Democratic, Republican Nominations At A Glance, June 24th

Democratic Nomination, At a Glance, June 24
State polls are all May 4--June 24. Last update: June 24, 4:10 pm eastern
State Est. Date # Polls Clinton Obama Edwards Richardson
Net Avail Cash Mar 31 Q1 $23.4M $17.7M $9.6M $5.0M
Iowa Jan 07 7 22.7% 19.6% 26.7% 8.0%
New Hampshire Jan 15 5 33.6% 20.6% 16.0% 9.4%
Nevada Jan 19 2 39.5% 16.5% 14.0% 6.5%
South Carolina Jan 22 5 29.2% 27.6% 16.8% --
Florida Jan 29 7 36.9% 18.1% 16.6% 5.2%
National Feb 05 NA 34.0% 22.1% 12.2% 3.0%

It's all about Iowa. If Clinton were to win Iowa, she will probably run the table. She probably would even be OK if she finishes in second in Iowa, as long as Obama isn't the winner. But what happens if she finishes third, or even fourth in the state? Will it be enough to wipe out her lead in New Hampshire? That is a difficult question to answer. The primary calendar remains another huge question mark. Iowa and New Hampshire might move as much as one full month before Nevada, which changes the strategic landscape entirely. Richardson's continued rise, as he now surpasses the 5% threshold even in Florida, is also interesting.

Republican Nomination, At a Glance, June 24
State polls are all May 30--June 24. Last update: June 24, 4:10 pm eastern
State Est. Date # Polls Giuliani Romney F. Thompson McCain
Net Avail Cash Mar 31 Q1 $9.7M $9.1M -- $2.6M
Iowa Jan 07 3 11.7% 28.3% 14.0% 8.0%
New Hampshire Jan 15 3 17.7% 27.3% 10.7% 17.7%
Nevada Jan 19 2 19.0% 21.5% 20.5% 12.0%
South Carolina Jan 22 2 17.5% 13.5% 26.0% 11.0%
Florida Jan 29 2 30.5% 10.0% 17.0% 11.5%
National Feb 05 NA 26.3% 9.6% 17.3% 16.8%

For Republicans, I have removed all state polls that were conducted before Thompson's announcement. His entrance represents a major watershed in the Republican nomination campaign that renders all pre-Thompson polls meaningless. As far as the horserace goes, I know I have already written it several times, but since it feels so good, I'll write it again anyway: McCain is finished. His best showing is a tie for second in New Hampshire, where he trails Romney by almost ten points. The other three, Giuliani, Romney and Thompson, are very difficult to separate right now, although neither the trends nor the early state polls favor Giuliani. Can Giuliani survive poor early state showings and still do well in both Florida and on February 5th,, or will he goes the way of McCain, simply with more lag time? Can Romney translate strong early state showings into big time results on February 5th, or will he start to fade now that Thompson is a real competitor for the anti-McCain / Giuliani vote? Will Thompson continue to rise, and eventually wipe the other candidates away, or will he stagnate in the early states, and remain a regional (Southern and Mountain West) candidate? Right now, this is one helluva horserace, with far more twists and turns than the Democratic side of the campaign.

Notes
  • Last week's results.
  • National polling averages taken from Pollster.com. All early state polls can also be found at Pollster.com.
  • For Democrats, early state polls that only include Clinton, Edwards and Obama in the questions were not included. This means one Florida poll and one New Hampshire poll conducted in the May 4-June 24 window were not included.
  • For Democrats, early state polls that include Gore in the question were only included when Gore-less results were unavailable. One Florida poll included Gore.
  • "Net Available Cash" equals cash on hand minus debts minus amount raised for general election. More information can be found at Open Secrets.
  • Dates for primaries are personal estimations, and subject to change. Right now, I believe South Carolina, New Hampshire, and Iowa will all move up from their current dates.
  • February 5th is not actually a national primary, but due to the large number of states holding nomination events on that date, national polls are used as a placeholder.


