Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008

Most Americans know the truth, but they are not particularly eager to reflect upon it.  There are far too many Americans living in poverty.  Far too many Americans are without hope, healthcare, or a home they can call their own.  Most Americans living in poverty are children, and for those children, the odds are not good.

Today, John Edwards begins a national effort, a national effort asking America to turn its attention away from business as usual for a week and focus, instead, upon ending the destitution and poverty that imprisons millions of Americans.  

As part of the national effort, John Edwards will retrace, in part, the historic "poverty tour" that Robert Kennedy made through eastern Kentucky in February of 1968 when he was running for President.  That tour, begun as a modest idea to focus attention on poverty in America, became an historic, national media event that echoes to this very day in our national politics.

Considering the echoes of Robert Kennedy that are in the air today, it seems an appropriate time to briefly ponder Robert Kennedy.  What are your thoughts on Robert Kennedy?  His evolution as a leader?

It is well to recall that Robert Kennedy was not a natural leader at first, or for that matter, a naturally gifted politician.  Gradually, over the course of many years, Robert Kennedy grew into something quite special.  By the time he ran for president in 1968, Robert Kennedy had evolved into a leader who felt free to speak his mind, free to speak from the heart, and free to lead for change, big change.  

His speech in Indianapolis, Indiana on April 4, 1968, following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., is often cited as one of the greatest extemporaneous political speeches in American history.  In this speech, in a somewhat unexpected moment, Robert Kennedy offered us insight into how he perceived his own individual evolution as a leader.

My favorite poet was Aeschylus. He once wrote: "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.

Pain and suffering had educated Robert Kennedy.  He had evolved.  He had become wiser.  In my first comment, I will provide greater details about Robert Kennedy that may surprise some who do not know his story.  

Here, I want to call attention to some salient points regarding Robert Kennedy that are of some relevance when considering John Edwards 2008.

Robert Kennedy was a genuine, sincere advocate for the poor and the disadvantaged, one of the strongest we have ever seen.  Yet, he was quite wealthy.  In fact, Robert Kennedy was born into vast wealth. (Interestingly, so too was FDR.)  

By contrast, Edwards was born into poverty, the son of a millworker. He was the first in his family to go to college. And through hard work, over the course of decades, he made good money to support his wife and family.  Significantly, John Edwards owes virtually his entire livelihood, his present wealth, to standing up to corporations.  To many, this aspect of John Edwards is actually heroic.

As is well known, Robert Kennedy was very supportive of the Vietnam war when it began.  (For what it is worth, so too were a majority of Americans.)  But Robert Kennedy eventually came to realize just how wrong that war was.  And he rightfully, logically, and legitimately, like John Edwards today, became a passionate opponent of a senseless, endless stupid war.

One of the quixotic parallels between Robert Kennedy and John Edwards is how the media of their respective times fixated upon their hair.  Here is how Kennedy supporter Rosa María Pegueros recalled the media's fixation with Robert Kennedy's hair in 1968:

The media were obsessed with Senator Kennedy's hair; he had a lot of it and it was always tousled and needed to be cut. I remember one night when he came to a local TV station in San Francisco. He came in exhausted, pale and particularly hirsute but he was very intense; charisma emanated from him.

In June of 1968, Time magazine put a painting of Robert Kennedy on its cover, with hair neatly groomed. In the subsequent issue, Time published a letter scathing in its derision of his hairsytle:

Sir: The cover cartoon shows the Senator's hair parted on the left, as Ted wears it (and as John did), whereas in fact Robert parts his hair on the right. Like Alice, Robert Kennedy has gone through the looking glass, where inversion and distortion, of him as well as by him, are the only possibilities. Mr. Lichtenstein is less artist than oracle.
MICHAEL G. DULICK St. Louis

With a destructive, senseless war going on in the background, a major Presidential candidate calls for bold progressive change, for bold action to lift millions out of poverty and despair.  

And the response from the media...and his detractors is...how about his hair?  

Clearly, history is beginning to repeat itself...1968 meet 2008.  



Display:


How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (3.00 / 2)

We can only hope the parallels end there, I really do not want John's life to end the way Robert's did.

It is interesting how history repeats.


by Chaoslillith on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:23:10 AM EST

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (3.00 / 3)

That is just a stupid comment.

STFU


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

Why is it stupid? I agree with it.

And, I really hope you didn't just say STFU.


by lafinur on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (2.00 / 2)

Are you blind?

I did say STFU.

Are you offended that easily?

Are you going to go cry?

Do you want a wassy?

(That's baby for "pacifier".  I was just trying to speak your language.

I'm sorry but stupidity is treated a little too kindly around here.

Stupid comments like, "Every one of the big 3 can win. They're all great!!!"

They need to be confronted.

Why?

Because they are dangerous.

They are dangerous to the well-being of the progressive movement which needs to reclaim the Democratic Party which needs to reclaim our country.

I would much rather piss off the person who made the comment and you then risk having our party nominate a sure loser.

If you agree with it then you also might want to keep the basless critiques confined limited to the voice inside your head.

