Hillary's race to lose

I don't have a dog in the race, and voted "other" in the MyDD poll. But I gotta tell you, this race is Hillary Clinton's to lose at this point. I wish to be wrong, and see Obama or Edwards get the nomination, but I honestly don't see it happening from this vantage point, and it's very frustrating. The Edwards candidacy was a longshot to begin with, and that he is still in it points toward how sound a strategy (combined with the luck of having Fiengold & Warner drop out), that he laid out; the frustration is more directed at Obama because he has the opportunity to lay claim with what's grown in the netroots this decade and hasn't grasped it at all, and it shows.

It's not about the dumping of Obama by the former contributor to Barack Obama, Steven Spielberg; or the very huge endorsement by Nevada State Sen. Dina Titus of Clinton; or even her latest surge in the polls.

No, it's the fake self-proclaimed "movement" that exhausts me of Obama. I say fake, not because "movement for change" and "building a movement" are such vacuous slogans, but because the continual touting of having such a movement in the Obama campaign email slog is a sure-as-heck signal that there really isn' a substantive movement behind the numbers.

In Obama latest, he sent me an email titled, "What a movement looks like?" His campaign probably didn't notice the slip, but it's an obvious truth--that adding that "?" in the title. Maybe, he thinks, he's in one... maybe not... who can tell?  He wouldn't have a clue, I'm beginning to think-- that the campaign really doesn't know what a movement is made up of and are fumbling in the dark amidst their media-created momentum (which is getting primed to turn on its creation). And who's got Obama's back when the media does turns on its creation? The netroots doesn't; he's never aligned with the existing movement that began with Dean in '02, swelled for Wesley Clark in '03, led Dean to the DNC Chair and propelled the Hackett and Lamont candidacies, leading to the surge of activists voting for Democrats in '06.

I was never under the illusion that Mark Warner would be a 'movement' candidate, but as a progressive and partisan Democrat he would engage this movement and work to win alongside us. And instead of the potential of a candidacy with Hillary that would not help red-state Democrats (to put it nicely), with Warner, we would have a map-changer that could win 40 states. I liked Obama's candidacy for a couple of months after Warner dropped out. I was encouraged by his message, even doing a very favorable post about it that got the Edwards partisans up in arms. Sure, Obama can't win 40 states, but he is not going to be a liability either, so why not.

At the time, I said that I would do a follow-up to the 'message' post-- to talk about the 'movement' that seemed to swelling around Obama. I mentioned it, started writing it, but that post was never done, because I never found anything real about Obama's movement. I looked into Obama's candidacy, very interested, then began to be skeptical, and now completely dismiss the notion that there's a movement behind Obama. It's looks like a better-than-ordinary campaign for a candidate that's personally compelling, and not much more. It is not a movement, but a candidate. It's about Obama, and nothing more. He's got numbers in the same way that Coke or Pepsi have consumers; supporters in the same way that Bono and the Dixie Chicks have fans. But this is partisan politics, and Obama will not survive the rightwing machine's onslaught without a strategy that includes internet partisanship.

And then there's just the part of me that sees right through parts of the game going on here. Since January 30th, I've gotten 17 emails from Barack Obama or David Plouffe hyping it up with the word "movement" in one or another part of each of those emails. Yea, David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, fresh off of directing Gephardt's compelling '04 movement, a principle in the media firm of David Axelrod-- the one responsible for storing up as much Obama cash as possible for as many ad buys and expenditures done through his and Axelrod's media firm. Plouffe is probably a good team player that signs off on being the obligatory signature for the email, but Movement Organizer, heh. Enjoy the 2nd quarter push for cash, it's the only part of the Obama movement that's real.

Maybe I'm completely on the outside here, and Barack Obama, with Plouffe and thousands of others, are really creating an independent feel-good movement. One that has nothing to do with the fighting partisan netroots; so there's no way I would grasp it, much less feel a part of it, and I'll be sideswiped in surprise at Obama's victories. Maybe, but I doubt it. Obama's running a well-funded, traditional presidential campaign that's safely pointed toward finishing a strong second based on his personal appeal. I can see Obama getting a lot of points in the game, but never the lead.

Edwards could still win the nomination, but it looks like a real longshot now, and the fading in the polls nationally is not a good omen. He needed to run a perfect campaign, with no self-induced mistakes, and it's not been that way at all. The haircut, hedgefund, and house as a trifecta of rightwing ammo has hurt his credibility on the signature issue of poverty. I'm not buying into the faux meme that is aimed at Edwards, campaigns are not fair, and those decisions were mistakes that didn't need to happen, especially just when it seemed his campaign was gaining momentum. There's still hope for Edwards if he pulls out a hat trick in the first three states, but that is one hell of a task. I give Edwards credit, because he does understand the terrain for '08 much better than Obama.

It's ludicrous that some point toward the outreach and early partnership that Edwards has done with the blogging community and the netroots in the same manner that a candidate reaches out to an issue base group, and and argue from there that Obama doesn't kowtow to such groups. First of all, that's bs, he does plenty of pandering and is very ordinary in that regard; but more fundamentally, this is the base of the Democratic party's rapid response team. The issue is combating the rightwing machine in unison with Democratic candidates, but you can't partner with a candidate that not inclined to join the partisan progressive movement. In all those emails, Obama has never once even associated with the word Democrat or Democratic, not mentioning either word even once. Edwards and Clinton do. Whose nomination is Obama running for?

