Hillary, the New Lieberman

there once was a democrat named joe
whose loyalty to party was no mo
but who stood beside him?  
our current front runner
who's closer to joe than you know

there is a whole group of americans, both republicans and democrats, who believe that all power should be concentrated in the white house.  george bush and dick cheney is obviously one of those americans.  so is joe lieberman.  and hillary clinton.

hillary is trying to distance herself from the blank check that she has given this administration, time after time.  want to invade iraq?  no problem!  take away constitutional rights?  no problem!  commit torture (although we'll call it something else)?  NO PROBLEM!

it's the president's prerogative, and we shouldn't do anything to curtail presidential powers.  of course, that's hillary's solution, perhaps because she wants to preserve for herself this vast freedom of action without some pesky oversight by the constitution or legislature or whoever.

and then there is barack obama.  a professor of constitutional law at one of the premier institutions in the country, barack has been a steady supporter of the checks and balances enshrined in our constitution.

we can see the difference between barack and hillary when we look at their senate voting record.  the national journal provides a broad overview of how our senators voted and has separated them into liberal and conservative scores.  hillary claims that she doesn't want to be considered a liberal and this shows in her votes.

Senate Liberal Scores

In the following list, 99 senators^ are assigned liberal scores for their roll-call votes on key economic, social and foreign policy issues during 2006. The scores on each scale are given as percentiles. The composite score measures votes across all three issue areas.

You can sort the ratings from highest to lowest liberal score across all categories or alphabetically by name.

How To Read These Ratings
A score of 78 on economic issues, for example, means that the senator was more liberal than 78 percent of his or her Senate colleagues on key economic votes during 2006. "N/A" means the member missed more than half of the rated votes.

Composite Liberal score

Rank    Name        Economi    Social    Foreign    Lib Composite
01.    Durbin, Richard    87     95     95     95.2
02.    Boxer, Barbara    87     92     98     95
03.    Kennedy, Edward    87     88     98     93.7
04.    Leahy, Patrick    83     96     94     92.5
05.    Harkin, Tom    83     96     92     92
06.    Reed, Jack    87     89     88     91.3
07.    Sarbanes, Paul    87     93     79     89.7
08.    Murray, Patty    87     96     76     89.3
09.    Mikulski, Barb    87     80     88     88.8
10.    Obama, Barack    87     77     85     86
11.    Wyden, Ron    87     80     79     86
12.    Kerry, John    87     89     72     85.7
13.    Bingaman, Jeff    87     76     85     85.5
14.    Levin, Carl    75     96     79     85.3
15.    Feingold, Russ    75     86     88     84.5
16.    Lautenberg, Fra    87     89     67     84.3
17.    Dodd, Chris    83     93     72     84
18.    Akaka, Daniel    74     79     95     83.5
19.    Menendez, Rober    79     80     84     82.7
20.    Jeffords, James    82     86     77     82.5
21.    Dayton, Mark    78     77     85     81
22.    Cantwell, Maria    79     80     75     79.7
23.    Reid, Harry    79     72     79     78.2
24.    Biden, Joseph    87     73     65     77.5
25.    Feinstein, Dian    67     70     88     76.5
26.    Schumer, Charle    71     80     67     74.5
27.    Dorgan, Byron    67     57     95     74.3
28.    Bayh, Evan    83     71     62     73.3
29.    Inouye, Daniel    65     75     74     71.8
30.    Kohl, Herb    75     67     67     71
31.    Byrd, Robert    66     51     92     70.5
32.    Clinton, Hillar    63     80     62     70.2
33.    Johnson, Tim    63     61     79     69.2
34.    Stabenow, Debbi    67     68     66     68
35.    Salazar, Ken    72     69     61     67.8
36.    Lieberman, Joe    73     74     54     67.5
37.    Carper, Thomas    67     63     67     67.2
--    Rockefeller, Ja    62      N/A      60      N/A
38.    Baucus, Max    60     66     71     66.2
39.    Conrad, Kent    59     58     77     65.3
40.    Lincoln, Blanch    58     64     62     62.3
41.    Nelson, Bill    57     64     58     60.3
42.    Pryor, Mark    61     59     57     59.5
43.    Chafee, Lincoln    55     61     59     59
44.    Landrieu, Mary    56     60     55     57.5
[...]

hillary clinton is much closer to joe lieberman than she is to barack obama.  and this difference is most dramatic when we are talking about foreign policy votes.  here obama rates a 85% liberal score while hillary rates a 62% -- a dramatic 23 point difference.  if you ever called joe a bush lite candidate, then you'd have to agree that hillary fits the bill as well.  there just isn't that much difference betweem lieberman and hillary here.

the thing about hillary -- and bill clinton has a lot to do with this -- is that she votes like a bush lite, but she talks tough about taking it to the administration and contrasting herself with it.  the record simply doesn't support her faux image here.  hillary is a reliable supporter of executive power and executive privilege -- and you can be sure she would fight as hard as bush does to retain both.

in the end, hillary represents continuity with the past.  it is clearly mainstream -- let's have no allusions that barack's program of change isn't a split with the past.  hillary, of course, thinks this makes him naive.

i think brave is a better word.  necessary works, as well...



Display:


Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (2.33 / 3)

Boy, Obama supporters don't even realize the tremendous disservice they do their candidate.  Amazing.  

This diary is absolute nonsense, so it is not worth rebutting.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:20:37 PM EST

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

The problem for you, George, is that you can't rebut it. Neither can your candidate.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

The writer says Hillary cliams she is not a liberal and her votes show she is not , so she was stating the truth , so whats the complaint.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hillary has said she's doesn't like the liberal... (none / 0)

label -- and she said this recently.  i know that people here don't like to hold hillary to her own words, but i don't see why not...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Oh, please.  You KNOW better, but you are blinded by the "light" of worship.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Kettle, you are so black.


"ex nihilo nihil fit"
by Lassallean on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

<kindergarten stuff>  Says the kettle that is calling the pot black.  </kindergarten stuff>

Try to be substantive, lassallean, instead of juvi.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Lately georgeep you just put down everybody's posts about Hillary when you don't agree with them.

No rebuttals no nothing.

Instead of attacking the poster why don't you talk about the substance for a change?

Is the index wrong?? Is she really not like Liebermann on foreign policy?

If so, why? Tell us.


by lafinur on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

just saw your post below.

I wish your gut instinct was to respond to the post and not attack the diarist.

But I'm glad you did in the end.


by lafinur on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/257924.h tm


by rapcetera on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Answer the facts (none / 0)

Once you were a reasonable poster, now you are just full of spin.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (3.00 / 1)

Oh my god.  I freaking agree with georgeP!  Again!

First we'll be agreeing about how substance free Hope,Inc. is.

Next we'll be eating smores and having sleep- overs.  We'll watch movies, talk about the ladies...it'll be just like 7th grade all over!