By the way, which candidate are you supporting?

Are you part of Hope,Inc?

Or are you one of those, "Bill Clinton Democratic president...Hillary his wife...I am Democrat...I support Hillary" people?


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

Man, you are holding on way too tight. Just because you disagree with someone's post does not mean you should start throwing around insults. Whats up with that?? Frankly, doesn't seem very "progressive" of you. More like fascists and brown shirts come to mind!

And if someone disagrees with you then they shouldn't say it??? That reminds me more of George Bush than RFK! Guy, come back to planet earth! By the way, stop trying to pigeonhole me, asshole.

Good luck to you and good day.


by lafinur on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

I never said that they shouldn't say anything if they disagree with me.  I said that they should stop spinning.  And you're the one who called me an "asshole".  Wow.  I'm just devastated.  You just ruined my day.

You are as pathetic as it gets.

I think that progressives need to be more agressive.  That means not taking shit and not allowing BS spin to replace reality.

If that offends a few people then that is not a good thing but it's far better than allowing bullshit perception to become reality.

And both of us know that I was not saying "shut up if you disagree with me" I was saying "shut the fuck up with that bullshit".  But you took it literally.

And comparing me to Bush?

How childish.

Did I mention how pathetic you are?


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 05:54:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (3.00 / 1)

I don't think you're helping our cause here, dude.


"If [John Edwards] seems too good to be true, well, so be it; instead, you can pick a candidate who's bad enough to be plausible." - Daily Kos user Drew
by Junior Bug on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 12:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was referring to the focus on (none / 0)

both JRE and RFK's hair. I thought it was quite interesting. Before you say STFU you may want to check out my prior diaries, all pro-Edwards jackass.


by Chaoslillith on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was referring to the focus on (none / 0)

I was not saying it to you. I was replying to the person below you.  You left a very nice comment on my blog and I have been a fan of yours for a long time.  So I apologize if you think that I was referring to you.


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 05:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

I dare you to tell this man to STFU.

Ted Sorensen: Former Staff and Speechwriter for President John F. Kennedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hupgC1d-S t8

It takes more than having the same skin color to be like Kennedy. Edwards is NO Kennedy.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

Michael,

I know you mean well, but you can't do this on a blog. It's called 'flaming', and it just goes nowhere. I am trying to help you here. When I get angry, I often express it as humor. Of course, if I'm humorous, it doesn't mean I'm angry. You must control this if you want to blog.


by blues on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 01:26:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

I don't care about some ridiculous code that the netroots invented like a clique in high school.

If you can't deal with an acronym of a statement that basically means "what you said is really stupid, quit insulting my intelligence" then you need to grow up.

This nomination is WAY too important and WAY too many people are caught up in hype and false indicators.

I am not going to stand for it.

I beleive in being an aggressive advocate for the progressive movement.  It's better to cross the line occasionally (maybe I did) then to allow this kind of vapid, delerious, incoherant, debate to continue.

You are probably right about a lot of what you are saying but you dont' understand that I dont' care about any of the little cliqish netroots taboos.

To put it into an acronym I..

DGAF about who thinks it's "flaming"

There are a lot of people in the netroots who need to get over themselves and their spinelss insider lingo.


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 06:11:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (3.00 / 4)

Did you ever see or meet Robert Kennedy?

Robert Kennedy is who first politicized me and there's a direct link between my admiration of RFK and my support for John Edwards.  While there is never such a thing as a direct copy of another person, RFK is the best personification of the spirit and ideals of RFK I have seen in contemporary American politics.  The parallels are many and strong where they exist.

But most importantly, JRE shares with RFK the presence in intimate settings and on the speaker's rostrum.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

C'mon, Pete (3.00 / 1)

Did you ever see or meet Robert Kennedy?

Peter, if a point can be made one way, it can be made the other as well. I don't see how a person can not know him, and say that RFK is NOT similar to Edwards, but a person saying that RFK and Edwards share similarities is perfectly okay.

Seems like we are applying a rather convenient double-standard there.


by mihan on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How eerie, I did not know about the hair.. (none / 0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hupgC1d-S t8


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More on Robert Kennedy (3.00 / 5)

Robert Kennedy was born in 1925 into a family of considerable means. By the age of two, he was living in a 20 room mansion in Riverdale, New York. By the age of four, he was living in a 21 room mansion in Bronxville, New York.  During his youth, he spent his summers at another family home in Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, and he spent Christmas Holidays and Easter Holidays at yet another family home, this one in Palm Beach, Florida.  

Interestingly, the young Robert Kennedy attended public elementary schools through the 5th grade. However, from the sixth grade on, Robert Kennedy attended a number of very elite boarding schools, a path that eventually led to Harvard.  He went on to graduate from Harvard, then the law school at the University of Virginia.

Upon graduating from law school in 1951, Robert Kennedy made his way to Washington. Today, few people realize that one of the first jobs that Robert F. Kennedy took when he came to Washington was working for the infamous Joseph McCarthy, and together, they tried to root out communist subversives in the federal government.  

