A REAL Policy Dispute: Should we increase the military?

With all the recent discussion on foreign policy, I thought it would be good to focus some on an issue that hasn't got much attention lately - Bush's push, joined by some Democrats to increase the number of our active military. Which isn't surprising from Bush of course, but it is suprising that Democrats are joining in, including some of our presidential candidates also promising to end the war in Iraq.

If we are committed to ending the war, what the hell do we need more troops for? Increasing our military without a legitimate purpose doesn't help us and sends the wrong message to the rest of the world. Fortunately among our presidential candidates there is at least one who isn't buying the Bush/ Pentagon propaganda.

This is a lengthy diary, so grab a cup of Jo and read on

Bush has vowed to increase our military
When Bush first started to talk about increasing the size of the US Military he did it it in the context of Iraq, linking it to the idea of the surge - otherwise known as the "McCain Doctrine":

George Bush says he wants to increase the size of the US military - currently the second largest in the world - to allow America to take on a "long struggle against radicals and extremists".

Speaking at an end-of-year press conference, Mr Bush said he was "inclined to believe" a permanent increase in the size of US forces was necessary. Previously he indicated he wished to boost the Army and Marine Corps.

On the option of sending more troops to Iraq in the short term, he said: "I haven't made up my mind yet about more troops. We're looking at all options, and one of those options, of course, is increasing more troops, but in order to do so there must be a specific mission that can be accomplished."

Of course King George made up his mind pretty quick; the escalation in Iraq happened despite overwhelming public disapproval and little real Congressional opposition. And now it seems doubtful that the so-called surge will end until Bush is out of office. So much for that "specific mission". And Bush's plans to increase the miltary have continued as well - even with the recognition that this troops won't be ready for Iraq and even after abandoning the Pentagon's policy on length of service for reservists.

The Pentagon also announced it is proposing to Congress that the size of the Army be increased by 65,000, to 547,000 and that the Marine Corps, the smallest of the services, grow by 27,000, to 202,000, over the next five years. No cost estimate was provided, but officials said it would be at least several billion dollars.

So Bush wants to add 92,000 troops. Is that a good thing? Well abstractly it might be as long as we avoid asking why. There are some real problems and a lot of people are wondering what these troops will be used for:

From the Boston Globe:

Despite broad political support for President Bush's plan to expand US ground forces by 92,000 troops, a growing number of military strategists and defense specialists are questioning the need for so many more conventional combat forces.

They say the additional troops will not be available in time to relieve the strain on the Army and Marines from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there has been virtually no discussion in Washington on the purpose for the largest military expansion since the end of the Cold War.

The specialists, who represent a diverse set of viewpoints, fundamentally question whether maintaining a larger standing military -- 547,000 active-duty Army soldiers and 202,000 Marines once the new troops are added -- is the most effective way to fight smaller but lethally innovative groups of Islamic terrorists and other less traditional security threats.

"The global war on terrorism and Iraq are being used as lame rationales for enlarging the military", said retired Lieutenant Colonel Frank Hoffman, a researcher at the Marine Corps Center for Emerging Threats and Opportunities in Quantico, Va. "Unless you think we will have more than six brigades in Iraq in 2012, I don't see how this is relevant."

Even the Washington Post weighed in as well:

This proposal is a bad idea. It is irrelevant to the stresses the Army is experiencing in Iraq. It would build enormous long-term costs into the defense budget, and it presumes a role in the world for the U.S. military that the voters emphatically opposed in November.

And of course as the Globe mentions this all comes with a price tag - spending more money we don't have while we keep giving tax breaks to the richest 1% of Americans who don't need them. More debt on the backs of America's working poor and middle class:

Nonetheless, the president's call to increase the Army and Marine Corps by nearly 15 percent over the next five years -- at an initial cost of nearly $100 billion and at least $15 billion per year thereafter -- has received nearly universal support in a Congress dominated by Democrats.

Say it ain't so! Unfortunately its sad but true; Democrats have been lining up to agree with Bush. Can't be seen as weak, the horror! But more on that below. The Post goes into more detail on why this is such a bad idea - no mission. Its certainly not Iraq:

First, deciding to add to the Army today would do nothing to deal with the stress of Iraq. The hype about our Army is true: Our troops are the world's best. And it takes time to make them so. The lag time for recruitment, training and deployment means that new forces would be available far too late to ease the stresses now facing the Army in Iraq. Even on a fast track, it might be as long as five years before an additional combat-ready brigade would be ready to deploy there

So what is their mission and when are we going to talk about it? The Post continues:

If this is about invading Iran, or carrying out a land war in China, as The Post has suggested, then maybe we need to have a national debate about that strategy, not slip it in sideways by expanding the Army without agreeing on the mission. The experience of Iraq has clearly dulled America's appetite for continuing in the role of designated global occupier and nation-builder.

I guess the Post doesn't want seconds on that meal. The Post also points out one of the big lessons of Iraq that Bush and many in Congress, including even many who voted agaisnt the war, still don't seem to get:

Terrorism is not a political movement so much as a logical weapon of choice for political extremists facing a superpower. There will always be a military component to meeting this threat. But as administration spokesmen have testified, the primary role in this "long war" may well belong not to the military but to the State Department, foreign assistance agencies, and the Treasury and Justice departments, supported by the appropriate application of force (usually in small numbers and with Special Forces troops, not Army brigades). The Army does not need to grow to perform this mission; it needs to refocus.