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

No, you are georgep.  Can you refute what was written?  If so, do so.  If not, take the blinders off and be honest about your candidate.  Is Obama all that and a bag of chips?  Of course, not.  And many of us who do support him, will state so, but not you.  You are either totally oblivious to her or a Republican who is campaigning so hard on the boards for her, as areyouready, that she is perceived the only candidate the Republicans can handily beat.  Now, I am not stating fact here, but mere speculation, because when it comes to HRC, you are got the rose colored glasses on HARD.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

It is nonsense because it only measures ONE year.  Over the course of careers both candidates are next to each other, as measured by voting records:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=NYI&cha mber=Senate&zip=&x=39&y=4

Clinton's voting record puts her at #14 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 92.06%

Now Obama:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=ILIII&c hamber=Senate&zip=&x=28&y=11

Obama's voting record puts him at #15 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 91.37%

Sure, it is close.  But if you look at all votes from either cast in their Senate careers, Clinton is actually the slightly more progressive Senator.

Go ahead, look at the votes cast in their entirety, across all areas.  It is right there for you to read.  

BTW, a little later on I'll be posting a very recent progressive survey with a graph that shows that in another way to measure liberal/progressive credentials Clinton has come out way, way far left, the furthest left of any candidate running by far.  The measure is co-sponsorship of legislation, in which Clinton is far, far to the left of the median (the middle) whereas Obama is actually right of the middle point.    In other words, Obama has co-sponsored a lot of right-of-center legislation, making him one of the more moderate/conservative members of Congress when it comes to co-sponsoring legislation.

---------------------------------------- -

In short, Clinton's voting record puts her AHEAD of Obama when it comes to progressive records.  Slightly, sure, but still ahead.   And, when it comes to choosing whose legislation to CO-SPONSOR, Obama actually gravitated towards the more centrist/moderate/conservative members of Congress to hitch his waggon on.    THAT is something to tout here proudly?   I think not.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i'm not the one claiming that hillary and barack.. (none / 0)

make the same votes.  i believe it was bill who put out that canard.  here is proof that their voting records are not the same, with a specific breakdown for foreign policy.

your evidence does not, in any way, alter the proof i've provided that bill is wrong, that barack is right.  the close proximity to joe is just the icing on the cake...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton "co-sponsorship" is meaningless (none / 0)

Co-sponsorship is an unreliable and misleading index, in Clinton's case. She has a very bad track record
of horning in at the last minute and demanding that her name be tacked onto progressive-looking bills
that suit her own personal branding purposes. She cynically uses other Senators' ideas and initiative,
without having invested any of her own time, effort, or political capital.

Ever hear the phrase "I killed a bear, but Papa shot it"?


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Nice.  So you can't write anything to rebut MY post (after you nonsensically claimed that I could not show anything to debunk the original diary,) so you write this illogical piece that has nothing to do with the issue?  So WHAT if she goes with others.  She went FAR, FAR left when co-sponsoring legislation, Obama went very much to the right.  Try to find the name "Ted Kennedy" on his co-sponsor list.  But you'll find the name Lugar and Nunn a bunch of times.  Nasty stuff, that bi-partisanship at all cost.    


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

How "far, far left"? This far?
by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Ummm... Nunn isn't in the Senate and hasn't been for quite some time.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Right. Nunn left the Senate in January 1997 -- eight years before Obama got there.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Which year is the National Journal for?  Lincoln Chaffee is still on the list.  Maybe it's 2006?  I'll check the link.  
As far as co-sponsors, isn't it actually a good thing if you have a bill (like say Obama's government transparency bill) to go out and find the most conservative member of Congress you can find who will still support it, as a strategy for building support? (He got Tom Coburn.)
Regardless, I'll be interested to see what you post.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

The metric that progressive survey measured was actually co-sponsorship, which means Obama latching onto someone elses bill.  Coburn, Lugar, Nunn are just a few of the names.  Obama headed well over the middle to the right, the graph showed him in the midst of a bunch of Republicans, to the right of virtually every Democrat.   I don't consider that a good thing.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

He sponsored the government transparency bill with Coburn, he has worked on nuclear proliferation and visited former Soviet states with Lugar (who is bar none the expert on the matter in either party)...  I don't consider any of those moderate or conservative pieces of legislation.  As far as Nunn?  Former Georgia Senator Sam Nunn was a Democrat.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

A "conservative" Democrat.

Obama was obviously trying to hone his bi-partisanship via the co-sponsorships he latched onto.  You cite a couple of measures you find not that objectionable, but the overall evidence shows his choices of co-sponsorships to be anything but progressive.  

Many believe that Obama is moving towards the middle a tad early, that he is not going the usual route of solidifying his base and THEN reaching out beyond it.  I fear that this is actually already as far as Obama is willing to go, and if he won the nomination he would move even further to the right (by marching straight to the middle and claim the centrist/moderate mantle.)   Not a good development if you are a progressive.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

obama is not your father's democrat... (none / 0)

he's a new leader, one who has correctly identified the problems that we face, understands the environment in which those problems exist, and offers real solutions -- and real change -- within those contexts.  offering up nixonian political strategy is, well, archaic.  apparently, you use the internet but you don't understand it.

again, i will say that if progressives are supporting invading iraq (or supporting candidates who argued vociferously in support of invading iraq), then i want no part of it.  those democratic candidates who waffled about iraq seem to have all lost in 2006 -- and there's no reason to expect a different outcome in 2008.  the only think we know about hillary is that she energizes the republican base more than she does the democratic base...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He can't rebut it (3.00 / 0)

All he's doing is claim this is false with no facts to debunk it....That was a very nice diary with true facts.

Hillary record in the senate is very centrist in compare to Obama...Just look at it, it's not even close.


by JaeHood on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He can't rebut it (none / 0)

That is a lie.  In my follow-up post I cleary debunked the diary by showing that it is indeed Clinton with the overall more progressive voting record (it is close, but she is still ahead) and BY FAR the more progressive record when it comes to co-sponsorship, a metric in which Obama is actually RIGHT OF CENTER.


by georgep on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no, you didn't... (none / 0)

offering up different data points does not debunk it.  you want to compare apples and oranges.  i was commenting about co-sponsorships, because anyone who's spent any time on the hill knows that they are basically meaningless...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

National Journal is about as respected a political news organization as they come.  Do you maybe want to challenge this depiction of Clinton's voting record instead of just calling it stupid?


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Please explain your reasoning there.  Obama has a more liberal score on his votes than Hillary and Leiberdousch, and Hillary comes much closer to Leiberdousch.  It's a valid point to make and you are calling it nonsense?  Again, your bias is spilling out your pores here.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

The point being made is that if you're looking to elect Leibermann, your best bet is to elect Hillary.