Robert Kennedy went on to become chief counsel for the Democrats in the Senate and began a long, heated public battle with Jimmy Hoffa, the leader of the teamsters union.  By the end of the 1950's, Robert Kennedy had used his legal education most notably to help Joseph McCarthy, and fight the teamsters union, not exactly the stuff of a progressive legacy. Concern for the poor and disadvantaged did not seem to be on his mind at all.

In 1960, his older brother, John F. Kennedy was elected President in an exceptionally close election.  Robert Kennedy became attorney general.  In very short order, he was confronted with the growing power of the civil rights movement and its charismatic leader, Martin Luther King, Jr. an unstoppable force.  

Robert Kennedy's first reaction was timidity and caution; he counciled slow incremental change.  But Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement were not going to fall for that, and they eventually forced Robert to reconsider his caution, causing him to come around to the cause. Nevertheless, throughout this time there was mutual suspicion between Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr.. We now know that Robert Kennedy authorized the FBI to secretly wiretap King.  

The tragic assassination of his brother, President Kennedy in 1963 affected Robert profoundly. After fits of depression and difficult introspection, Robert Kennedy emerged a very different man. In 1964, he mounted a run for Senate in New York. His first efforts at campaigning were sadly awkward:  he just didn't have it.  Eventually, much to his chagrin, it seemed that Robert Kennedy essentially won his senate election by riding the coattails of his nemesis, LBJ who won the election of 1964 in something of a landslide.    

As the Vietnam war began in earnest under Johnson in 1964 and 1965, Robert Kennedy was supportive of the war and its "expert theory" underpinnings based upon the domino theory.  In oral histories taken during this period, Robert said this:  "If you lost Vietnam, I think everybody was quite clear that the rest of Southeast Asia would fall." ( Robert Kennedy: In His Own Words, 394-395.)  Somewhat sadly, Robert believed that it "was worthwhile for psychological, political reasons" to stay in Vietnam.  (Ibid.)

As the nation evolved each year, so too did Senator Robert Kennedy.  Martin Luther King Jr. was now vocally opposing the war, and Robert Kennedy found that he too could no longer support the war. Slowly but surely, Robert Kennedy became a bold national leader, speaking his mind.  

In 1966, decades before America would finally get serious about this issue, Robert Kennedy visited South Africa to give speeches condemning apartheid. In one of the most famous passages from his Capetown speech, he said this:

It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.

In 1968, Robert Kennedy took the bold, unprecedented step of visiting a little known union organizer on a hunger strike in the fields of California, Cesar Chavez.  In short, Robert Kennedy began to break the political rules with impunity.

To his detractors, the boldness, the bigness of the evolved Robert Kennedy was simply insincere opportunism and ambition. In particular, some decried the fact that the true anti-war candidate in 1968 was not Robert Kennedy, but instead, Eugene McCarthy.  College students in particular, seemed loath to leave the anti-war candidate Eugene McCarthy for the more mainstream Robert Kennedy.

Yet, in parallels to 2008, some saw Robert Kennedy as a worthy antidote to LBJ, a strangely stubborn President, a traditional Texan who seemed paralyzed by the very idea of admitting a mistake.  Here is a letter published in Time magazine in June of 1968:

Sir: If there's one thing R.F.K. has shown himself good at, it's recognizing past errors of judgment (cf. the significant difference between his early and recent positions on Joe McCarthy, civil rights, Cuba and Viet Nam). How many lives would have been saved if L.B.J. had this same quality?
CHARLES Louis JAGODA Huntington, N.Y.

In that same Time magazine issue from 1968, there is a fun historical letter from Barbara Streisand, a letter which presages somewhat, the puzzling division (?) between Obama and Edwards supporters:  


Sir: TIME lists me among the supporters
of Senator Kennedy [May 31]. I support
Senator McCarthy. When political figures
seek our support, we have little to lend
but our presence, represented by our
names.
BARBRA STREISAND
Los Angeles

Hmmm....


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:43:11 AM EST

Great diary - thanks! (3.00 / 1)


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More on Robert Kennedy (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for that overview.  I knew all that yet it was good to read it again in such a good summary.  

It is important to know how personal experience shapes each of us as well as our leaders.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:01:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More on Robert Kennedy (3.00 / 2)

I like your use of narrative around the evolution of RFK over time.  However, if you've read what I consider the finest account of Robert Kennedy and his life, Arthur Schlesinger's "Robert Kennedy and His Times", you'll get a much different understanding of RFK's initial work fighting communism and taking on corruption (the latter is very interesting in light of his deep friendship with Walter Reuther, greatest union leader of the modern era, of the UAW...RFK thought unions were great and was committed to them working, so he wanted to make sure there was no way Big Business could deflect from their importance and necessity by focusing on the bad apples).  

