Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability conundrum.

Jerome Armstrong wrote an interesting article entitled Edwards and the electability question.  Jerome does not take a definitive position on this issue but seem to suggest that John Edwards "electability" would be a good strategic move for the Edwards campaign.  I disagree and I think it opens up a much broader issue of what the word actually means.

If we were to go with the strict dictionary definiton of the term

e·lect·a·ble [i-lek-tuh-buhl]
-adjective

capable of, or having a reasonable chance of, being elected, as to public office.

Source:  Dictionary.com

then by definition, Edwards would be no more electable in the general election than Clinton or Obama and most polling seems to agree with this conclusion.  National head-to-head polls indicate that all top three democratic candidates would do good in a general election against the top three republican candidates (see RealClearPolitics.com - Election 2008 National Head-to-Head Polls).  Now the Edwards camp, according to Jerome Armstrong, in a polling memo made the case that Edwards can compete in more states than either Obama or Clinton based on two public polls, SurveyUSA and Ramussen Reports.  Now I question the judgment of using just these two polls to argue for southern electability.  Furthermore, if you look at the SUSA state by state poll against Giuliani, Edwards only does marginally better than Clinton or Obama.  Additionally, Hillary Clinton holds a large lead in most Northern and Western states where Edwards seems to even have a hard time competing.

Politically knowledgeable bloggers (i.e. the MyDD community) tend to look at all these polls with a grain of salt.  Polls are useful but are far from the most accurate predictor of general election success.  As a matter of fact, both Ramussen and SurveyUSA failed to project the 2004 winner on a state by state basis and was ranked lower than Mason-Dixon in accuracy as determined by the Free Republic.  So neither of these polls are guaranteed measures and questionable at best in determining "electability."

During the 2004 Democratic primary, Howard Dean and Joe Lieberman dominated the polls with frontrunner status and yet neither came close to winning the nomination.  John Kerry did win the nomination on the perception that he was the most electable from an experience standpoint and we all know the horrible conclusion to that decision.

The most concerning aspect to this whole debate is the notion that any democrat can win a large number of states in the South.  This remains to be seen since to date, democratic presidential candidates have done poorly in the south as evidenced by the Kerry/Edwards ticket in 2004 and in the states that Kerry did win Hillary seems to be holding larger margins than Edwards or Obama.

So I am going to stick my neck out on a limb here and suggest that John Edwards may be gearing his campaign up to play a subtle race/gender card strategy.  I hope this is not the case but the fact remains that America has never elected a woman or a black man.  Lynn Sweet, as Jerome Armstrong pointed out, noted in Edwards speech at AFSCME meeting:

Edwards launched into what amounted to a general election argument against Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama: that they are not electable and can't get votes in certain parts of the nation. He didn't use their names, but that's who he was aiming at when he said "we need a candidate for president" who "can go anywhere in America."

This sounds eerily like he is suggesting that a woman or black man leading the democratic ticket is unelectable.  Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post wrote an identically titled blog to Jerome Armstrong called Edwards and the Electability Question.  In his blog he writes his take on the issue which seems to be in line with my suspicions:

The truth is that Edwards's "electability" argument is based more on where he's from and what he sounds like when he talks than on his policy proposals. He was born in South Carolina, won a Senate seat in North Carolina and his accent is pure south.

. . . It's also worth noting inherent in all of these arguments is the fact that Edwards is the only white male among the top three Democrats. Edwards's campaign vehemently denies that his call to consider which candidate is the most electable has anything to do with Hillary Clinton's gender or Barack Obama's race. But the fact remains that America has never elected a woman or an African American to the White House. It's not an issue any candidate will bring up in the course of the contest, but it would be naive to assume it has no role in at least some voters' minds as they make their choice on which candidate to support in the upcoming caucuses and primaries.

Ultimately, I think it is a poor argument and should be banned by the progressive community to use "electability" in determining how to vote.  I think John Edwards has a great chance at winning the democratic nomination and the general election but, in my opinion, it has very little to do with his race or this so called "electability".  Media Matters says it all in the following article:

If there's a more pointless word in political journalism than "authentic," it must be "electable."

