NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Getting a Free Pass on Iraq?"

Over at First Read, NBC's news fairly robust and often updated politics blog, Mark Murray asks an interesting question: "Is Hillary Getting a Free Pass on Iraq?"

Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton -- who was for the Iraq war before she was against it -- has been getting mostly a free pass as she's morphed into an antiwar candidate. Just check out today's Des Moines Register's coverage of her speech yesterday on Iraq. There's a picture of Hillary standing behind a lectern that says "The Plan to End the War." Then there's her quote: "Our message to the president is clear. It is time to begin ending this war -- not next year, not next month, but today." Yet the article doesn't mention that just a year ago, she said that setting a "date certain" for withdrawal was a mistake, which produced boos from the liberal audience that heard the speech. It also barely mentioned (in just one sentence) her 2002 vote to authorize the war.  

And it's just not this Des Moines Register piece. When Clinton was asked at CNN's debate last month about her new antiwar views, she simply changed the subject. On her last-minute vote against the compromise war-funding bill, Clinton answered: "The differences among us are minor. The differences between us and the Republicans are major. And I don't want anybody in America to be confused." And when asked why she voted for every previous war-spending bill until that one, she responded: "Unfortunately, we don't have a president who is willing to change course. And I think it was time to say enough is enough... Everybody on this stage, we are all united... We all believe that we need to try to end this war."

[...]

Her campaign, in fact, deserves plenty of kudos in making Clinton sound like Dennis Kucinich when it comes to Iraq. As of now, they have turned a major weakness into a strength -- which comes at the same time as Clinton has increased her lead in the polls. And if she goes on to win the Democratic nomination, it will be one of the big reasons for her success.

My feelings tend to align with the last paragraph quoted above -- all the better for her campaign for being able to somehow spin a position that is at least somewhat to the right of that of much of the rest of the Democratic field into one that looks about the same as that of much of the rest of Democratic field. A campaign that is that politically and strategically deft is one that can win a primary election and one that can win a general election.

But I think the largest knock on Clinton is not that she is not an immensely talented candidate or that her campaign is not run with less flaws than most others. Instead, folks are concerned that her positions aren't the right ones and that she has taken stances in the past that, however politically popular at the time, did not pan out. Clinton's initial support for the Iraq War was an important one. So, too, was her opposition, until last year, to setting a hard timeline for the withdrawal of U.S. military forces from Iraq. So, too, (though perhaps slightly less so) is her seeming support for residual forces in Iraq.

To this end, I think it is important to hash out these differences. For certain the debate format used thus far has been atrocious and has done a lot to help obscure differences between candidates. Far better was the format used at last month's AFSCME presidential forum in which the moderator had 12 minutes to ask each candidate in attendence questions -- giving the moderator the opportunity to ask the same question to different candidates without having a hand-raising exercise and the candidate the opportunity to answer questions at greater length, if necessary.

But it probably wouldn't hurt for the media to take a more serious look at the differences in the candidates' stances -- even if their rhetoric is roughly the same. In this vein, perhaps NBC should, in addition to publishing a blog post that will be read by a few thousand people, run the same story and others like it on its evening news, which is viewed by a few million people. Such a move would probably negate the need for such questions and headlines in the first place.



Display:


Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (3.00 / 0)

Don't count on the media making the case for the other candidates. That is probably something Obama and Edwards are going to have to find a way to do themselves.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:14:07 PM EST

Judgement > Experience (3.00 / 0)

i agree that Edwards and Obama has to be the one to go hard after her and the media should take it from there.

Obama has started doing just that and the media is picking it up.

It's important for Obama to keep this tone up and keep beating this drum..He shouldn't let go...He should drop the "you don't get no do-over" zing every chances he gets and the media should pick it up.

Obama needs a stronger metaphor then the "turn the page"...He needs something that the voters would clearly understands what he means..

He should frame the Clintons has the past and the need to move forward, not backward.

He needs to make the case why good judgement is more important the experience.\

Look at all the experience Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney had and look at the mess they've created....

Obama....

Judgement> experience


by JaeHood on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:56:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement > Experience (3.00 / 1)

If your criterion for a presidential candidate is who was first to oppose the war I commend you for having the guts to stand by Dennis Kuchinch


by world dictator on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 1)

I agree. The media shouldn't be making the case for any candidate. And, I don't think they are making the case of Hillary Clinton either.

They appear to be reporting what she said, who she said it to, and how the audience reacted. It's just that when all the news seems to be good re: Hillary other campaigns and their supporters feel it's not fair.


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:25:23 PM EST

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Well, it's the job of the other campaigns to hang it around her neck. If they can't make it stick, then it's on them.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

No one is making Hillary attend Rupert Murdoch's fundraisers for her.
Now if NBC's Brian Williams sponsored fundraisers for Giuliani - probably some Dems would be screaming about it.
But here we are - NewsCorp funding Hillary's campaign - and her supporters claim we're just complaining because Hillary is ahead. No - after selling her soul to Murdoch - we'd be surprised if she weren't.
In some societies fusing the media with government is seen as fascism - but we're so accustomed to Bush's fascism - it's barely noticed anymore.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Have you never heard the phrase:

"Keep you friends close, but keep you enemies closer"? She's just keeping Murdoch close.