I also recommend reading that book for a very interesting look at the beginnings of Vietnam, how it almost ended (and how American politics would have changed), and how the inside-outside work to end the Vietnam worked in the 70s.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As the proprietor (3.00 / 3)

of ProgressiveHistorians, a community site dedicated to the intersection of history and politics, I would be honored if you would cross-post this excellent diary there.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:23:04 AM EST

Thanks for the Invitiation (3.00 / 1)

I just posted it there.


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

thats a TALL order you're trying to push.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:35:11 AM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Not really. I would never say Edward is the second coming of RFK, but there are quite a few similarities to their politics and their evolution.


Netroots Director for Oregon Senate Candidate Jeff Merkley
by Sarah Lane on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:26:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Similarities and Differences (3.00 / 2)

I am not "pushing" a TALL order in particular.  I see similarities, and I see differences between them...and point out both in the diary.  

I can amplify on some of the differences if you like.  Robert Kennedy was born into vast wealth and never had to worry about supporting himself or his family.  John Edwards was born into a poor family, and as an adult, had to spend decades working to support his family, and even then after decades of adult work, likely has less wealth than Robert Kennedy had when he was 1 years old.

As an adult, Robert Kennedy was NOT a naturally gifted speaker.  It took him decades to reach the point where he was comfortable as a public speaker.  By contrast, John Edwards seems to have discovered his gift as a speaker fairly early in his adult life.  

Some similarities?  Both experienced profound personal tragedies in their families. Edwards lost his son Wade...which propelled him into politics; Robert lost his brother John which more than anything turned him toward greater compassion.  

Both evolved as leaders, going from relative moderates (Edwards from 1998-2000; Kennedy from 1951-1963) to more progressives (Edwards 2002-; Kennedy from 1965-).  

At some point, both decided that in order to actually lead, they had to set aside cautious, incremental political speech, and instead, speak their minds, and lead from the heart. The result?  Bold proposals from both...Edwards 2008, Kennedy 1968.  And clearly, both are historical, national advocates for the poor and the disenfranchised.

More Differences?  Kennedy rode the coattails and connections of his family and, yes, his brother. It is interesting to ponder what Robert would have accomplished politically...had he not had these coattails and connections.

By contrast, John Edwards has never had any such benefits. He is a self-made man. He is where he is because of grit, determination, and the hard work that he inspires in his supporters.  


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 2)

As someone who has read every piece of material I could ever find on JFK and RFK, I believe that Edwards is drawing parrallels to RFK's campaign of hope that ended so tragically. This is our chance to see that vision revived once again, and I am ready to fight for it!!


by RDemocrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:10:53 AM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

You and me both.  

I thought about this the other day.  I can't imagine anyone assasinating John Edwards these days, even though he is shaking things up politically like RFK did.  They don't need to actually have people shot anymore - it's a lot easier to have the media and elite opinion-leaders bury them alive.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:21:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

I would hope too, that America has turned a corner and would not fall for that again. As you said though, it is easier nowadays to destroy hope without bullets!!


by RDemocrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:49:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Some conservatives are calling Fred Thompson a "southern fried Ronald Reagan".

I think that John Edwards is a "southern fried Bobby Kennedy".


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:11:09 AM EST

RFK (none / 0)

RFK had the establishment behind him, but with Bill Clinton, the establishment is behind Hillary. RFK although supported LBJ's earlier efforts, he didn't support ground troops in an unpopular war and John Edwards fully supported the war at first.


by olawakandi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:23:38 AM EST

Just want to add (3.00 / 1)

RFK supported the early efforts of his brother to intervene in Vietnam. IMO, they both gave early support of horrible wars. They both learned that their decision to support intervention was wrong. They both came out publicly and recanted their support, admitted they were wrong and became anti-war advocates.


Netroots Director for Oregon Senate Candidate Jeff Merkley
by Sarah Lane on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hubert Humphrey was the Establishment Candidate (none / 0)

Actually, Robert was explicitly supportive of Johnson's Vietnam war efforts in 1964 and 1965.  It was well accepted by the electorate in 1968 that Robert supported the war, then changed his mind to oppose it.  (For what it's worth, this generally matched the arc of the majority of voters in America.)  Your distinction is revisionism.

And, in 1968, the establishement candidate was Hubert Humphey, not RFK.  If you are interested, here are the delegate totals on the day Robert was shot.

Hubert Humphrey 561
Robert Kennedy 393
Eugene McCarthy 258

These came from the 1968 Election entry on Wikipedia which I think accurately describes how the party was divided between the top three candidates in 1968. Humphrey was the establishment candidate. Check it out.

Not surprsingly, the 1968 election bears some very pronounced similarities to the 2008 election.  In particular, you can roughly compare Hillary Clinton to Hubert Humphrey, Robert Kennedy to John Edwards, and Eugene McCarthy to Barack Obama.  

Then again, there are some fascinating differences too.


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hubert Humphrey (none / 0)

Ironically, Johnson may have actually taken a harder line on Vietnam to prevent being outflanked by RFK, who was one of the more hawkish members of his brother's administration.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 06:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh Please! (none / 0)

RFK was an intelligent charismatic guy who had a lot of people behind him.

