interesting. he clearly made the calculation that using the "we are a nation of laws" frame will gain him more votes than it will lose him since, let's face it, the right is more exercised about this issue than the left. it is disappointing that he's using rightwing framing but the left has no cohesive take on immigration. and in fact I've seen first hand people who on all other issues are progressive, suddenly they get very protectionist (that's the polite word for it) about illegal immigrantion.

I totally agree here.

It does need to be divided.  Border Security is a National Issue, Homeland Security.  People already here, are hell, here, working, raising families.  The two don't jive to me and never had.  You make a very good and valid point.

There really are many dimensions to the immigration issue. You are very right in pointing out the human side, and immigration is definitely a social justice issue, particularly when you consider the reasons the Mexican workers came into the country in the first place and the way they're often treated when they arrive. It seems like Senator Obama envoked this sentiment in the first comment of his you quote.

He also right about the wage concerns--this is a huge issue in the Midwest, and we're not even close to the Mexican border. Shameless businesses that take advantage of illegal immigrants by paying them unfair wages because they can't get help from the labor department illustrate one of the major reasons why we so desperately need an immigration bill this session. It really does hurt a lot of people in blue-collar jobs who have to compete with that. The wage issue is a real one.

But I think it would be unwise to ignore the "legal immigration" reforms that need to take place. Obviously we're not getting enough legal immigrants for our country's employers (while many of the businesses are seeking out illegals to exploit and make a better profit, there really are a lot of jobs that would simply go unfilled if it weren't for immigrants. The economy of the Southwestern states is especially dependent on immigrant labor).

I'm not really sure what your problem with Obama's positions are. He's spoken against a guest worker program, which is one of the worst moves against humanizing immigrants, and has often spoken in the very tones you advocate. Here he is speaking about the new point system that no longer places a premium on family:

The scheme "constitutes at minimum a radical experiment in social engineering and a departure from our tradition of having family and employers invite immigrants to come," Obama said, adding that he would work to phase it out.

I agree about the need to emphasize the fact that these immigrants are people. But immigration is also one of the most important economic issues on the country's agenda. I think Obama has an excellent stance on immigrant issues, and he's worked with Rep. Luis Gutierrez of Illinois to author needed legislation to make it easier for people to get into the country legally by making immigration fees more reasonable.

Build a fence, followed by some kind of amnesty for those here.

One thing the WSJ cognoscenti complex does not understand is that, while free trade in labor is theoretically good, blah blah, it's also unacceptable to let Mexican oligarchs export their poorest people here while they continue pilfering their own economy. It causes infinite downward pressure on wages and very heavy pressure on all public goods.

I agree with the first poster...I think Obama handled it the best way it could have been handled.

There is not a main talking point memo for democrats on immigration...While you have the Ted Kennedy democrats that looks at this immigration problem on a humanitarian point of view, you also have more conservative democrats that are very protectionist and bashes illegal immigrants for stealing their jobs and depressing wages...I call them "the lou dobbs democrats" because they are as ferocious as Dobbs and Tancredo on those immigrants

I agree with Ted Kennedy on immigration because you can't just tell 12 million people that've been raising families here, to just pick up their bags and leave...But with today's climate, democrats can frame on immigration can not solely be based on legalizing 12 million illegal immigrants...At best, you have to also talk about stopping future flow of immigrants,and stop businesses from Hiring illegal immigrants.

The best position on illegal immigration is a centrist position...Advocate for enforcement+legalization.

The right only wants enforcement while the left wants legalization...Just bring both side together as one...Do a better job of enforcing immigration law, but also legalize the 12 million illegal immigrants.

Why is Obama sponsoring an Amendment to the Immigrstion Bill which states that the department of justice would NOT have to check the legal status of every worker hired in America, just when there is reasonable suspicion that someone has been hired who is not authorized to work in the USA.

I was very surprised to see a presidential candidate (other than bat-sh*t crazy McCain) get so far out in front on such a complicatedly divisive issue like immigration reform.

Immigration is not a make-or-break issue as many right wing zealots suggested. I don't think this issue is really on voters' top priority list.

I think this is an incredibly important issue, and I think we are right in the movement to push Obama on this.

He is obviously walking a thin line trying to hold together a coalition that can win the White House in this conservative-dominated political climate and media, and it's a sad fact that we have a lot of work to do among our base on the issue of immigration. African Americans are one really obvious example, but union members and others, as someone mentioned, midwest Democrats, are the same.

That doesn't mean it is an excuse for him to be bad on this, and as I said, I believe it is our job as a movement to push our leaders on the things we care about.

annefrank is exactly the kind of democrats that ive been talking about...Their view on immigration parallels Tom Tancredo's ferocious rhetorics on immigrants.

Althought the Lou dobbs democrats are in the minority, they are as angry and hot headed as the extreme right conservatives.