Display:


Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination (none / 0)

I wonder if there are going to be polls for the February 5th states? It would be cool if they started polling individual states that had their primaries on that day to get an idea of who's doing well where. It would probably mirror the national numbers since not a lot of campaigning is going on anywhere else, but you never know how geography, etc. works out


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:19:38 PM EST

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination (none / 0)

Most of the February 5th states have been polled at least once. Many of the polls include non-candidates or are too old to be represenative, but the information's there. So far as I can see, geography makes relatively little difference.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination (none / 0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_pol ling_for_the_Democratic_Party_%28United_ States%29_presidential_primaries%2C_2008

Sorry, forgot to give that link. The map's a pretty good representation, but it relies on the most recent poll, so caution is advised (eg the most recent CA poll is massively different to all the others, suggesting a fantastically different screen.)


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination At A Glance, (none / 0)

     I think it's all about Romney now.  He's already passed through the most difficult part of the campaign.  He managed to take the leads in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada while flip-flopping on every important issue.  It must be his "presidential" appearance.  If today were the Iowa caucuses, Romney would win and then blow the rest of the field away as he wins New Hampshire and Nevada.
     I see Fred Thompson as a Giuliani-type candidate: lots of bluster, but lots of skeletons in the closet, and not a lot of real accomplishments (he's a lobbyist!).  Fred Thompson wants to be president, but he doesn't want to talk to little people and campaign.  He wants the nomination on a silver platter, and I don't think he will get it.  Romney's been planning his run for the presidency since nursery school it seems.  There aren't that many more problems with Romney that haven't already been publicized.  I think you will get your wish, Chris; Romney will be the nominee.  
    I think it's clear that Giuliani's time has passed.  It was a brief flirtation, but Giuliani doesn't have any hardcore supporters in the Republican primary.
Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:59:06 PM EST

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination At A Glance, (none / 0)

I think Clinton has multiple comeback opportunities if she does poorly in any of the early states. With early voting both Clinton and Obama will have delegates from other states before Iowa ever votes so they may enter the post Iowa campaign with a cushion. If Edwards does pull off a win and gets a bounce the cushion makes it harder in some of the states afterwards because a number of people will have already voted for Clinton and Obama. I think in that scenario that Edwards may cut into Obama more than Clinton because she has some of the most hardcore support. A scenario where Edwards gets a short lived bounce but still is far behind in the delegate count is also possible especially if Clinton and Obama hold on to enough money to stay on the air in February while Edwards only has momentum and no cash.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:01:27 PM EST

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination At A Glance, (none / 0)

When are these states going to be voting in Dec.

IA moves to Jan. 7th that is when early voting starts in CA.

hOW CAN DELEGATES BE ALLOCATED BEFORE VOTING ENDS?


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

that will be the meme, and it will be impossable to recover from that in my opinion, even dems who like her will wonder why she can't do well in a sate that sees the candidates on a 1 on 1 basis,with the polls showing half of americans not willing to vote for her losing the first state won't look good.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

Lots of nominees have lost Iowa. I've posted this several times on other threads. if you need me to post it here just say so.

In fact McCain came in 5th place by like 19 pts in Iowa and still won NH.


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

Your talking about Republicans. Dem candidate won IA in 76, 80 84 96 2000 and 2004.

All went on to win the nomination


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

That response is so weak i won't even justify it with a response


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

It's the truth 5 of the last 6 winners of the IA caucus for democrats  went on to win the nomination.

Those are the facts, I can;t help it that you want to just rely on your biaS TOWARDS hILLARY to argue against those facts.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

Has there been a poll of Dems who prefer "anybody but Hillary" or something similiar.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (3.00 / 1)

"Your talking about Republicans. Dem candidate won IA in 76, 80 84 96 2000 and 2004.

All went on to win the nomination"

by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:00:52 PM EST

I see you left out '92, when Paul Tsongas and Bill Clinton finished a distant second and third, in low single digits behind Tom Harkin. It could also be argued that nobody won in '76 -- literally. In '76 a plurality (37%) actually remained uncommitted, making Carter's 28% kind of a second place finish. But you may note that neither of the above actually turned out to be as "unelectable" as all that. An of course in '72 Edmund Muskie won IA handily, making George McGovern the only Democratic presidential candidate in the last 35 years not to go on to be president after losing the Iowa caucuses.