It's shear hyperbole to state that she sold her soul to Murdoch.


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

It's not just the 24/7 pro-Hillary media coverage - regardless of her performance. It's like PBS and Tavis Smiley removing their poll within a few hours showing Edwards had gained the most support during the last debate.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Yeah, I used to like Tavis. He's turned out to be a sorry ass sell-out.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Hey stop hating becos he recognized like everyone did that Hillary outperformed everyone else with her deep knowledge of issue.

Don't hate,congratulate.


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

You know not to which you refer Bebe.

At this year's "State of Black America" conference Tavis essentially hosted a "hate Obama" orgy because Obama dare not schedule his campaign announcement around the conference.

Yeah, Hillary really displayed a deep knowledge of the ability to pander. So...congratulations!!

I know that's works on your type...if you know what I mean.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Hey thats obviously very predictable of you,the insinuations you are trying to make,I already noticed it in a couple of your post,If you cannot admit that Hillary showed a command of the issues at that particular debate then may be you have some issues you need to work out with your self esteem,Obama is rising above the insinuations you are trying to make,but is too bad you are still stuck in that mentality

" If you know what i mean".  


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

I usually watch him every night and especially his all day Black America programs.
But yeah - hes $old his $oul. Sad. Murdoch is powerful!
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 0)

Media should provide context. There are a lot of different ways to answer the who, what, where, when why and how. Would it been inappropriate for a newspaper to contrast her current Iraq war rhetoric with her past Iraq war rhetoric? The fact that they don't do this (for most issues or most politicians) is the reason our political leaders get away with as much as they do. Just ask George "I don't believe in nation building" Bush.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

That is the job of the other candidates to do.It is not anyones fault that the other campaigns haven't being able to exploit it.To suggest that the media should start doing this or that to another candidate is foolish


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 0)

So, the other candidates should launch their own newspapers, cable news channels, radio stations, magazines and network news programs?

If a candidate screams in the woods and the MSM isn't there to hear it, did they make a sound?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

I love how bloggers say "we're so powerful, we're a rising force to be reckon with" but then they're like "the mainstream media is so powerful. They conquer all. Without them, there is no news."


by world dictator on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 0)

Bingo. LOL.


Hillary: We will finally have a president who doesn't mind pulling over and asking for directions. Am I right, ladies?
by areyouready on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 0)

Furthermore - the candidates jobs should be to promote themselves, not bash their opponents. Journalists are supposed to be the critical ones.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

That's funny I just left a blog where non-Hillary supporters were being chastised for bringing up her negatives. Face it, and I'm not mad at them for using this strategy but Hillary supporters and others who really would like to see Hillary at the head of the democrats ticket would just prefer no one say anything bad about Hillary or anything bad that happened in the Clinton era.


by jazzyjay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Well, attacking Hillary for anything is the same as attacking the Democratic Party...don't you realize that?


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 1)

If that's all they're doing then they're not doing their job. It's the job of journalism not to merely tell me what someone said and did today, but also to put those words and deeds in context. If someone says something today that is the opposite of what they've been saying for the last 4 years, then that context is crucial to an understanding of today's statement. Not mentioning the context is a distortion of the true events.


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (none / 0)

Oh so you are saying the media should start running a shadow campaign aginst hillary ,right?Something other candidates have failed to exploit,the media should take it upon themselves to start helping others with their campaign.They should even run it on the news ,this is just laughable.The way you ended your post brought out your agenda.If you are frustrated that your candidates campaigns are not effective enough then thats on your candidates but for you to suggest that the media help do the work your candidates campaigns can't do is just desperation in my opinion


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:37:14 PM EST

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (none / 0)

Yes, Jonathan Singer is desperate and has a (many) secret agenda(s). Very insightful.

Do you think the media are being just a fair towards  Edwards as they are towards Hillary? I would argue that the frontrunner (or any individual in a position of power, or potential power) should be examined more thoroughly, not less. More critically, not less. They owe it to us - the ones who will choose and then be ruled by these people.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (none / 0)

Hey it's too bad your candidate cannot run an effective campiagn,you are not in a position to be telling the media what to cover or what not to cover in the midst of a political campaign,if Obama or Edwards cannot make the case for themselves then I do not think its in anybody's place to be telling the media to help make the case for them,much less to suggest to run it in the news.


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (none / 0)

And do tell, bebe, who is my candidate?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (3.00 / 1)

Hillary will always let her hard work and effective campaign overcome doubters and critics,I remeber when Obama first got in and the press was all over him,and Hillary was goona be killed,everyday in the press,Hillary is this ,is that,she is calculating,she is polarizing,she can't win,iraq vote will be her detriment,women don't like her,she is not exciting,she has no charisma.etc.However debate after debate after debate,the media themselves had to recognize she was in a level of her own.