The question the new Congress must deal with is one not of enlarging the Army but of redefining the armed forces' mission in today's world. Do we want an Army big enough to invade and occupy Iran or Syria? Or do we want a tailored, restructured force designed to play its role in the pursuit of terrorist organizations (along with other tools of statecraft) and with enough heft to play a part in peacekeeping operations, deter potential adversaries and decisively win intense but brief conventional conflicts? This strategic alternative is hardly an endorsement of the "Rumsfeld doctrine." The U.S. military as currently sized can still "go heavy" when needed. What it can't do is remain indefinitely bogged down in a static mission with inadequate body armor and no strategy.

So what exactly do we need more troops for? Terrorism? Seems like we've already learned that more troops isn't the answer. Iraq? They won't get there in time, and we should be getting out, not putting more troops in. Iran or Syria? No thanks. Been there, done that. Or more precisely we haven't done that very well at all. For some unforseeable future need? That isn't a mission. This is just the kind of Orwellian thinking we need to move away from.

As Gordon Adams notes (who also co-authored the WaPo Op Ed):

The case for force expansion has not been made.  For some supporters, growing the ground forces smacks of seizing the moment because the Congress looks willing to spend the money, regardless of the rationale.  For others, it looks like political safety - rather than tell the American public how we should engage the world and what the role of the military should be in that engagement, let's just grow the military and we'll look "tough on defense."
 

Where do our presidential candidates stand?
So given that Bush is asking for almost 100,000 more troops that its very unclear we need or even what they would be used for, and given the Pentagon's questionable recruiting tactics (see here, here, here, and here) and obvious disinterest among Americans to join or even stay, where do our presidential candidates stand?

With all of the discussion on foreign policy lately and attempts to show how Democrats are making the case for a new direction, we would expect a wholesale rejection of a costly expansion without a purpose, but unfortunately that's not the case, at least not among two of the frontrunners.

It ain't a pretty picture folks:

What do Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, George Bush, Bill Richardson, and Gen. Pete Schoomaker, among others, have in common?  They all think the U.S. military is on the verge of breaking and the solution is to make it bigger.  Yet, none of them have told us why it should grow.  Every one of them has put the expansion cart ahead of the strategic horse.

Hillary Clinton wants more troops

The lastest info is that she is supporing Bush's increase in troops and making it her own. According to The Hill, she is joining Lieberman and others in calling for more troops:

A team of Senate and House Democrats today are planning to introduce legislation today aimed at significantly increasing size of  the U.S. Army.

Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.), ranking member of the Senate Armed Services (SASC) airland subcommittee, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), a SASC member, and Reps. Ellen Tauscher (D-Calif.) and Mark Udall (D-Colo.), both members of the House Armed Services committee, are pressing for the passage of the United States Army Relief Act.

This is really a reintroduction of the United States Army Relief Act she introduced with Lieberman in 2005. As Senator Leiberman announced with a press release, with the strong support of the DLC's Third Way:

Today, I am pleased to join with Senators Hillary Clinton, and Jack Reed, and Representatives Ellen Tauscher and Mark Udall to introduce the United States Army Relief Act of 2005.

snip

What brings us together today is a shared conclusion that the United States Army is facing a crisis. It is not a crisis of quality, bravery or commitment. The men and women in today's Army are as good as any who have ever worn the uniform.

The crisis is that there are not enough of them in today's army.

and why do Clinton and Lieberman want more troops you might ask? Well mainly to support Iraq, Afghanistan and the surge:

We believe that the current pace of troop deployments to Iraq requires too much of the men and women of our Army. Too many of them have been sent there too often and stayed too long and that has had an undesirable affect on their families, their communities, and the capacity of the Army to meet recruitment goals.

We believe that greater Army end strength will give our war fighting commanders in Afghanistan and Iraq the capability they need to surge the number of troops on the ground there if facts on the ground require that.

We are concerned that if other crises occur elsewhere in the world in the years ahead we won't have the appropriately sized Army trained and ready to go there to deal with these other crises.

Unfortunately as Wa Po pointed out these new troops won't help Iraq, Afghanistan or the "surge" unless Clinton, Leiberman, and the others are planning on being in Iraq a long long time. So maybe its for some future wars that we just don't know about yet? Beats me. And frigtens me.

Obama wants more troops
And while Obama has recently been trying to distinquish himself on foreign policy in regards to Clinton, he isn't any better on this. In fact he's much more explicit in Foreign Affairs:

We should expand our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to the army and 27,000 marines.

But he never really says convincingly why. And interestingly enough the numbers are exactly the same as what Bush, Gates and their Pentagon proxies have been asking for. Obama must have faith in what the Pentagon is preaching - do you? He does say this in the preceeding paragraph:

We must use this moment both to rebuild our military and to prepare it for the missions of the future. We must retain the capacity to swiftly defeat any conventional threat to our country and our vital interests. But we must also become better prepared to put boots on the ground in order to take on foes that fight asymmetrical and highly adaptive campaigns on a global scale.

But what does that mean given the fact that these troops are for a post-Iraq military? Why does rebuilding a breaking military have to equate to a troop increase? It doesn't make much sense and while he promises that the mission WILL be defined clearly:

As commander in chief, I would also use our armed forces wisely. When we send our men and women into harm's way, I will clearly define the mission, seek out the advice of our military commanders, objectively evaluate intelligence, and ensure that our troops have the resources and the support they need. I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened.

he doesn't say why they are needed NOW with a mission undefined, although whenver that mission does come he certainly won't hesitate to use them (unilaterally if necessary). We deserve a lot more than that. Ironically unlike Clinton, Obama has received quite a bit of criticism on this - including from a European perspective:

The US needs a bigger, better army - to use it

His whole text is about the use of military tools. He criticizes Bush for focusing too much on military solutions, but that's all he discusses. How to make the US military bigger, stronger, more effective, and how to use it all around the world.

Jerome a Paris also points out that conservatives are doing a happy neo-con jig over all this. And its a good example of what all this looks like around the world.