I also note that three of most recent polls taken this year in IA have shown Hillary Clinton with a slight lead or tied for first place. This despite Edwards' early advantage of never having actually stopped campaigning there. Edwards began the season in IA with his 2004 organization already in place and he's easily the one with the most riding the IA contest. He has basically bet the ranch on it.

But this is a silly conversation to be having right now anyway. Recall the results of the DeMoines Register poll taken in July of '03:

Dean    23%
Gephardt    21%
Kerry    14%
Lieberman    10%
Edwards    5%
Undecided    21%

A lot can happen in 7 months and the campaigns won't really begin in earnest until September. Right now geeks like us are the only ones even paying much attention.


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: unelectable if she bombs in Iowa (none / 0)

I meant Des Moines Register poll.


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic, Republican Nomination At A Glance, (none / 0)

The GOP race is at best confusing at this point. It may come down to whether Romney or Thompson can solidify the hardcore religious right.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:03:55 PM EST

as long as Obama doesn't win Iowa (none / 0)

Edwards supporters who don't want Hillary to be the nominee for whatever reason are probably going to have some choices to make. If he really raises less money than Bill Richardson it's going to be hard to consider him a leading contender for the nomination anymore, barring Gore it's going to be Hillary or Obama.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:39:42 PM EST

Re: as long as Obama doesn't win Iowa (none / 0)

I agree with some of that. Edwards is in danger of no longer being a viable candidate. That will make fundraising even harder than it already is. I think some of his trial lawyer money will go to Clinton.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: as long as Obama doesn't win Iowa (none / 0)

I think Edwards would likely endorse Obama at that point.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting litmus test there (none / 0)

An Edwards endorsement of Obama would certainly indicate that Edwards values principle over personal ambition.  

Endorsing Obama would probably kill any chance that Edwards would have for a cabinet position in a Clinton Administration--so my guess is that he would hold off on doing so, because I suspect he would love to be, say, Attorney General under a Clinton Administration.


by paul minot on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 10:22:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: as long as Obama doesn't win Iowa (3.00 / 1)

The danger will appear if he starts losing in Iowa on a regular basis. I don't see funding affecting that until at least a month into Q3.

Moreover if Richardson has a surge in Q2 that's likely to be due to a lot of maxed-out donations. Before Edwards even considers withdrawing Trippi will try to run an anti-Beltway campaign. And even if that fails, I don't see Edwardsn withdrawing before Biden does.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: as long as Obama doesn't win Iowa (none / 0)

gmafb, you realize that Kerry was broke in Sept, and loaned $5M to his campaign and won with that amount?

You get over $5M, and it's enough to win the first states... the difference between having $5M and having $20M for Iowa is next to nothing.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recent poll from Florida (none / 0)

I'm not sure if these numbers have been posted on MyDD. They are from the GOP firm Strategic Vision:

http://www.strategicvision.biz/political /florida_poll_062107.htm

Hillary leads at 37% to 21% for Obama and 20% for Edwards.

An interesting question is at bottom:

17. When making your selection for a presidential candidate, what are you looking for most in the candidate, charisma, experience, or ideology? (Democrats Only)
Ideology 36%
Experience 27%
Charisma 22%
Undecided 15%

I still have no idea where the Romney chatter stems from. The Republican nomination will be Thompson or Giuliani, with Thompson the more likely winner if he doesn't flop during an actual campaign. To beat Giuliani you have to steal his lead in the delegate rich states, not merely defeat him in early states like Iowa and New Hampshire. Based on recent polls in Texas and this one in Florida, Thompson appears to be the only one who can do that.

Giuliani leads Thompson in Florida, 30%-24%. McCain and Romney are nowhere in sight, at 11% and 8%.

Also of note in Florida, Charlie Crist has a whopping 73-16 approval rating, compared to 31-62 for George Bush.


by Gary Kilbride on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:45:24 PM EST

Re: Recent poll from Florida (3.00 / 1)

These early numbers are soft. Mystery pollster say's all pollsters should ask how firmly committed are you to your candidate.

