with the opposite side; a silly one at that.

I'm not saying she caused it.  What I am saying is that Mrs. Clinton brings too much baggage.  Her "change" theme ain't gonna happen because it's going to take the first 6 years to unruffle the already ruffled feathers of her husband's presidency.  No thanks.


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (3.00 / 1)

If she can't get along with her OWN party, how is she going to unite the nation? Clinton is a polarizing figure within the Democratic Party. There's no way in hell she will be able to win the general. Her supporters are not helping to win over anyone. The only positive thing that has taken place as a result of the troll invasion here, is that for once, in a long while, Obama and Edwards supporters are getting along as we are galvanized to express our opposition to Clinton's candidacy.

LOL.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

Just winging in here but this (Diary intro) seems a little revisionist in terms of why Kerry lost.   He lost because he was beautifully framed as a flip flopper and because we were still a scaredy cat nation not ready to buck the Commander in Chief.

That Kerry didn't have a re-framed view of a progressive America may not have helped, but I don't think it is the building block of any history based lesson on why any one candidate can do in 2008 what we couldn't in 2004.

If anything I would equate Obama running on a "new politics" as the appeal of GWB in 2000.   Bush was able to cast himself as new, while at the smae time keeping most of the base.   Obama seems to be trying to do the same thing but is America looking for the same tonic they were in 2000.


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:15:35 PM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

I don't disagree with you about Kerry, but I think he was set up for losing an election on national security by not having a compelling way of talking about health care and poverty (where Americans show in poll after poll they prefer Democrats) --- and I would ultimately argue that this was much more critical.
By slipping into the character debate with an incumbent Republican president, he lost the issues that would have put him over the top.
I just think that this inability to express a clear and compelling vision about health care or poverty is what does Democrats in --- and there are certain innovators who have been finding news ways to do it: like Tom Vilsack or Obama.
As for Bush in 2000, there's a world of difference.  Obama sells non-partisanship as a way of making progress on progressive issues --- a new politics based on ensuring a decent education for every child, on the recognition that we are all in this together, etc. --- that's his rhetoric.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 04:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

Excellent diary and capture of Obama psericks.

Remember Hillary scolding Kerry for not wanting to re cant the 2004 election, after his 'dummies get to go to Iraq' guffaw.

We need to send a memo to Hillary that we neither want to re cant the Clinton/Gingrich Revolution "boomer psychodrama" that lead us here.

I love that phrase.


by fisheye on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:58:37 AM EST

Re: Obama Responds to Bill Clinton on Experience (none / 0)

Obama is something of an enigma.  We like him, yet we do not know why.  We fear him, yet we do not know why.  If we are courageous, we will nominate him.  I like Hillary, so I do not know if I am courageous yet.


by Todd Bennett on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 11:25:48 AM EST


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