There is an Obama that could be the partisan leader that builds with the netroots-blogger movement, but it's not his current campaign; and there is an Edwards campaign that's struggling to remain close to the pole; but here we are, seven months out, and only the potential of Al Gore jumping into the race seems standing in the way of Clinton getting the nomination. Otherwise, get prepared to accept Hillary.



Display:


Uh-Oh (3.00 / 7)

Countdown to Obama fan meltdown, in 3... 2... 1...

Good post, I voted the same way and feel the same way about the current crop of candidates. I wish Dodd could catch fire, but what I wish for more is Gore.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:02:42 AM EST

You do? (3.00 / 1)

So, help us catch fire ...

I know you well enough to know you are a fantastic organizer with a skill-set no one on our internet team has.  We can certainly provide you the keys to get involved in a meaningful way.

I believe you know the other Tim on our team (ye of Philly) -- we should talk.

Tim


by Tim Tagaris on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You do? (none / 0)

Word. See you at Take Back America? I'll be in the capital from Monday-Wednesday.

And wear that Phillies hat with pride- we're coming for the Mets!


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:27:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You do? (none / 0)

I'll be there.  We'll talk next week.

And it's not a Phillies hat.  It's a "Pinch Penny Pub" hat -- a bar I worked during college that just jacked the "P" and added a small "3" above it and to the right.  

I am, sadly, an irrational Cubs fan.

Tim


by Tim Tagaris on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Boooooooo! (none / 0)

Coincidentally, I am in the process of incorporating a non-profit called "P3" and was going to jack the Phillies P as well. Hmmm...


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You do? (none / 0)

Cubs fan?

That makes me want to work for Dodd even more.

Not that there are any opportunities here in the heartland for Dodd work.

phat


by phatass on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 01:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Louis Armstrong's version is the best (none / 0)

Grab your coat and get your hat
Leave your worries on the doorstep
Life can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street

Can't you hear the pitter pat
And that happy tune is your step
Life can be complete
On the sunny side of the street

I used to walk in the shade with my blues on parade
But I'm not afraid...this rover? crossed over

If I never had a cent
I'd be rich as Rockefeller
Gold dust at my feet
On the sunny side of the street  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Louis Armstrong's version is the best (none / 0)

I heard Luis Armstrong has come out in support of Hillary Clinton.    :-)


by georgep on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: alex are you really going to vote? (none / 0)

i believe that alex is in love with hillary she  only have the women in her rallies "king obama"have men,women,old and young at his rallies and alex if she is going to win then why is she not winning in Iowa. Also alex if she is the winner then why do obama double her in donors he has 100,000 and she has 50,000 how could she be winning in the polls. alex is not looking at the facts alex and the media don't want to see obama get any futher she will not get the backing of white male voters nor black male i hope alex and others who believe like him will see this and respond to this i am  willing to debate this when you are ready "obama will win and the world knows it"      


by edward on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 08:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (3.00 / 3)

I am almost afraid to say this here, but I like Sen. Clinton. While I will vote for Bill Richardson in the primary, I would be perfectly happy with a Hillary presidency. While I naturally am not crazy about all of her stances (then again, I'm not 100% in love with the stances of any of the candidates), I think that overall she is the second best (after Richardson) qualified person for the job. Not only is she incredibly smart (yeah, yeah, so are the rest of them), but she has more significant experience in matters of foreign and domestic policy than the rest of the top tier candidates. I like her stances on the issues most important to me personally (healthcare, civil rights, scientific research), and I honestly think that after eight years of loose cannon machismo, a woman's perspective could be very valuable. Hillary has a certain image that goes along with her, but I think that a lot of that is a right wing frame into which I refuse to buy. Her stance on Iraq is not the best, I will agree, but I believe that she will, if elected president, ameliorate her stance. I like Barack Obama, but he seems too green to me to lead the free world. I know this is a completely arbitrary criterion, but his political opportunism irritates me. I do not like John Edwards particularly, as I think his charm is somewhat manufactured. But that's just my opinion, and I respect the right of people to like and dislike whom they please; I only wish that people like me who like Sen. Clinton were not made to feel so pilloried for our stance.


by pennquaker08 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:09:08 AM EST

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

I also would like to ask: why can we not have an atheist/agnostic president? I know that in reality we are an incredibly religious nation, but even so, why can there not be a top tier candidate who does not make a huge show of his or her faith? Hillary's sob story about how faith helped her get through the Monica crisis and Obama's irritating tendency to drop the evangelical catch phrase "prayed on it" (rather than "thought about it") seem to me little more than deliberate pandering. These religious appeals, whether or not they are genuine, seem largely disingenuous to me. I would offer my primary vote to any candidate who publicly refused to mention private religious beliefs.


by pennquaker08 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:15:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Yeah, I've made that argument myself from time to time--a Democratic "Great Communicator."

But, going back to the initial post, Reagan really was leading a movement.

I don't see that from Obama yet.


by Bush Bites on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Because this is America not France.

Sometimes we all need to take a peak outside of the netroots bubble... the netroots are not America. America is a country made up of 90% religious people.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

This I understand. But if even I, a person who is not very religious, can see through the political utility of making an ostentatious show of my piety, then an actual person of faith would spot them a mile away and may even shunt their vote elsewhere. Republicans are going to win the evangelical vote no matter what. The mainstream Christians, Jews, etc. that are left seem sane enough to understand the separation of church and state.


by pennquaker08 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:27:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Of course Republicans will always win the overall evangelical vote, but every individual you persuade to switch counts the same.