It smacks of desperation from other campaigns and the poster.If your candidate isn't catching fire then its too bad.


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Ge (1.00 / 1)

It's not exactly a level playing field.
Let me know when the media mentions anything about Mark Penn or InfoUSA connected to Hillary.
ZZzzzz...

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is called THINKING (3.00 / 3)

Some Americans and some pundits are so dumb.  They mistake looking at current facts vs. facts from 6 mos. ago or 2 years ago, or 6 yrs ago, and changing your position as "flip flopping".  Its called thinking.  Labeling thinking as flip flopping as given us a generation of inflexible pols.

Bush has us in this quagmire because he won't think.  He won't change.  He is being stubborn.

Flip flopping is changing for no reason, or changing and then changing back.  Clearly that is not the case with the MANY Democrats that voted to authorize the President to use force in Iraq.

Many thought he would work with the UN.  They thought he was dealing honestly when he said he'd give diplomacy and the inspectors a chance.  Others thought that if it came war he'd follow the Powell Doctrine as his father did and employ overwhelming force and get us in and out quickly.

Bush defied the very authorization that Congress gave him.  It required him to report back to them prior to launching an offensive.  Of course in the time between the authorization and the offensive the Senate went Republican.  Bush was free to do as he pleased.  Bush never reported back.

Hillary Clinton's progression on Iraq has been well thought out and very justified.   Bush has failed miserably and she has held him to account.  She will end the war if elected.  This nonsense about not saying "sorry" is just that, nonsense.   John Edwards is sorry?   Who cares?  He is at 15%.  Saying "sorry" will just get you hammered in the general and doesn't change how - or why - you voted anyway.

I think the vast majority of voters are comfortable with Hillary's position on Iraq.  Many Democrats, independent voters and moderate Republicans have gone through changes of heart - a progession - on this war and the way it is being waged.  Hillary has a lot of company.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:37:37 PM EST

Re: It is called THINKING (3.00 / 1)

Various polls have shown that among voters who see Iraq as their top issue that they choose Clinton. She is getting the majority of the anti-war vote.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I suspect (none / 0)

Because she is hitting Bush the hardest and because primary voters view her as both the most experienced and the most likely to deliver change (poll illustrate both these last two points).


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is called THINKING (none / 0)

Please note - the media is NOT mentioning her refusal to apologize for her war vote.
And yet - you cite a poll indicating she's getting the majority of the war vote. Duh!

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is called THINKING (none / 0)

Wrong again. You keep casting the MSM and even Fox News as for Hillary, but either you're not paying attention or you're in some parallel dimension that I'd like to see, frankly.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 06:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you dpANDREWS (3.00 / 5)

And I think your opinions are shared by many Democrats across the country.  

Anybody who puts up a diary (even Singer) bemoaning the fact that Hillary seems to be getting a "free pass", but doesn't bother to slam the bejesus out of Bush - the real culprit - should be ashamed of himself.

Hillary's vote took place years ago.  She has since evolved in her thinking on Iraq - not blindly - she traveled to Iraq; she sits on the Armed Services Committee; she has interviewed the Generals.

I'm not only tired but bored with this repeated crap about Hillary getting a "free pass".

I have been following Hillary's career for many years and that woman has not gotten a free fucking pass on anything.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is called THINKING (3.00 / 1)

I really couldn't have stated this better.

The media is already giving Hillary a hard time about this. Witness the quote at the beginning of this piece: "who was for the Iraq war before she was against it" It's a not so veiled attempt to paint Hillary as a flip flopper just at the moment she puts out a very substantial and workable solution to Bush's War. Notice how the piece did not spend any time actually discussing her proposal but rather brought up crap from a few debates ago. A debate that almost everyone said she won hands down. A debate where she clearly demonstrated that she was Presidential material. So yeah, rather than discuss the issues hit her with something else. Keep everyone distracted from dealing with the issues.

The Obama campaign attempted to downplay the importance of Hillary's plan to end the war even before she proposed it. He claimed that it was too little too late. If any of you have actually read her proposal I really don't think you would have the same response.

So no, I don't think that the media is giving Hillary a free pass at all. I actually think the proposition is preposterous.


by DoIT on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember (3.00 / 1)

The media wants friction.  They want to narrow the race.  They want attacks.  Its all just a show for them.

I forget the debate and the moderator, but I remember a debate from 2004 where the moderator constantly baited the candidates and finally came right out and complained that he couldn't get them to argue with each other.  Thats the media today.  It sucks.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

I can't imagine Hillary or Bill being successful engaging in diplomacy in the middle east when she's never apologized for her war vote. They would both be run out of the region!
People like Hillary, Bush, and the current Pope - demonstrate their cold and arrogant hearts by refusing to meet people where they are - and simply apologize.
And if you're a Christian, you know that apologizing is a basic tenet of Christianity - which all 3 profess.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

Hey I have seen a couple of your post and its kinda strange.Who are you supporting Gravel,Kucinich


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (3.00 / 2)

I think this question misses the point of what we're supposed to be doing here on this Website. Who cares who she supports? She's bringing up a good point. Let's talk about that, rather than figuring out who is in whose camp so that we can play little tribal games and cheer our horses on.