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

The argument you and the diariest are both making seem to be self defeating . You say she said she wasn't a liberal right and her votes show it , so what is your complaint . Unless you are pushing an agenda that only a liberal dem should be the dem nominee which I don't agree with then I don't know what you are arguing about.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

self-defeating? (none / 0)

hillary's proximity to joe isn't being contested, it's being illuminated.  what is being shown is that bill clinton was absolutely wrong when he said that barack and hillary's voting records were the same.  this particular year shines a bright light on the contrast that emerged in the debate -- that hillary is the status quo candidate tied to the past and the barack is the change candidate with a vision for the future.  if you need more help, just ask!


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

It is nonsense because it only measures ONE year.  Over the course of careers both candidates are next to each other, as measured by voting records:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=NYI&cha mber=Senate&zip=&x=39&y=4

Clinton's voting record puts her at #14 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 92.06%

Now Obama:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=ILIII&c hamber=Senate&zip=&x=28&y=11

Obama's voting record puts him at #15 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 91.37%

Sure, it is close.  But if you look at all votes from either cast in their Senate careers, Clinton is actually the slightly more progressive Senator.

Go ahead, look at the votes cast in their entirety, across all areas.  It is right there for you to read.  

BTW, a little later on I'll be posting a very recent progressive survey with a graph that shows that in another way to measure liberal/progressive credentials Clinton has come out way, way far left, the furthest left of any candidate running by far.  The measure is co-sponsorship of legislation, in which Clinton is far, far to the left of the median (the middle) whereas Obama is actually right of the middle point.    In other words, Obama has co-sponsored a lot of right-of-center legislation, making him one of the more moderate/conservative members of Congress when it comes to co-sponsoring legislation.    


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Actually it shows that on social issues Hillary is more liberal.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

unlike hillary's supporters, i'm not trying to... (none / 0)

hide anything.  his record is what it is.  the contrast i was interested in making was over foreign policy as well as their composite score...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unlike hillary's supporters, i'm not trying to (none / 0)

So his position on social issues isn't important?


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not to my vote... (none / 0)

invading iraq is it, all the way...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

"Again, your bias is spilling out your pores here."

You know, that seems to be standard operating procedure for you.  I clearly show the diary to make little sense, and after writing a personal slam that really should not be part of your posting to any member here you simply disappear?   At least have the decency to discuss my follow-up post, for crying out loud.   I show the true record, something the diarist did not do, thereby obviously writing a nonsensical diary (as I stated in the first place.)


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Totally Agree! (none / 0)

TOTAL DISSERVICE!!


by lonnette33 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

This is really dumb.

Isn't Lieberman one of Obama's mentors?

Didn't Obama lead a standing ovation for Lieberman?

Doesn't Lieberman respect Reagan just like Obama?


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:26:56 PM EST

Dick Durbin (3.00 / 1)

New senators are assigned an older mentor to help them figure out their way around.  Lieberman was assigned to Obama.
By all accounts, Obama's real mentor in the Senate, his most trusted friend and adviser, is actually Dick Durbin, fellow senator from Illinois, who counseled him the most strongly about making a run for president, and who interestingly enough is at the top of this list.
It's hardly worth repeating yet again that the comparisons to Reagan were about being a game-changer, about transforming American politics, and not about any of his policies.  You would have to be blind not to see that particularly Obama's domestic policies are worlds away from Reagan.
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Durbin (none / 0)

But the transforming of American politics by Reagan was very divisive. He was a horrible man and his transformation was filled with hate. Why would Obama want to associate himself with him in any way? Unless he respects him of course. I know that Lieberman does.

Am I wrong about Obama leading the standing ovation for Lieberman too? It's so hard to know fact from fiction these days and I don't want to believe a rumor. But that's what I read in a few places.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Durbin (none / 0)

Obama came here to rally Democrats last spring and said that, as a freshman senator, he chose Lieberman as his mentor.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:WoM rLUWx6YYJ:www.courant.com/news/opinion/c olumnists/hc-curry0121.artjan21,0,730469 3.column+obama,lieberman,mentor&hl=e n&ct=clnk&cd=41&gl=us&cl ient=firefox-a


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Durbin (none / 0)

So Obama chose Lieberman as his mentor? Wow, that's amazing!


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Hey She said she is not a liberal right and her votes prove it according to you , so apparently She was telling the truth . So i don't know why you are complaining . does everyone have to be a liberal to be a dem.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:34:08 PM EST

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

No, but we're not trying to decide who should be a Dem, we're trying to decide who should be the leader of our country.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

 I want a dem to be the president , not necessarily a liberal.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are we that Desperate? (3.00 / 1)

It seems like every week we are seeing very desperate attempts by some rabid Anti-Hillary people.

I am not supporting anyone yet but com'on, Has Clinton ever said or positioned herself as the Liberal candidate in the Democratic field?

Has she ever claimed to be a Liberal Democrat who is running for President? of course NOT!

So you are exposing something that she never claimed to be in the first place.

Any "highly informed" Democratic voter already knows what she is about & what she is not.

And the bottom line as of today, there are much more Democrats who are supporting her than any of her rivals including your so called " Liberal" Democratic opponents.

She is currently winning supporters from all major Democratic block of voters including women, blacks, jews, and latinos.

There's a reason a "Liberal Democrat" like Jesse Jackson is supporting Barack Obama over a Hillary Clinton.

There's no mystery there. You are trying to make an issue of nothing.

You are NOT going to win any converts that way.


by fightingLadyinblue on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:27:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary is desperate! (none / 0)

Hillary is at the top of this page of Centri$ts - www.DLC.org
However, in the debate this week, she claimed she's a Progressive.
Typical Centrist - talking out of both sides of her mouth - allowing Murdoch to fund her campaign while Fox News bashes DailyKos and she snuggles up to YearlyKos.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's why she's winning- duh! (none / 0)

You just gave the reason why she is currently winning big over Obama.

Hillary is getting support from all sectors of the Democratic party. She is getting huge support from women voters, blacks, jews, blocks of support from BOTH moderates & Progressives.

And if one wants to win the general, you better be able to get support from majority of people.

NOT JUST PROGRESSIVES!  Howard Dean learned that the hardway. He finished not 1st, not 2nd, not even 3rd! But 4th place.

That's how BIG the mainstream moderate block of voters are. Inspite of a UNITED Liberal/Progressive support for Dean, he finished 4th.

We are not electing a President just for Progressives, We are electing a President of the entire Democratic Party & the United States of America!


by fightingLadyinblue on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i dunno... (none / 0)

my research (field and focus groups) seems to suggest that clinton is the default preference.  the des moines register found that 87% of democrats where willing to change their minds.  so while she looks good at this point, it could change if the other candidates make their case -- and that doesn't mean just attacking hillary...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ReObama got the Positive RockStar No One ever had (none / 0)

Borednow,
You said, HRC's lead is by "Default preference?

Let me point out to you a few but very powerful points.

One, NO POLITICIAN , I REPEAT, No Politician  in the last three decades or so ever received the over TWO YEARS Long " ROCKSTAR FREE PRESS, FREE PUBLICITY" that Obama received from the MSM.