. . . Constantly searching for reasons why Democrats can't win, why they are "unelectable," may be a comfortable old habit. But it doesn't serve the public well, and it makes the media who participate in it look increasingly silly.

It has everything to do with his campaign, how it is run and his platform.  There are pros and cons to all of the top three candidates and we will continue to weigh them out over the course of the primaries.  However, electability should not be a factor insofar as race, gender or geographical birthplace is concerned.  It has never been a good indicator in the past and should not be given any significant weight now and I am strongly against John Edwards using this line of reasoning.

As Obama eloquently pointed out during his CBS 60 minutes interview in regard to the African American voting block:

I think there is the assumption on the part of some commentators that somehow the black community is so unsophisticated that the minute you put an African-American face up on the screen that they automatically say, "that's our guy."  A black candidate has to earn black votes the same way he has to earn white votes and that's exactly how it should be.

In conclusion, I am going to take those same words and apply it to the assumption in the progressive blogosphere that the democratic community, which is predominantly white, should embrace John Edwards because he is perceived to be the most "electable" (i.e. code word for the only white southern male in the top tier).  Ultimately, a white southern male candidate has to earn our support the same way a black man or white woman will have to.  The nomination will be determined by a culmination of factors based on polls, fundraising, interest, excitement, likeability, experience, plans, platform, and maybe physical traits (for those who find that matters).  There has been fluctuation between the three as to who does the best in general election match ups and I, for one, this far out base my opinion on the candidate's platform as I am certain that we all do.

Let us do away with this "electability" thing and urge John Edwards to do the same. As Bill Clinton pointed out during the '92 debates, "it is insane to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result."



Poll
Should race or gender influence our voting decision?
Yes
No
I'm Not Sure

Votes: 14
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


be careful (3.00 / 0)

If Edwards is not careful and overplays 'electability' card, this will come back to bite him mightily as you suggested.

I doubt either Obama and Hillary will let him get away with those unpleasant but sutble undercurrent.

Don't forget he was slammed hard by Obama in debate when he thought he was smart to pick on both Obama and Clinton.


by kostner on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 11:07:41 PM EST

Re: be careful (3.00 / 1)

Did anyone stop to consider that when Edwards argues that he'll be able to compete everywhere whereas other candidates wouldn't be able to that he believes that's the case because he's the only candidate running as a progressive popularist? We know that a lot of people have moved away from the democratic party and politics as a whole as democrats have stopped advocating for bright line economic issues that effect working families. Bill Clinton ran as a progressive popularist in 1992 he was going to fight for the working people and he was against unfair trade deals and he swept a lot of industrial and southern states based on people believing that (and an assist from Perot). Then President Clinton betrayed thse people who had supported him by turning around and ramming NAFTA through congress and reducing the social safety net by "reforming" welfare. From then onwards the DLC corporatist neo-liberals were on the upswing and working class people especially in the south, the rural south and rural areas in general turned sharply against democrats.

Last year all the democratic challengers that were for fair-trade and critized the free trade deals that had cost working America jobs won their races. Progressives and popularists were elected in recent years in Montana (Gov. Schitzer, Sen. Tester), Ohio (Sen. Sherrod Brown), Virginia (Gov. Warner, Gov. Kaine, Sen. Webb). The US House also elected a large number of economic progressive popularists especially last year's class swelling the progressive caucus to a full third of the democratic caucus. Rural voters have shifted sharply from strongly republican to a democratic lean or at the least parity between democrats. They list their major concerns as economic rather than the conservative wedge issues and that's bad for republicans as without racking up large margins in rural areas they can't compete against democrats large margins in urban areas and parity in surburban areas. Especially bad if you consider that surburban areas are moving towards democratic leaning too.

We need to work to capture these rural voters in every state (not just in the south) and the best way to do that is with a presidental candidate running as a strong economic progressive popularist--let's not forget that the old progressive popularist movement was born out of the south, rural people who were mostly farmers at the time--and the only candidate running that way is John Edwards. I believe he realizes that because of this and his other attributes he's the strongest general election candidate that democrats have and that he has the best opportunity to bring these rural voters into the fold increasing out vote totals accross the board (which will help in rural congressional districts and state legislative districts accross the nation) and also likely to swing several upper southern and mid-western states. This is why we must support John Edwards' candidacy and help him get the financial resources he needs to get his message out as the establishment powerful interests will do all they can to try and defeat him.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I question that argument as well. (3.00 / 1)

Populist?

pop·u·lism (pŏp'yə-lĭz'əm)

A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.