JE consistently comes accross as schmarmy and unintelligent. For christ's sakes, look at how he answers questions about his war vote. He doesn't deny, he doesn't evade, he just rambles...

RFK is entirley out of JE's league.


by alipi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 10:36:57 AM EST

Re: Oh Please! (none / 0)

Wrong. Edwards has said repeatedly, flat out that he was wrong to vote for the IWR. He doesn't ramble, it's as clear as day that he regrets and knows his vote was a mistake. Just like it was clear as day when RFK went public with his opposition to the Vietnam War. Look, RFK is my favorite pol of all time and I would never say Edwards = RFK, but their political evolution is strikingly similar as well as their advocacy for the rural and urban poor.


Netroots Director for Oregon Senate Candidate Jeff Merkley
by Sarah Lane on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:31:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Wow.  That is without a doubt the stupidest comment I have ever read.  It makes the comments above (that make the same point) sound intelligent.

Many of the very media elite who have done their best to tear down the Edwards campaign will admit that he is running the most substantive, policy-based campaign in either party.

The phrase "unparalleled depth" has been used on numerous occasions.

You don't give specifics, you don't seem to realize how many times he has led on the issue of the war since 2005 and you don't relize that like RFK Edwards changed his mind about an unjust war.

Giving Edwards shit over his initial support for the war in Iraq would be just like giving shit to RFK for his initial support of wider involvement in Vietnam.

They both went through a very genuine political evoltion sparked (at least partially) by devastating personal experiences.  

They both based their campaigns on outspoken opposition to an unjust war and economic equality.

They both put a spotlight on the issue of poverty when many felt like the country was tired of hearing about it.

They both were/are the best representative and communicator of their party's core values as well as being the party's most electable candidate.

They both challenged their party to embrace it's core values and oppose unjust wars more vigorously.

Unlike Hillary and Obama who throw the party under a bus whenever they want to look more moderate.

That's about all the response your ridiculous comment deserves.


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:15:07 AM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

It isn't a stupid comment if John Edwards was ahead in the polls. He would be ahead at this point. The public isn't buying his conversion from authorizing the president from using force in Iraq. The voters have gave the Democratic congress failing remarks because they gave the money to Bush for the war when they ran on anti-war pledges. It isn't stupid to want a candidate that was against the war from the very start. And Edwards sagging polls are showing it.


by olawakandi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Would you have bought RFK's withdrawal of support to the intervention in Vietnam? Maybe you were around when that was going on, what did you think then?


Netroots Director for Oregon Senate Candidate Jeff Merkley
by Sarah Lane on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

I stated before, RFK supported the intervention but not ground troops. I think that is a difference.


by olawakandi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

I think you are spliting hairs to justify your views of Kennedy versus who you are possibly supporting this time around. In others- do whatever contortions you need to do to say war isn't war, but you are still holding a double standard by which you are judging the two men. And as for whether you 'buy' it or not - it seems more about your cynacism than Edwards.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:49:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

So your analysis of the substance is based on polling data. Well, there you go. You told the above poster from where you are basing your 'substantive' views of race.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

No, I stated that some people only want candidates that were against the war from the outset. And some people accept people's conversions. And people aren't forgiving of that.


by olawakandi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

National polls mean nothing. Obviously you don't know much about primary polling.

These national polls include far too many non-caucus and primary goers.  Because they won't vote their opinion doesn't matter.

They just answer "Hillary" or "Obama" because that is the name they know.

And we don't have a national primary.

We have a sequential primary.

Iowa-the same state that caused John Kerry to go from 10% to 50% in a month in those national polls you love so month is Edwards country.

ESC averaged the last 5 credible Iowa polls (ARG is not credible) and look what they found...

Edwards - 29.8%
Obama - 20.4%
Clinton - 19.6%
Richardson - 10.6%


The bold progressive leader is the most electable candidate. Reclaim the Democratic Party! Support John Edwards.
by Michael 4 Edwards on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 02:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

Contrary to what you seem to be implying, I believe many antiwar people in 1968 didn't forgive RFK's earlier position on the war, or didn't quite trust his new position, and saw his entry into the race and his positioning on the war as opportunistic. If the web had been around then, the flame wars between McCarthy and RFK supporters would probably have been as bad as those here....If I'm remembering correctly...


by skeptica on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 06:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

Excellent diary.  They are both fighting for the same thing: economic and social justice in America.  


by littafi on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:19:54 AM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

Besides loosing a great representative for the poor and working families of America, the assassination of Bobby Kennedy resulted in the lose, from the Democratic Party, of the poor, from urban and rural areas. These folks drifted to the populist campaign of George Wallace, and eventually became Reagan Democrats. John Edwards has a message that easily re-connects these voters with the Democratic Party. The progressive populist campaign that JRE is conducting can expand the base of the Democratic Party with a resulting overwhelming Democratic majority in Congress.


by jfoster on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:39:55 AM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (1.00 / 1)

I think the haircut is not a non-issue like the Edwards campaign wants to make it out to be. He charged a personal expense to his campaign. I bet somebody who gave $20 to the John Edwards campaign would be kind of peeved about that.


by Pope Jeremy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:35:52 PM EST

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

As someone who's given $20 here and there, $250 when I could, and $250 when I shouldn't have, I'm not flustered by this at all.