What they found in a NH poll only 9% WERE FIRMLY COMMITTED TO THEIR CANDIDATE AND 78% of Democrats, 87$ of Republicans AND 87% of Independents indicate that they could change their mind on who they will support.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recent poll from Florida (none / 0)

Very good point. It's been my experience in Iowa that there are a few isolated pockets of strong supporters, but a lot of people are still waiting to get to know all the candidates. A lot of people even say outright, "I won't decide until the week before the caucuses."


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recent poll from Florida (3.00 / 1)

Thompson looks good on paper, but there's little evidence to suggest he's capable of running a good campaign, much less one as dirty as this Republican primary will be.

Whereas Romney may be a Mormon flip-flopper, but he's come down on the right side in the end.

I can see Thompson dominating in the south due to cultural absolutism, but I think otherwise it'll be a Giuliani-Romney contest, with Giuliani weak outside the northeast and the west coast.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recent poll from Florida (none / 0)

Florida has a lot of New York retirees. I don't see Guiliani's lead there as indicative of the rest of the South. My bet is that they love Thompson. Anglo-Saxon name, Fatherly look, not from New York...


by antiHyde on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gary I think (none / 0)

Fred's the big favorite but if Romney wins the first 2 states who knows if the momemntum is stoppable, as for the dems Obama needs to outperform Hillary in Iowa,I don't think Edwards has much of a shot at the nomination right now no matter what happens in Iowa and I think some of his more liberal supporters in the state might take a second look at Obama if he loooks like he doesn't have much of a shot.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:53:47 PM EST

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

I think this race in IA is wide open and I think Obama IS PLAYING HIS CARDS just right.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

There was a field report from an Obama volunteer on the ground in Iowa (in response to a diary I had on DailyKos) who reported that Iowa is not going very well for Obama at this point especially in the rural areas. That is of course anecdotal.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

Because you are an Obama supporter perhaps?


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

Do you have evidence or is this just an uninformed assumption?


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

Polling that has been done on a two person race shows that Clinton increases her lead if Edwards drops out (or no longer is viable and written off by the press). The older voters that Edwards attracts are more likely to go to Clinton than Obama. Clinton currently has a wide lead among older voters anyway and it would probably add a few more points to her numbers.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gary I think (none / 0)

I'm not sure if that's necessarily true. When gallup does the trial heat between Obama and Clinton, Obama's numbers increase by 16 points from the 8-person poll. Hillary's support increases by 14. Considering that the majority of those increases come from would-be Edwards supporters, it's pretty clear that his support is evenly split. One could also argue that Richardson and Biden supporters who are big on experience would naturally go to Hillary, thus padding her numbers. In the Gallup poll from a few weeks ago, Biden and Richardson had a total of 8 percent. Edwards achieved 13 percent. Considering that Hillary most likely gets the lion share of the Richardson/Biden support, Edwards supporters most likely slightly favors Obama.

This analysis is based on national polling and the dynamic may be completely different in Iowa.


Obama2008....?
by ctnewbie18 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

still too early... (none / 0)

I think Q2 fundraising numbers will do a lot to winnow the field on the Democratic side (to Hillary and Obama). Edwards is basically spending 100% of his time in Iowa, and it's really all he's got. How will that affect Iowans' choices? It's impossible to say right now. Maybe they won't give a crap about how Edwards is doing elsewhere. Maybe they will.

If they do, then suddenly it becomes nearly impossible for Hillary to win Iowa. There definitely seems to be an "Anybody But Hillary" consensus for about 2/3 of Iowa Democratic activists.

According to Zogby's numbers, Dean's explosion began in July, after his blockbuster Q2 - not Q3 - fundraising.

Hillary is way overrated.


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:54:42 PM EST

Hillary's not overrated (2.66 / 3)

 As bad a candidate as she is at so many levels, the reality remains that Clinton laps the field among low-information, personality-cult voters -- and there are many, many more of those in the Democratic Party than we'd care to admit.