Obama is definitely running a populist campaign and I would argue that Hillary is as well for the most part.  All advocate universal healthcare and fighting for the middle class.  Edwards just tends to emphasize poverty more than any other candidate.

I highly doubt that populism is the reason anyone is arguing for his electability because in the last 27 years it has not been an election winning agenda.  Most rural and southern voters defected to the republican party during the Reagan era based on the perception that democrats began focusing to heavily on minority issues and lacked an overall respect on issues of religion and faith.  There is no proof whatsoever that suggests being a populist makes you the most electable and I simply do not believe that was the point John Edwards was getting at.

Additionally, if you are the most electable then that will be determined through people's votes.  Why the need to point it out?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:39:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I question that argument as well. (none / 0)

Every candidate points out why they think they're the most electable. Hillary says it's because she can bring out women voters in huge numbers and that she's also popular with the african american community. Richardson's play is that he's a governor with foreign policy experience and that he's latino and from a western state. Obama's big play is that he's a post-partisan and that independents and young people like him. Everyone makes their case, that's politics.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Have any of them said it? (3.00 / 0)

Show me a quote of them saying so.

Hillary does have a large share of the womens vote and she also does well with African-Americans but she has never said so.  Could you imagine her saying, "I'm the most electable in black communities and I am the one who can bring in the women vote."

I have never heard Obama say, "I am the most electable at college universitys and heavy moderate republican districts."

Your argument is waaayy off.  John Edwards is campaigning on the idea that he is the most "electable", according to Jerome Armstrong.  I take issue with that.

And remove that troll rating you put on me in response to Vox Populi's post.  Please read the entire conversation before you start throwing out troll ratings.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:57:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I question that argument as well. (3.00 / 0)

Nice journal lovingj...

Obama is populist in his own way - but Edwards is the only candidate (in how long?) to run as a true populist. And I think Quinton is right in saying that an Edwards candidacy would be the best way to capitalize on shifting political winds in rural America. But I also agree that the populist message is not what gives Edwards the edge in head-to-heads. Maybe it's gender and race, maybe its personality - but what it's not is a reflection of voter's understanding of Edward's positions and policy proposals. People simply aren't paying that much attention yet. Point being, Edwards' run-left strategy might actually harm his perceived electability once it is brought into broad day light.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I question that argument as well. (none / 0)

I guess I may be the only one to think this, but historically "populist" has had very negative connotations. Consider some well known American populists in history: George Wallace, Marcus Garvey, and Huey Long. They were adamant supporters of fighting the establishment in favor of the little guy, but they were regarded at the time and even now as ranging from radical to insane.

By the way, I fully support the notion that electability shouldn't be in our vocabularies. It fundamentally assumes that we should focus on factors not in our control and make our candidates beholden to people who won't vote for them anyway.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Next Debate (none / 0)

I have a feeling that this will be brought up in the next debate and I base that on the already, frivolous questions that the candidates were asked in the last two. Barack Obama may not pre-emptively attack fellow Democrats , but when he is attacked , he will devour them as he demonstrated with John Edwards in the last debate.

I hope it is brought up in the next debate so that it can dealt with before a massive national audience.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 11:28:57 PM EST

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

I agree. I really want Edwards to bring this up in next debate, and we'll see how Obama and Hillary are going to react.


by kostner on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 11:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

I'm more interested in the way the American people react. This could definitely turn EE's plum into a prune over night.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 11:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

Edwards may not have to bring it up, Tavis Smiley might do it for him.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

What does U.T. Smiley have to do with anything?

This Just In........