Howard Dean appeared on the 700 Club for a reason.  The concept behind asking for every vote is not much different than the concept behind the 50-state strategy.

The problem is, in a political environment where Democrats are routinely accused of being an atheistic secular godless party that hates people of faith, the normal approach of keeping your faith a private matter isn't viable.  You have to be a little bit open about it simply as pushback against all the unfair accusations.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:36:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

The problem is that many people are prejudiced against atheists, and the Republican party knows it, that's why they encourage those accusations you mention.  Democrats dance to the Republican tune every time they rush to reassure people that yes, they do share in the general supernaturalism, rather than fighting for the social standing of atheists and agnostics.  That is a more fruitful strategy, because when prejudice against atheists lessens, it won't matter so much if the Democratic party is accused of being godless.


by One Hand Clapping on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why can we not have an atheist/agnostic presid (none / 0)

We have had and will have. It's just that one has to pretend to be Christian to get elected. I'm atheist, but I would sure as heck start being seem in church if I decided to run for president.


by Cleveland John on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why no atheist/agnostic president? (3.00 / 1)

When Americans decide they prefer reality, science and rational thought over mythology, fairy tales, dogma, illusion and superstition, then we'll get a non-believer president.

Americans like "Easy" -- and it's easier to believe that a Magical Omnipotent Hovering Invisible Fairy has a plan for everything and pulls all the strings.

Looking at the dumbing down of this country, I'm not holding my breath that the switch to rationality will happen any time soon.


by Oregonian on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary (3.00 / 3)

The problem with Hillary - for me - has not so much to do with her policies. The problem is: what will she do to the Democratic Party? Can we survive with a public face that is absolutely hated by 48% of the population, before she has even taken office? Can we survive with a public face that alienates the people that Democrats desperately need to win back from Republicans, i.e. white working class voters? Can we survive with a public face that energizes the other side and sets us back to the years before Bush sank the Republicans?

With Hillary:

  • dozens of downticket races will be lost
  • the Democratic brand will be ripped to pieces
  • the white working class will go back to Republicans
  • the conservative movement will rise from the ashes
  • eveything that happened under W will be forgotten

And this is not even mentioning her antipopulist agenda or the dynasty thing.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

Your grim predictions are, I think, largely speculation. How can you be sure that, if elected, Hillary wouldn't actually do the country proud as president? People can change their minds, and in fact do all the time. For example, would you have thought back in 1997 that gay civil unions would be legal in four states and full marriage equality in one? And this is only the beginning of the long road toward gay civil rights.


by pennquaker08 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

I hope that you are right, I really do. But I don't believe it... the prospect of a Hillary candidacy is enough to make me sleepless.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

It's not the part after Clinton is elected that has people as worried, it's Clinton's down ticket effect during the election that has people, like me, worried.  

My stepmother for instance, who's a Republican in all but name, hates the GOP field but she hates Hillary Clinton even more.  She was a die-hard McCain fan for a while but that love affair faded. Her reasons for hating Hillary are wholly irrational, but you can't talk her out of it.  She has, however, made comments about supporting Obama, and I think she'd support most of the other Democrats in the field too.

What I don't know is who are these people supporting Clinton.  In every informal raising of hands in a gathering of Democrats that I've been to Hillary Clinton comes in third behind Obama and Edwards (who flip 1st and 2nd).  


by LionelEHutz on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (3.00 / 3)

She has really come across as likeable, I think, in the last debates.  I'll never forget her interview with David Letterman's mom many years ago. I think a lot of her negatives are driven by a narrative without people seeing a lot of her. If she can sell herself as a person as well as a politician, she'll be the next president.

I agree 100% with the diary. Edwards' mistakes, and Obama's lost opportunities are regrettably fatal.


by magster on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:06:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (none / 0)

I have watched the two debates anxtiously to see if my perception of Hillary is wrong. I have really hoped that it would be. But no. She came across as very knowledgable but also not very likeable to say the least. I am glad to hear that not everyone feels this way about her.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (3.00 / 1)

personally, I'd never smear a Democrat with the Reagan tag. Reagan was officially the most corrupt president in American history with more of his staffers convicted on various corruption charges than any president in history including Richard Nixon. i don't like Obama much, but he certainly deserves better than that.


by basement angel on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 08:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (none / 0)

I don't know if Hillary's negatives will go down.  I think the populus will always be 50/50 with her.  I already wrote about Obama, if he does not turn it around by late summer/early fall, then this is all Hillary's.  I state this because he is a huge draw, people sincerely do like him, if he turns it around many will come back, a savvy fundraiser.  All campaigns need shake ups, Hillary did it for Iowa, Edwards with Trippi, now Obama need to replace his PR people and Communication people.  If he can do these things, hone the message, control HIS media, perform at top strength in the debates, he can be a real contender.  All the things he is trying to do with grassroots, he can still do, but he needs to tighten his ship.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (none / 0)

i seriously doubt that hillary's negatives will go down significantly -- but that's really not the point.  the point is that the negative intensity out there is monumental.  a solid core of republicans and independents don't simply dislike hillary, they loathe her with a passion that's irrational.  they tired of the clinton "psychodrama" a long time ago; now they just want to beat one...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:11:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary negatives will go down (none / 0)

But the psychodrama is created by the people who hate her. Hillary Clinton alone is just a person. If they insist on clutching on to the past and reinventing the 90s drama, then that's their problem: not ours. If Hillary is the nominee and she runs on principles with which some of those Independents and Republicans agree, then they will either have to sell out to another candidate with whom they don't agree or reconsider the image they've created of her.