And right on cue, in the same Foreign Affairs journal, Mitt Romney agrees wholeheartedly with Obama:

First, we need to increase our investment in national defense. This means adding at least 100,000 troops and making a long-overdue investment in equipment, armament, weapons systems, and strategic defense.

Eerie isn't it?

And where does John Edwards stand?
John Edwards was once where Clinton, Obama, Romney and Bush are now. But unlike them, he thinks that the Commander in Chief should be asking some tough questions about why we need almost 100,000 new troops. Edwards doesn't see the reasoning in increasing troops and wants to make getting out of Iraq a priority instead. Especially since as WaPo mentions leaving Iraq already serves as an increase:

A program of troop reductions and phased redeployment from Iraq would in effect increase the size of the Army by relieving the force of a burdensome, costly and unproductive mission. There will be opportunities to retrain and reequip to redress the shortcomings in armor and tactics so neglected by the Rumsfeld Pentagon.

John Edwards laid out his take on this in a foreign policy speech before the Council on Foreign Relations. Edwards gets it - proposals to increase the military without an understanding of the reasons why is a political numbers game:

The problem of our force structure is not best dealt with by a numbers game. It is tempting for politicians to try and "out-bid" each other on the number of troops they would add. Some politicians have fallen right in line behind President Bush's recent proposal to add 92,000 troops between now and 2012, with little rationale given for exactly why we need this many troops -- particularly with a likely withdrawal from Iraq.

and he understands that this idea is just more of the same bait and hook, and certainly won't help with Iraq:

The numbers game only gets us into the same problems as the president's approach. We must be more thoughtful about what the troops will actually be used for. Any troops we add today would take a number of years to recruit and train, and so will not help us today in Iraq.

He recognizes that there MAY indeed be legitimate reasons for increasing our military:

We might need a substantial increase of troops in the Army, Marine Corps, and Special Forces for four reasons: to rebuild from Iraq; to bolster deterrence; to decrease our heavy reliance on Guard and Reserve members in military operations; and to deploy in Afghanistan and any other trouble spots that could develop.

But none of these reasons take into account our withdrawing from Iraq:

While such proposals are worth close examination, they do not take into account our withdrawal from Iraq -- which I believe must occur in about a year. We need to avoid throwing numbers around for political benefit and instead take a broader view. As president, I will carefully assess the post-Iraq threat environment and consult with military commanders to determine the exact number of troops we need and where.

In other words, he isn't just going to throw a number out there, see if it sticks, and hope we can develop a rationale for it later. Why is he going against the grain? Not sure, maybe because he is actually listening to honest advice or maybe he has a new direction for foreign policy. I don't really know. But I like it and I'm damn glad someone's saying it.

To learn more about Edwards' foreign policy: Video and text of CFR speech, Iraq, Iran, Global Poverty, Military, Homeland Security, Terrorism, Darfur and Uganda



Display:


If we are looking for differences (3.00 / 4)

this seems like a big one.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:02:03 PM EST

Re: If we are looking for differences (none / 0)

Indeed it is a big one.  It makes one wonder what those candidates think they need those extra troops for.


by MassEyesandEars on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't really know (3.00 / 2)

wish someone would ask them and wish they would give an honest answer.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how 'under the table' this critical issue is (none / 0)

We can blame the media, but the big blogs are part of the media now.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If we are looking for differences (3.00 / 4)

Even though I am a Clinton supporter, I am very pleased to see that we can have a substantive debate about issues that matter.  You've clearly done your research.  I was beginning to think that no one was able to write a diary supporting their candidate without being ugly about it.  I'm glad you proved me wrong.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:20:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks a lot (none / 0)

much appreciated.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for this (none / 0)

I believe we should increase the size of the military, but not by raising the budget! We ought to cut the D.O.D. budget by roughly 10% reallocating those funds to the Dept. of State... All D.O.D. bids should be made public and open to competition - and, where possible the gov't should self-produce goods- with new well-payed government employees.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:02:05 PM EST

Re: Thanks for this (none / 0)

But we ought to increase the size, because I do not believe we could fight a war with a nation the size of Iran today. While I am not advocating for war with Iran - if they were to attack Isreal or move into Iraq heavily... we need a fighting force, and right now we do not have that.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with CardBoard on both counts. nt (none / 0)


by bookgrl on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's always a hypothetical enemy (3.00 / 1)

right around the corner and if we look hard enough we'll find one. Read the Globe, WaPo articles.

The US already has the 2nd largest military in the world and spends the most per soldier than any of the next ten countries combined.

Unless you are planning on occupying more countries, we don't need bigger.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's always a hypothetical enemy (none / 0)

we don't need more expensive... but ask most any soldier and he will tell you we need a greater capacity to put boots on the ground. It isn't based in fear-mongering, but if we had more personel we could have awnsered the needs after the Tsunami and Katrina
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We did answer the call after the tsunami (3.00 / 1)

and had ships and personnel in the Indian Ocean on their way to hard-hit locations quickly. Our military didn't help out after Katrina because normally that would have been our National Guard who are mostly over in Iraq.

Let's think through this -- do we need a bigger military or a smarter use of the military we have? Just saying "bigger" doesn't make sense if we don't take into account why and how we'll use them.


by edgery on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also, if we get a military to have a ... (3.00 / 1)

... consuming, bloody and terrorist-producing occupation plus an invasion at the same time ...

... what happens when we have two consuming, bloody, terrorist-generating occupations going on, and the military isn't big enough for those two occupations plus an invasion as well.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what if we had 3, 4 occupations going and (none / 0)

needed troops to invade another country?