Not everyone with a Black Face represents the Black Community. Nor are they an authority on Black Politics. CIP: ( FOX NEWS TOKENS )


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

Has nothing with him being Black.  Prior to the last debate, Edwards tried to attack Obama & Clinton so the moderator naturally went right to that question.  It kind of backfired on John.  Now, he's done the same thing all over again.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:42:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

Why did you bring up Travis Smiley? Please do not avoid answering the question again.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

I think he brought him up because he's the Moderator.


by dlh77489 on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 05:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

Never mind. You're talking about the Tavis Smiley. I meant. The next REAL Debate.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Next Debate (none / 0)

I don't understand.  The next debate is the first one not on a cable news station.  There are still many people for whom this will be the first debate they will get a chance to see.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

Thank you for this diary. I was thinking the exact same thing when I was reading Jerome's post today.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:28:26 AM EST

Forget the South (none / 0)

Seriously. The Republicans have completed the transition of the deep South that began when LBJ embraced the civil rights movement. The deep south is the Republican base now. Yellow dog Republican. The Democrats could run David Duke and not win in Miss, Ala, GA, or SC.

Fortunately, winning in the south is not a necessary part of the Democratic electoral math. Carry the same states that the hapless John Kerry won in 2004 and add either Ohio or Florida. Simple as that.

Other states that may be in play, like Iowa or Kentucky, or even Virginia would turn the election into a rout.


by hwc on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:30:36 AM EST

Re: Forget the South (none / 0)

Most Southern states could be in play with the right  political atmosphere (i.e. - this one) and the right ticket. But whoever the nominee, I don't think any of the frontrunners are likely to pull it off.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:55:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point. (none / 0)

It could happen though but I would argue that it would likely be a consequence of horrible republican governing and not the race/gender of the democratic nominee.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:03:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No way. (none / 0)

Saxby Chambliss swiftboated Max Cleland out of office for being "anti-military". I think that pretty comprehensively proves the old saying, "I'd vote for a Yeller Dog before I'd vote for a lib'rul Democrat!"

The Democratic Presidential candidates are wasting their money to invest one red cent in Miss, Ala, GA, or SC during the general election. Keep movin' folks, nothin' to see here.


by hwc on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 04:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

more important than the polls (3.00 / 1)

I meant to add: something that is far more important than the match-up polls a year and half out is the capability of the candidate and the campaign.

Running for President is almost as difficult as being President. Some candidates and campaigns just plain execute better. More disciplined. More consistently on message. More effective in counterpunching. Better at fundraising. Quicker in debates. And so on and so forth.

In football, the better team usually wins. In politics, the better candidate/campaign has a decided advantage.


by hwc on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:33:54 AM EST

The electability conundrum. (none / 0)

The Obama supporters resort to using the race card.  'John Edwards is mean because Barack Obama's black' is what their argument comes down to.

Part of Barack's appeal to white voters is that he doesn't bring the racial issue up in a threatening way.  The minute his campaign and supporters start playing the race card is the day his white support starts to dry up.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:44:43 AM EST

Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

Obama or Edwards?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

Neither.  It's Obama's supporters like you who are trying to put Barack into the poor black victim role at the hands of the evil white southern man.

But hey, when you can't win it on substance...


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

Your argument that anytime a minority asks to not to be discriminated against they're playing the "poor minority victim" card is HIGHLY offensive.


by world dictator on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

How is he being discriminated against?  Seriously, do we want affirmative action in the nomination process?


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dude . . . (3.00 / 1)

You are waaaaayyyyyy out of line.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:38:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (3.00 / 0)

I'm not one to throw out the word racist very often but your comments are starting to cross that line


by world dictator on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:39:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

The point is that no one, minority or otherwise is being discriminated against. One candidate is saying their a better candidate for the general election just as all the other candidates say they would be the best. Obama supporters here playing the race card and some Hillary supporters playing the sex card is what's highly offensive. To say you're the strongest candidate for the general is nothing new, they all say it. I go into more detail as I why I believe Edwards is the strongest candidate and why he can compete in places others aren't: he's the only candidate running as a progressive popularist.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:29:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dude this is new. (none / 0)

No one is claiming to have a guaranteed lock on any specific group.  The media pundits may say it and you are definitely making a case for it, however, I have yet seen a candidate themself say so with the exception of JRE's recent statements.

Not to be anal but I think you meant to spell populist instead of popularist which you have used in a few posts in this thread.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:24:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

First of all . . . (1.33 / 3)

You are way out of line.  Jerome Armstrong started a post on this issue and John Edwards himself has been making the case around electability.