This was worth hundreds of Millions of Unchallenged, FREE, 99% POSITIVE Free Ads on a lethal combination of PRINT, INTERNET, TV, & RADIO ads that Obama received from the Mainstream Media.

From the Cover of Time, Newsweek, New Yorker Mag to the pages of the Liberal NY Times to even the conservative Wall Street Journal.

Barack Obama was the " Talk of the Country". The politics of Hope. The Real Deal. The 1st Serious, Real African-American politician who
may & can actually be President of this great nation.

Ergo, it pushed him to the Top 3 candidates of the Democratic party.

However, inspite of all that- Hillary Clinton has remained on top. In fact, she has been the favorite since 2003 among Democrats! The only unannounced candidate in 2003 who IF she jumped in, would have defeated Kerry, Dean, Edwards & Clark hands down.

The same HRC who has continued year after year to be demonized by the conservative community of this country. Yet, has emerged as More Popular than ever.

The Same HRC who is beating Obama in pretty every Black community. From Blacks in the South, to Blacks in the northeast, to the midwest streets of Michigan.

There is no denying that. Polls have been steady & consistent.

Secondly, if she is the "Default Preference"- Her numbers should decrease by now. Instead it has only increased even more.

As people learn more & more about Obama, it pretty much reinforces their fear that Obama is NOT YET READY for Prime time.

I will sleep better at night knowing that HRC will be battling for me in the nasty debates in November against the Right Wing Machine. She is as disciplined & as intelligent as you will get.

Obama is not ready. Giving good & charismatic speeches is great but that has nothing to do with running the country & facing the ruthless
right wingers.

Having majority of Democrats favoring you year after year for 4 years is NOT soft. In fact, that's impressive!

First of all, this has been over 4 years now of "default preference"


by fightingLadyinblue on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:25:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

fightingLadyinblue (none / 0)

Great commentary, and all of it accurate.  Thank you.  


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

more people know who paris hilton is... (none / 0)

than barack obama.  there is no doubt that barack is an exciting leader with fresh ideas who offers a transformational vision for the country -- but most people don't know that.  as of january 1, 2007 47% of the country hadn't even heard of him.  as of july 17, 42% don't know him well enough to have an opinion of him.

as i've mentioned in other threads, measurements of core supporters, those people who are less likely to change their minds (or already made up their minds) has obama at 19%, clinton at 18& and edwards at 12%.  yet the latest diageo/hotline poll has them at:

Hillary Clinton    39
Barack Obama    30
John Edwards    11

clinton has 21 percentage points of soft support, people very likely to change their minds if another candidate makes the case.  obama has 11 percentage points, and edwards has no statistical difference.  

one of the biggest reasons that hillary is the default candidate is because there is such a huge difference between her name recognition and that of other candidates.  hillary polls at 2% people who have never heard of her.  edwards polls at 11%.  obama polls at 18% people who have never heard of him.  moreover, survey and field research has reinforced the conclusion that hillary is the default candidate.  in fact, that term came out of a focus group setting.

i don't understand your reasoning about why her numbers should be heading down.  she gets good press, she has a solid performance -- and voters still don't know as much about the other candidates as they do of her.  i wouldn't expect any major movement in the polls until there is a break in that dynamic.  hillary is a pseudo-incumbent and carries significant advantages as such.  i'm unclear why you would think otherwise.

in the end, hillary loses.  if she doesn't lose the democratic nomination, she loses the general, no matter who the republican is.  as the most polarizing figure outside of george bush, she mobilizes the republican base far more effectively than she does the democratic base.  i'm actually troubled by her fund-raising, because i wonder if she can compete with republicans without public funding for both.  like john kerry (who was also inevitable because he was going to win it), hillary will struggle to unite the base into the fall of 2008.  unless we get out of iraq, that alone will hurt her efforts to unite the base.  the real question is how many senate, house and state legislature seats do we lose because she's at the top of the ticket.  that's what i am worried about...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:33:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

fightingLadyinblue (none / 0)

Well said.

Hillary's support across the country is massive. It is why she has never once lost her lead to another candidate.  Rasumussen today has her almost 30 points ahead of Edwards.  And 19 points ahead of Obama.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's winning with Duh! supporters (none / 0)

>>>>Hillary is getting support from all sectors of the Democratic party

This is an admission that her supporters are very uninformed - or corporatists.
The Hillary-Murdoch merger has produced a corporate media willing to conceal important info about Hillary - much as they did in selling the war by concealing prewar intel.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman and some support (3.00 / 0)

Here is a list of right wing support and their comments after the debate dust up with Obama by Clinton:

Fred Barnes of The Weekly Standard, a neo-conservative weekly, wrote that she delivered her answer to the now-famous "would-you-meet-with-despots" question "firmly and coolly."

- Rich Lowry of National Review, a conservative weekly, gushed like a schoolboy with a new crush: "She excels . . . Clinton has run a nearly flawless campaign and has done more than any other Democrat to show she's ready to be president."

- David Brooks, the conservative columnist at The New York Times, wrote that Clinton "seems to offer the perfect combination of experience and change" and said she's changing perceptions in a way that may persuade voters to give her a second look.

- Charles Krauthammer, the conservative columnist of The Washington Post, summed up the Clinton-Obama smackdown: "The grizzled veteran showed up the clueless rookie."

Boy she has Krauthammers support. I am sure all democrats would love his support.


by BDM on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman and some support (none / 0)

She does NOT have their support.  Only on that issue.   As Obama posters have made abundantly clear in diary after diary, Obama has the monopoly on actual right-wing support.  


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

uhh.... (none / 0)

it merely provides another data point where conservatives are eager for hillary to be the democratic nominee.  you could, of course, argue that conservatives are becoming democrats.  perhaps a more elegant argument, though, would be that conservatives are eager to run against hillary...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really the same. (none / 0)

For me scorecards are only one factor. It is how you frame issues to support other Democrats fighing the good fight that matters as much. Hillary has failed in this aspect until recent months where she has conveniently found her voice. However, let's not go overboard and liken her to Lieberman. Lieberman has actively been badmouthing many Democrats. Hillary has not done that even if she hasn't jumped to their rescue in the past.


by Pravin on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:55:29 PM EST

Re: Not really the same. (none / 0)

I didn't hear a pip from Obama , did you?


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 02:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If he cannot even carry Black voters (none / 0)

The bottom line with Obama is if he cannot even carry a majority of black voters against Hillary Clinton, no way can he defeat her.

No matter how he runs his campaign, his natural base of support ( and best chance of expanding his base support) still has to come from the Black community.

And right now, despite the last year of "Obamamania Free Press" Rockstar media coverage across the nation, Hillary Clinton is still winning majority of Black voters from the fields of South Carolina, to the streets of Michigan, to the tunnels of New Jersey & New York.