I'm pretty confident she can impress independents. She's too damn intelligent not to.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hillary loses the i-4 corridor to sam brownback... (none / 0)

sam brownback!  granted, hillary may be writing off florida anyway (like kerry did), but it's hard for me to see why anyone would think she'll win independents.  she's polling awful in pennsylvania, too.  this isn't like new york, where she held a town hall in every friggin' corner of the state...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary loses the i-4 corridor to sam brownbac (none / 0)

It's very easy to see why Hillary would win independents: they're all about the issues. And her stances are an excellent blend of progressivism and pragmatism. I don't really give a hoot how she's polling in Pennsylvania. When the general election comes around and if Hillary is the Democratic nominee, people will have to get off of their undecided butts and think about in which direction they want their country to go.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 12:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary loses the i-4 corridor to sam brownbac (none / 0)

you have a very idealistic notion of independents.  independents are as personality-driven as partisan voters.  in fact, independents tend to be the laziest voters out there.  even if they are interested in issues, they rarely take the time to examine and compare candidates and their stands on issues.  i'm not sure if your statement is naive or just a convenient oversight, but i'd think it will be remarkably easy for republicans to separate independents from hillary (not that we have any indication that hillary wants independents to vote anyway).

i find it hard to believe that you want to argue her case on the issues.  since hillary has been in the senate, she's had one opportunity to show her moral character and she came up wanting.  she was bush's most ardent supporter on iraq!  if the base couldn't get enthused about john kerry because of his flip-flops on the war until late october, how could you expect us to get excited about hillary with all her extra baggage?  and after "hillary-care," it's difficult to believe that even most democrats want her in charge.  she lends herself easily to the caricaturization that democrats want big government programs and huge tax increases to pay for them.

the fact that you don't care about the electoral college, or that hillary would inevitably lose, and quick to write off florida and pennsylvania, tells me something.  it's not about taking back the white house, it's all about hillary...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 08:33:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary loses the i-4 corridor to sam brownbac (none / 0)

ou have a very idealistic notion of independents.  independents are as personality-driven as partisan voters.  in fact, independents tend to be the laziest voters out there.  even if they are interested in issues, they rarely take the time to examine and compare candidates and their stands on issues.

I'm not sure where you got your personality assessment of independents, but I'm almost completely certain you have no idea what you're talking about. On what basis could you possibly ascertain that independent voters are lazy? There's a reason why independent voters are becoming more and more important during national elections and it's because the Democratic and Republican parties are losing voters on the issues. They're so fraught with paranoia about upsetting their base that they can't push past their own bread and butter issues. That's lead to the rise of people who consider themselves not interested in either of the parties. But it's precisely because of the issues that many independents are independent.

As for your tirade against Hillary, I find your rhetoric about as flat as 10 day old opened can of coke. Her "one opportunity to show moral character" in your words was her belief in the intelligence she was provided by the President. She's already said that if she knew then what she knows now, she wouldn't have voted. I find it difficult to parse that you would equate her with Bush's most ardent supporter just because she, as someone who's been in the White House, wanted to not play politics on what seemed at the time to be a question of national security. I don't know where morals come into it but if a Democrat supports a member of the opposing party in order to protect the United States, I think that's moral. If you're upset with how the war turned out, you have none other than George Bush to blame.

she lends herself easily to the caricaturization that democrats want big government programs and huge tax increases to pay for them.

Frankly, you're the one lending yourself to that caricature, because, if you actually were to observe her now as opposed to the image you have of her 15 years ago you'd see that she's fairly moderate in her proposals. I could spend half the day coming up with her entire platform and walk you baby step by baby step through why she's a very reasonable candidate who knows her issues, but I really don't care to now that you've shown your true colors. Go ahead and bash her for the image you have of her in mind and refuse to even examine. Fine with me. You could be just another Republican for all I care.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary loses the i-4 corridor to sam brownbac (none / 0)

my conclusions are based upon not only my years of voter contact and mobilization, but also an intense study of the electorate through post-election analysis, issues canvassing, controlling benchmark polls and running focus groups.

i'm sure you have reasons for your views, they just don't seem to be derived from contact with the electorate...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 09:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I rarely agree with you but (none / 0)

I completely agree with this. We have a unique opportunity to build on the progress of 2006 and Hillary, imo, can't do that.


by okamichan13 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

would be a decent President, all the candidates will, but she has to win it.  If it is Giuliani, it will be tough, but at least we will know it will not be a personal attack campaign.  If Thompson, Fred that is, I can't comment until I see him in action.  But being an "actor" will put him points above the rest.  He will know how to react, speak, body movement, in front of the camera.  Very important.  Romney, not impressed, he would be the easiest with his flip/flopping baggage.