You make the point about divorcing the discussion from national security, but the second part of the quote include focuses on the American worker's concern that the illegals are depressing wages.  This to me is separate from the national security issue.  In addition to the discusion on social justice, Democrats need illustrate how or why illegals contribute more to the economy than they take away. I think Obama lost the crowd because he failed to address how giving the illegals citizenship will change the illegal immigration problem in the context of wages.  Had he emphasized (and maybe you can shed light on this)the provisions against employers who hire illegals, I think there would have been more enthusiasm.  The right wing frame on immigration is two fold, it talks about border insecurity and it stokes the fear of illegals taking American jobs.  I think if Democratic leaders can calm the fears of the American worker (the Democratic base), then they'll be more receptive to the social justice aspect.  Bottomline is that if the average worker believes that they will lose their job, get paid less, or not get a job because of illegals, then  they're less likely to be sympathetic that a family is being separated.

What will he do to bring Mitch McConnell, James Dobson, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, John Boehner, Harry Reid, Sean Hanity, Nancy Pelosi, and Jessie Jackson together?

Tell me.

Rose Garden kegger?

I am a Democrat. My mother is a Democrat. My sisters and every member of my extended family are Democrats.

We are ALL, unequivocally AGAINST  THIS IMMIGRATION BILL.

Because, we see it as rewarding law breakers, plain and simple.

I'm Black, and where I see a Black man can be arrested for just breathing(just about these days), it galls me to NO END, that an entire group of CRIMINALS  are about to be rewarded with the Privilege of American Citizenship.

Don't run that joker line about them doing ' jobs Americans won't do', because, outside of agriculture, I don't remotely believe it - AT ALL.

And, outside of the ' So-called' Black leaders, I don't know of one Black person, ' in the barber or beauty shops', who is supportive of this Amnesty Farce.

So, I'm very pleased at what Obama said, considering that illegal immigration does nothing but HURT the working class of this country in general, and the Black community specifically.

A "Nation of Laws"

Otherwise, whenever a Democrat talks about a "nation of laws" all they're doing is enabling Republican hypocrisy that strikes at the very heart of the rule of law.

Presumes that the laws are just, and they're obviously not, if they result in the society we have now: one where people cross the border at great risk to their own lives to do nothing more than work a job on the other side.

It's akin to saying that as segregation is the law, you must segregate, because "this is a nation of laws and we cannot have those laws broken."  Well, no; to quote Thomas Jefferson, "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

He's right that "We cannot ignore the the very real concerns of Americans who are not worried about illegal immigration . . . because they fear it will result in lower wages," but the way to address those concerns, in my opinion, is to point out that as all workers - documented or not - struggle, the wealthiest Americans get richer and richer.  

There's no reason why they should consume so much of our wealth, and leave us to fight over scraps.  We all deserve a seat at the table, and it's the job of a government to ensure that is the case.

Did Obama explain in his speech why he side with right wing, anti-immigrant groups and joined with Republicans in sending to President Bush a bill which created the 700 mile fence along the U.S.-Mexican border?  

In September 2006, Senators Obama, Clinton, Dodd and Biden all voted for the 700 mile fence at the U.S.-Mexican border.  Reid, Feingold and Durbin all voted no.  They argued the fence was a political stunt, an international disgrace and a waste of money.  In the House, Representative Kucinich voted against the bill.

At the time, T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, the union that represents border-patrol agents, stated before the vote:  "We're disappointed that the 700-mile fence has become the centerpiece of reform, because fences don't stop people. As long as the employment magnet is turned on full force, people will continue to come across our borders in 125 degree heat."

Of the two other Presidential candidates, Edwards and Richardson, Edwards does not list immigration as an issue on his campaign website.  I do not know his specific position on the border fence.  

Richardson has spoken extensively on the topic of comprehensive immigration reform and in opposition to the border fence.  Richardson believes it will be ineffective (anyone hear of a ladder?) and is a terrible symbol for America.  In his view, it also creates a disincentive for Mexico to cooperate with the U.S. - which is essential for stopping illegal immigration.

Illegal  immigration is, at its root, primarily an economic problem: Mexicans  need jobs and incomes, and Mexico benefits greatly from illegal  immigration to the United States. It is a safety valve for their  unemployed, and a major source of revenue in their economy, from the  money illegal workers here send home.

Under present  conditions, the Mexicans just don't have enough incentive to give us  the help we need at the border. Mexico needs to do more to stem the  flow. But if we create a reasonable guest worker program and provide a  path to legalization for illegal immigrants already here -- as I will  discuss in a moment -- there is every reason to expect Mexico to do its  part to create more jobs in Mexico and to help us with border security.