Hillary Clinton DOES NOT NEED blocks of Black voters to win this thing.

Even Edwards DOES NOT NEED blocks Black voters to pull this off.

But Obama sure NEEDS LOTS OF STRONG Solid BLACK SUPPORT to win this thing.

As it is today, Obama may make LOTS of NOISE until the end, RAISE LOTS of money, BUT that does not translate into victory.

HRC has actually continued to move up while Obama has either weakened  or remained stagnant in some critical states.


by fightingLadyinblue on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:39:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary=Murdoch merger (none / 0)

Hillary SHOULD BE moving up with her Murdoch advantage - and the media crowning her prez 24/7. Jeeez!
When the media airs her relationship with Penn and Gupta - lemme know. Tick...tick...tick...
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary nor Obama campaigned with Lamont (none / 0)

Obama rallies state Democrats, throws support behind Lieberman
By Stephanie Reitz, Associated Press Writer  |  March 31, 2006
http://tinyurl.com/2k6j4j

HARTFORD, Conn. --U.S. Sen. Barack Obama rallied Connecticut Democrats at their annual dinner Thursday night, throwing his support behind mentor and Senate colleague Joe Lieberman.

Obama, an Illinois Democrat who is considered a rising star in the party, was the keynote speaker at the annual Jefferson Jackson Bailey Dinner.

Lieberman, Connecticut's junior senator, is under fire from some liberal Democrats for his support of the Iraq War. He was key in booking Obama, who routinely receives more than 200 speaking invitations each week.

Some at Thursday's dinner said that while they were pleased with Lieberman's success in bringing Obama to Connecticut, they still consider Lieberman uncomfortably tolerant of the Bush administration.

Obama wasted little time getting to that point, calling it the "elephant in the room" but praising Lieberman's intellect, character and qualifications.

"The fact of the matter is, I know some in the party have differences with Joe. I'm going to go ahead and say it," Obama told the 1,700-plus party members who gathered in a ballroom at the Connecticut Convention Center for the $175-per-head fundraiser.

"I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf," he said.

Obama received widespread attention for his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, delivered while he was still a state senator.

Lieberman became Obama's mentor when Obama was sworn into the Senate in 2005. They stayed close at Thursday night's event, too, entering the room together and working the crowd in tandem.

Despite the camaraderie between the two, the crowd was clearly more receptive to Obama's remarks than Lieberman's speech about party unity and the potential for Democratic victories at the ballot box this fall.

In fact, scattered boos greeted Lieberman when he took the podium, and he had to stop three times during his remarks to shush the crowd so he could deliver key points.

Ned Lamont, a Democratic activist and anti-war candidate from Greenwich, is challenging Lieberman for the party's nomination this year. Legions of supporters of Lieberman and Lamont both attended the dinner.

Lieberman, who is seeking a fourth term, also faces an Election Day challenge from Paul Streitz of Darien, who is trying to win the Republican nomination.

Some Democrats at Thursday's event said Lieberman's support of the Iraq War is still a sore point with them. In fact, the Democratic town committees in Windsor and Manchester both recently passed resolutions condemning Lieberman's stance.

"Those of us who've been on the shooting end of the war gallery aren't happy at all about what's going on," said Warren Packer, a Manchester Democratic Town Committee member and military veteran. "I think he's done some good things for the state, but he has to answer for the war."

But that view was not shared throughout the ballroom.

Former Connecticut Democratic U.S. Rep. Jim Maloney, who voted against the launch of the war while he served in the House, said he thinks Lieberman's other accomplishments will overshadow the concerns about his stance on the Iraq War.

"I'm still confident my position was correct, but I just as strongly believe that Sen. Lieberman voted his conscience," Maloney said. "Even those of us who don't agree with him on that one issue have to credit him for doing what he thinks is the right thing."


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary nor Obama campaigned with Lamont (none / 0)

and this was before LIEBERMAN WAS DEFEATED BY LAMONT.  And yes, Liberman was chosen by the senate as his mentor, when he first came into the senate.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary nor Obama campaigned with Lamont (none / 0)

Read s-l-o-w-l-y: Hillary nor Obama campaigned with Lamont.
If they had wanted Lamont to be elected - as John Edwards did - they would have actively campaigned with him and supported him PUBLICLY.
Follow the money...

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Case in point (3.00 / 1)

This article includes a very interesting and telling footnote involving Dianne Feinstein,
who endorsed Clinton this week.

Although I've always generally admired Feinstein, I've also tended to think of her as one
of the more hawkish Democrats in the Senate.

Turns out that Feinstein, along with Patrick Leahy, offered an amendment to last September's
defense budget that would have limited the United States' ability to export cluster bombs to
countries that use these bombs against civilian-populated areas.

As many as 40% of the bomblets in each cluster bomb can remain undetonated on impact.
These unexploded "duds," which are de facto land mines, pose a particular threat to curious
young children, who can mistake the undetonated bomblets -- which look very much like
shiny lawn darts -- for toys. Children and others who have picked up the bomblets and/or
put them in their pockets have had their limbs blown off or been killed.

Specifically, the amendment -- which was prompted largely by Israel's use of cluster bombs in
Lebanon last summer -- would have prevented U.S. tax dollars from being used to buy, use or
transfer U.S.-made cluster bombs, until the Pentagon adopted rules of engagement ensuring
that the weapons could not be used near any large concentrations of civilians.

The amendment failed in the Senate, 30-70.

Who was the only Senator among the Democratic presidential candidates who had the moral
judgment and political spine to stand up and vote Yes on the amendment? Barack Obama.

Along with Senators Feinstein and Leahy, Obama was joined in his Yes vote by
Senators Boxer, Byrd, Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Jeffords, Kennedy, Kerry, Levin,
Mikulski, Reid, and Sarbanes, among others.

No Republicans voted Yes.

Which Senators among the Democratic presidential candidates voted an indefensible No on
the amendment? Hillary Clinton -- the "children's advocate" -- Joe Biden, and Chris Dodd.

These three were joined in their shameful No votes by Republican presidential candidates
Brownback and McCain, as well as Senators Bayh, Frist, Graham, Grassley, Hagel, Hatch,
Hutchison, Inhofe, Lieberman, Lott, McConnell, Santorum, Schumer, Sessions, Specter,
and Warner, among others.

The full voting record is here.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:42:32 PM EST

Re: Case in point (none / 0)

Well that's not good. Did anyone ever ask Hillary why she voted against this?


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Congress (none / 0)

In congress, the votes are counted before they actually vote on a bill. In cases were a bill is either going to pass with overwhelmning support or fail with overwhelming support politicians are encouraged to vote inline with what their constituency would want. This keeps their constituents happy and prevents their future opponents from using their vote against them. This is why the final vote tallys are often inflated or deflated.