 Obama's not really trying to beat her. Edwards is, but the power structure is arraying its forces against him -- he'll need to be FDR to overcome that.

 I think it's going to come down to Gore. If he enters, all bets are off. If he doesn't, get ready for yet another hold-our-noses candidate from the Dem side...


by Master Jack on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's not overrated (none / 0)

Clinton does not attract personality cult voters. She attracts the traditional Democratic base that Carter, Clinton, Gore, Kerry did in past election cycles. They are the working and middle class who look for a candidate who will stand up for them.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right (none / 0)

You're right - traditional Democrats like Mondale, Dukakis, Gore 2000 and Kerry. Candidates that bomb in the general election because they lack that elusive quality we know as charisma.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right (none / 0)

1. Traditional base democrats that elected Clinton twice making him the only democrat since Truman to win re election/

Can you name me the last time a progressive won the presidency? I can't

Also I believe Kerry was a progressive candidate. Oops. That was a giant mistake in selecting a candidate.


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right (3.00 / 1)


  Kerry didn't lose because he was a progressive. Kerry lost because he ran a godawful campaign, and hired godawful advisers. "Ignore the swiftboaters, John. They'll go away."

 


by Master Jack on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right (3.00 / 2)

Don't be an idiot. Gore and Kerry didn't bomb. They came damn close. They could and should have run better campaigns, but anybody who argues that they bombed is lying to himself.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's not overrated (none / 0)

    And how, pray tell, has Hillary stood up for the working class? What's her plan to deal with poverty in America? Does she have any?


by Master Jack on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards in Iowa (none / 0)

I don't understand why John Edwards isn't polling higher in Iowa.  He and Elizabeth are really working the entire state and have been for so long.  Has he plateaued there?  Hillary and Obama have only really begun to grow their organizations in Iowa.  It does not look good for Edwards.  


by samueldem on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:21:33 PM EST

EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

and it is HUGE.  We all hear about Edwards and Iowa.  But look a sec at how close he is to Obama in several other states!

If I were advising Edwards - and, considering that actually WINNING the nom is the goal - I would keep the strategy of trying to win Iowa, but then I'd pump money, resources, and time campaigning in those states where he has a chance to overtake Obama for second place behind Hillary.

You see, getting his win in Iowa is nothing if it's not parlayed into winning other places.  And to win other places, it'd be nice to go into these states - after having won Iowa - in second place.  This would make it more likely and easier for him to vault ahead of Hillary after the momentum from the Iowa victory.  

Surely it is easier to win a state if you only have to leadfrog ONE candidate instead of two.  Attaining second-place status in some of these states prior to an Iowa win would keep him within striking distance of wresting the states away from Hillary.  If I were Obama, I'd be concerned about this.

What do y'all think about this idea?


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:35:25 PM EST

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

I assume thats what Edwards is doing. Probably because thats what all campaigns do...


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

what a snarky asshole response.  i see from reading your other posts that you have neither the intelligence nor personality to deliver a thoughful contribution to the discussion.


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

But that is what campaigns do... isn't it?


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

um, ya think?

now you're condescending, too?  I hate the know-it-all assholes here sometimes.  They get all talking down to you when they have no idea who people are or what kind of profession or expertise they have.

world dictator (what kind of stupid name is that, anyway?) is some obsessive-compulsive fool who is too stupid to read the original post for what it really meant.


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

"what a snarky asshole response.  i see from reading your other posts that you have neither the intelligence nor personality to deliver a thoughful contribution to the discussion."

If you have a problem with one of my comments I'd be happy to talk to you about it.


by world dictator on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

If he doesn't win Iowa, narrative will kill him. Polling second in a lot of states beforehand won't help him, as the bounce from Iowa and NH will negate that.

He needs some strength in later states, but to a certain extent his campaign is going for the cheaper option - win Iowa, get a bounce into NH, try to take at least two early states and be second on February 6th, then take down whoever the front-runner is.

