Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change

is it a mistake for obama to say he will meet with our "enemies" without preconditions?  this raging debate seems to signal a new message, and perhaps a new approach, for barack obama.

hillary represents the past (old thinking) while barack represents change (new thinking).  for the life of me, i can't see why hillary's supporters would be so excited about this frame.

hillary has a standard line in her speech about 2008 being a "change election."  our research shows that even democrats find this a bit hypocritical on her part.  now these aren't the democrats that some of hillary's supporters imagine, but real voters.  hillary's references to the past, even a glorious past, by her account, does not seem to invoke the thought of change in voter's minds.

barack obama seems to be picking up on this.  and this is a good thing.  democrats need to understand that if hillary is the democratic nominee, republicans can successfully make the argument that the gop is the party of change.  why do you think that republicans (like areyouready) are chomping at the bit for hillary to be the democratic nominee?

partisans, probably on both sides, are offended at the comparison of hillary clinton to george bush and dick cheney.  but here's a less offensive way of saying the same thing: hillary clinton represents -- and campaigns on being -- continuity with the past.  as president, at least in foreign policy, it's difficult to think of how she'd be any different than george bush.  yeah, she says she'll withdraw from iraq, but i don't believe that.  it's not a guiding principle for her, and certainly not as important to her as not being characterized as weak.

how will she treat north korea any different than george bush?  once again, her imperative to not be seen as weak demands that she continues the multi-lateral negotiations, which really haven't gotten us anywhere.

do you really think hillary clinton is less likely to invade iran than george bush?  i'd argue that she's more likely, just because bush's popularity is so low and he has active constraints on what he can do.  bush can continue his old policies at most, he can't really start new ones.  hillary, otoh, will face mounting pressure to "do something" about iranian nuclear ambitions, from both our formal and our informal allies.

and hillary has the clinton legacy to think about.  bill clinton was the first president to allow the nuclear club to expand unchallenged.  this is unquestionably his greatest failure, reversing 50 years of american nuclear policy -- apparently because he wasn't really interested.  he had other things on his mind.

can hillary clinton allow iraq to go nuclear?  i'd bet she'd think not.  one clinton failure doesn't deserve another, she's probably thinking.  attacking iran is probably her only option in this dilemma.

hillary clinton's foreign policy won't be different from george bush's at all.  and let's be clear: this is not because george bush offered america leadership and built consensus behind his foreign policy.  it's just that hillary clinton, because of her own personal story, doesn't have the ability nor the strength to move this country beyond it.

barack obama represents real change.  just as he was willing to meet with gang kids on the southside of chicago, he's willing to meet with the people THAT GEORGE BUSH HAS DEFINED as our enemies.  hugo chavez isn't an enemy of the united states, he's an enemy of george bush's arrogance and his interventionist foreign policy.  and why shouldn't we met with the president of iran?  we've had a fscked up policy and relations with iran since the second world war.  it's time for a change.

barack obama hit this one out of the park.  it is time for a change, and this is what change looks like.  yes, cowards like hillary clinton are going to cling to past conventions (like preconditions) because they don't have the intellectual heft nor the personal strength to move forward.  barack obama does not share those weaknesses.  we are not weaker when we talk to those who oppose american hegemony in the world.  in fact, we already do that.  these are just people that offend george bush.

while hillary isn't brave enough to step away from george bush's foreign policy, thankfully barack is.  and we have a real choice in 2008, a choice between continuing the policies of the last two decades or real change, real leadership, and a better america.  the reality is that most people don't want real change, and while they may not prefer george bush, they aren't so offended by his policies.  which is why hillary is running as bush-cheney lite...


Poll
Does this country need a change in foreign policy?
Yes
No
I Don't Know
What's Foreign Policy?

Votes: 21
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

thr frame doesn't look good for her because she had to come out and defend the fact that Obama tried to blurr the line between her policy and the Bush's policy.

In my opinion, i just dont any difference between Bush's and Hillary's cowboy policy.

Both policy states that we should not talk to country that we dont agree with unless it's stricly under our term...In other words,those country has to bowdown to the U.S or we wont even talk to you.

Can anyone please tell me whether i'm wrong here?

Hillary policy is that she will only meet Castro unless he does everything she asked him to do...Same for Syria or Iran.

The problem is,her precondition wont move anything so and those country will feel like they are being bullied into talking under the U.S term while they dont get anything.