A recent example of this was the immigration bill. The final bill was within a vote or two from gaining cloture but once everyone realized it wasn't going to pass many Republicans switched votes and voted no so they wouldn't look "weak on immigration."

This is something people outside of Washington don't think of when looking at voting records ratings and why no one involved in politics takes it serious.

I could go off all day on the flaws of voting rankings.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

I am against the cluster bombs. I think they are barbaric and inhumane. I hope that Hillary has the good sense to change her vote the next time it comes up. Are you saying that the people of New York were in favor of selling cluster bombs?


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (3.00 / 1)

It wouldn't have mattered if the people of New York were in favor of selling cluster bombs
that they knew were going to rain down on civilian populations elsewhere.

It was Clinton's responsibility to lead New York and the country on a foreign policy issue about
which -- as Barack Obama obviously understood -- there is no moral ambiguity. She failed.

For the record, I am a New Yorker, and Clinton certainly did not represent me with that vote.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

Barack Obama and John Edwards have done this too truth me.

I would rather have a democrat show leadership by pushing forward a democrat agenda in office rather than lose to a republican for voting against a bill that would not have passed anyways.

That is called pragmatism. That's the same reason both you and I will vote for whoever the democratic nominee is rather than allow a Republican to take the office. Don't pretend you don't operate under the same calculus as us all.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (2.50 / 2)

Are you seriously arguing that voting against cluster bombs in densely populated areas
would have compromised Clinton's electability -- and, for that matter, Biden's and Dodd's?

Are you saying that these Senators have no moral obligation to use the power that is theirs to
limit the use of cluster bombs, thereby preventing unnecessary injury and death to innocents,
including children?

Are you saying that 100 unnecessary and preventable deaths is an acceptable price to pay for
the White House, if it allows us to appease Israel? 200? 500? 1,000? 10,000?

If you are nodding yes, please don't pretend you operate under the same calculus as me.

You don't.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

Nice rhetoric. My head was nodding and I don't support cluster bombs at all.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

Your problem is you're trying to debate whether or not cluster bombs are good or bad. I agree they are generally bad. That isn't the issue. The issue is how you should vote on a bill if your vote is not needed.

Am I saying that Pro Israel and Jewish voters support the defense of Israel very adamanetly, and at all costs? Yes.

As passionately as you and some other people feel about Iraq they feel 2x as strongly about Israel. IT IS THEIR HOLY WAR.

I won't get into the merrits of Israel versus the Arabs. Thats a whole other discussion. My only point is that there are many people in New York that feel VERY strongly about this.

Do you deny this?

The problem with your argument is that you're looking at this as voting for Cluster Bombs or voting to ban them. That isn't the situation in this specfic case.

If Clinton votes for the amendment the amendment still fails by 30ish votes.

Do you deny this?

What this means is that a vote for the bill does zero benefit. It does however open her up to a powerful attack from a challenger which might allow a republican to beat her.

But now lets look at the external harms.

If Clinton is seen as vulnerable then the RSNC and the NY Republican party put in extra effort to get a formidable challenger for her race. Candidates who refused to think about running against her start having second thoughts.

Eventually the Republicans get a good candidate to run against her.

She now has a serious race and puts her seat in play. Will she lose? We don;t know.Probably not. But now instead of having a safe race which allowers her to give millions of dollars to other candidates in their close race shes focusing on her race. Let's not even mention that she probably would have a lot less money considering rich Jewish donors will be angry at her.

Are millions of dollars important to these candidates trying to unseat incumbent republicans? You bet it is. Does this ripple effect affect other candidates? I bet you it does.

So please tell me why voting against a bill that isn't going to pass anyways is a bad thing?

Here I'll do the calculus for your:

On a scale of 1 to 10

Yoting for bill that won't pass anyways: 1 (I'll be generous)

Voting against a bill that won't pass anyways  to cover your bases with a key constituency: 7

7 is GREATER THAN 1.

So please tell me the benefit for voting for a bill that won't pass?

I've give you lots of analysis so please give me an argument other than "cluster bombs are bad though!" because we are debating whether they're good or bad we're debating political strategy.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (3.00 / 1)

This might be the way politicians vote but it isn't something I agree with. Cluster bombs are barbaric weapons. They should be banned worldwide. If Israel insists on using barbaric weapons that cannot help but kill innocent civilians (mainly children) then we should probably rethink our relationship with Israel. I do not normally support Obama on anything but on this issue he was right to vote his conscience. I give him credit for standing up and doing the right thing. Hell, even Richard Nixon did at least one good thing: EPA. Hillary was wrong to wus out just to keep some Jews in her state happy no matter how little consequence her vote actually 'meant'.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (3.00 / 1)

I'm not interested in your political calculus. Cluster bombs are, as someone here said, barbaric and
inhumane. Barack Obama had the moral judgment and political spine to say so. Hillary Clinton did
not. That's just one reason why Obama deserves to be president -- and Clinton does not.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

I was refering to the Jewish population. Which is why I imagine Schumer voted against the Bill too.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (3.00 / 1)

Not a good enough reason.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

Also, I assume Graham refers to Bob Graham formerly of Florida. Another large Jewish population.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

No -- Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Congress (none / 0)

Ah my mistake. My point about Schumer still applies though.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Case in point (none / 0)

Gosh - that was terrible of Hillary - but follow the money...
 
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Okay look guys this is stupid.

The reason why people dislike Liberman isn't because he's a conservative democrat. The reason why people hate Liberman is because he repeatedly critisizes democrats and then on bills votes with Republicans which allows them to claim that their bills are bipartisian. This isn't a voting record issue, Liberman votes with his party 80% of the time. Liberman's deal is a division of the party issue.

This point isn't even arguable. The case you are trying to make does not exist.

Obama people. SERIOUSLY, you're rapidly starting to decrease the quality of these boards. STOP. There are plenty of arguments we can all have without you clogging the boards with garbage.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:46:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

And Clinton's people are fully above board and do no such thing


by BDM on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

Largely yes. Areyouready pushes it sometimes but even his/her diaries having been gaining in substance more. And moreover his/her diaries provide new commentary.

A lot of these pro obama diaries are just the same HILLARY SUCKS BECAUSE I SAID SO!.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (3.00 / 0)

pushes it, are you kidding?  that person is a Republican, and if HRC gets the nod, watch the bait and switch.  wake up.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

well, it still is about iraq for me...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

People hated Liberman loooong before Iraq. Besides no one really listens to him regarding Iraq.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

Here is obama today about the whole talking thing in Iowa ,

"I am confident we can go before the world and talk to the worst dictators and tell them we don't believe in your values, we don't believe in your human rights violations, we don't believe in you exporting terrorism, but if you are willing to work with us in a better direction then we're willing to talk," Obama said. "We shouldn't be afraid."

He says he is for no preconditions then in the same breadth sets up preconditions.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (1.00 / 0)

He's digging a hole deeper and deeper by trying to imitate Rove's strategy. Very junior move. I read those quotes, they are very problematic. He wants to go toe to toe with dictators by meeting them? What's for? A box match? It's junior beyond imagination.