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We overthrow our goverment (none / 0)

because any president who fails so badly at diplomacy to let that happen doesnt deserve to lead.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 05:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's always a hypothetical enemy (none / 0)

do you really think we had to political will to put a large amount of soldiers on the ground after the tsunami?


zombies are coming
by leewesley on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's always a hypothetical enemy (none / 0)

not while we are in Iraq we didn't...but I think an Obama or Edwards administration would shift how we think of our military to being humanitarians and defenders.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with CardBoard on both counts. nt (none / 0)

I agree with book and card


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with CardBoard on both counts. nt (none / 0)

agree with both of you , larger army.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:08:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why? (3.00 / 1)

Why do you think we need a bigger military? If we draw down out of Iraq, why do we need even more soldiers? What do you plan for them?

These are the questions that need to be seriously asked - and only John Edwards is saying he will do that.


by edgery on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are missing the point (3.00 / 3)

we could defeat Iran in a conventional war by rebuilding our military without adding troops - just like we did in Iraq. It didn't help us after though because we had no real mission. Even George Bush Sr saw this in the first Gulf War. Troop numbers isn't the issue and isn't the answer.

And using some hypothetical situation (do you really think we should be occupying Iran?) to justify troops we shouldn't need avoids the real questions and ignores the lessons of Iraq.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:16:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are missing the point (none / 0)

I do not believe we could defeat the Iranian military today, while we are in Iraq... I do not believe our national gaurd troops should be sent for prolonged tours over seas, and we havn't even been able to do that in Iraq. Occasionally nation-building will be necessary in the future...maybe even after hard fought wars... we ought to have a capable military. Do you really think our military is up to the plausible challanges after their post-Iraq war performance? Since the 1940s the military was had a policy of maintaining the ability to fight 2.5 war (I do not know what a half a war is), but the military has had to lower the standard... An invasion of Iran would be UN based, and would require an occupation.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read through the diary (3.00 / 3)

troop increases now won't help Iraq and won't be deployable until after we are long gone from Iraq - which all Dem candidates have pledged to do.

You are making an argument for rebuilding not an argument for an increase. The single best thing we could do to rebuild our military is get out of Iraq.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read through the diary (none / 0)

I agree with that, but I aslo think that in 2001 our military was too small and too expensive... The Bushies 21st Military Ideas are designed to send money to d.o.d. contractors man power will be more important than 'small, light, and quick' in the coming years. Because the duties of the military have expanded beyond just engagement.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Regarding the UN (3.00 / 2)

thats a good point and certainly hope thats the case though if it was UN based, seems like there would be even less need for US troops. With so little US credibility, its almost impossible now to think of a situation where the UN would sanction an invasion.

and frankly there is so much we haven't even begun to try diplomatically with Iran. Increasing our military certainly won't be helpful in that process.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So we need a larger military in order ... (3.00 / 1)

... to engage in counter-productive occupations of nations after we invade them.

Because if we leave Iraq, the expanded military will not be required to fight country X "plus occupy Iraq". So the additional forces would be required to occupy country X after the invasion, and still leave the capacity to invade country Y.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are missing the point (none / 0)

I don't think we even need to talk about having a war with Iran.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for this (none / 0)

I have a better idea. Let's not go to war with Iran. They're not going to attack us. They can't attack us. Leave them alone.


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:51:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for this (3.00 / 1)

Increase the size of the military?

Half of our national budget goes into the military. That's more than enough -- way more than enough.

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

It's time to cut back. I say, cut military funding in half. Put that money into schools.


by Pope Jeremy on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for this (none / 0)

half is a bit much...but we do need to scale back.  I just think we ought to scale back in d.o.d. contractor costs and not in troops


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent analysis, okamachan13 (3.00 / 2)

Edwards is right here.  While the others fall over themeselves promising more guns and more soldiers, Edwards says, let's think about this.

This is a real dispute.


by TomP on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:14:51 PM EST

Re: Excellent analysis, okamachan13 (3.00 / 1)

Edwards is right!


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should we increase the military? (3.00 / 2)

I don't have an opinion about the proposed troop levels. However, it is clear that the occupation of Iraq has revealed some serious weaknesses in the concept of relying on National Guard and Reserve troops to sustain any military action.

The deployment rotations to Iraq have been a mess as we are forced to deploy troops and Guard units over and over and over.

I believe the thinking was that we didn't need as many Army and Marines because the Navy and Air Force could handle most situtations. The combo of Afghanistan and Iraq has shown that to not be the case.


by hwc on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:26:08 PM EST

I guess I'm rejecting the idea (3.00 / 2)

that Iraq failed just because we didn't have enough troops. We are learning that lesson right now.


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should we increase the military? (3.00 / 2)

The problem with the war in Iraq was the invasion in the first place.  Build a big army, and they will find a way to use it.  

We need a military for defense, not for empire building.


by TomP on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Guard and Reserves did a fine job ... (3.00 / 1)

... during the military action.

What this points to is not the military action:

... the occupation of Iraq has revealed some serious weaknesses in the concept of relying on National Guard and Reserve troops to sustain any military action

... it points to the police action that followed. The Guard and Reserve are certainly not suited for indefinite duty as imperial legionnaires ... the question I would raise, following on those raised by Edwards, is why would we wish to use them on indefinite duty as imperial legionnaires? Should we be acting as an Empire with legions posted indefinitely in trouble spots, or should we return to our days as a Republic?

After all, a WWII "total citizen war" type scenario, we would have been able to expand the number of troops in much less time than we have spent occupying Iraq.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Guard and Reserves did a fine job ... (3.00 / 1)

My comment was not intended to even address the performance of the Army, Marines, Guard, and Reserve in Iraq. To the best of my knowledge, the entire military has performed superbly.