At any rate, she's right. If Hillary can't apologize for her mistake -- a mistake that has caused millions intense and deep suffering -- then she will not be respected in the Middle East, and she's not really living up to the faith she professes to believe in.

Hillary was one of the prime movers in starting this war. She won't be able to brush that under the rug when the time comes to engage the international community. Her supporters are quick to mention all the goodwill she built up on her goodwill tour when she was the first lady. How much is that good will worth now that she famously  has a main hand in displacing millions of Iraqis and the deaths of hundreds of thousands?


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

I was just wondering ,when she is always attacking all the candidates with some funny twist ,frankly i don't understand what she says sometimes.


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (3.00 / 1)

Maybe she's trying to investigate the issues without a premeditated bias towards making one particular candidate look good. If that's the case, good for her. We should all be so smart and willing to have an open discussion without stupid predispositions.

If once we decide that we're backing one particular candidate, if we'll say anything to make that candidate look good, even if it misses some important points, we're doing ourselves a disservice.

An open, honest conversation is the way to go here. Otherwise we're just kidding around.


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:15:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

Anne, I am sure you know that I respect your favored candidate John Edwards. I actually say some very nice things about him. And I mean them sincerely. Please offer a similar courtesy while discussing Hillary. John  feels that it is important for him to apologize for his vote. Being an original sponsor of the resolution I am sure I understand why he feels that way. But both he and Hillary know very well that what they voted for was giving Bush the authority to use the threat of force to get inspectors back into Iraq so that the weapons of mass destruction could be eradicated. And Bush was supposed to come back to Congress and report before launching any attack. But Bush didn't do what he said he would, played Congress for a bunch of suckers and launched this catastrophe we call a war. It wasn't John's fault and it wasn't Hilary's fault. It was most definitely Bush's fault. So let's stop bashing each other over the head about this. Yes, maybe Hillary has not apologized but she has proposed a bad to the bone comprehensive plan to get us out of Iraq. Sometimes the best apology is making something right. It speaks much louder than words.


by DoIT on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

DoIT - appreciate your response - however, I've counseled battered women with bruises and cuts all over their bodies and the one thing they wish more than anything is that their partners could have just apologized rather than bringing them flowers and diamonds. Just a simple apology for being an asshole. And then there are other women who've received zillions of apologies which meant absolutely nothing since the violence continued.
The bottom line (for me anyway) is that apologies actually need to mean something - and when people can't apologize, it makes them less authentic - especially when others are suggesting an apology is appropriate.
The longer we refuse to apologize and convince ourselves that an apology isn't necessary, it advances the perception that we just don't care. And if we're to restore America's leadership in the world, the one thing we'll need to project is that America cares.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cold and arrogant hearts! (none / 0)

Thanks for the response as well. Hillary has stated very clearly that if she knew then what she knows now she never would have voted the way she did. And in her eyes, she cannot apologize for making a judgment based on facts and circumstances at the time. The way she is leading now and the proposals she is making seem to me as if she is trying to make things right. Maybe after all of the apologies she has endured from you know who it has put her off the apology thing. I don't really know. But I also don't think that her substantive actions now constitute any form of diamonds and roses. She seems to have sincerely changed and for me that is good enough.


by DoIT on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 08:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill is highly regarded in the region (none / 0)

You may remember the Dayton Accords and he fact that he came within a whisker of a real and lasting settlement of the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no pass (none / 0)

Well, Obama has not yet launched an all out offensive on Clinton. Suchan offensive may very well fail, but until he does I don't think it's fair to say that the media has given anyone a free pass. Obama has to articualte why Clinton's vote should matter--if it should at all. People can be made to care.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:45:44 PM EST

An Obama attack could backfire (none / 0)

It could then easily be pointed out that he was just a state senator at the time and was voting on fixing potholes, not on issues of national security.  

I don't disagree that he may have to make that attack if he hopes to have a chance.  But it is not without risk.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

People can be made to care? (none / 0)

You mean, people can be made to believe what some candidate wants them to believe? I think the voting public will pretty much believe what they want. I certainly hope so.

We ended up with Bush in part because his campaign convinced enough people he was some kind of moderate - with a brain no less!! What a crock that turned out to be.

As for Obama, what's holding him back? Time is rapidly slipping away for him. If the polls stay fixed as they are now for another quarter, people will feel a sense that Clinton is unbeatable. And, you know what? They'll be right.


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: People can be made to care? (none / 0)

Obama needs to forget about any risk involved in going no-holds-barred on Clinton. He doesn't have the luxury of playing it safe. The reality is, this was always Hillary's race to loose---too many built in advantages. He needs to go on the offensive big time and be blunt about Clinton's chickanery.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's not trying to win. (3.00 / 1)

  A candidate who's trying to win makes sure he accentuates his differences with the opposition.