This is the same excuse Bush has used to not talk to anybody.


by JaeHood on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:47:59 AM EST

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

most of the pundits are saying this was a blunder on her part to attack Obama.
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Which pundits? (none / 0)

Not that I really care what they say but can you tell me which one's. I hadn't heard that. The one's I've heard are saying that she looks sophisticated and Obama looks like a little kid.


by abc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which pundits? (none / 0)

Who have you heard? areyouready? Sorry, not a pundit.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which pundits? (none / 0)

Lol, quite funny. meanwhile look at this new ad by the Obama team. I believe it's playing in Iowa and New Hampshire. I believe Obama has found his opening:

http://www.barackobama.com/judgmentmatte rs.html

"politics of Hope" is not the same as "politics of weakness"


by rapcetera on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

If we're going to vote change, I'll take Edwards.  


by bookgrl on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:55:29 AM EST

you think he'll still be in the race... (3.00 / 1)

when it comes time for you to vote?  i doubt he's an option for me (feb 5)...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you think he'll still be in the race... (none / 0)

I don't know.  He's still very strong in Iowa.  I thought he was going to burn out early, now I'm not so sure  Here's why.  Obama is emphasizing this as a change election but his policies are not that different, where as I have to give Edwards credit he is laying claim to a very populist agenda, and I think that could end up really reasonating with voters, particularly because his plans seem quite well thought out.  Even among the punditry that seriously seem to hate Edwards, they really only criticize Edwards plans in terms of being, according to them,  politically "unpopular" not of being unfeasible. For example, I frankly love the tax plan he rolled out yesterday.  The LA Times had all these unnamed sources talking about Mondale and how raising taxes wasn't going to go over well.  But here's the catch, Mondale was talking about raising taxes on everyone, EDwards plan is a tax cut for a majority of the voters.  Anyway, I noticed, as with his health plan, they couldn't dismiss the plan on its merits.  So, yes, if this is a change election, I wouldn't count him out.


by bookgrl on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:16:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

obviously, if edwards wins iowa... (3.00 / 1)

he'll be in for the long haul.  and polling supports his first place status in iowa right now.


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you think he'll still be in the race... (none / 0)

I think he's more likely to be there in February than Obama. I know that that is not a popular viewpoint in this discussion, but I think that the events of this week lend credence to the notion that Obama is a "flash in the pan," whose inexperience is more exposed all the time. Edwards is a known quantity who is ahead in Iowa. I say this as a Hillary supporter: I find John Edwards much, much more compelling and believable than Barack Obama.


by arkansasdemocrat on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i'll take that bet... (none / 0)


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

Edwards agrees with the Hillary and McCain/ Romney foreign policy.  


by enarjay on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

Care to back that up some how?


by Rooktoven on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 02:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

weren't you watching? He agreed with Hillary's answer.

its funny how people call Obama the overly cautious candidate...


by alipi on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The fall out is coming fast and furious. (none / 0)

I have been recieving a constant flux of emails from people inside and outside the US who see Obama as a real sign of change for the world.  Its amazing.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:13:33 AM EST

The fall out is coming fast and furious. (none / 0)

I believe Ms. O'Quinn of Washington Post said the same thing on Hardball last night. Obama is truly the agent of Change.


by ameri on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

Obama doesn't need a "friend" like Sally Quinn.

Sally Quinn is the ultimate inside the beltway cocktail weenie guru.

The self-righteous cluckers in the chattering classes? They wouldn't know change if it bit them in the....

And then we have Sally Quinn, the self-appointed arbiter of Washington's social scene. Since the White House scandal story broke in mid-January, Quinn has gabbed on the networks and cable channels, passing judgment on the president and hissing at first lady Hillary Rodman Clinton.

And then there's this astounding piece of crap.

...According to society sources, Sally invited Hillary to a luncheon when the Clintons came to town in 1993. Sally stocked her guest list with her best buddies and prepared to usher the first lady into the capital's social whirl. Apparently, Hillary didn't accept. Miffed, Sally wrote a catty piece in the Post about Mrs. Clinton. Hillary made sure that Quinn rarely made it into the White House dinners or social events.

In return, Sally started talking trash about Hillary to her buddies, and her animus became a staple of the social scene. "There's just something about her that pisses people off," Quinn is quoted as saying in a New Yorker article about Hillary....

...Of course, Washington probably wouldn't have them. The Clintons never hit it off with the capital's power elites, as Washington Post writer Sally Quinn rather intemperately reminded them during the impeachment fiasco...

...Bernstein reviews the famous welcome-to-Washington pieces penned by columnist (and wife of his former editor Ben Bradlee) Sally Quinn for the Post and Newsweek just before Clinton became First Lady in January 2003. Bernstein calls the Post column "prescient, presumptuous, nasty" and "uncharitable...."

Critical thinking also involves looking into the background and the motivations of the "opinionated" source. Given the last, oh I dunno, twenty years or so of media behavior you'd think you'd understand that.

Learn that history contains a bit more than what happened last week on cable televison.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

hahaha...CATFIGHT


by world dictator on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

It is amazing that from reading two sentences I know who wrote this.  Ameri may not be as knowledgeable, or she may be but her point is mainstream media has not been as pro-Hillary on this as some would like.  Try not insulting everyone.  Not everybody was shipped from Krypton and had an advantage of learning everything about the history of the world during the five years it took you to reach this planet Superman.


by Todd Bennett on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 05:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

Heh. I still think they should ask for their money back.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 05:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

Well you know what can I say?  Not everyone can be a Democratic chair and help to lead their county to-what exactly have you lead it to?


by Todd Bennett on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 06:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you mean Sally Quinn? (none / 0)

...what exactly have you lead it to?