I have a feeling some Jewish organizations will field some serious question on his planned presidential meeting with the worst holocaust denier and somebody who wants to wipe Israel off the map.

This guy is deranged.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

It is classic rovian strategy, twist your opponents words and try to make it like their position is different from yours while actually embracing their position.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and now we get the republican opinion... (none / 0)


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

Axelrod also said he wouldn't meet them in person. That seems like a might big precondition


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

Yeah talking about flip flops , he has flipped on this issue so much within the past 4 days that I don't think there is any use trying to figure out what his position is because it is clear he agrees with clinton but he is just trying to be disingenous. It seems like they went back into their campaign room and tried to figure out how they could spin his position so that they would make clinton look like she was adopting Bush style i.e past diplomacy while they were embracing a new approach , while in reality he made a mistake while answering the question and he actually agreed with clinton . Now he has spun himself so deep into the ground he is making dennis kucinich look Good . I bet dennis kucinich will even have some conditions. He is looking like a radical left winger now instead of a measured approach he indeed would have followed. Does anyone think Obama truly won't set conditions , but he's rhetoric is like Gravel now.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (1.00 / 1)

I have no comment on anything you say but I do have a question...

Shouldn't you be at a DLC convention or something like that?

How do you type while kissing Al From's...ring?

Just curious.


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 06:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

Apparently you should be there too since Edwards agrees with Clinton;s position on diplomacy.


by world dictator on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lori (none / 0)

Oh I know.  Obama is all over the place.  He sounds like one of those wind-up dolls.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

No coherent position from Obama on preconditions.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i was unaware of any anomisity towards him... (none / 0)

the war...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 05:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here i thought it was about iraq... (none / 0)

Well- maybe it's about Iraq for you - but JoeBama preferred pro-war Lieberman rather than anti-war Lamont.
Follow the money...
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

"if you are willing to work with us in a better direction"

Sure sounds like a precondition to me.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:36:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

He is just twisting in the wind , he wants to promote a myth that he is for diplomacy and clinton is not . Its just disingenous , he's position is the same as clintons and he keeps putting his foot in his mouth when he speaks about it because he is promoting a fradulent position . No preconditions then "if you are willing" sets up precondition.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

How do I know this rating system is severely flawed?

Feingold is listed as the 15th most liberal senator.  There's a reason a lot of us wanted him to run instead of say, Jeff Bingaman who is listen above him.


Netroots for Gore
by NYPopulist on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:54:17 PM EST

What has Obama done to check Bush? End war? (none / 0)

Run his mouth?  Is that about it?  It seems so.

Hillary meanwhiles is going toe to toe with Gates over the Pentagon.

But hey Barry Obam looks GREAT in a suit!  


by dpANDREWS on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:05:42 PM EST

Drama queen (none / 0)

Hillary meanwhiles is going toe to toe with Gates over the Pentagon.

Hillary Clinton completely fabricated that scenario. Played the media like a violin. I understand
it, of course. She has no anti-war street cred -- none -- so she has to manufacture it by playing
the wounded victim. Kind of like here.

What a f***ing drama queen.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again: (none / 0)

"What has Obama done to check Bush? End war?"

"Run his mouth?  Is that about it?  It seems so."

He has done nothing more than Hillary and maybe less.  I know, I know, back when he was Senator Pothole he gave a speech.  But he didn't have to vote back then.


by dpANDREWS on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again: (none / 0)

Obama introduced his legislation to end the Iraq war on 30 January.

Clinton introduced hers two and a half weeks later, on 17 January.

And yes, she did vote to get us into this mess, didn't she?

Please go back to school.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

on my calendar... (none / 0)

january 30 comes after january 17, not before...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on my calendar... (none / 0)

Sorry about that -- Clinton introduced her legislation on 17 February.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on my calendar... (none / 0)

thats so funny


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again (none / 0)

What has Obama done to check Bush?  To end the war?  How'd his legislation do?  Why isn't he doing something finite ... some that shows results.  Why isn't he out in front on torture and this prosecutors deal, which shows that they limited African Americans' ability to vote?


by dpANDREWS on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

obama took a red senate seat... (none / 0)

and he did so despite having spoken out against the war, something that hillary and bush attempted to thrust down the throats of americans.  he has spoken out continuously about bush's abuse of power -- again, something that hillary shies away from -- in this realm, and has much more intelligently than hillary sought to bring the country to consensus around a global approach to the national security problems we face.

i certainly love your circular reasoning here, though.  you claim obama's a nobody, and then ask, what legislation did he pass!  do you imagine that others are so stupid?

you've already made it clear that you don't support change, that you want to see the status quo continued.  obviously, you do not understand why anyone would support change, nee, demand it.  while you continue to belittle those who want hope for the future and to believe in america again, we will continue to note that hillary is bush-lite in her approach, especially in foreign policy.  for the change-adverse such as yourself, i don't really see why that's a problem.

that is, after all, what you want...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama took a red senate seat... (none / 0)

Don't forget that Obama beat an imported joke of a candidate, Alan Keyes, after his primary opposition, Jack Ryan, became embroiled in a sex scandal! This is a man who ran for senate twice in MD and lost!  Any democrat could beat Keyes in IL!  He's never had tough race and that should concern alot of people!    


by WAREHOUSE553 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no question about that... (none / 0)

but he started running before fitzgerald backed out, and beat a much more competitive group in the primary.  the sad reality is is that barack has more experience in competitive races than hillary (or edwards) does.  and as a democratic candidate who won despite not being slated by the chicago machine, obama has formidable experience in this area.  alan keys is just like rick lazio -- but without the contested primary...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:38:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ROTFL!!!! (none / 0)

Who did he take it from again?   A whacked out conservatard imported from MD, after what would have been a tough opponent went down in the flames of scandel?

I wonder if Obama's camp leaked the sex club stories now that you mention that race?


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

peter fitzgerald... (none / 0)

do you actually follow politics?  you seem to be incredibly ignorant of common political developments...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh please (none / 0)

Please help me understand oh wise one.

Facts are facts my friend.  Obama had to face a right wing joke in his run for the Senate.

Ryan would have given him a race before the scandal forced him to withdraw.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 09:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you may be the only person in the world... (none / 0)

who thinks that the general election was the difficult part of the campaign...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 02:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again (none / 0)

You are a black hole. You contribute less than zero to this entire forum. What an utter waste of bandwidth. F***ing pathetic.


by horizonr on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just answer my simple question. (none / 0)

Just tell me and save your frustration and anger.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just answer my simple question. (none / 0)

See above.


by horizonr on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drama queen (3.00 / 1)

Actually Hillary did her job as a Senator on the Armed Forces Committee. It's called Oversight. And the letter she received was unconscionable. In my opinion she had a responsibility to publish it and make a big stink about how she was addressed. I'm glad she did it.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drama queen (none / 0)

The letter Clinton received was the same Pentagon boilerplate that she had no doubt seen a hundred times
before over the last few years. Insulting, yes. Unconscionable, yes. But it wasn't some escalated personal attack,
which is what she made it out to be.