  Obama hasn't gone anywhere near there. He's there to provide the illusion of a competitive primary. That's all.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's not trying to win. (none / 0)

My concern is that he wants a chance at VP. First of all, Clinton would never choose him. Second of all, I'd loose all respect for him if he accepted.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Master Jack - you are brilliant! (none / 0)

>>>Obama hasn't gone anywhere near there. He's there to provide the illusion of a competitive primary. That's all.

The illusion of a competitive primary!
I've been saying that but you stated it so much better than I.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: People can be made to care? (none / 0)

I agree with you there...Obama needs to go after her hard and no worry about the risk.

The sad thing is the riskiest thing for him to do is to not challenge Hillary.

He has to pull all the stops to separate himself from her.

Hillary's pan is to blurr the line that exist between her and Obama on the war...Under any circumstances should he allow this to happen.


by JaeHood on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no pass (none / 0)

Although Obama supporters are ready for a fight - Obama won't attack Hillary.
My gosh! they're in a club together - and Obama is a baby in the club!
His job is simply to cha$e her money. Period. And distract from Edwards.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Potholes? (none / 0)

"Fixing potholes" huh? You really despise that man Obama don't you.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:57:02 PM EST

Re: Potholes? (none / 0)

Well, as a state senator from Illinois did Obama have to deal with national security? He's fond of pointing out that he was against a war with Iraq from the beginning, but you know what, he wasn't faced with the vote. He was voting on issues specific to Illinois. So, we'll never know how he would have responded back in 2002 will we? That's not a knock on Obama, that's a fact of his not being responsible for any national security issues, or any other national issues for the matter.


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Potholes? (none / 0)

There is no knock on Obama--there are simply tons of people that love Hillary, irrespective of Obama's presence in the race. It's fallacy to say that most people are leaning Hillary because then find Obama distasteful. Many people just want to see Hillary win, NO MATTER WHAT.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Potholes? (none / 0)

Well, you take issue with the guys experience without demeaning it. Fixing potholes?--what's the point of that? Right, there is no point.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

 When she says she wants to end the war, I can't believe her. When she says she wants to reform healthcare, I can't believe her. She's just not credible.

 Such is the cost of always acting politically.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:03:08 PM EST

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

Gosh Jack, tell us how you really feel...I guess Clinton won't be getting your vote. Who will you vote for?


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

 I'm uncommitted.

 The one thing I know is that a Hillary Clinton candidacy would be toxic to the Democratic Party -- its 2008 prospects, its brand, the possibility of the party ever standing for anything again. It would be a triumph of personality cult over substance. Even in the extremely unlikely event that she won the presidency, she wouldn't get anything useful done. She's a complete slave to her many corporate contributors.

 I'm supporting a candidate who is AGGRESSIVE. Who will call out the Republicans on their horseshit without consulting 1,000 focus groups first. Who is proud to stand for Democratic values, not the watered-down Daschlesque junk that killed us in 2002 and 2004. Hillary Clinton is none of those things.

 I see some good qualities in Obama, some in Edwards, some in Richardson, and some in the others, even Biden. But I see NO reason to vote for Hillary Clinton. None.

 


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

But these people don't mind toxicity. They just can't wait to see the repubs go into convulsions when the Clinton's strut back into the Whitehouse. Think about, Hillary sitting triuphant behind that desk...it will be absolutely magical!!!!!


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

 I guarantee you that Hillary Clinton will NOT be the next president of the United States.

 Not gonna happen. I've never been more sure of anything in my life.

 Either she loses the primary, or she gets the nomination and gets crushed in the general, dragging the party along with her.

 I've even offered wagers to people on this. No one will take me up on it -- not even Hillary supporters.

 A Hillary Clinton candidacy will make 2002 look like a thunderous victory.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

sour grapes,Get a hold of yourself.


by bebe on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

Reality is gonna bite you in the butt Jack...


by SF Bay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

  I stand by my prediction. You can all link to it and throw it in my face next year if I'm wrong.

  But that won't happen. Hillary Clinton is not going to be our next president.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just don't believe Hillary. (none / 0)

she might win the WH ... but think about what will happen to the down ballot races .. especially in the south


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 01:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Master Jack (none / 0)

"The one thing I know is that a Hillary Clinton candidacy would be toxic to the Democratic Party -- its 2008 prospects, its brand, the possibility of the party ever standing for anything again. It would be a triumph of personality cult over substance. Even in the extremely unlikely event that she won the presidency, she wouldn't get anything useful done. She's a complete slave to her many corporate contributors."
___

Utter bullshit.  Does the phrase "You need to get over yourself mean anything to you?"


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you care about America? (3.00 / 0)

 Or do you just care about Hillary Clinton?

 I want a candidate who's not going to triangulate the Democratic Party into even greater irrelevancy than now. A candidate who will stop the killing in Iraq. A candidate who will stand up for working-class Americans. A candidate who will push for meaningful healthcare reform.