Heh. We share our wisdom with those who seek it. It's a life of quiet dignity.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Every candidate out there from Obama to Hunter, from Huckabee to Hillary and everyone inbetween uses the word "change."  Every four years we hear the empty rhetoric from all the candidates about how they are going to "change" things.  Of course they leave out the fact that there are House and Senate members and a Supreme Court to deal with and no one man (or woman) can "change" all that much all that easily or all that quickly.

That is why empty talk of change should be ignored.  Tell us what you will do.  If you will meet with Castro in your first year, without pre-conditions than simply say so.  If you won't that say that.  Lets talk in crystal clear terms.

The candidates that are trailing are doing so because they are over relying on empty rhetoric.  They are peddeling cheap speeches in nice suits and ignoring reality.  They lack substance and voters notice that.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:13:52 AM EST

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

obviously, when you support the status quo candidate, the concept of change is alien to you.  the tautology is evident: you support hillary so you don't really support change.

the problem you have is that you confuse name recognition with support.  if hillary had all the support you imagine polls wouldn't fluctuate, they would stabilize.  there is no question that hillary is the default candidate, simply because she has universal name recognition.  and if she had universal support, NO ONE would contribute to or support other candidates.  what is interesting is the percentage of people who contribute to hillary and other candidates.  no one wants to risk it all on this not being a change election.

in the end, hillary loses.  what democrats have to decide is how important it is for a democrat to be in the white house.  hillary is the weakest possible candidate for democrats -- but those are the ones we always choose...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I like change. I want change. (none / 0)

I think an a intelligent, informed progressive Democrat in the White House will be a huge change from what we have seen in 8 years of a right wing, neo-conservative Republican Presidency.

I look forward to this change when Hillary Clinton takes the oath of office.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I like change. I want change. (none / 0)

It could be any Democrat really.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

What Democrats have started to realize, which is why they basically reject Obama's advances, is that Obama is really not a change candidate as much as he states he is.   A function of bi-partisanship, as touted by Obama, is the lack of substantive change and the ultimate preservation of the status quo for the most part.    That is why Clinton actually LEADS Obama in the change metric, because Obama's type of change is really not change at all to many, many Democrats.  


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Substance like this, George?


by horizonr on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. It's cosmetic. It's much ado about (none / 0)

nothing.  I think the more he talks about change the better Edwards will do.  Because he is actually staking out a populist agenda.  This "uniter/divider" frame, and Reagan talk of Obama's sounds stale compared to real policy changes Edwards is talking about.  Don't get me wrong, they would all be a welcome change from Bush, but I don't think Obama's version of change is what Democrats have in mind.


by bookgrl on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

rejecting obama?  that is not what i heard on Ed Schulz Show today.  most of the callers AGREED with Obama.  in fact, one caller said clinton will say "anything" to get the nomination, as she did on monday night, proclaiming herself a progressive.  now, we all know there is NOTHING REMOTELY progressive or liberal about Hillary Clinton.  that answer almost had my husband fall out the chair!!


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

I almost fall out of my chair everytime Obama puts the words "Ronald" and "Reagan" together in a sentence.  Sickening, actually.   Did you actually know that Obama stated in his book "Audacity of Hope" that Bush and Cheney are "normal and nice people"?    Pffft.  I don't care what some callers one some show state.  I see how he does.  In Florida, amongst Democrats, a 31% disapproval rating?   What makes him so disliked in this state?  Amongst Democrats?  Not good.   Not good at all.


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

isn't it funny... (none / 0)

how you're concerned about obama's negatives that are normative but unconcerned about hillary's that are at historic levels for a challenger???

things that make you go hmmmmm...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: isn't it funny... (none / 0)

Yeah, sure.   We are talking the PRIMARIES here.  Amongst DEMOCRATS.   Obama has high unfavorables in the group that is most important to win the nomination in the first place.  The dustup will raise his negatives even more.   Nomination before the general election.  How many times does it have to be said before it sinks in?  

Aside from the fact that your Clinton-negative point is becoming exceedingly debatable, as some polling neg. numbers in the mid-30s in recent the CBS/NYT and Opinion Dynamics polls showed, it is indeed "funny" that you are arguing with Clinton negatives amongst Republicans to rebut an argument about very high negatives for Obama amongst Democrats in all-important primary states.   There is no logic in that.  None.  You are trying to compare Apples to Oranges and pretend that they are all Apples.