This was a PR opportunity to cry "Wolf!" She cried. And the media came a-rushing to defend her fragile honor.

Just as Howard Wolfson knew they would.


by horizonr on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drama queen (none / 0)

Pahleaze, wake up, people.  Do you think Hillary Clinton gave a rats ass when she voted for Iraq?  Is she that dumb, that she voted for something without seeing a substantial PLAN, and this goes for EVERYONE that voted for this war.  Now, she is tryin' to look tough, to ask for an exit plan, five years after that fact?  Where was she at before she announced her presidency for wanting to see a plan?  I don't remember her giving the pentagon holy hell, THEN.  This is fabricated and Obama called her out on it.  And he should have.  Anyone who lost a loved one in this war, should be outraged that a senator who voted for this shit, was not responsible enough to ask the questions THEN, not now.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Drama queen got results (none / 0)

How odd, a fabricated scenario got results.

Edelman, hat in hand and deeply apologetic, will come from the Pentagon to brief Senator Clinton and the Senate Armed Services Committee on Iraq withdrawal plans next Thursday. Oh, and just in time for Yearly Kos.

Clinton forced Cheney and the Pentagon to reverse themselves. It is not withdrawal, but it is the first motion we have seen from this administration, and it will help prepare whoever the next president is for pulling our troops out.

How is Obama's "16 Votes" going? Heard anything in the last two months?


by souvarine on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 02:14:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess Who This Is? (none / 0)

http://bp0.blogger.com/_iDtcq-5grnI/RfYw ZUuHo2I/AAAAAAAAAT0/RqkydaEzKt0/s1600-h/ obamamelissawinter.jpg

Yep.  Melissa Winter herself.  Devoted to her boss Joe Lieberman for over ten years.  Guess who borrowed her for his campaign, with Joe's blessing?  Barack Obama.  Miss Winter is working with Michelle Obama directly, as she campaigns for Barack around the country.

The Obamas and the Liebermans are very close.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 07:19:42 PM EST

Re: Guess Who This Is? (none / 0)

Is this really true? If so it surely refutes the premise of this diary without question.


Two licks are better than one
by Tommy Twolicks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i wouldn't say so... (none / 0)

the premise of this diary is that there are 21 places between hillary and barack and 3 places between hillary and joe.  thence, hillary is closer to joe and she is to barack.  now you can add ancillary information if you want, but it certainly doesn't refute the premise of this diary...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i wouldn't say so... (none / 0)

But the premise is false, as I clearly laid out:

It is nonsense because it only measures ONE year.  Over the course of careers both candidates are next to each other, as measured by voting records:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=NYI&cha mber=Senate&zip=&x=39&y=4

Clinton's voting record puts her at #14 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 92.06%

Now Obama:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? search=selectName&member=ILIII&c hamber=Senate&zip=&x=28&y=11

Obama's voting record puts him at #15 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 91.37%

Sure, it is close.  But if you look at all votes from either cast in their Senate careers, Clinton is actually the slightly more progressive Senator.

Go ahead, look at the votes cast in their entirety, across all areas.  It is right there for you to read.  

BTW, a little later on I'll be posting a very recent progressive survey with a graph that shows that in another way to measure liberal/progressive credentials Clinton has come out way, way far left, the furthest left of any candidate running by far.  The measure is co-sponsorship of legislation, in which Clinton is far, far to the left of the median (the middle) whereas Obama is actually right of the middle point.    In other words, Obama has co-sponsored a lot of right-of-center legislation, making him one of the more moderate/conservative members of Congress when it comes to co-sponsoring legislation.    


by georgep on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:58:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the premise is not false just because you don't... (none / 0)

like it.  unlike you, i wasn't making a general statement.  i focused on the last voting record available because it was the last voting record available.  i know, i know, you don't like the results.  that's your problem.  my premise is fully supported because it was based on facts.  it was based on a universally respected source.  it is what it is.

you want to offer different data points, and that's ok.  but your oranges are not an exact comparison to my apples.  you like the results better, and that's fine.  but it is no way falsifies my premise.  i understand your concern, given the fact that hillary is again in historically highs in her unfavorables...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guess Who This Is? (none / 0)

WOW. Interesting Regan. Can this be verified?


by lonnette33 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guess Who This Is? (3.00 / 0)

You're trying to prove the link to Lieberman by citing that Lieberman and Obama's wife share a Director of Scheduling?  Are you kidding?  Congressional staffers move around the Hill all the time working for various people.  Can't you do better than that?


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's easier than trying to explain her voting... (3.00 / 0)

record...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 10:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary, the New Lieberman (none / 0)

This diary is a joke.   The record is different, I suspect the diarist knows this.

It is nonsense because it only measures ONE year.  Over the course of careers both candidates are next to each other, as measured by voting records:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? %20search=selectName&member=NYI& cha%20mber=Senate&zip=&x=39& y=4

Clinton's voting record puts her at #14 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 92.06%

Now Obama:

http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp? %20search=selectName&member=ILIII&am p;c%20hamber=Senate&zip=&x=28&am p;y=11

Obama's voting record puts him at #15 on the progressive scoresheet out of 100.  Progressive score 91.37%

Sure, it is close.  But if you look at all votes from either cast in their Senate careers, Clinton is actually the slightly more progressive Senator.

Go ahead, look at the votes cast in their entirety, across all areas.  It is right there for you to read.  

When it comes to another very important measure stick of "progressiveness," the co-sponsorship of legislation, Clinton comes in far, far to the left of the median (the middle) whereas Obama is actually right of the middle point.    In other words, Obama has co-sponsored a lot of right-of-center legislation, making him one of the more moderate/conservative members of Congress when it comes to co-sponsoring legislation, while Clinton is the most progressive candidate running, and one of the 3 most progressive members of Congress.  


by georgep on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:03:03 AM EST

poor george... (none / 0)

he's stuck with his foot in his mouth.  you continue to to try to compare apples and oranges because you like the results.  that's fine.  but you are clearly a hypocrite.  only idiots try to suggest the motives of others, but your prior comments about seeking decorum only exposes your hypocrisy.

as a hard scientist, i don't compare apples and oranges, or try to infer anything from there comparison.  in this case, co-sponsorships, it's even more meaningless than usual, given how co-sponsorships are solicited.  i won't mock you for your political naivete, and i will only expose your hypocrisy.  but i will say that you are wrong, you haven't proven that my premise was false (it's demonstrably true to anyone who cared to read what i wrote).  it's pathetic that you feel the need to attack a poster personally just because you don't like what they say.

just like hillary, you are becoming a cheney-lite...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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