My point about problems is that a sustained deployment of 100,000+ is breaking the military. Putting unacceptable strain on the men and women who serve. Leaving the country horribly exposed militarily. I read tonight that 70% of our armored vehicles are in Iraq. What would happen if, for example, North Korea invaded South Korea tomorrow and we needed to move some troops fast?

These are issues that exist without regard to the wisdom of occupying Iraq. A legitimate argument can be made that we simply do not have sufficient troop strength for any sustained military action.

For example, there are those who suggest a military intervention in the Sudan. With what? We're tapped out.


by hwc on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:17:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My point is precisely about the sustained part. (3.00 / 1)

My point about problems is that a sustained deployment of 100,000+ is breaking the military.

If a sustained deployment was in fact necessary, that would be the time to expand the military through an actual full-scale mobilization for war, as in World War II.

Of course, a larger deployment was required in Iraq than initially used in the invasion, given the reckless and ill-considered decision to invade ... but the sustained deployment has been counterproductive.

So is the purpose of increasing the size of the military now  to provide the means to engage in counterproductive occupations in some other country? Or if it is not to enable us to engage in counterproductive extended occupations, what is it for?

That is, why is it that we would wish to sustain a deployment of 100,000+, for a period of years, but under conditions that are not considered sufficiently serious to justify full-scale mobilization?

We certainly would not choose to have a repeat of the sustained deployment in Iraq if we had rational people at the helm forming a rational foreign policy.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A REAL Policy Dispute: (none / 0)

I'm all for getting out of Iraq but thoughts like "let's leave completely and then reduce our military" is to me ridiculous.  It's a dangerous world out there- we have more and more enemies and we need to be prepared if the worst happens and we get into a major conflict.  The rest of the world is just not "misunderstood" and we can placate them by being "nice"- we already look weak enough by not being able to handle Iraq- we can't afford to look even weaker- we need to expand our military and correct the problems that we've been having so we are prepared-


by reasonwarrior on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:08:02 PM EST

So tackle the policy question: (3.00 / 2)

t's a dangerous world out there- we have more and more enemies and we need to be prepared if the worst happens and we get into a major conflict.

How do we do that? If we remain in Iraq, that makes it a more dangerous world out there than would otherwise be the case ... why are we made more secure by preparing to have a military to permit us to pursue one occupation of a country like Iraq and also invade a country like Iraq?

Do we decide first to expand the size of the military, and then look at what role it will play? Or do we look at what role we need the military to play, and then look at what size it should be?

IOW, in determining the size of the military, should we ask questions first, as Edwards proposes, or should we expand the size of the military first and then ask questions later, as Clinton, Obama, Richardson appear to prefer.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So tackle the policy question: (none / 0)

I seriously doubt that Clinton has proposed a specific number without guidance from her many contacts at the Pentagon.

The reason we ended up with a small force is the belief that high tech weaponry could address all of our needs. That has proven to be the case in some situations (the initial invasion of Iraq), but not the case (sustained special forces and policing activities in Afghanistan and Iraq).

I don't, personally, know whether we need more troops or not. But, if the defense experts are saying we do, I certainly wouldn't reject that out of hand.


by hwc on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Rejecting it out of hand is not one ... (3.00 / 1)

... of the options that has been set forward.

And, yes, I understand that Clinton would have set this forward under advice ... but since she is proposing a smaller occupation force to remain in Iraq indefinitely (but, I suppose, not permanently), that goes into the "we need troops for overseas garrisons in war zones, plus troops available to invade places we may wish to" side of the policy debate.

What Clinton ought to be arguing, first, prior to arriving at the position of announcing support for the expansion of the size of the military, is the net benefit that we will gain from having those overseas garrisons in war zones.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rejecting it out of hand is not one ... (none / 0)

The proposed troop increases do not, necessarily, have anything to do with Iraq...except that we learned a lesson from Iraq. That is, that a sustained, multi-year ground presence puts undue strain on the men and women of are Army. We don't have enough troops to support a deployment of 100,000 without double and triple tours of duty.

Forget about Iraq. There are legitimate needs for that kind of capability. Suppose, for example, that radical fundamentialists seized control of Pakistan and nuked India.

Again, I'm not suggesting that I am a military planning expert. I'm not. I couldn't tell you an appropriate force level. I'm just saying that if the experts are suggesting we have a shortage of troops on active duty, I would not dismiss that expertise out of hand.


by hwc on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rejecting it out of hand is not one ... (3.00 / 1)

That is, that a sustained, multi-year ground presence puts undue strain on the men and women of are Army. We don't have enough troops to support a deployment of 100,000 without double and triple tours of duty.

Yes, but the current example is presuming that we will repeatedly try to go to war overseas on the cheap. With the withdrawal of forces from Iraq required to stop the ongoing damage to our national security caused by their presence in Iraq, the question then becomes, why do we need an ongoing capacity to support a deployment of 100,000.

Forget about Iraq. There are legitimate needs for that kind of capability. Suppose, for example, that radical fundamentialists seized control of Pakistan and nuked India.

I presume that this is some form of sick joke. We cannot control Iraq, a nation of less than 30m, in the middle of a civil war, but we will be able to control a nation of 160m on the Asian mainland with an extended occupation force, in the face of a united nationalist revolt against our occupation?

If we go to war against Pakistan, and intend to occupy it, on our own, we cannot do it except through full mobilization of our national resources. We cannot do it with a legionnaire system, even one capable of keeping a force of 100,000 in the field indefinitely ... rather, it would require a citizen army.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 06:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A REAL Policy Dispute: (none / 0)

We have 100,000 to 125,000 troops that would NOT be in the military because of criminal pasts. Because of the Iraq War, we've had to lower standards.