There was a mistake on which card gets charged.  No big deal.  People who've worked on a campaign know that stuff like this can happen - you work to make sure it doesn't, because you know people will run with it.  But we all know that it's not like John Edwards was trying to save $400 personally by charging it to the campaign so donors would foot the bill.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:34:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

What a tortuous load of baloney!  Given our choices we can do worse than John Edwards as president, but this attempt to link him to Robert Kennedy is just outright silly.  

The comparisons on the war positions is particularly delusional.  For starters Bobby Kennedy's early position in support of the Vietnam was that he bought into the "falling dominos theory".  Links between the Soviets to Hanoi leaders and to some extent links between China and N. Vietnam were the dominant political fact of the situation.  Remember this is the height of the Cold War and the Vietnam conflict was shaping up to become a battle by proxy between the 2 superpowers.

Later when Bobby Kennedy opposed the war it was more against the endless escalations (the 60's-70's term for "surge") and the realization that the cost was too high to justify the conflict.  He never conceeded that the reasons for the US to go to war were faulty.

Part of the criticism of John Edwards is that he had ample time to learn from the dreadful mistake the U.S. made by getting deeply involved in the Vietnam conflict based on fuzzy motivations.  He had every opportunity to learn from history.

But in 2002, in the absence of any larger superpower struggle but with the sole evidence of some tenuous "intelligence" about WMD, John Edwards not only voted for but sponsored the resolution to authorize force in Iraq.  Why?  Bob Graham was the chair of the same senate intelligence committee that Edwards served on and he voted against the resolution.

Could it be that Edwards had similar motivations to Kerry and Hillary?  Could it all be that they didn't have the guts to do the right thing in the face of the war hysteria of 2002 and the opportunity to campaign for the presidency?

The resolution wasn't a throw away vote.  War was at stake.  Democrats may not like to hear it and I've been told that I'm abandoning the party.  But guess what?  The party abandoned the American people by not being an opposition party in Oct. 2002 and by not standing up to Bush in that resolution.

Sorry folks, I'm one of those people who think that an "apology" and change of position doesn't make up for the hundreds of thousands dead and millions maimed or displaced and the countless new problems created for that region.

This isn't 20-20 hindsight talking.  I was at rallys in 2002 listening to labor leaders, theologians and Studs Terkel talk about the insanity of spending so many of our resources attacking Saddam when domestic needs required attention.  That's right, John Edwards vote in Oct. 2002 supported policies that helped to divert resources away from programs that could have helped elevate people from poverty.

Bobby Kennedy's death was tragic and effected me deeply at the time.  I would have liked to see him become president but in reality it is hard to say how successful he would have been in the White House.  It's sad to see his memory and charisma evoked in this way.

Meanwhile Edwards "conversion" to oppose the war comes too little, too late for me to trust.  He has showed me that on the biggest issues of our time his judgement and courage are suspect.  For the love of my children and hope for their future, I cannot in good conscience give him a free pass on his resolution vote.


by Satya on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:22:02 PM EST

Clear, Dominant Facts or Fuzzy Motivations? (none / 0)

Satya, I thought it was more akin to pepperoni. :)  As my diary pointed out, there are similarites and there are differences between the two. Nowhere do I suggest full equivalency. I asked for everyone's thoughts on Bobby, and I certainly got yours.

With some hesitation at wading back into Vietnam (Yipes)...I am curious about this juxtaposition in your comment.

First, you suggest that by 1968, Bobby STILL believed in the domino theory that caused him to support the war at the very beginning.  He simply opposed the war in 1968 because the costs were no longer worth the benefits. Hmmm...

You tell us the domino theory was a "dominant political fact," the one that caused Bobby and all the other political leaders at that time to support the Vietnam war.  Okay, so the reason for the Vietnam war was solid and well understood by all.  

But then, you tell us this:

Part of the criticism of John Edwards is that he had ample time to learn from the dreadful mistake the U.S. made by getting deeply involved in the Vietnam conflict based on fuzzy motivations.  He had every opportunity to learn from history.

You are contradicting yourself here. Was the Vietnam war launched for clear, politically dominant reasons?  Or, was it based upon "fuzzy motivations," and Edwards should have known that "fuzzy reasons" are bad reasons to start wars? Which is it?  (Not that I care for any of these conflicts...but out of curiousity...were the reasons for Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Kuwait fuzzy or politically dominant?)

And, here is an interesting question which is curiously, rarely asked in the blogosphere:  what if Kerry/Edwards had won in 2004?  Would we still be in Iraq? I think not.

(Before you answer...consider this...if you think that where we are today in Iraq was wholly inevitable, from the first shot fired, regardless of who was directing the effort, then you must absolve Bush of responsibility with respect to all the mistakes he has made after that first shot was fired.  They were irrelevant because all the results were inevitable.  I suspect you will not agree with this.)  