He has neither the stature nor the money to be in front (or probably even second) nationwide prior to Iowa.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

well, I agree, but maybe you missed the point.  you cannot ENTIRELY count on MO from Iowa to win you other states.  yes, it helps, but he has to be within striking distance to do it.  and, also, polling second in front of big-money Obama very much affects the "narrative" to the better, doncha think?

he may not have enough time or $ to do it, but he should try.  even though he is betting on IA, Dean proved that yes, putting your eggs into the IA basket may be a good strategy, but not every single last one of your eggs.

Add that to early voting, and if he's second in some early voting states, that DEFINITELY directly helps him to perhaps win those post-Iowa.  Early votes with happen in a lot of states BEFORE the caucuses.  Those early votes are money in the bank and the math tells you that he gets more votes being in second behind Obama instead of third.  And there's the good media narrative again of him in second place in front of the big money-raising machine of Obama.


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's called the slingshot (3.00 / 1)

Edwards is clinging to mid-20's in Iowa. He's getting annihilated in NH and SC. Some polls show him doing ok in FL, but nobody has really spent much time there yet.

Given the sequence at this point, where is Edwards supposed to slingshot into? If he wins Iowa, it won't even generate that much momentum, because Edwards has practically lived there since 2003. And if he doesn't, he's dead.


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

Edwards does not have the money to do that in many states. At one time there was talk that SC might be his firewall but it is in such a weak third there now I doubt that is possible. I think he needs a new strategy.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

I agree, and your point holds true for all candidates... winning Iowa, and only Iowa, means nothing -- otherwise, Dick Gephardt would have been president and Tom Vilsack would still be in the race.  

Having never lived in one of the early primary states, I can't comment from past experience, but I wonder how often NH people change their votes and/or make their final decisions based on the perceived momentum from Iowa, SC people based on IA & NH, etc. (well, at least in the recent past, there's no etc., as it's basically been over by SC)


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

you know what?  don't you think that'd make an awesome poll, to find out just what kind of %, even a rough estimate, of how many primary voters in NH actually do change their votes based on Iowa?

It'd be a simple poll.  And even if not wholly accurate, could give someone something to work with.  

I suspect it's more people than anyone thinks.  And I am sure if it can be done, Hillary's people have already commissioned that poll.


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

To paraphrase others, no one ever went broke underestimating the lemming-like mentality of the American voter.  I can kinda understand deciding not to bother voting in the primary if your candidate got creamed in Iowa, but I can't really understand how someone could have chosen a candidate but then switch votes based on what a bunch of people halfway across the country think.  And I also can't understand caring enough about the system to vote in a primary yet being apathetic enough to vote for whomever is ahead by the time your turn rolls around.


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:32:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

great point.  lemming-like indeed.  I am sure NH voters tell people (and think) that they are holier-than-thou and would NEVER be lemming-like and follow someone else.  But, hey, they ARE Americans.  And I live in the area, and I must say, NH voters are no more or no less as sophisticated, worldly, or intelligent as other states' voters.  In fact, a lot, a lot of NH voters in the Dem primary are fairly new residents who moved in from Massachusetts.

Perhaps Edwards winning Iowa would be better than people think it will be.  It makes picking him safe for the sheep in NH.  They jumped off the cliff like lemmings for the awful John Kerry, didn't they?


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (3.00 / 1)

NH voters made two leaps in '04, first jumping off of Dean (if memory serves, he was trouncing Kerry, at least at one point) and then hopping onto Kerry.  

As someone noted elsewhere in this thread, very little of the current polling means anything, as it is very soft support -- I think the number was 9% have decided who they'll definitely vote for.  So perhaps what you and I are half-tounge-in-cheeck suggesting is the inanity/fickleness of the voter is really just the inattention of the voter.  When someone calls their homes and asks for a name, sure they give a name, but they haven't yet decided on that candidate, and feel no reason to do so until they are in the voting booth.


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

It also occurs to me that Edwards suffered from some severe bad luck in '04, geographically.  His second place finish in Iowa was almost as much of a story as Kerry's actual win, yet in NH Edwards had to go against not one but TWO officials from border states (lest one doubt the importance of bordering a state, look no further than Paul Tsongas in '92).  Since a lot of votes were already in essence locked up, his post-Iowa bounce had a ceiling.  