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: isn't it funny... (none / 0)

we have definitely established that barack has extraordinarily high negatives among hillary supporters.  this link is so strong that there is no other statistically significant explanation.

so you are not alone.  what is more interesting to me is what happens in the general.  i know, i know, you don't care, because we all know it's more important to have hillary as the nominee than to elect a democrat as president.  but let's say that barack were to win the nomination.  what happens to his negatives?  will hillary's supporters support the democratic nominee (even the democrat whom they are determined to prevent from winning it)?

let's just say they are far more likely to vote for obama than hillary's negatives are to vote for her...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: isn't it funny... (none / 0)

Let's just say, that like your candidate, you are doing this all wrong.   The primaries BEFORE the general.  They did not change the rules for Obama, even though it appears that way.  

Obama is running a general campaign, thereby alienating many Democrats.  Clinton has the exact opposite problem.  She is very popular with the Democratic rank and file.  That is of course of utmost important for the nomination, while Obama's strategy is all wrong if the nomination is the goal.   You solidify your base (I know, you are not a Democrat, from what you stated, I believe Independent, right?) which happens to be amongst DEMOCRATS.  Only then do you reach out to Independents and Moderates.   Hey, Obama is trying a different strategy, one that looks like it turns off many Democrats.    I have no problem with that, but if it leads to a loss in the nomination process, what use is the GENERAL strategy?  All it does is make many Democrats wonder about his Democratic creds.


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 12:10:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you understand, right, that we're talking about... (none / 0)

democrats?  you know, the party that continues to nominate the "inevitable" candidate who can "win" in november (mondale, dukakis, gore & kerry)?  hillary certainly fits that theme.  you almost wonder where she got it from, because bill never ran on that (maybe in 1982).

and, yes, obama is using a different strategy.  he's running as someone who could actually win in november, not as someone who democrats think can win (because they project their own values onto the rest of the electorate).

more importantly, obama is running as someone who can lead this country.  hillary is a great leader of women, a great spokesman for CENTRIST democrats, but she's articulated no vision for the country (it's the vision thing), she brings no optimism for the future, she risks alienating not democrats but the world.

she is, without question, the single most polarizing politician outside of george bush.  yep, she's bush lite in this department, but not by much.

perhaps obama's strategy is to wake up the electorate.  i don't know.  remember, i absolutely agree with your that democrats will nominate a loser and that her campaign will depress the chances of other democrats up and down the ballot.

so far, i see nothing that indicates that she can keep her negatives outside of historic ranges when republicans unite -- something that democrats struggle to do -- and turn their attention on her...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

You know, I have no idea if ignorance is driving your comments or deliberate obfuscation.   Gore and Bradley were the only two candidates running.  Would you have Democrats choose Bradley to win?  How ridiculous a notion is that?  With Kerry we had the closest election in history.  Are you saying Dean would have had a better chance to beat Bush in 2004?  Maybe Lieberman, if that is what you want to hang your hat on, go right ahead.     Mocking Democrats the way you constantly do shows where you stand.  But worse, you apparently believe as Obama does, that DEMOCRATS are not an important factor, what they THINK is not what should be focused on.  I consider that a serious miscalculation on Obama's part, and something that shows a selling-out of the party.

Now, if what you say about Clinton's General Election chances were true (it absolutely is not, but let's for arguments sakes say it were) then Obama is a complete idiot for running the campaign he does.  It is destroying his chances for the nomination, so what good is it?  In fact, by running a campaign that does not appeal much to DEMOCRATS you are showing yourself to be a terrible strategist.  Let's say YOU had the centrist, post-partisan tendencies Obama does.  Would YOU not, to win the nomination, at first focus on those items you are in strong agreement with the left-wing of your party with, would you not be focusing strongly on Democratic values, trying to appeal to the hard-core Democrats initially.  THEN, when you have the nomination sewn up, you broaden your appeal, still, of course, make your Democratic base the most important factor, but strike some tones that give you broader appeal (such as focusing on balancing the budget, for instance.)  

 By not doing so, Obama is a candidate who by your own admission won't win the nomination.   This refusal to "follow the rules" and thereby ending up losing the nomination shows to me a lack of understanding of the process, a lack of patience, a lack of proper strategy.   I don't want a preacher or pontificator, just a hands-on administrator.  If you can't appeal to your party base, you can't win the nomination.  If you can't win the nomination, you can't be president.   Primary 101, a course Obama appears intent and even content to flunk.


by georgep on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i have no patience... (none / 0)

for the democrat's eternal stupidity.  democrats like you act as if it doesn't matter if a real democrat lives in the white house.  i know, i know, as long as you are right.

that's why i worry about protecting the senate and the house, because someone has to clean up the mess that our fellow idiots leave behind!  and, no doubt, when hillary loses, you'll start screaming about some conspiracy or other unknown unknown that made hillary lose.

your reasoning is constantly circular.  hillary dumps on obama, and suddenly more democrats than independents or republicans have unfavorable impressions of obama!  but, again, democrats enjoy being stupid.  it's genetic.

it absolutely infuriates me that democrats weren't able to stop this war -- to stop the invasion of iraq.  it could just be that being bush lites is all that democrats are about.  that's certainly true for hillary.  instead of standing up for just war principles, hillary clinton and john edwards thought they knew better.  there's nothing to respect there.