Obama is the one to take Hillary out, if he does not make a move by late summer/early fall then he is done.  We understand the process of involving people in your campaign, but if you do not do the basic fundamentals of running a tight ship, then you do falter.  He needs new PR People/Communication Director.  The one total positive about him is his website, stellar.  One that every campaign "wished" they had.  And another, he has engaged people to the Democratic Party, which is good because we need as many to come to our side as possible.  So, it is for Hillary to loose, and maybe Obama got something up his sleeve, but he need to roll it out.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:11:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

I don't think Obama will attack Clinton in any major way. He has a bright future in the Democratic Party and possibly even a shot at VP.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

would be a decent President, all the candidates will, but she has to win it.  If it is Giuliani, it will be tough, but at least we will know it will not be a personal attack campaign.  If Thompson, Fred that is, I can't comment until I see him in action.  But being an "actor" will put him points above the rest.  He will know how to react, speak, body movement, in front of the camera.  Very important.  Romney, not impressed, he would be the easiest with his flip/flopping baggage.

Obama is the one to take Hillary out, if he does not make a move by late summer/early fall then he is done.  We understand the process of involving people in your campaign, but if you do not do the basic fundamentals of running a tight ship, then you do falter.  He needs new PR People/Communication Director.  The one total positive about him is his website, stellar.  One that every campaign "wished" they had.  And another, he has engaged people to the Democratic Party, which is good because we need as many to come to our side as possible.  So, it is for Hillary to loose, and maybe Obama got something up his sleeve, but he needs to roll it out.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:12:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm coming round to like Clinton too. From the opposite end, as Dodd is probably my favourite and Richardson is my least favourite, but she's running a competent campaign and whilst there are issues where I think she could improve (Iraq, Penn, healthcare) she's not running against the netroots, which is a good sign when you consider that she's almost certain not to get a majority of netroots votes and she looks to be the most prepared to go up against the Republican machine and win.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:28:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

It isn't her policies that I hate.  And I wouldn't mind a woman president.

What I can't stand is to have that family and all their dysfunction return to the White House and represent this country as if its normal behavior.  

Values that we teach our children were made a sham of by the Clintons: fidelity, loyalty, honesty, law-abiding, love, ambition.

And why should I believe that he won't stray again? Why should I admire her for sticking with him after so many affairs? Why should we put Chelsy through this all over again?

Sure we all have our dysfunctional families, but America's first family should be better than most.


by aiko on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dynasty (none / 0)

If Clinton gets the nod, and the Republican candidate is formidable, then this will come back to bite us in the ass.  We must be realistic here, a Bush/Clinton has been on the presidential ballot since 1980.  And Bush has totally FATIGUED us all, so do not think this will not be a strong reminder, it will.  Because the other side will be talking about real change, which you can not argue for the elitism aspect of it, and if they come across with a hard message, it will be a divide.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dynasty (none / 0)

and the Republican candidate is formidable

Luckily that is looking less likely by the day. The only two republicans that have the talent and credentials to endanger any of the Democratic candidates are the current governor of California who isn't allowed to run and the former governor of Florida who, because of his last name, has no chance in hell.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dynasty (none / 0)

At another time it might be right for Hillary.  But the Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton dynasty deal goes against the American grain.  Kevin Phillips talks about "Wealth and Dynasty".  We get the same players over and over instead of new blood.  It just strikes me as the wrong time for Hillary.  

The nation needs to somehow start healing after the nastiness and selfishness of the last 30 years. But more of the same isn't going to do it.  You are right.  People are fatigued.  Anything smacking of the failed policies of conservatism and the more benign Rubonomics, need to be put aside.  We need really bold change like single payer healthcare.  The American people are ready for huge change.  I can feel it out here.  A change in direction not just a change in how we treat each other.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Has there ever been a 1st family that wasn't dysfunctional in some way?

Reality isn't Ozzie and Harriet.  

I'll give the Clintons credit for one thing though, despite all the goings on in their household, their kid seems to have grown up just fine.  


by LionelEHutz on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Very much. I don't think it matters what the Clintons' marriage is like. They haven't let it harm the upbringing of their child and beyond that it's their own damn business.

You shouldn't elect your leaders to be moral paragons, you should elect the best person to lead. Give me an alcoholic, philandering misanthropist who will makes the lives of his people better any day over a teetotalling, faithful straitlaced churchgoer who will do harm to the people of his country.

Hell, Bush II shows you exactly why private conduct is no indicator of whether or not they're a good leader. Values aren't worth a damn. It's principles that are important.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 07:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

i love your last sentence.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 10:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

don't give up on him yet.  he's my first choice too.  make a contribution, whatever you can would be appreciated.  he's absolutely worth it.

https://secure.richardsonforpresident.co m/page/contribute?source=W1017


by CNYAlison on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:04:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

I agree, Hillary has the most experience of the frontrunners. And I think Obama's lack of adequate leadership in the senate really doesn't seem to have prepared to lead not just the common voters, but be able to dictate to other politicians of his party on how to achieve certain goals.

Having said that, what good is Hillary's foreign experience? She had plenty of exposure to foreign policies and political games in 2002 and still blundered spectacularly regarding the war. And despite her experience, she took longer than Edwards and others to realize (or, based on what you believe,  admit) her mistake. Can you trust someone who has failed in one of the biggest priorities of this decade? And she doesn't seem to want to break away from the advisers and the DLC types. So there is no eveidence of an independent streak in crucial issues.


by Pravin on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is why I am giving NO ONE a dime. (none / 0)

Hillary does not need, nor will she ever need, my donation. I don't care who she ends up running against, the fact is she has plenty of wealthy people who can take care of her. She will not need, nor will she ever appreciate, a dime I donate. Plus under her we'll be in Iraq for 8 more years, just so she can prove to the world that girls can shoot guns too.