At that point, for reasons I still don't understand, the race was over once Kerry managed to avoid falling on his face in the early Feb. primaries, where he won 5 of 7 on that first Tuesday.  


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EDWARDS' PEOPLE ARE MISSING THIS: (none / 0)

yep.  and, IMO, edwards haveing what, 36% in Iowa, only TWO points behind the establishment party boy Kerry, was a much much bigger story than Kerry's win.  Especially considering the Dean/Gephardt war.

The problem with Edwards, both in 04 and now, is his incompetent campaign staff (not including Joe Trippi currently).  They are a bunch of rubes.  They failed to capitalize on Edwards' showing in 2004 and I doubt they'd mount much of a story after 2008's Iowa.  In 1992 Bill Clinton's campaign knew exactly how to spin his losss in NH to a win.

Anecdote from 2003.  I sent Edwards a check for $250.  I was a trial lawyer at the time (I do civil rights stuff now).  That would have been a first of perhaps a few donations I would have made to him.  But, not only did I not get a thank you in the mail, but they also failed to solicit me for a follow-up contribution at all.  I got not one more piece the whole election cycle after that.  

At that point, I knew he wouldn't win.  Even with no voting taking place yet, I knew his campaign people were in over their head.  And they were and they are.  I mean I just sent the guy Eldridge in Massachusetts who is running for a CD a check and he sent a follow-up thank you and another solicitation pretty quickly.


The only balls the Clintons ever show are against their fellow Democrats, especially progressives.
by jgarcia on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Discerning MYDD commenters (none / 0)

This thread is hilarious.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:38:45 PM EST

Re: The Discerning MYDD commenters (none / 0)

I agree. Some people just don't understand, that if a candidate doesn't WIN in Iowa, then he/she becomes a loser in the first race. Once tagged a loser, it's hard to recover from that.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Discerning MYDD commenters (none / 0)

Check me if I'm wrong, but as others have pointed out on this very thread, there are a lot of people who lose Iowa (or NH) but win the nomination.  Neither Clinton in 92 or Reagan in 80 won Iowa.

But to be my own devil's advocate, I might wonder if in those years Iowa was won by a favorite son and thus it didn't look like a loss for the other candidates because the outcome was basically preordained (e.g. Harkin in '92)


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hard is not impossible (none / 0)

Two Republicans recovered from a contested loss - Reagan in 1980. George Bush is 1988.

They were both on the ropes and fought for their lives in NH.

I have used these quotes before

"I paid for this microphone!"

"Here I stand warts and all. Thank you New Hampshire."

If Reagan or Bush had lost in NH, they would have been toast.

If Clinton wins Iowa, it is over.

If Clinton loses Iowa, she must win New Hampshire.

No candidate in the modern Iowa Era, 1976 on, has lost both a contested caucus in Iowa and contested primary in NH.

That is fact.


by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:57:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New Early States (3.00 / 1)

Perhaps the hardest part about handicapping this race (well, besides the fact that we are still 7 months away from voting...) is the unknown influence of the many Feb. 5 states.  Iowa, NH, and perhaps to a lesser extent SC all have a tradition of voting in primaries.  I would not be surprised (and if anyone has data, please share) if voter participation in the caucus/primary in those states has increased over time as residents became more and more aware of their role in shaping the nominees.  

As a result, polling companies can come up with fairly reliable metrics for identifying likely voters in these states.  For the mega-primary=day states, however, all bets are off.  Even in presidential elections this country can't crack 60%, and a primary is likely to be, what, five times less, ten times less?  Identifying those 5 - 15% of the population of a state that will actually vote in a primary is going to be higly error prone.


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:41:50 PM EST

Re: New Early States (3.00 / 1)

Turnout for the Iowa caucuses tends to be pretty tiny. As a percentage of the voting age population (VAP), you're talking single digits. Caucuses are all-day affairs -- held in the dead of winter Iowa's case -- where people have to be there from beginning to end to be counted. So it's not like just showing up to vote. You have to really want to participate.