Also, let the substance thing go.  Obama has as many if not more plans than Edwards.  I am not resorting to any low balls like you (i.e. John Edwards is playing the race/gender card because he is doing poorly in the polls).

I could easily end with

But hey, when you can't win on your populous message or supposedly veteran campaigning skills . . .

Get off the flame wars already and just tell me what you think about the electability issue.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:38:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: First of all . . . (3.00 / 1)

I've troll rated you as you've just accused a leading contender for the democratic presidental nomination of being a racist and a sexist and of having said racist and sexist things while you have no evidence of such and no reason to accuse him of such a vile thing other than it suits your purposes.

John Edwards has never spoken of anything other than equality, ending discrimination against groups that are discriminated against, lifting people up out of poverty and hopelessness and protecting working families and children from powerful interests that take callously take advantage of them. I strongly suggest that you get a better grip on yourself before you go too far and both alienate people who may otherwise think fondly of Obama and get yourself banned from here as I hear you were from dailykos. Please see near the top of this diary as to what I believe John Edwards is refering to when he's talking about how he would be the strongest general election candidate we could choose and how he can compete in places that others cannot: he's the only one running as an economic progressive popularist.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dude? (3.00 / 0)

Remove that troll rating.  I never said JRE was sexist or racist and my diary was not about him being one.  However, it is to note Jerome Armstrong's recent piece highlighting the fact that John Edwards himself has been saying on the campaign trail that he is the most "electable" whatever that may mean.

Furthermore, is this not worthy of discussion?  Lynn Sweet and Chris Cillizza both noted the same thing and seem to suggest that it is playing to the race/gender card.

Take that troll rating off.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dude? (none / 0)


I am not resorting to any low balls like you (i.e. John Edwards is playing the race/gender card because he is doing poorly in the polls).

Oh? You seem to have said just that here.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In response to Vox . . . (none / 0)

i.e. means for example and I was not at all suggesting that.  However, it was in reply to Vox's comment that in considering Obama we advocating affirmative action in the nominating process.

The tone of my posts have been consistent and civil and I was attempting to use that fire hydrant example to extinguish the flame war Vox was trying to start up.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In response to Vox . . . (none / 0)

Okay. I read that part differently than you explain and I will take you at your word and change the rating. Apologies for having misunderstood if that is indeed the case.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks. (3.00 / 0)


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You did not remove the troll rating. (3.00 / 0)

Are you going to remove it?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You did not remove the troll rating. (1.00 / 1)

Apparently not. But, hey. Look who he supports. Did you really think he would make a promise and keep it?

LOL


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 04:10:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: First of all . . . (none / 0)

It didn't seem to me that was where LovingJ was headed, see Vox's comments above.  Who's accusing Edwards of being racist?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 03:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And its not just about Obama (none / 0)

its about Hillary too.  I am not a Hillary supporter but I would never vote against her if my only reasoning was that a white male would have a better chance.

Now that is not to say that John Edwards may not have a better platform than both Hillary and Obama.  However, to argue electability as a reason to select a candidate is ludicrous.  I've never seen a candidate say that in past races.  Pundits maybe but a candidate to use that as a reason to justify his candidacy?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

"Poor black victim role"...that's one of the most offensive things I've heard in quite a while.

A few years ago Rush Limbaugh was for some reason hired as an ESPN football analyst, then promptly fired for making a racist comment about Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb. He suggested that the media casts McNabb in a positive light because they want to see a black quarterback succeed. Please don't make the same argument as RUSH LIMBAUGH.

But hey, when you can't win on substance...resort to race-baiting.


"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
by This Machine Kills Fascists on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's playing the race card? (none / 0)

The only ones race-baiting here are a very few Obama supporters. It was posited that if Obama won the nomination that some republican attacks would be deflected as they'd be called out as racist even if they weren't in the least and this would make republicans less sure of how hard to attack and the like. I guess that is pretty likely to happen if it's already being used against other democrats so early in the process who are merely saying that they're the strongest general election candidate as all candidates will and do say.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:50:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability conundrum. (none / 0)

That's funny because, I think the author is ....WHITE and a ......MALE!