Obama is a nice enough guy, but I have to wonder if he peaked the day he announced. I'd donate if there was a chance he could Stop Hillary (who will destroy the party and the country beyond the dreams of a Karl Rove) but I still get the impression people support him Because They Think They're Supposed To. Please, Obama folks, prove me wrong.

As for Edwards, well his lovely Johnny One Note "Consultant", Mudcat Whatshisname, made it clear that I, as a person who lives in a city, is not worthy of being in the Democratic party. So f*ck Edwards and his bullshit. He was a joke candidate the first time anyway, why does anyone take seriously what haircut 400 has to say? He can stick it up his hedge fund and his Mudcat.

As for the rest, well, they're a nice enough bunch, but Mike Gravel? Dennis The Menace? WTF?

Whatever. Bush has lowered the bar so low, even a fool like Hillary, who has no principles and no integrity, can actually be president. Maybe its time to move to Australia.


by Schadelmann on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 3)

kissing the asses of the netroots gate keepers, which shows in some of their coverage of his campaign (I'm not referring to Jerome's diary). I think that this post brings up a valid point: perhaps Obama is weaker for not putting out press releases containing the right buzz words for the base. Perhaps he should stop being so damn pragmatic and result orientated and instead offer people pie in the sky-proposals.

For me personally, his independence makes him even more appealing. This independence is obvious from his entire life of activism. He is not a phony who turns 180 degrees when it suits his interests, or a poll driven insider who tries to be folksy and hide her cold and calculated persona.

His independence might cost him the nomination in 2008. In the long run, I would be very surprised if Obama doesn't become POTUS.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:09:12 AM EST

Re: Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 6)

dude, you're whistling past the graveyard. It's not a matter of pandering, it's a matter of politics.
Obama is claiming to be a transformational candidate and yet he's running a top-down media campaign that sees grassroots supporters as simply a source of cash.
by Texas Nate on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:14:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 0)

So how do you explain the unprecedent turnout at all his events? Are these people bought and paid for by the top down campaign?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

not at all. those people and their passion and energy show the huge potential that the obama campaign is squandering.
from my investigations of some of his larger events they are self-organized by the people attending -- the austin one in february that drew 20,000 definitely was -- and the Obama campaign is doing little or nothing to capture that energy and build a movement.
Instead of getting their supporters more and more deeply involved in the campaign, they just grab their cash and move on down the road.
by Texas Nate on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:36:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

I was at the Atlanta rally in early April, with over 20K in attendence. To their credit, the Obama campaign did do a few internet-savvy things:
  1. The crowd was allowed into two separate areas: One closer to the stage, and another behind that one, separated by metal barricades and a walkway. If you signed up online (and were thus on My.BarackObama.com), you got to stand in the section closer to the stage. So people already signed up online got the better experience (being closer to the Man).
  2. The person warming up the crowd kept asking everyone to sign up to my.barackobama.com every time she spoke. She probably repeated herself 10 times in 90 minute timespan, but I'm sure it got them more signups.
So basically they're doing a good job of getting people into their activism network (they do have very impressive numbers). The question then is what they do afterwards with those people to buidl the movement, and I think that falls more into the domain of Field rather than Netroots/Online Communications. I think the biggest innovation of the Dean campaign wasn't fundraising, but the use of Meetup to build a powerful national field program (which still exists today as DFA).
Leftmost Bit
by Luigi Montanez on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

although the fatal flaw of the Dean/Meetup strategy was the failure to integrate their Meetup volunteers with their Iowa field program.
Their NH program was much better integrated and if NH had happened before Iowa....
by Texas Nate on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:25:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's a myth... (none / 0)

iowa and new hampshire (i was in both) were organized differently.  the iowa operation was a complete failure, with the staff (not only volunteers) badly trained, many of whom had never experienced a caucus before.  only a handful of county directors walked their people through a mock caucus the weekend before.  (most of the presidentials i've worked on did this more than once.  i worked one campaign where mock caucuses were done routinely, monthly starting in november.)

new hampshire was better organized.  they benefited from being next door to vermont.  however, they trained their people on this "what's your story" thing, and it was a failure in winning large numbers of voters.  plus, their paid phone canvass (a buck a supporter) gave so many false positives that they had an inflated view of their support.  in the end, dean failed in asking voters for their vote and the organization was horribly flawed.  it was no way to run a presidential campaign...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 2)

I think these people think they're part of a movement and the Obama campaign may think they're part of a movement, but if that's the case then the methods they employ to grow that movement have stagnated. He's not gaining support anymore. If I really wanted to direct a movement, first of all I'd give a purpose other than electing one person. I think as of now it's way to personality driven (which is exacerbated by the fact that Obama apparently does not mention the word Democrat in his emails). Second, I'd work like hell to get some small (or large) group of supporters to hit the streets every weekend or week, not just the one-time shot like they did last weekend. If he wants a grassroots movement, then he's got to ask a lot of the grassroots.

I'd give the same advice to the Edwards folks too in terms of hitting the streets.


by adamterando on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 1)

I'm obviously not going to wade any further into this discussion, but I think you're a bit off the mark here.  If there are problems with what they're doing online, I don't think ATM-only syndrome is it.

We're still supposed to talk, Nate.  Ring me up when you get a chance.