We need to increase the size of the military, but not through letting in criminals.


by rikyrah on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:17:57 PM EST

From where? (3.00 / 2)

I just put a few links in the diary on this towards the middle, but from where would they come?

check out the links above.

the military has been lowering its standards and even deceiving people precisely because people aren't joinging and aren't reenlisting.

just one example of misleading students, even telling them the war was over:

An ABC News undercover investigation showed Army recruiters telling students that the war in Iraq was over, in an effort to get them to enlist.

ABC News and New York affiliate WABC equipped students with hidden video cameras before they visited 10 Army recruitment offices in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.

"Nobody is going over to Iraq anymore?" one student asks a recruiter.

"No, we're bringing people back," he replies.

"We're not at war. War ended a long time ago," another recruiter says.

Pretty amazing stuff and it gets worse:

Yet ABC News found one recruiter who even claimed if you didn't like the Army, you could just quit.

"It's called a 'Failure to Adapt' discharge," the recruiter said. "It's an entry-level discharge so it won't affect anything on your record. It'll just be like it never happened."


by okamichan13 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For over six years, we've had a president (3.00 / 2)

who made decisions and then looked for the "facts" to back those decisions.  I like the idea of an Edwards presidency where he will ask questions, look at the facts, and THEN make decisions.


by edgery on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:36:47 PM EST

The Department of Offense is too big (3.00 / 1)


Back when Dubya flip-flopped from opposing a cabinet department for Tom Ridge to demanding one, there was some discussion what the damn thing should be called.  Alas, nobody seized the chance to do some truthful labelling:  call Ridge's (now Chertoff's) fiefdom the Department of Defense, and rename the agency that lives in the Pentagon the Department of Offense.

In plain English, "defense" means protecting your home turf.  Most nations around the world and throughout history have maintained armies on their own soil to protect the country from invasion.  The US, since just after World War II, has mainly followed the imperial model: "forward deployment" to protect our "interests".

There's something shameful about having interests that require us to dominate the world by force of arms, but let that pass.  We should at least have the decency to respect the tongue of Shakespeare, which some believe should be declared our "official" language.  We should at least obey Mark Twain's injunction to "call a spade a spade, instead of coldly symbolizing it as a snowshovel."  If we feel entitled to maintain a worldwide military, we should at least be honest and call it the Department of Offense.

Whatever we call it, it's too big.  Let's note, by the way, that nobody seems to propose we enlarge the Navy or the Air Force.  It's the Army and the Marines, the infantry in other words, that Serious People(TM) want to make bigger.  And the rationale is not that we need more troops at home.  The ground we supposedly need more boots on is not the continental US.

So, if you want the American public to ignore (or at least question) the Serious People(TM) about this notion that our military is "too small", a good starting point would be to call things by their proper names.  "Should we increase the size of the Department of Offense?"  That should be the question.

-- TP


by Rethymniotis on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:41:54 AM EST

A couple things to add (3.00 / 2)

won't have much time to respond to comments until this evening but a couple things came to mind - 2 questions:

Given all that has happened over the last 6-7 years, what message does increasing the US military send to the rest of the world, especially as we try to regain trust and moral stature (after Bush anyways)?

and second, questioning the rush to increase the US military leads to a more fundamental question, what role will the US military play in a democratic foreign policy?

I don't think saying we aren't much different than Bush, we are just bigger and a bit smarter is the answer. This administration has almost completely ignored other diplomatic tools; a lot more investment in that area before we start enlarging our military would be a step in the right direction.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 07:09:22 AM EST

Increasing the size of the military (3.00 / 2)

I see that some of the commenters here agree that we should acquire a bigger hammer, without realizing that it will cause us to go looking for more nails.

We didn't fail in Iraq because we didn't put enough troops in, or because we disbanded the Iraqi Army, or any of the thousands of mistakes we made. We failed in Iraq because it was a damn near impossible to task to transform a tyranny into a stable democracy through the sheer force of arms. We didn't see that because of the sheer excellence of our military.

The answer is not to go building a bigger and better military (simply repairing it can be done by withdrawing from Iraq). The answer is to stop attacking and occupying other countries.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 08:34:04 AM EST

Exactly (none / 0)

when we try to use the military to do things its not meant to do, we are bound to failure.

The military is a blunt instrument. It has its role, but rebuilding, policing and democratizing a country that has never known democracy, where we don't even have a clue about the dynamics involved, isn't it.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should we increase (3.00 / 1)

Thank you for a nice substantive diary abut a REAL issue.

I am opposed to any buildup of the military. We have enough troops to defend ourselves and that is enough.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:11:06 AM EST

Thank you (none / 0)

and appreciate it.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

cut the military budget by 1/3rd (3.00 / 1)

for a start, we need to cut the bloated milatary budget by 1/3rd.  We can do this and not reduce the number of troops - we just have to cut out the cold-war era technology, missle defense systems that don;t and never will work, and pork projects that our congresscirtters keep adding intot he budget even when the Pentagon doesn't want them.

We have close to 50 million uninsured people in this country, our education system is a disaster, 2 years on we can't seem to rebuild New orleans, we have no energy policy, and with a military budget the size fo the rest of the world combined, we're stil losing the 'war on terra'.

Let's put our tax money to better use.


Vote for a true progressive in November: Cynthia McKinney (GRN) for President!
by brooklyngreenie on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:55:24 AM EST

I actually agree (none / 0)

with Clinton and Obama. I was having an argument today wiht a friend about how the US should send troops to Darfur and stop genocide now. His only response with any merit was that the military was stretched thin and that we couldn't undertake such a mission with our armed forces suffering like they are. Although I don't adovcate increasing the DOD for the sake of having more troops, I do see how having more troops to undertake purely humanitarian missions when the rest of the world fails to act is both a good thing for humanity and for America's image worldwide. I will qualify my previous statements by saying that any new military direction (including increasing the number of troops) should be accompanied by increased benefits for soldiers, especially those returning to the homefront. I have a friend who spent june interviewing Iraqi war veterans and it's clear they're being left behind. Before we add more people to a failing system, we should make sure the military is designed to protect our soldiers in times of battle and help them when the return with relibale and effective healthcare, job training and placement services, and welfare programs to help get families back on their feet.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:18:40 AM EST

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

Sending US soldiers to Sudan is a terrible idea.