you don't have a clue about what you are talking about with how obama is running his campaign.  sure, nixon said to run to the right (or left, in our case) in the primary and to the center in the general, and you clearly buy into that.  but that was before the days of the internet, when voters were a lot more monolithic than they are now.  i can't help it that your reasoning is out-dated.  i'm just glad that obama understands that we live in a new era, not the 1990s.  while hillary has absolutely no chance to become president, obama still represents the best hope of a democratic president anytime soon.  that seems to be lost on you.  thankfully, there are people who actually get it...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 01:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Forty-two percent (42%) of Americans say that the next President should meet with the heads of nations such as Iran, Syria, and North Korea without setting any preconditions. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 34% disagree while 24% are not sure.

That question came up during last Monday's Presidential Debate with Illinois Senator Barack Obama saying he would commit to such meetings and New York Senator Hillary Clinton offering a more cautious response. Democrats, by a 55% to 22% margin, agree with Obama. Clinton and Obama continue to dominate the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination.


by BDM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Of course then Obama backpedaled right into the precondition position.


by Rooktoven on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 02:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Doesn't sound like it to me (3.00 / 1)

Here he is on Thursday:
"The Bush administration's policy is to say that he will not talk with these countries unless they meet various preconditions -- that's their explicit policy, and that was the question that was posed at the debate. This is the assertion that she made during the debate and subsequently, was that she would not meet with various leaders unless certain preconditions were met. Now, if that's not what she means, then she should say so, but that was the question that was posed at the debate."
Obama also  said: "I'm not afraid of losing the PR war to dictators...I'm not going to hide behind a bunch of rhetoric. I don't want a continuation with Bush-Cheney. I don't want Bush-Cheney light. I want a fundamental change."

One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great spin (3.00 / 1)

So Hillary is now more of a change candidate than Obama?

And Elvis lives, I presume?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great spin (none / 0)

Uh, well, many people feel that way (according to the recent CBS/NYTimes poll, ABC/WaPo poll and AP-Ipsos poll more Democrats look at Clinton as the "Change" candidate when compared to Obama.  Part of that is probably the fact that many women consider having a woman president a major, major "change" in its own right, but you also have many Democrats reject Obama's strategy of appealing to Republicans and Independents as moderate/centrist, which does not lend itself very well to true change.  


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree people don't want change... (none / 0)

which is why hillary is ahead...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you don't believe that Hillary will change (none / 0)

this country then you are crazy. It is an insult to all Democrats to say that any one of our candidates wouldn't bring about much needed change.


by abc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hillary equals continuity with the past... (none / 0)

not the change i'm looking for...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (2.00 / 1)

The only thing Obama is going to change is his underwear if he compares Hillary to Bush-Cheney again.


by DoIT on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (2.00 / 1)

that's crazy thinking. and hillary is bush-lite, she is, he only called her out on it.  what possbile change can hillary clinton bring?  she is so to the right it is not even funny.  she is so status quo, there is nothing remotely "new" or "fresh" about her.  and if we want real change, as democrats, it will be obama or edwards.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ralph Nader says the same thing (none / 0)

Obamamaniacs are now crossing over to Nader arguements.

That is hilarious.

They tried the rightwing attacks against up right up to the last debate.  She wasn't likeable, electable, warm enough etc.   Whoops - NOT.  The numbers didn't back it up those attacks and she is pulling away.

So where do they go next?  They go 180 degrees to Nader's arguement.

Funny.  Sad.  Weak.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ralph Nader says the same thing (none / 0)

Very sad.  It is even worse than how the Naderites acted, if memory serves me right.    


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:49:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny, Sad. Weak, (3.00 / 1)

like you?  Per se....


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL (3.00 / 1)

No me strong. Like Bull.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:17:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

SEN. CLINTON: "Well, this is getting kind of silly. I've been called a lot of things in my life but I've never been called George Bush or Dick Cheney certainly. We have to ask what's ever happened to the politics of hope?

"I have been saying consistently for a number of years now, we have to end the Bush era of ignoring problems, ignoring enemies and adversaries. And I have been absolutely clear that we've got to return to robust and effective diplomacy. But I don't want to see the power and prestige of the United States President put at risk by rushing into meetings with the likes of Chavez, and Castro, and Ahmadinejad."


by abc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (3.00 / 1)

But I don't want to see the power and prestige of the United States President put at risk by rushing into meetings with the likes of Chavez, and Castro, and Ahmadinejad."

That's exactly the kind of thinking we are talking about here. How would meeting Chavez, Castro, and Ahmadinejad put "the power and prestige of the Presidency" at risk?

Talk about irrational paranoia...


by Mystylplx on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

She didn't say she wouldn't meet with them. She said she wouldn't rush into it. The meeting would have to produce some kind of benefit.
by abc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Obama didn't say he would "rush into it" either.