 If Hillary Clinton is that candidate, she's kept it remarkably well hidden. What, you think Murdoch threw that fundraiser for her because of her deep concern for the poor? You think big pharma is bankrolling her because they've suddenly seen the wisdom of single-payer?

 I'm more interested in what's best for America than in what's best for Hillary Clinton. Sorry if that offends you.


by Master Jack on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you care about America? (3.00 / 0)

Thanks, you cut through the dribble. This is the case that has to be made often. The other candidates have to make it, and the media has to cover them making it. It is not either or it is both. An army of supporters will help make it, too.


by jazzyjay on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Media Soft On Clinton? Pass Me That Joint, Dude! (3.00 / 1)

Murray thinks the media is soft on Hillary?  Seriously, what is that man smoking?  

While his head may be floating in a hazy la-la land, he clearly has both feet planted on earth next to his fellow Hillary-Hating-Misogamist-Irish-Catholic -DC-Media-Mob that includes Matthews, Dowd, Barnicle, Todd, Healy, Carlson, Sullivan, etc.

In all seriousness, has a candidate or their positions ever been more-scrutinized than Hillary?  


by BigBoyBlue on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:05:36 PM EST

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Yes - the media mentioned Hillary's war vote - but that was in Jan and Feb - zilch! since then. What changed?  Did she apologize?? ha!
The media changed the focus from her war vote to Edwards haircuts - and Obama's girl. And apparently, they were so successful that you and many others didn't even notice.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:16:29 PM EST

Re: NBC's First Read: (3.00 / 1)

I think it's important to note that it wasn't just one vote for the war, it was an entire campaign that lasted for years in which Hillary Clinton parroted the Bush lies that Saddam Hussein had WMD and that he was working with Al Quada.


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NBC's First Read: (none / 0)

Yes - but see - Obama delivered those same "support the troops" war funding votes - longgggg after Edwards was calling for redeployment.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:25:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's a story for Jonathan Singer (3.00 / 2)

Why not frontpage a story about the way Bush and Cheney are getting a "free pass".  Huh?  Then ask why Obama and Edwards are also giving Bush and Cheney a "free pass".

http://www.gop.com/blog/BlogPost.aspx?Bl ogPostID=150
Hillary Clinton Bashes Bush (again)

It seems Hillary Clinton has been taking cues from DNC Chairman Howard Dean when it comes to criticizing Republicans.  The New York Times reports in a front page story that Sen. Clinton "castigated President Bush and Congressional Republicans yesterday as being mad with power and self-righteousness, complained that the news media have been timid in taking on the administration, and suggested that some Washington Republicans have a God complex" in a speech at a NY fundraiser.  Clinton said her "party was hamstrung in fighting back because Republicans dissemble and smear without shame."  Mrs. Clinton "described Republican leaders as messianic in their beliefs, willing to manipulate facts and even 'destroy' the Senate to gain political advantage."  In some "of her sharpest language, Mrs. Clinton said that abetting Republicans was a Washington press corps that has become a pale imitation of the Watergate-era reporters."  And Reuters adds that Sen. Clinton said "the Administration of President Bush wants to stifle debate and suppress facts" on a range of issues.  Sen. Clinton said, "There has never been an administration, I don't think in our history, more intent on consolidating and abusing power to further their own agenda ... I stay awake at night thinking about all the mistakes and the wrong direction and all the bad decisions being made in Washington."  She "characterized the Bush administration's financial priorities as tax cuts for the wealthy and funding the war in Iraq, rather than the needs of Americans who lack health insurance, affordable housing and good schools."

If Obama had any smarts, as a campaigner, he'd do the same as Hillary and do it often, as she does.  Instead his amateur campaign team is busy finding ways to demean Hillary on Iraq, to make their guy look like a leader.  Give me a fucking break.  And please excuse my French.

I have a fair amount of respect for progressives.  However, the "progressive" community gets an A+ for putting it's support behind candidates who don't know how to run winning campaigns.  It seems many of you are too interested in maintaining your purist "values".  So pure are your values that hatred for a candidate in your own party is par for the course!


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:21:25 PM EST

Re: Here's a story for Jonathan Singer (none / 0)

That's idiotic. How the hell is anyone giving Bush a free pass? How many time must one recite that Bush is a stubborn incompentent fool. Yeah, it really takes a whole lot of and insight and courage to point out the obvious. If hearing that gets your rocks off then it doesn't take much to impress you.

In the words of Oba-wan Kinobi: "Who is more foolish, the fool or the Senator who follows him"?


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

foolish? (3.00 / 1)

"How many time must one recite that Bush is a stubborn incompentent fool?(bode78)

It can never be said often enough or with harsh enough language.  The GOP are facing what could be their extinction and they are going to fight like animals to win.  They must be attacked and attacked and attacked again.  Their crimes are too numerous to list.  

Meanwhile, we've got Obama ONLY criticizing Bush when he is asked his opinion in interviews and even then, it is hardly criticism.  Maybe this has to do with Obama having plateaued in the polls.  Maybe the American people are too angry to elect a guy who won't condemn the criminals and take them on.