:O

There goes your argument.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability conundrum. (none / 0)

In 2006, Hillary Clinton was asked to not campaign for many southern and rural congressional candidates.  Edwards was allowed to campaign everywhere.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:27:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability conundrum. (none / 0)

In 2006, many begged Barack Obama to campaign with them. I did not see John Edwards requested to do such.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability conundrum. (none / 0)

Edwards was campaigning all over the nation for senate and congressional candidates. He was also all over the nation working on ballot issues to raise the minmum wage and standing on the picket line with workers who wanted to organise themselves into unions. Yeah, he was pretty sought after and very busy too.


by Quinton on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:30:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

SOUGHT ? (none / 0)

Yeah, sought like the Kool-Aid man barging in on children everywhere.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 07:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. (none / 0)

He doesn't just do well in the South. He stacks up better across the board.


by bruh21 on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:45:31 AM EST

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

B y the way- polling univesally disagrees with you, but whatever. You see what you want to see, and other actual pollsters say something entirely different. I am going to trust people trained at this.


by bruh21 on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 12:46:51 AM EST

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

"Electability" has a non-negligible effect on election results.  This has been studied by some political scientists.  This is why certain non-phone surveys record data about the person taking the poll and why others have chosen to use automated phone polling.

I would have to do research (that I am not really inclined to do right now, I admit) and look back, but I believe that historically blacks and women have underperformed polling results in actual elections because some people (and not just white men) feel a need to not look racist and sexist in front of a human poll-taker and say that they will vote for someone they won't in order to look good.  For example, I seem to recall that people are less willing to admit they will vote against a woman candidate if they are answering questions given to them by a female.  

Should progressives pretend that it doesn't matter?  Publicly perhaps, but it seems politically negligent to me to be unaware that "electability" actually can matter and that Democrats should at least be taking steps to mitigate the effect in the event that Obama or Clinton win the nomination.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:32:00 AM EST

Hmmm (none / 0)

"I would have to do research (that I am not really inclined to do right now, I admit)"

Yes. You do need to do research. Start Here.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/6 /21/2287/61665


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm (none / 0)

I could start there if it actually cited any books or articles.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 04:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

Oh Please!  If one more person goes on about the "Bradley effect" one more time, I'm going to hurl.  That was some 25 years ago, for heaven's sake.  Do you think that no progress has been made in that time in people's attitudes?  The fact that Obama was able to do well among whites in rural, conservative southern Illinois should put this idea to rest.  Furthermore, even though Harold Ford lost the senate race in Tennesee, the election results pretty much matched the pre-election polls, indicating that there was no Bradley effect.  Can we please put this discredited idea out of its misery now?


"In the face of impossible odds, people who love their country can change it." Barack Obama
by whitbreadale on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

The only true indicator of electability we have at this point so far ahead of the primaries is amount of contributors to the campaign. Chances are someone who gives money will actually vote that way.  Beyond that, we don't know why people answer the way they do in the polls, and we don't know how this year will be different from other years.


by Doug Dilg on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:50:28 AM EST

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

Well, then in that case.

Barack Obama is the most electable.


"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama
by BlueDiamond on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 01:57:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A picture tells a thousand words . . . (none / 0)

Some issues are just not black and white.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 02:07:26 AM EST

Re: Edwards, Clinton and Obama. The electability (none / 0)

So I am going to stick my neck out on a limb here and suggest that John Edwards may be gearing his campaign up to play a subtle race/gender card strategy.

It's not sticking your head out-- it's part and parcel of your strategy not to have the discussion.

There will be no tolerance of those that easily throw such accusations out here.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 04:40:15 AM EST

And of Chris Cillizza? (none / 0)

Of the Washington Post or Lynn Sweet who you quoted.

What does electability mean?  Are seriously implying it is about Edwards platform alone?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 10:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Electability (none / 0)

is important and captures something in reality. People don't vote for Kucinich based on his looks and manners. Now, whatever you think of that it is a fact that you will have to take into account.

Saying that "electability" is a bogus idea is saying that we cannot fairly well predict people's attitudes and actions, which is false.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 07:33:00 AM EST

Re: Electability (none / 0)

No, Kucinich polls poorly because his ideas are out of step with the overwhelming majority of Democrats, let alone the country.  Personaly, I kinda like him.


by NicholasWalter on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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