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by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

why?


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

Because after the invasion of Iraq, putting American troops in yet another Muslim country is a recipe for disaster. I might see the use in it if the Sudanese government and the rebels agreed to a cease fire AND to American troops as part of the enforcement mechanism. That's something we could handle if we would withdraw from Iraq.

In any case, we shouldn't add troops just so that we can invade another country, no matter how noble our intentions.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (3.00 / 1)

I agree. We can provide the overflights and the ground missiles if needed but the bulk of any military adventure in Sudan has to be derived from the United Nations. No fly zone no problemo. Shoot down offending aircraft, works for me. Logistics, cool. But no ground troops. We have too much fighting on the ground going on right now. More than enough.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

Agreed, but the UN can't do anything without China on board. It's also true that our military is stretched thin because of the debacle in Iraq, but I  think america should do all we can to stop the genocide there as soon as possible. In America, we talk boadly in terms of helping Africa, but our actions speak differently. Can you imagine if the genocide were happening in Europe? We'd be there tomorrow.

Also, a big difference between Iraq and Darfur is that the people in Darfur WANT us there and the people in Iraq didn't.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

Will putting American troops in Darfur stop a genocide? We don't seem to be doing too well on that front in Iraq.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

I do not support putting American ground troops in Sudan, except perhaps to man missile batteries and provide logistics.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

I am in complete agreement that we need to do something about the genocide yesterday. If China is going to be a problem at the UN we can go through NATO.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I actually agree (none / 0)

It seems the Europe is apathetic as well. Of course I'd love to have a Nato intervention over a unilateral American one, but at this point that seems impossible. My concern for the thousands of people dying daily is greater than my fear of unilateral action. Once again, I don't think you can equate this situation to Iraq. Our 'premise' for going into Iraq was ostensibly driven by national security concerns (without popular support within the country). It's completely different in Darfur. This would be a humanitarian intervention with broad popular support within Darfur.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But would it turn out that way? (none / 0)

there aren't many takebacks when you do the kind of intervention you are proposing. I doubt we understand the complexities of Sudan much better than we understood Iraq.

There's a lot of things we can do before US puts troops on the ground that we aren't doing now. Rushing in without a clear idea of how get out isn't a good idea.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 05:44:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But would it turn out that way? (none / 0)

True... we (policy-makers) should make sure that we understand the dynamics there much better than we did Iraq and also we should make sure that all options short of ground troops are exhausted. It just seems to me like there aren't many good options and the longer we wait the more people die. I also believe the difference in popular support on the ground is a fundamental difference between this case and iraq. I defintely don't believe we should repeat  the mistakes made in Iraq, but all options including  unilateral force should be on the table when it comes to this humanitarian crises.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 06:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A REAL Policy Dispute: Should we increase the (3.00 / 1)

Wow. This is the first diary that makes me seriously consider Edwards. For all his faults, this is a big deal to me.

Good diary.


by Pope Jeremy on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:38:03 AM EST

Thank you (3.00 / 1)

its a huge issue to me as well and a diary I've been wanting to write for a long time.

To me Edwards approach to this is the most responsible. With just about everyone else looking for an increase (I expected him to as well); this gives me a lot of encouragement on the importance he will give to diplomatic tools and reapproachment with the rest of the world.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 12:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

I know this is a broken record by now, but while Edwards' ideas that you present in this diary sound really great, I just have a hard time believing them. He was extremely stupid in 2002 about the war -- extremely stupid. How could someone who was so dumb now be so smart?

I dunno. I have a hard time wanting to throw a lot of weight behind Edwards. I wish I could believe in him, but I can't buy what he's selling right now, because the last time this country bought a car from him, it was a real lemon.


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well about the war he agrees with you (none / 0)

it was a mistake and I think thats one very honest reason why his position is the way it is. To me its about learning.

Whether you voted for Iraq or not, it has real lesssons and it seems to me that Edwards is learning them.


by okamichan13 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see a huge difference (none / 0)

1. They all say they want out of Iraq

2. Obama and Hillary say they want to increase the troop numbers (but not for Iraq as they wouldn't make it in time anyway). Obama called for the addition of "65,000 soldiers to the army and 27,000 marines."

3. Edwards says: "We might need a substantial increase of troops in the Army" but "We need to avoid throwing numbers around for political benefit" (no shit on the last part) and "as president, I will carefully assess the post-Iraq threat environment and consult with military commanders to determine the exact number of troops we need and where."

Conclusion: Okay fine, they all sound about the same to me, except Obama has already put out a number while Edwards says it's irresponsible to put out a number this early. Personally I don't see how we can properly compare the three candidates on this issue until they all put out the numbers of extra troops they plan to see recruited, what would get cut, and what the final price-tag would be.


by End game on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 12:37:07 PM EST

Re: I don't see a huge difference (none / 0)

Nice job of blurring.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 01:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I see it that's the opposite of what I did (none / 0)

We cannot debate the candidates' policies without the details so we are left to either debate theory (what should be done?), or whether announcing the desired extra troop numbers now (Obama's decision) or not (Edwards' decision) is the right way to go.