Nationwide, turn-outs for primary elections also tend to be relatively small in terms of the VAP. Something on the order of 20-30% is probably fairly typical on average, if memory serves. But remember that not all states have open primaries. In places where only registered party members can vote, you're basically eliminating a third to one half of the voter base right off the bat. Then of course, all the same structural provisions that help boost turn-out for regular elections also affect primaries, such as same-day registration, early voting and vote by mail; as can extraneous factors such as a hotly contested governor or senate race. Turnout for one party or the other will also tend to be lower if the head of the ticket is running unopposed, as sitting presidents typically do.

So it's a pretty mixed bag and turnout can vary widely by state-by-state and by year-by-year as a result. It's probably a reasonable assumption that primary election turnout and caucus attendance might tend to be higher in the earlier primary states, as interest in the elections tends to drop off in general once the race is perceived as decided. But you might find that a little difficult to prove in practice.


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Early States (none / 0)

Excellent points, especially regarding the nature of the Iowa caucus.  In your opinion, does that make polling in Iowa more or less reliable?  Yes, the barrier to participation is obviously higher, but that might also make identification of actual voters easier.  


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Early States (3.00 / 1)

As a shameless poll junkie (I still have my spreadsheets of meta-averages from 03/04) my take is that polling in Iowa is a tricky proposition at best for a couple of reasons. One is certainly the difficulty of locating enough likely caucus-goers to make up a statistically significant sample. The other is that people start polling there stupid early in the cycle and Iowans are famous for trying to keep an open mind until they've met (yes, met) all the candidates.

Iowans also seem prone to flights of fancy early on, before finally settling at the last minute on fairly centrist candidates as a rule. So it's probably not so much that the early polls are that out of whack with the pubic opinion they seek to quantify, but more a matter of those opinions being subject to over the course of the campaign season.

In terms of the first problem though, the Des Moines Register/Seltzer polls are widely regarded as the gold standard in Iowa. I believe their final polls done a week or two before the caucuses have a near perfect record for predicting the actual results. Looking back over 2003 polls, Research 2000, Pew and Democracy Corps and the Quad City time all seemed to produce believable results. Zogby and SurveyUSA had a tendency to produce the outlyers (what else is new). I note however that no one saw Edwards coming though, up until about two weeks before the election.


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Republican side (3.00 / 1)

I honestly cannot understand how Romney is leading in the early primary states (of course, I can't understand how Republicans vote the way they do anyway, so perhaps I shouldn't waste brain cells on this...)

One theory, and I don't even know if I believe it myself, but it does explain the available data, is that the Republican voting base is not as blindly dogmatic as we think, and they are thinking to themselves, perhaps subconsciously, crap, we're likely going to get our butts whooped in '08, the cards are clearly stacked against us.  McCain is too old and too pro-endless-Iraq war to win the general election, and Rudy is just a vampiric disaster waiting to happen.  So that leaves us with Mitt, and I don't really care if he has no backbone, he's not going to do anything stupid to tick us off, and his fluff will play well with the many clueless ndependents we need to win this election.  

I don't think they're going to break for Thompson unless/until he gets his boots on the ground and kisses babies and eats pulled pork with the locals.  Everyone likes having their arse kissed, and Iowans and New Hampshirites now view it as their god-given right.


Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:08:24 PM EST

Re: Republican side (none / 0)

At this stage of the race, before the campaigns have really begun in earnest and the general public not really paying much attention yet, all polls are really measuring is press coverage and name recognition. My guess is that Romney and Thompson probably benefit greatly from being least known among the most talked about -- i.e., from being guys people have heard of but not the guys they already know they don't like. It's easier to project your own ideals onto people who are vaguely defined. They're both pretty photogenic also (if not very tall in Romney's case) which frankly never hurts. I even hear they both smell pretty good... (oh gawd, it's going to be a long year).


by CalD on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In Iowa (none / 0)

We also have to think about the format of the Iowa caucus.  Hillary's lead is based from "women with needs" who are paying little to no attention to the race currently... Obama's critics call his supporters cult-like.  I think Obama's people are much more likely to go to a three hour caucus and convince other people, who canid. don't make, to caucus with them.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:27:08 PM EST


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