Obama's success, if he is to succeed, won't rest on comparing himself to Hillary.  It will rest on how strong and assertive he is against the thugs who have ruined our country.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: foolish? (none / 0)

I understand how you people feel. But I don't need to be re-convinced that Bush is an idiot each and everyday...that concept sunk in about seven years ago. We're just two different breeds.


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a story for Jonathan Singer (none / 0)

While not a supporter in the primary, I agree the rhetoric directed against Senator Clinton is sometimes too hot and counterproductive.   But this argument that all criticism must be directed at Bush is not just silly, it is dangerous.

If engaged primary voters can't debate the relative merits of the various Democratic candidates on a progressive blog focused on ideology, strategy, and tactics, then where the hell can we?

This "your too pure" charge does not hold water when people aren't asking for perfection but questioning the Senator's stated position on several issues of importance (Iraq, economic fairness, etc.)  Rather than take this defensive tack, perhaps you could consider whether the Senator's positions are required politically and then consider the merits of the criticisms.  Don't just paper over the Senator's flaws with ad hominem arguments against her critics.

If our party is not about ideas for promoting a better country and world but about who can develop the most seasoned campaign staff and best execute a victory plan we are in trouble.  Those are vital - and laudable strengths in the Senator's campaign.  But they must be in service of something larger than merely winning.  And that is why we should debate the differences among that candidates.

(This idea that Senator Clinton is holding Murdoch close to keep him under control may be the single most unpersuasive assertion I have ever read).

Trond Jacobsen


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a story for Jonathan Singer (none / 0)

But Hillary = the Democratic Party. It's just downright disloyal to criticize her for anything. It's just wrong I tell you!!! Wrong!!! We must keep repeating how evil Bush is, because if we don't, than we might forget. All this constructive debate within the party stuff has to stop. All hail Hillary!!!


by bode78 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about Global Poverty? (none / 0)

While the U.S. government and media keep focusing on defense policies and the war in Iraq, 1.2 billion people in the world continue surviving on less than $1 dollar a day. I would like to see Hillary Clinton be supportive of more international affairs that affect our place in this world. We should not forget the commitment made towards the U.N. Millennium Goals (a pact of ending extreme world hunger by the year 2025) in 2000. While the U.S. government and media keep focusing on defense policies and the war in Iraq, 1.2 billion people in the world continue surviving on less than $1 dollar a day. According to The Borgen Project, an annual $19 billion dollars is needed to eliminate half of the extreme poverty affecting the world by the year 2015. To my sense, it is almost unacceptable to have spent so far more than $340 billion in Iraq only, when we have more than war immunities to change the world and eliminate poverty.


by aileench on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:29:27 PM EST

Jonathan Singer (none / 0)

"But it probably wouldn't hurt for the media to take a more serious look at the differences in the candidates' stances -- even if their rhetoric is roughly the same. In this vein, perhaps NBC should, in addition to publishing a blog post that will be read by a few thousand people, run the same story and others like it on its evening news, which is viewed by a few million people. Such a move would probably negate the need for such questions and headlines in the first place."< (Jonathan Singer)
_______

Gee Jonathan, why don't you just hand the keys to the Oval Office over to Mitt or Rudy or Fred?
Think of all the time that could be saved.


The Facts: Please Read
by Regan on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:53:15 PM EST

Well, if you are looking for differences (none / 0)

from the candidates on Iraq, skip the MSM, we've got it right here on Blue Hampshire:


Blue Hampshire Policy Straw Poll: Iraq

Every candidate save Hillary responded, whose campaign instead opted for their own separate post.


Wonder if Sununu's fired now.
by Dean Barker on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:18:18 PM EST

Hillary was against the war since day 1 (3.00 / 2)

Read her speech in 2002 - she was very clear (see below).  Anyone who tries to smear her as "pro-war" doesn't know how to read, or never would have voted for her, anyway.

EXCERPTS FROM HILLARY'S 2002 SPEECH ON SENATE FLOOR, EXPLAINING HER WAR AUTHORIZATION VOTE:

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.


by Berkeley Vox on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:48:33 PM EST

Re: Hillary was against the war since day 1 (3.00 / 1)

So she said that it's a bad idea, and therefore she's voting for it?

What kind of muddled thinking comes up with that?


by Pope Jeremy on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was against the war since day 1 (3.00 / 1)

That is exactly why she said this, which you kindly left out:

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

Read the AUMF. Military action was specifically conditioned upon the event that diplomacy failed. K thx.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 01:49:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was against the war since day 1 (none / 0)

Thank you for posting this. When I hear all of the nonsensical sniping about Hillary voting for going into a war blindly following Bush in lockstep I sometimes wonder if these folk even care about truth, inconvenient or otherwise.


by DoIT on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 09:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was against the war since day 1 (none / 0)

John Kerry tried to have it both ways with his Iraq War vote too, and he was crucified by the media.  Yet HRC gets a free pass.  Why?


by Will Graham on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 07:33:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Where was NBC over four years ago? (none / 0)

NBC's First Read: "Is Hillary Getting a Free Pass on Iraq?"