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Hi Demo37,

OK, maybe more like head cheese.  ;-)

1. I'm saying that RFK was fully on board the domino theory early in the war.  (early = 60-65)  I have no idea what he thought of it in 68 and so I don't say anything about that.  That is you reading between the lines.  But based on my memory and reading of his remarks the growing toll of the war was too much for him to tolerate and the main reason for his position in 68.  Still, I believe he never conceded that US involvement in that war was not justified.

2. <He simply opposed the war in 1968>  "Simply" is your word not mine.

3. I most definitely did not say that the domino theory was the dominant fact.  The dominant political facts early in the war were about the ties between Hanoi and the Soviets and even to some extent the Chinese.  This situation occurred at the height of the cold war which gave the ties an ominous appearance to many Americans.

4. I did not elaborate on the reasons our country went to war in Vietnam but only said we became "deeply involved in the Vietnam conflict based on fuzzy motivations."  I hoped that I would be able to leave it at that on a web site of intelligent progressives.  But perhaps very few people online studied the history of that time in  depth.  That would be a pity because the experience of the Vietnam War has been a major influence on policy up until the present day.  By the way I personally think that from the beginning the domino theory was crap and that from 68 on most Americans could not find a reason for us to be in Vietnam.

So to reconfirm, I believe that Edwards should have known that "fuzzy motivations" are bad reasons to start wars.

5. <What if Kerry/Edwards had won in 2004?  Would we still be in Iraq? I think not.>   I personally don't care to get much into that hypothetical but I will say the Cheney-Bush administration had the Iraq occupation so screwed up by Jan 2005 (when Kerry would have taken office) that JK and JE had some serious challenges on their hands.

By the way Kerry has even more credibility problems than Edwards on the Iraq war.  Kerry served in Vietnam and returned to protest against it.  He knew about the lying, waste and destruction.  He knew it was not a just cause.  He knew first hand that war is limited in what it can achieve.  So in 2002 he votes for the resolution anyway.

One thing we should be discussing more is the growing militarism in this country and whether that is a healthy trend for our future.

I highly recommend two books relevant to this thread:

The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War  by Andrew J. Bacevich

Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone  by Rajiv Chandrasekaran


by Satya on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 12:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the Elaboration (none / 0)

Commenting on your points...

I would actually say that there was a dominant political belief, a clear underlying rationale that launched and sustained the Vietnam war, and that was the domino theory (which included knowledge that the Chinese and Soviets were aiding the VC). Even as a progressive, I am not sure I would call this launching and sustaining rationale "fuzzy."  Instead, I might call it wrong, or overly academic, overbroad or, nevertheless, subject to a cost/benefit analysis.  

It is also my read that Robert Kennedy subscribed to this rationale from 60-65. And, I also believe, as you surmise, that even in 1965-68, Robert Kennedy still believed in the domino theory, and he still believed that the war, ideally, should be fought and won.

But...because he began to see the moral repugnance of this war, and all wars, he was actively working toward forcing the Johnson administration to take a different path, and instead of bombing people, sign a peace treaty on what some considered, less then favorable terms. He wanted to push and push harder for a peace treaty.

As far as the course of the Iraq war, I think hubris, incompetence, stupidity, wishful thinking, and greed, are responsible for half the problems in Iraq. I do not think that where we are today was necessarily inevitable except to the extent that Bush was inevitable.  I thought we could beat him in 2004, and had he lost, we would not be in Iraq now.  

I think the AUMF had virtually nothing to do with whether Bush was going to start the Iraq war. And I am not entirely sure what the lessons are from the many wars started for very fuzzy reasons:  Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia and Kuwait. Further, I am not entirely sure what lesson every Senator must learn from these fuzzy wars...though I could give it some thought...and do a diary I suppose.

I think that every country is vulnerable to militarism, but the United States perhaps particularly so.  And, assuredly, we must do our best to counter militarism.


by Demo37 on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 01:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the Elaboration (none / 0)

"I would actually say that there was a dominant political belief, a clear underlying rationale that launched and sustained the Vietnam war, and that was the domino theory."

That was the justification most frequently sold to the American public but it was hardly clear how this was going to happen and it was based on some very faulty assumptions.  It was the bumper sticker slogan of its day and too simplistic.

Too many policy makers at the time:

* Overlooked early opportunities for less drastic solutions than war.
* Overlooked regional diplomatic options.
* Failed to understand the history and cultures we were engaging in conflict and of the countries in the region.
* Failed to understand the mindset of the "enemies".
* Regarded all communist political entities as one huge block.
* Were more concerned about positioning themselves politically in the US than what impact they might have on Vietnam.

In order to prevent dominos from falling we propped up the inept, corrupt dictator Diem.

These errors in judgement are quite typical of a lot of American foreign policy through the decades.

This doesn't touch on the military lessons that were learned that surfaced in the Weinberger and Powell doctrines.