But that's not the point--the point is that thinking a meeting with another world leader will in some mysterious way damage the office of the President is irrational and frankly paranoid. And it really is remarkably similar to the way George Bush thinks. I find it interesting that she says in a very general way that she won't be like Bush, but when it comes to specifics there's no light between them.


by Mystylplx on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

"she is so to the right it is not even funny."

how is Clinton's overall record more to the right of Obama or Edwards ??


by silver spring on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

She's certainly defining herself as much more of a hawk then either Obama or Edwards. In the first debate her answer to the question about what she would do in case of a terrorist attack could have been a George W. Bush quote. And now she seems to be saying both that she will not refuse to meet with foriegn leaders as George Bush has, and that she will refuse to meet with foriegn leaders because she thinks it will somehow damage the Presidency.

Well, which is it?


by Mystylplx on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 02:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Senate voting records.  Compare.


by Rooktoven on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 02:57:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Their Senate voting records are identical.


by silver spring on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Actually no, Obama's is considerably more liberal, or, if you prefer, "progressive."  Don't take everything Progressive Punch gives you at face value.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/7/ 27/11027/6197/75#c75

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/7/ 27/11027/6197/88#c88


by msbatxnyc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's a huge difference between barack and hillary (none / 0)

http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/s en/lib.htm

Name    Econ   Soc   Foreign Liberal
Obama, Barack   87   77   85   86
[21 others]
Clinton, Hillar 63   80   62   70.2
[3 others]
Lieberman, Joe 73   74   54   67.5

21 senators between barack and hillary.  3 senators between hillary and joe.  she's a lot closer to joe lieberman than she is to barack obama...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no question she's farther to the right... (none / 0)

http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/s en/lib.htm

Name Econ   Soc   Foreign Liberal
Obama, Barack   87   77   85   86
(21 others)
Clinton, Hillar 63   80   62   70.2
[3 others]
Lieberman, Joe 73   74   54   67.5

definitely more to the right...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Smange - show us some substance (none / 0)

Obama is too much about appealing to Republicans, which is why he constantly invokes Reagan's name (the right-wing's hero.)  

Read Taylor Marsh's piece from today:

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view .php?id=25967


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A progressive, Democratic, female President (none / 0)

Sheesh - yeah on that heals of Dubya Bush that wouldn't be a change would it?

What planet do some people live on?


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:15:24 AM EST

really??? (none / 0)

the only one of those i'd agree to is female.  the rest i wonder about...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, let Democratic primary voters have a say (none / 0)

We'll see if they agree with you.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:33:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (3.00 / 3)

I suggest a new title:

The Audacity of Libel.

Seriously, I hope there really is enough of a difference between the two of them that you don't have to exaggerate Hillary's flaws with such hyperbole just for the sake of contrast.


"If [John Edwards] seems too good to be true, well, so be it; instead, you can pick a candidate who's bad enough to be plausible." - Daily Kos user Drew
by Junior Bug on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:16:48 AM EST

on the issues important to me... (none / 0)

hillary is closer to republicans.  sue me for having an opinion.  i realize that hillary isn't exactly keen on my constitutional rights...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on the issues important to me... (3.00 / 1)

I share your distaste for Hillary, but this isn't just opinion, it's shallow supposition.  

yes, cowards like hillary clinton are going to cling to past conventions (like preconditions) because they don't have the intellectual heft nor the personal strength to move forward

I mean, come on.  That's a thoroughly ridiculous sentence.


"If [John Edwards] seems too good to be true, well, so be it; instead, you can pick a candidate who's bad enough to be plausible." - Daily Kos user Drew
by Junior Bug on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:39:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on the issues important to me... (none / 0)

What's thoroughly ridiculous is refusing to engage in dialogue with other nations just because they do things we don't like, or refuse to do what we tell them to do. In such cases there is more, and not less, need for dialogue.

Hillary Clinton is busy defining her foriegn policy philosophy as identical to George W. Bush's. Her 'find someone to attack' answer to the question of how she would deal with a terrorist attack (from the first debate) and now this. They both (Hillary and George) seem to be obsessed with seeming tough, so it's no surprise they say so many of the same things.


by Mystylplx on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what's funny... (none / 0)

is that hillary is further to the right than the economist!


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on the issues important to me... (none / 0)

Plus 3 because you're right and because you used the word supposition


by world dictator on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on the issues important to me... (3.00 / 2)

Rasmussen today's pollL

55% of democrats agree with Obama vs 22% FOR Clinton on meeting with the leaders of these nations that we are not friendly with at this time.


by BDM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on the issues important to me... (none / 0)

i like to turn a phrase.  that works for me.  is there any question what i mean?


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silly (none / 0)

Obama's entire campaign is naive and frankly, quite silly.

What else does this guy have? Empty rhetoric of change, hope, turn a page? To be surrounded by Washington consultants who have lost one election after another certainly is not a symbol of change. The more he drums up this kind of empty slogans, the more likelihood I see him fall behind Edwards. Although I disagree strong with Edwards on issues, at least he's serious on tackling domestic policies.