Chutzpah.

....In February, with the Iraq war approaching, MSNBC terminated Phil Donahue's primetime show after an internal NBC report complained that Donahue offered a "difficult public face for NBC in a time of war.... He seems to delight in presenting guests who are antiwar, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives." The report, which was never supposed to go public, described a nightmare scenario in which the show becomes "a home for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving the flag at every opportunity."

If you watched MSNBC before and during the war, you know that it was second to none in waving the flag at every opportunity -- part of a strategy that others in TV news are trying: "Let's outfox Fox...."

Since it seems to be a popular idea with some, I'm waiting for an apology from Timmeh!, Tweety, and NBC.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:57:31 PM EST

An Amazing Very Important Read (none / 0)

The best thing about what you have posted is that it is a fact that anyone can research and verify. That isn't to say I have much faith believing that some people will be moved by facts. Some actually prefer to live blindly. And in a vain effort to seek normalcy they seek to persuade others of their delusion.


by DoIT on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:05:51 PM EST

Frankly, what's Obama's plan on the war again? (none / 0)

Can anyone remember?  He's so focused on a speech he gave in 2002 that I have no idea what he's planning to do.  Hillary outlined a good plan to leave Iraq yesterday.  She seems to understand the urgency of the situation.  She's ready to lead us out of Iraq.  She's putting Bush's feet to the coals, urging him to act.  That's what we need to do now.  Leave Iraq.  Quibbling about the past doesn't resonate with me.  I don't think Obama can be the anti-war candidate simply by stating that he was against the war initially.  He's not a very loud voice for getting out now.  Where's his judgement now?    


by bookgrl on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:12:30 PM EST

Hillary Is Getting a Free Pass on Iraq (none / 0)

Hillary is getting a free pass on Iraq.  She voted for the war and refuses to appologize.  She also gets off saying that Iraq was fine until the Iraqi's didn't step up.  AKA It's the Iraqi's fault that Iraq is bad.  Some of the things I've heard her say make me sick to think we're considering nominating her.  If you're fighting for peace, don't trust the people you're fighting after the war is over... That doesn't make any sense.  It just makes it look as if she's done even less thinking about the subject before casting her vote.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:59:54 PM EST

Re: Hillary Is Getting a Free Pass on Iraq (none / 0)

don't trust it with the people you're fighting*

-Sorry, I'm tired.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (3.00 / 1)

There is no FREE PASS from the media.  Quite the opposite.  This article is just one of many that I have seen to come up with arguments against Clinton, but the problem is that the arguments don't wash.  

The first argument Murray makes is this one:

"Yet the article doesn't mention that just a year ago, she said that setting a "date certain" for withdrawal was a mistake."

So, you are saying, Mr. Murray, that coverage of Obama Barack's speech on the Iraq war (on the same date Clinton's speech was given in DesMoines) should have ALSO come with the same disclaimer that just a year ago Obama Barack spoke out against "setting a date certain"?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/23635 2,CST-NWS-sweet31.article

An excerpt:

Earlier, he refused to vote for an amendment proposed by Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) that would have, as Obama said, bring the troops home on a "date certain."

On June 21, Obama took to the Senate floor to say, "A hard and fast, arbitrary deadline for withdrawal offers our commanders in the field and our diplomats in the region insufficient flexibility."

End of excerpt

Why, Mr. Murray, reading your article one gets the impression you did not even know that Mr. Obama spoke out against a "date certain" just the same.  I don't see the media making note of the gradual reversal Barack Obama has undergone on that issue.  In fact, the media just reports on Obama's current speeches about the issue, and at most makes note that he originally opposed the war, but his positioning INBETWEEN is never mentioned.   Is Barack Obama getting a free pass on Iraq?

The next argument Murray makes states:

And when asked why she voted for every previous war-spending bill until that one, she responded: "Unfortunately, we don't have a president who is willing to change course. And I think it was time to say enough is enough... Everybody on this stage, we are all united... We all believe that we need to try to end this war."

Well, isn't that why Barack Obama also voted for every previous war-spending bill until this last one?  

So, if the media WERE to openly discuss Clinton speaking against a "date certain" just last year, it also needs to do the same with Barack Obama.  If the media WERE to ask openly and repeatedly why Clinton voted for war funding every time until this last time, it has to do the same with Barack Obama.    It would be a media wash, and I submit that the discussion would probably hurt Obama more, as he is already battling the perception of "inexperience," so a flip-flop on his position about a "date certain" brought up in the media over and over would not look too good when one looks at "lack of experience" as an issue, while it probably just serves to make Clinton look "willing to change course when the issue calls for it, especially given that she is dealing with BUSH here" which just helps her look presidential AND recalls her disdain for Bush, which is shared by most Democrats.    


by georgep on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 08:22:53 AM EST


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