Tim


by Tim Tagaris on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

will do Tim. have been having technical and illness issues.


by Texas Nate on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

Take your time.  I'll be in D.C. next week, so that should work as well.

Feel better,

Tim


by Tim Tagaris on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

better bring texas nate some chicken soup too.


www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

it's not that it's ATM only, it's that there's no bubble up factor, they're using all the tactics of 2004 but without the enagement at the top levels that Dean had.

I dunno, maybe I'm just a crusty old hippy ranting about the good old days of 2003 and missing what's happening in front of my eyes.


by Texas Nate on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not true... (none / 0)

There are numerous grassroots leaders around the country who are in direct and constructive contact with the Obama campaign.

Just because the Obama blog isn't posting movie poster parodies does not mean they're engaged with their supporters.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Media campaign? (3.00 / 3)

How is Obama running a "top-down media campaign" if he doesn't even have ads up and running? He may spend all of his money that way - he may not. My understanding is the Obama campaign had a huge canvassing event on June 9th. Is he on the air with his big media campaign or is that just your opinion of his strategy?


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (3.00 / 1)

You don't know what you are talking about.

I get more emails and invitations from Baltimore-based Obama supporters then from the HQ.  There are a ton of local house parties, baseball games, canvassing, volunteer opportunites, parties, etc. right here in town.  And our state won't even effect the outcome.


by aiko on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (3.00 / 1)

Who was the last Democrat to become President after making a serious run for the office without a stop at Vice President?  It's a long time ago, for sure (pre-Civil War).  The last person to do this (as a Democrat) was probably Andrew Jackson (lost 1824, elected in 1828 and 1832).

This notion that a good losing campaign opens things up for the future just doesn't work. Ask Jerry Brown, who came on like gangbusters in 1976 and then became the Harold Stassen of Democratic primaries.  Ask Ted Kennedy (1980).  Ask Gary Hart.  Ask Jesse Jackson.   Ask Paul Tsongas, or Bill Bradley.

So, if Obama falls short and is offered the VP slot?  Take it.


by David Kowalski on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Well there was William Jennings Brya....... oh wait.
:)
by adamterando on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Hmm, am I misunderstanding the question?  To the best of my knowledge, Clinton, Carter and Kennedy were not vice presidents prior to getting elected President.


by aldon on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

That was their first runs at the presidency.  He's talking about candidates who run, lose, don't get elected VP, and run again.  Biden, Gephardt, Edwards, etc.


by dbeard115 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

How about Nixon?


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Sure, but he's asking about Democrats.

I don't think it really matters.  There simply aren't that many data points.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

The question was made concerning Democratic candidates, but both Reagan and Nixon had unsuccessful presidential campaigns before finally being elected, and neither served as VP.

FDR ran for VP in 1920 and lost soundly to the Harding ticket.

Whatever.  I don't think it means anything.


Matt Flynn
by Flynnieous on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

You mean Nixon wasn't the 36th vice-president? Damn those martian imposters!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Nixon was a VP.  


by Rt hon McAdder esq KBE on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

D'oh!

Oh well.  Reagan wasn't.


Matt Flynn
by Flynnieous on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 08:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Clinton, Carter and Kennedy never made a serious run for President before their nomination year either.  For Democrats it's been one and out (or VP).  Interestingly, it is possible to have a second shot as a Republican:  Reagan (1968, 1976 a loser then bingo in 1980) and Nixon (lost 1960, won 1968 and 1972) proved that.

It simply has not worked that way for Democrats unless the individual served as VP (LBJ, Gore sort of). The one true run has been the ticket for Clinton, Carter, Kennedy, FDR, Wilson, Cleveland, Buchanan, Pierce, and Polk.  Truman inherited the job without a prior run for President and this is probably true for Van Buren (OK, he ran but as Jackson's heir).


by David Kowalski on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

Yeah but a lot of that could be pure coincidence too... Just the way the chips fell that particular year.  And pre modern primaries, a lot of the reason falls on who was nominated by the smokey backroom men.  I mean from the CIvil War until FDR, we had a LOT of trouble being able to win National Elections.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:16:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP? (none / 0)

A Black man or Women have never been a nominee...maybe we should stick to nominating white Guys?


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 12:10:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama clearly isn't (none / 0)

Obama shows independence??? Jeeez!  Neocons are guiding his campaign and he's bending over backwards to assist indu$tries and Republicans!

This is what independence looks like - taking on Big Oil, the Insurance and Pharmaceutical industries, supporting fair trade, picketing with union members, helping to place minimum wage on ballots, shoveling with Katrina victims, advocating for the working poor, etc.

Edwards has successfully battled the healthcare industries - which is why he can afford a $400 haircut.  He's also been through the Republican slime machine in 2004 - while Obama's wheelin and dealin is gaining more scrutiny.

There are rarely any Progressive voices on TV - so we knew it would take all of us working together WHILE the media slimed and ignored Progressive candidates and promoted those raising the most money - also deemed "presidential."
I really wish this community would consider working our asses off to elect a Progressive who appeals to farmers and city slickers, millionaires and the poor.

Thanks


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

In Obama's defense he's been quick at squashing attacks from republicans like McCain on Iraq.  It hasn't helped him in the polls tho, he's been flat for two months.  It might have hurt McCain tho.

A lot of us wish he'd be more aggressive against Hillary, but he's not.  Perhaps he doesn't want to lead this early, but he's got to make a move sometime.


by enarjay on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:10:50 AM EST

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

I think he's running for VP.


by adamterando on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary wouldn't choose obama (none / 0)

no way no how.