Obama's heavy ads could not move him up in Iowa. He's closer than ever to Richardson. People are not shopping for empty 'hope', 'Vote registration', 'Community organization', 'Living overseas from 6-10' certainly won't cut it as his qualifications. He is running for U.S. president, not running for student council president.

Please grow up, this kind of diary is getting really tiresome.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:21:33 AM EST

and now we have the republican opinion... (3.00 / 1)


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and now we have the republican opinion... (1.00 / 2)

yeah, so republican, so fraudulent, and so need to be deactivated.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is toast (3.00 / 1)

Read the press.  Read Taylor Marsh and both aricles in the Washington Post and NY Times, and many others.  

If anyone here can watch the video of Obama ranting like a lunatic, and say this is going to help him among Democrats, then you are very mistaken.

Strike Two Obama.  Question:  NOW what does he do?

Hillary must already be putting together that ad.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:23:35 AM EST

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Yeah, those two videos are really bad. CNN kept on playing last night. I hope pundits will pick them up over the weekend. It's really a shocking contrast.

Obama's 'defining' moment.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (3.00 / 2)

Haha okay, Regan: you guys can have David Brooks and Charles Krauthammer.

We'll take EJ Dionne and The Nation.

Sounds like a deal.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:14:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

For real.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

I mean, what part of the words "Democratic primary" don't these people understand?  "Ooh, she's going to win Cuban votes in Florida!"  All those Dem registered Florida Cubans are going to put her over the top b/c none of them hold any grudges against her husband and Janet Reno about Elian or anything.  The establishment is letting on about how scared they are this week.  You can tell when the rants become completely one-sided and nonsensical.  Sort of like how they sounded after Scooter Libby got convicted, or pardoned, or how they reacted to Imus.  It's finally dawning on them that we have a good chance to elect someone who will truly change things.  I wonder what will happen if Gore gets in.  Will Chris Matthews and Tim Russert just light themselves on fire?  Dare to dream.

Oh, whoops, was that hate speech?


by msbatxnyc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rasmussen Today (3.00 / 1)

In the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination, New York Senator Hillary Clinton inched up another point to 42% support among Likely Democratic Primary Voters. That's the second straight day she has reached a new high-water mark. Illinois Senator Barack Obama is a distant second at 23% while former North Carolina Senator John Edwards who is preferred by 14% (see daily history). Delaware Senator Joe Biden attracts 3% of the vote while New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson earns 2% support.

Twenty-eight percent (28%) of Likely Voters say that Clinton is the candidate they trust most on national security issues. Twenty percent (20%) named Giuliani.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:06:36 PM EST

Re: Rasmussen Today (none / 0)

That means Clinton has nearly double the support Obama does. Damn. Brutal


by world dictator on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rasmussen Today (none / 0)

Its the women....


by rapcetera on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rasmussen Today (none / 0)

Damn this infernal Gynocrisy!


by world dictator on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rasmussen Today (none / 0)

Forty-two percent (42%) of Americans say that the next President should meet with the heads of nations such as Iran, Syria, and North Korea without setting any preconditions. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 34% disagree while 24% are not sure.

That question came up during last Monday's Presidential Debate with Illinois Senator Barack Obama saying he would commit to such meetings and New York Senator Hillary Clinton offering a more cautious response. Democrats, by a 55% to 22% margin, agree with Obama. Clinton and Obama continue to dominate the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination.


by BDM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rasmussen Today (none / 0)

Look at the movement this week took in the Rasmussen poll.  It has been consistently in the 18% range for the latter part of the week (post-debate and dustup,) a margin Clinton never had in any Rasmussen poll.  Not once.  

Also, review the 28% of people who believe Clinton is the best candidate for national security.  Obama is not even close.  

I can't WAIT to see the polls that measure the "Do you agree that Obama is correct with his labelling of Clinton as Bush/Cheney Lite?"   I bet it will be almost 9 to 1 negative for Obama.  


by georgep on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Best line of the diary (3.00 / 1)

"[Obama is] willing to meet with the people that George Bush has defined as our enemies."


by horizonr on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:15:59 PM EST

Hillary Represents Change (none / 0)

Change from the current administration!

I don't understand how you can just say that "Hillary will attack Iran." You have no basis in fact.

I am proud to support Hillary for President. She is ready to lead our country from day one, and she will bring about the CHANGE we need.


by abc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:29:42 PM EST

of course... (none / 0)

i didn't say that hillary will attack iran.  and the problem with your little equation (hillary equals change) is that it's true FOR EVERY CANDIDATE RUNNING, democrat or republican.  so it's no contrast at all.  i agree, though, that hillary has to run against bush.  which is one of the reasons she loses...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ralph Nader says what? (none / 0)

Ralph running Obama's campaign now or did Obama still that message?  Maybe he could throw Ralphie a couple of bucks.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:35:18 PM EST

Because THIS dustup (none / 0)

is a terrible moment to try and convey that message.