The Mexicans, after all, also suffer great harm from the  lawlessness at the border, from drug smuggling and the simple misery of  people trying again and again to get into the United States illegally.  But don't expect the Mexican government to do anything if we're going  to talk about building a Berlin-style wall and deporting millions of  Latinos.

Melissa, I'm a little unclear why you think he lost the crowd.  Is it something he said or is it the people in Connecticut aren't interested in the issue?  Certainly the people there don't live with the overwhelming complexity of the problem which people in California deal with on an everyday basis.

Too bad he couldn't do so when DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE Ned Lamont asked for his help against ex-Democrat Joe Lieberman!

Here is what we need to say about illegal immigration...

nothing

It is not our issue.  It is a republican issue.  period.

What's terribly disturbing and disappointing is that the best part of the bill, the so called "amnesty" portion, is the most reviled by the public... while the most despicable pportions, h1b visas and temp workers, seem to have no controversy.  

3his is president bush's bill... Mitch McConnel stated yesterday that it is all but dead.  If they want to resurrect it, they should be the ones to do so, not we.

Independents, especially, hate this bill with a passion...  let it die.

Thanks,

Mike

The UCC crowd would not be inclined to enthusiastically receive such remarks on immigration. But Obama is speaking to the country in a speech like that. So good for him! Democrats are also concerned about illegal immigration, and Republicans and, yes, we do need to be a nation of laws where we have a policy that the public supports and the government enforces. We have neither now. I admire him for saying something that immediate audience wouldn't want to hear. And it's smart politics.

Sorry, folks, but I have no idea what world most of you are living in...

In my world here in the midwest, it's not about fears, it's about realities.  It's about losing your job and seeing it taken by someone being paid a whole lot less.  It's about losing your house, then your health insurance, and not knowing where your kids' next meal is coming from.

I'm so goddam happy for you that none of you have to deal with "fears" much less realities like the rest of us in the actual world out there have to deal with.

Are you folks so truly divorced from reality that you genuinely have no idea that there are real live human beings out there who are getting royally screwed by both the cheap labor republicans and the cheap labor democrats?  Is that how you can blithely chat about our "fears" and "concerns" without the slightest notion that some folks are actually living those fears?

Some of us know what it feels like to be unemployed for five years out of the last seven.  Some of us know what it feels like to pick up a five year old's toys from the lawn after her grandmother (her granddaughter's sole means of support) lost her job and got evicted.  Some of us are realizing that we former middle class workers have much more in common with working class workers of any party or no party than we have with self-styled "liberals" to whom "liberal" means promoting the Neo-conservative/Neo-liberal Bush cheap labor enrich the already rich by screwing everybody who has to work for a living agenda.

If you are so damn financially secure that you can idly chatter about the "contribution" illegal immigrants are making to the economy, then no wonder you have no idea just what "contribution" they are making to the security of millions of families living on the edge of disaster right now.

No wonder Rush and Billo and company get such adulation when they talk about the "Liberal elite".  The folks right here show how right they are.  You are acting like you never saw a real live working-class American.  Otherwise you wouldn't dismiss their "concerns" with such light, airy, abstract, third-person language.

Yes, Obama is right.  We've become a nation of laws for the few.  I have a big issue with people who think they are above the law.

About immigration.  We could continue to look the other way and in many ways it would be easier.  In fact, I don't mind illegal immigrants.  They cause me no problems.  But, we are in an age when our leaders, the very people who should be examples to all, instead are not.  In fact, there's corruption for many.  The bigger picture is how this has affected our values.  We don't value those who live an honest life.  We value those who can "get away with it".  Who don't we value?  Those who are stupid enought to get caught.  We see it everyday.  We've seen it with Kobe Bryant, Paris Hilton, Morton Downey,Jr., Tom Delay, and on and on.

Government has to live by its laws.  The only way for us to feel safe in this country, is if our government lives by and enforces those laws equally.

We need to be able to keep track of who's in our country but we don't need to round them up in jail and crucify them as the right wing would like us to do.  But we have to have some kinds of laws governing this problem.

When does one break the law?  In the case of civil disobedience when the law is morally wrong and goes against humanity like discrimination or religious persecution.

But immigration is a problem but not for the reasons cited by the rightwing.  Every country in the world has immigration laws.  Obama is simply asking that, if you break the law there are consequences and the consequences should be proportionate to the crime.  Making illegal immigrants pay a fine and then get in line for citizenship is not harsh.  

When it comes down to amnesty vs. lock-em up or deport them, I'll take amnesty.  However there are other alternatives and I think Obama's is reasonable and relatively painless.  Also, I think they should be issued visiting worker cards in the meantime.

would be a right wing thing, providing the country has realistic yet legitimate laws.

My impression (from looking around my own neighborhood and talking to people in the trades) is that illegal immigration is a class issue.