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary wouldn't choose obama (none / 0)

Why not? If he stays strong and his base develops an anti-Hillary attitude, it's the best way of securing her flanks in readiness for the general election.

He's probably not her best pick, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be up there.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary wouldn't choose obama (none / 0)

Plus that would secure a LOT of money for the GE.


by adamterando on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary wouldn't choose obama (none / 0)

Yeah, but she seems like a big CW kind of campaigner, and the CW on this is that you need a Conservative White Guy.  If Rendell doesn't want it as he claims, I'm thinking Bayh or Warner would be shortlisted.

That being said, I think there is a long way to go and either a Clinton screw up or a change of Obama strategy could completely alter the race.  And of course Gore getting in would be a game changer.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary wouldn't choose obama (3.00 / 2)

My candidate is neither Clinton or Obama, but I will support the notion that Clinton will not pick Obama as a VP candidate.   While it sounds like a dream ticket to Democrats (and they are good stories for the media because the Dem party has always stood up for equal rights), one has to consider two things.

1) If the Moderate Republicans and Indies who voted for Bush last time continue to be disenchanted, as indicated in many polls, (you can find them as there are links on this site to them), they will not pick both a woman and an African-American on the ticket.  We may think that's wrong and it sounds sexist and racist, but it's truth of the matter.   I hope that meme is wrong, but I believe it still exists.

2) Second reason, which is really the most important one, is that the election is going to be about Iraq.  No nominee will pick a VP to run with her (or him, because I still think Edwards will pull this out) that doesn't have military experience.  Granted, W's military service was questionable, but we couldn't prove it in 2000 or 2004.  Just ask Dan Rather.   Thus, with the three front runners, none of them has served in the military.  Only one has a spouse who was from a military family (Edwards).   No, I see Clinton picking someone like Leon Panetta.   My own choice would be Webb for John Edwards, but I'm pretty certain Webb prefers to be in the Senate.   I had hopes for Jack Reed, but he voted to give Bush more money, so that squashes him out.   But this argument holds even if Obama becomes the nominee as well.  He will need to pick someone with military experience as well and who knows the possibilities, such as Colin Powell.

All of that said, I think Edwards has the vision for this country, and he can lead it well.  But Jerome's right about one thing, Clinton has the cash to cover up any mistakes at the moment.  Iowa will still vote for Edwards, NH is likely to go Clinton with Edwards a strong second, and the other two up for grabs.  Clinton has bought her way into Nevada (by getting Harry Reid's son to be the Nevada director there), but if the unions break for Edwards, she will have a time on her hands.   SC may be brokered this time.


by benny06 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

Obama's support is somewhat soft.  Softer than either Clinton's and Edwards'.  He risks losing some of that soft support if he hits Clinton hard.  


by georgep on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not necessarily true... (none / 0)

According to Rasmussen (I think), Obama has the highest (and consistent) level of baseline support.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not necessarily true... (none / 0)

Here's a WaPo poll from June 3rd:

Do you support (NAMED CANDIDATE) strongly, or somewhat?

Hillary Clinton           53             47  
Barack Obama          43             56  
Al Gore                     60             40  

In February, Clinton's "strong" number was 56%, and Obama's was 60%. So Obama's support has really softened up, and Clinton's is getting a little softer.

Al Gore's support seems to be the strongest, however.


by Kal on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 11:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's race to lose (3.00 / 6)

First, for a frontrunner with universal name identification, I've been surprised for months that Hillary is only about at 1/3 in most polls.  That is below historic frontrunners like Mondale, Gore, Muskie, etc.  Everybody knows her but never a majority supports her, even among Democrats.

Second, I'm supporting Obama but I think some measure of objectivity is intact as I participate in my 9th Democratic primary process.  For the last few months I've been a little closer to the grassroots than Jerome or most other MyDD'ers and every day, without fail, I'm impressed with the Obama Campaign (Edwards too) and surprised of the astro-turf I see, mostly in the form of endorsements by politicians with thin followings, for Hillary.  It's the classic frontrunner situation -- a campaign that consists of risk-averse but well-compensated pros and politicians looking to climb the ladder vs. a challanger of a new generation with substantial under-the-radar appeal.  BTW - who won the MyDD straw poll the other day, Jerome?

Finally, Obama has something all the consultants, media & bloggers in the world cant spin away.  He was right from the start in opposing the war.  

Sure, it is Hillary's race to lose, of course. She is the frontrunner, but a weak one by the standards of most past frontrunners.


by howardpark on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:14:55 AM EST

Re: Hillary's race to lose (none / 0)

You are wrong.  The polling Clinton receives is quite large compared to previous frontrunners.   You simply CAN'T compare Gore's numbers, as he had to contend with only ONE challenger, Bill Bradley.   OF COURSE you would see numbers above 50% for one of the two.  It makes no sense, is downright silly, to compare that "performance" to an 8-man race, of which four candidates (Clinton, Obama, Gore, Edwards) pull in decent numbers.  

If you look up other contenders, you will see that what you believe to be the truth is actually not correct.  Mondale was not a runaway frontrunner, quite the opposite.  He struggled mightily against Gary Hart, and his poll numbers, as they were, never approached the level you claim here.   The same is true for Muskie or any of the Democrats running for the nomination, going all the way back to