I'm not sure that more Democratic opposition to the AUMF would have prevented the war.  But if the Dems could have all voted against it, there might have been a valuable delay in which some of the hysteria could disipate.  If Kerry and Edwards had stood against it they would have had a better chance in the 2004 election.  Kerry's dance around the issue in 2004 was one of his bigger embarrassments.

I see the AUMF as having increased the damage to Democratic credibility.  If they can't feel free to vote against bad ideas, why are they there?


by Satya on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 01:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Despite his vote on the IWRA, Kerry did not support the invasion. He was never the hawk on the Iraq war that Edwards started out as. E.g., well before the vote on the authorization, during the summer of 2002 (when Rather and company had already made it sounds as if war with Iraq was inevitable and Biden had held his very brief pseudo-hearings that failed to examine the case for war), I believe that Kerry wrote an op-ed strongly against the path that Bush seemed to be on and at the least continued to warn against precipitous and unilateral action.


by skeptica on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 07:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (none / 0)

Robert Kennedy had more hardcore experience than John Edwards. John Edwards, while I prefer him in the current field, is not in the same league, yet. Robert had more varied background in adminitration than Edwards at the same points in time. Also Robert Kennedy was from a family of influence and power while Edwards is a self made person from a southern state. I am not pointing these out to denigrate Edwards or Bobby Kennedy. Just that the diary is stretching it a big when making a comparison.


by Pravin on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:43:43 PM EST

Robert in Washington, DC (none / 0)

Robert had much more Washington, DC experience when he ran in 1968.  This actually cut in two opposite directions for Robert.

On the downside, Robert Kennedy had a very bad temper, and a very bad habit of trying to humiliate those who got in his way.  (Perhaps it was his religiousity, but Robert had an unnerving tendency to talk down to his opponents.)  People change when they are...?  

Among the power players in Washington, DC, Robert had a reputation for being self-serving...and ruthless...the opposite of a team player.  By 1968, Robert's "experience" had made hundreds of political enemies across the United States, many of them in positions of very high power. The mayors of Los Angeles and Chicago, in particular, literally hated the ground that he walked upon.  

On the plus side, Robert certainly understood the playing field in Washington, DC, the presidency, and he had very strong political connections to those who were his friends.  

Edwards is different.  He has NEVER led through humiliation and anger.  (And that bothers some in the blogosphere who like to see opponents "nailed.")  Edwards was very well liked in the Senate and can certainly play that game as well as the next.  He retains much good will.  Nobody hates John Edwards.  

Yet, if an Edwards presidency is to be successful in causing big change, his power will have to come from the people. Insiders can cause incremental change, but big change must come from the people. So far, it is not there. Time will tell.  


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Robert Kennedy 1968...Meet John Edwards 2008 (3.00 / 1)

Demo37,

May I just say- having been disappointed in the supporters of all candidates on this blog: your analysis using history is well done. You raise the bar a bit when it comes to these things. I say this having read all of your coments along this thread.


by bruh21 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:24:49 PM EST

Thanks (none / 0)

bruh21,

Thanks...I try my best.


by Demo37 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 07:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There Really Is An Odd Resonance... (none / 0)

Robert Kennedy was a very complex individual. I knew of him at a time in my life when the whole world was upside-down. Like it is now. It would be my guess that he would be a better person to know than his brother John. JFK's surreal affair with Marilyn Monroe was... just surreal. The guy had an ego that was way too enormous for anyone.

This is from Wikipedia:

Monroe's last home was in Brentwood in Los Angeles. She was found dead by her housekeeper on August 5, 1962. Her death was ruled as an overdose of sleeping pills. Questions remain about the circumstances and timeline of housekeeper Eunice Murray's discovery of Monroe's body. Also, some conspiracy theories involve John and Robert Kennedy.

By all accounts, Robert just could not cope with the bizarreness of the situation, but no one could have, in my estimation.

Wikipedia again:

Marilyn Monroe was born under the name of Norma Jeane Mortenson[1] in the charity ward of the Los Angeles County Hospital.[2][3] According to biographer Fred Lawrence Guiles, her grandmother, Della Monroe Grainger, had her baptized Norma Jeane Baker by Aimee Semple McPherson.[2] She obtained an order from the City Court of the State of New York and legally changed her name to Marilyn Monroe on February 23, 1956.

Strange days indeed. I get the sense that Robert essentially emerged out from under John's absurd ego after JFK was wacked by a certain agency. Then they wacked him.

They both had significant flaws, and John's were decidedly worse. Yet they were both recklessly heroic in the way that compels a dazzling sense of romance.

Then we got stuck with LBJ. The Big Rat. He was almost as bad as bush in many ways, yet he was oddly 'liberal' in some convoluted way.

Nothing like a stint in the Oval Office to cameo the basic insanity of humankind.

Mao and, to a much lesser extent, FDR, had monumental ego issues.

If it's going to be Edwards, or Clinton, or Obama, I am fairly sure Edwards would be the one to keep those ego issues under some degree of control.


by blues on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 02:29:05 AM EST


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