For middle and upper middle class people, they are happy to have illegal immigrants come in and do work on their house on the cheap.

For lower middle class and working class people in the trades, they see their livelihoods being undermined by cowboy outfits that come in with illegal immigrants, uninsured workers, etc.

I agree absolutely that one of the issues here is the employers skate on hiring illegal immigrants.  And when you consider that the main thing the new legislation accomplishes is to make it easier for employers to bring in more illegals (especially new H1Bs in the extremely ageist IT industry), you remember who is really running this country.

The Reagan Democrats will not "come home" if the Democratic Party does not deal honestly and justly with this issue.  I'm not holding my breath.

Obama lost me on the "pay fines" line -- where exactly are undocumented workers who are working for the lowest wages possible supposed to get the $5000 to pay the fine (not to mention back taxes.)

The immigration bill as currently structured is a gift to business -- it creates a constantly rotating pool of millions of guest workers who can only be here for two years at a time, then leave for a year..... and when they come back, they wind up having to start over again because the jobs they held before they left were filled by other "guest workers" who are only halfway through their own "two year" guest worker Visa.

Even if these workers could save a little money during their two year period here, those savings will likely disappear during the year they have to go back home.  

The whole thing is a scam, pure and simple.  

The best ways for employers to bust unions and reduce their wage costs:

* Bring in cheap labor from elsewhere.

* Pit workers against each other. Preferably use people from a different ethnic, race, language, or gender group and fan the flames of racism, nativism, sexism, etc. so workers will tear each other apart.

* Employ people who are illegal in some way so that the threat of arrest can be used to keep them in line.

Look at the current immigration situation and the Immigration Bill. Both the current situation and the Bill pit workers against each other, fan the flames of racism, etc. This is all great for employers, but bad for people.

This has been the strategy of employers for 150 years in this country. Racism and nativism have been used to bust unions and trash people of all kinds: Irish, Italian, Jewish, Slavak, Slovenian, Russian, African. The result has been oppression and crime gangs (Mafia, etc.).

A good immigration bill will make everyone in this country legal and force employers to pay high enough wages so that legal people will take the jobs and can live a decent life on the wages they get. A good immigration bill will address poverty in Mexico and Latin America and demand that Mexican/Latin American employers start paying a living wage so that Mexican/Latin American workers aren't drawn to higher (but still lousy) jobs in the US.

Blaming poor Mexican workers is not the solution. They didn't create this mess -- they are just responding to it. NAFTA and other "free trade" bills have created this mess and we need to respond to that, not blame poor people.

Do you not think that border security is a national security issue?  Is border security not obviously related to illegal immigration?  I don't understand why you think it would be either smart politics or good policy to pretend that half of this issue doesn't even exist, or isn't important enough to address.  Who are we kidding?

Immigration?....Yes..after all THAT is what we must focus ob...Cheney not part of the Administrative Branch/no problem...Bush taking the same position on over site..no problem...
Stacking the deck on voter registration/electronic voting?
Iraq...everyone knows it is wrong..send more troops..no problem..
Katrina?...(was she a finalist on American Idol?)
....appointing say 2-3 Supreme Court Judges..nothing to talk about...
Poverty?...don't want to get Edwardcised..
....Health care?...

Knowing that gay marriage and controlling a woman]s uterus is not the burning issue...

Immigration...Immagration...Immigration. ..

...don't watch me trying to put a rabbit in the hat...watch my busty assistant holding the sign

............Immagration................. .......  

The point that EVERYBODY is missing, is that for many people around the world, there IS NO avenue for legally immigrating to the US, at least within the lifetime of the person themself.

The bulk of undocumented immigrants in this country are taking jobs that are semi- or unskilled labor jobs.  The H-1B visa that covers this type work-related immigration is only for seasonal or temporary work, and does not permit the families of the workers in, and does not give the workers any avenue for permanent residency or citizenship.

Family-related immigration for people who did manage to get into this country legally is mostly a joke.  The waiting list for people of some countries (phillipines, ex) is 5+ years for a son or daughter (over 18), 10+ years for a brother or sister.

Spousal visas (husband or wife) is taking 1+ years just for the temporary K3 (20 months in the case of my Chinese-born wife) and 2+ years for their residency "green card" (39 months for my wife).

Fees for immigration and travel to the US have become surreal.  Just for the in-person interview (now required for EVERYBOBDY wishing to travel to the US, even for a vacation trip) the fee is a non-refundable USD $100.00, with no assurance that the visa will be issued.  Add in expenses for traveling to the consulate or embassy, and the cost of obtaining a US visa can be equivalent to several months pay for the person in their native country.  

If these fees aren't already bad enough, the USCIS and State Department has a proposal out to double all existing fees by 2009.

If we want to fix "Illegal Immigration," we need to start by making it possible for people to actually immigrate legally.