And the use of Bush-Cheney Lite from Mr. Politics of Hope reeks of desperation.

And since Axelrod said Clitnon misconstrued Obama's point, which I think is absolutely true, then what change are we talking about?

Frankly, Obama needs to turn the page.

This EPISODE is a loser for him.


by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:43:28 PM EST

Obama: The Competence To Change? (none / 0)

Frankly the only candidate offering meaningful change is Edwards with his detail-laden comprehensive plan for healthcare, insurance regulation, etc represents change more than Obama likes to imagine he can. Unfortunately with the sub-prime problems, credit squeeze on the middle class, morgage secruities crisis, Iraq bleeding the Treasury and a financial downturn looming, I just don't see how Edwards will finance his plans, otherwise he would be the candidate to beat.

Obama's notion of change just does not even compare with Edwards more daring plans. Obama does not have universal healthcare mandated. This is where Hillary is more honest than Obama, she is not pretending to offer the kind of sweeping change Edwards is, but she is offering a compentent and comprehensive change of direction, sure footed, moderately paced. I'd take that anyday over Obama's increasingly frantic monomaniacal "change" sloganeering.


by superetendar on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:44:26 PM EST

Re: Obama: The Competence To Change? (none / 0)

I agree. As I said before, I strongly disagree with Edwards on his policis. But if we're talking about change, he is the real radical change.

All the Obama 'change' talk is getting desperate everyday.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: The Competence To Change? (none / 0)

Exactly. I think that today's  Iowa poll shows continued interest in having Edwards stick around longer in recognition of his status as a change agent. Hillary should leave Barak to stew and get back to discussing her plans. Talk done! As they say in the Islands.


by superetendar on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (3.00 / 1)

I was thinking back to the Bill Clinton campaign song - ya'll remember: /Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow, Don't stop, it'll soon be here, It'll be, better than before, Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone./ hmm. but, I thought "yesterday way pretty good"
Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:19:53 PM EST

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

Not according to the latest Rasmussen poll;

55% of democrats support Obama's position
22% support Hillary's position


by BDM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:46:46 PM EST

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

How was that poll worded again?  The devil is in the details.


by Rooktoven on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (3.00 / 1)

Exact wording from Rasmussen:

Forty-two percent (42%) of Americans say that the next President should meet with the heads of nations such as Iran, Syria, and North Korea without setting any preconditions. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 34% disagree while 24% are not sure.

That question came up during last Monday's Presidential Debate with Illinois Senator Barack Obama saying he would commit to such meetings and New York Senator Hillary Clinton offering a more cautious response. Democrats, by a 55% to 22% margin, agree with Obama. Clinton and Obama continue to dominate the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination.

This is the first polling on their positions regarding the debate question.

I know if you don't like the poll you will try to disect it to take it apart.


by BDM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:11:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

Funny.

However, just 34% of all Americans (and 34% of Democrats) know that Obama made such a commitment. Eleven percent (11%) of all Americans and 14% of Democrats believe the commitment was made by Clinton.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

So, is your assertion that Americans would reverse their positions based on biasness against Senator Obama?


by Dee on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

I haven't an assertion other than the results are funny. As I mentioned above.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

After BUSH/CHENEY... (3.00 / 1)

after "i'm the decider", after "with us or against us", NO ppl want the next commander in chief to COMMUNICATE, not keep us in a vacumn.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:53:13 PM EST

Re: After BUSH/CHENEY... (none / 0)

I agree, that's why Hillary Clinton is the way to go.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL.... (none / 0)


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 04:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

That was a kind of foolish diary. You didn't even try to reason it through. From the third sentence you had merely absorbed Obama's metaphor and wrote it out, propped up by your unadulterated antipathy toward Hillary. Imagine with me a diary that tries to reason... but this is not it. Moving on.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 03:41:08 PM EST

42% American Agree with Senator Obama (none / 0)

Rasmussen just released a poll conducted yesterday that reveals that 42% of Americans agree with Senator Obama that we should be conducting direct talks with Syria, Iran and N. Korea--WITHOUT PRECONDITIONS--and 34% dont.  The "don't" is comprised mostly of Republicans.  Also, Governor Richardson, former US Ambassador and Presidential candidate, reaffirmed his willingness too to meet with these leaders--WITHOUT PRECONDITIONS. So, most Republicans, including two Republican presidential candidates--who think the surge is working and want to invade Iran--agree with Senator Clinton.  Enough said!


by Dee on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:23:09 PM EST

Re: Hillary = The Past, Obama = Change (none / 0)

Then why did the Iraq Study Group conlude that immediate direct talks with Syria and Iran are imerative to our security interests.  They've concluded that the window of opportunity for conventional diplomacy has long past, and it's imperative that we talk now before the Iraq pullout.


by Dee on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 09:27:24 PM EST


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