Personally I think our candidates should already have a good idea about the required and available troop levels (subject to updating once President of course) and just announce those numbers as the tentative plan like Obama did and why so that we can compare them.


by End game on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I see it that's the opposite of what I did (3.00 / 1)

Blurring is when you take two distinct positions and pretend they are very similar by leaving out the distinctions. Obama actually proposed a specific troop increase, while Edwards announced an inherent skepticism about any troop increase, of any size. That's a pretty major difference.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 02:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I see it that's the opposite of what I did (none / 0)

Hold on, I noted that very difference in my original post. However, I also noted that Edwards does acknowledge more troops may be necessary, he just feels it's irresponsible to say how many unless elected first and briefed by the Generals. But that's not a major difference between him and Obama IMO, in fact I suspect it's just politics on one or both sides.

The huge difference would be if they wanted to add significantly different numbers of troops to the Army, but all we know is that Obama wants 92,000 more and Edwards thinks we might need a "substantial increase of troops." For all we know Edwards may also want to another 92,000 but prefers to differentiate himself from Obama by not announcing this, which is why I said and stand by my original comment that I don't see a huge difference between the candidates and indeed suspect their differences are mostly politics based.


by End game on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I see it that's the opposite of what I did (none / 0)

No, you said that despite this apparent difference, there isn't really a difference. Edwards is not inclined to add troops to the military; he believes that removing forces from Iraq will do far more than any troop increase would. Obama disagrees.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I see it that's the opposite of what I did (none / 0)

Nobody disagrees about removing troops from Iraq, but that's not going to increase the Army, just shift troop locations. And every Dem candidate is promising to redeploy anyway, so there's no policy difference there.

And as to whether or not Edwards is inclined to add troops, well that remains to be seen because he won't tell us one way or the other. All he said was that it was irresponsible to suggest a number at this point (a dig at Obama I presume) and that he would later on (once Prez) carefully assess how many troops are needed and where (as if other candidates weren't going to carefully assess the same thing).

I guess I found the presentation slanted since Hillary's and Obama's policies are introduced with the headers: "Hillary Clinton wants more troops" and "Obama wants more troops", followed by some generally speaking negative material (Lieberman, etc) while Edwards is introduced with: "And where does John Edwards stand?" followed by an explanation about how he wants to redeploy from Iraq, which 1. won't change the size of the Army so it's irrelevant, and 2. which every Dem candidate has promised to do even though this was not discussed under their policies. The rest of Edwards' text is just digs at Obama's decision to aim for 92,000 more troops, while refusing to say how many (if any) Edwards would add.


by End game on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There are real differences (none / 0)

Edwards seems to understand best that we need to look at the issue of troop levels in terms of a post-Iraq foreign policy. That they don't even mention the effect of Iraq when urging an increase in troops is very telling to me. Neither Obama or Hillary give very cogent reasons why an increase in troops is necessary after Iraq. Withdrawing from Iraq doesn't increase the numbers, but it does certainly increase the military's capability to do other things. Which is the point. We need to focus more on what we need to do before build up the ability to do whatever it is.

As the diary quotes, there is no need to "put the expansion cart ahead of the strategic horse".

Regarding the Lieberman material, thats her decision to co-sponsor with him, show up at press releases with him, nothing to do with me. On this issue, their position is the same. It also shows clearly that her position for withdrawal is a very new thing. In 2005 she was wholeheartedly asking for more troops for a surge in Iraq as the language of the press release makes very clear.

The headers are there because I wanted to point out the distinctions. Its not just that Edwards might do it later and others want to do it now. Its that Edwards want it to be a reality based decision that fits into the role of a post-Iraq US diplomacy. Not an arbitrary number that Bush came up with.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A REAL Policy Dispute (3.00 / 2)

But we don't seem to be having a REAL policy discussion.  I am dead set against increasing the size of the military.  We do not need an increase of the standing army.  We actually need to decrease the size of the standing army.  At the same time we need to increase the size of the Reserves, National Guard and Coast Guard.  When we do that we also need to change the rules governing nationalization to prevent the use of these forces for agressive "preventive" (read illegal) wars.  And for those of you arguing for an increase of forces to cover emergencies such as Pakistan or an Iranian war, well thats what a draft is for. And I haven't seen a single comment referring to a draft and probably won't because we all know that the politicians can increase the standing army for their little war games but the American people won't let them institute a draft for that purpose.  Thats how we are supposed to be able to prevent this kind of crap.  


by Demo Dan in Dayton on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 12:55:06 PM EST

Agreed - if we want to have (none / 0)

another full-on war after Iraq, we should have a draft. Too many don't care enough as long as someone else's son or daughter is fighting.

A draft tells all of us exactly what we are doing and what we are getting into. There's also a strong argment to make that we've reached a limit in how many we can legitimately raise with a volunteer army even with all the increases to bonuses we've done.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 03:49:05 PM EST

Re: Agreed - if we want to have (none / 0)

Thanks for the comment and the diary.  One of the things that we could also talk about is that if the Guard and Reserve are nationalized or a draft is instituted, an automatic tax increase should take effect.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% for the top 5 percentile and ALL capital gains.  That might stop the warmongers in their tracks, and if not we would have the money to help pay for the war.


by Demo Dan in Dayton on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 04:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With that tax rate (none / 0)

on the wealthy, we'd never have wars. Not sure what people like Cheney would do with that :).

Certainly its a big lesson from Iraq that we should have already learned. When we go into a war, we should go into with eyes wide open with fair sharing of the costs and the risks. With Iraq we just throw onto our children and children's children and instead of spreading the burden to more people, we increase the burden on the one's already in service. Its pretty sad.

Which is why I think we should demand real candor from the candidates about what they see for the military instead of throwing out numbers with arguments that don't make sense.


by okamichan13 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 05:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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