Bob Bauer Open Thread

What do you think of this, which is making the rounds today?  Obama doesn't agree with the idea that progressives should want a Libby pardon, which is good.  As usual, I'm going to agree with Digby, while pointing out that Washington DC used to have too much lead in its drinking water system.  Were I an Obama supporter, I might hope that Bauer be kept away from anything sharp, heavy machinery, toys that look edible, and/or Obama himself.

Thoughts?  



Display:


Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 2)

A pardon is just what Bush's opponents should want.

A pardon brings the president into the heart of the case. It compels him to do what he has so far managed to avoid: accept in some way responsibility for the conduct of his Administration in communicating with the public about national security and in its treatment of dissent. If the pardon would be politically explosive, then this is what the administration's critics, hungering for accountability, have been waiting for. The case against this government on the larger charge of abuse of power is diminished, made even laughable, by resolving into a 30-month sentence for an obscure figure named Libby

It doesn't sound like he's going to bat for Libby as much as he is explaining that a pardon would be politically bad for the Administration. I don't really buy the fact that we should hope for one, because I do believe the guy committed a crime--but obviously this shouldn't be the end of the case.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:38:32 PM EST

Exactly (3.00 / 2)

This is a Democratic version of the media narrative that whatever happens it's good for Bush, even if it seems to be a disaster. The argument that a Libby pardon would be good politically for Democrats may or may not be right, but it's far different from arguing that Libby doesn't deserve jail time. And it's hardly something to get hysterical about one way or the other.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, it's not unrealistic to expect Bush will pardon the guy, so we should have a message prepared  when it happens.  But we shouldn't be happy about having the chance to use that message if it means letting  a crook get away.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Yep, very true. It's definitely not a good thing to see a guy involved in the cover-up get away, and the political implications of a pardon are hard to know. Getting everyone on message early is a good call


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 2)

This plays right into the argument many hard-core Democrats have with Obama that he is getting too chummy with Republicans.   This FREAKING JERK Bauer is giving cover to Bush and Cheney, a disaster for any of us who believe that Bush and Cheney should be held accountable for their misdeeds.    We simply CAN'T play nice with them all the time.   They are the "common enemy," not partners in government.  


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:39:14 PM EST

exactly (3.00 / 1)

This libby case is a way to rally democrats/independents, it has nothing to do with ideology.

Really a stupid move of Obama campaign.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exactly (3.00 / 1)

how closely does a guy's lawyer work with the campaign? i wonder if this got authorized by anyone else on the staff--it doesn't seem like its a part of any sort of coherent strategy (much like the Mudcat thing on Time)


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

gencoun (none / 0)

I don't know about a campaign's general counsel (although I doubt Bauer would have gotten the spot on HuffPo if he'd just been some random DC attorney, they's lots of those), but someone pointed out elsewhere that , the Nixon re-election campaign's chief counsel was G. Gordon Liddy.
As expected, Mitchell admitted sitting through three meetings, the first two as Attorney General, at which the bizarre and illegal political espionage plans of G. Gordon Liddy, then the Nixon re-election committee's chief counsel, were presented.

by darrelplant on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing to do with ideology (none / 0)

nothing to do with politics, partisan or otherwise.

This is a question of justice, equality before the law and national security. If Libby walks it effectively says that we have no laws that powerful Republican need take notice of.

I was truly sickened when Obama said he had not followed the case. How could a president Obama ever ask a CIA case officer to risk their life if he does not take this case seriously?

I cannot put into words the anger I feel. ALL our presidential wannabees have been thunderously silent on this, along with Reid, Pelosi, and Dean, and now this.

What do we have to do to get them to take this seriously????????/


by Alice Marshall on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Matt (none / 0)

Matt,

Thanks for pointing this out. Even I'm not seeing eye to eye with you, I think you're largely honest.  I can't agree with your 'radical' ideology though.

Poor Obama.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:40:54 PM EST

look matt (none / 0)

when someone who spends a minority of their time for a candidate posts something on a blog it doesn't necessarily mean they agree with the candidate or they are doing it on the candidate's behalf


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:41:45 PM EST

Re: look matt (none / 0)

Your rules only apply to all non-Hillary camps.

Roll my eyes. cough. cough.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

Lehane speaks unofficially for the Clinton campaign.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 1)

I think that's a fair point.  This opinion is STOOPID.  Why would Obama hire this guy as his sharpest legal mind on the campaign?


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

Or Gibbs, creator of the slimiest ad campaign ever designed by a Democrat against another Democrat (DEAN MORPHS INTO OBAMA-FREAKING-BIN-LADIN) as his "campaign spokesman" for that matter.    


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

I don't know these details, thanks very much for revealing these scumbags' history.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

Why did you use Obama bin laden instead of Osama bin ladin?

Playing rightwing games are we?


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

It was an honest typo mistake.  I have never made that connection in the past, as you well know.  


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 3)

Matt, this type of thread is exactly what is wrong with this site.  It takes a misreading of an article not attached to Sen. Obama and tries to slur him with it. Shame on you for your involvement.

The piece is not arguing a legal point, it is Bauer's opinion as a progressive what he feels progressives should think. It's arguing a pardon would be good for gotcha reasons.  As he says:


Progressives are not so much appalled by Libby's lies as they are frustrated that this is all they have: Libby and only Libby. Left with only this, they want this small victory unspoiled. They want someone to pay.

But if the President pardons Libby, and by this act makes the case his own, he will have picked up a portion of the cost. Libby will fall back, restored to obscurity. Bush will step forward and take the lead role. He will have to explain himself; he will have to answer questions.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 1)

Shame on me?  Nah, shame is for Catholics.  I'm Jewish, so I prefer guilt.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 0)

Really.  What the hell is wrong with you?


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

LOL.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

Are you nuts?  Trying to slime Obama?  The guys is Obama's General Counsel?  Do you know what that means?  It means this guy is the top legal guy in the campaign.  The Obama equivalent of AGAG.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 2)

In fairness to you, Matt, a campaign employee has to know that any opinion he/she expresses in writing, even if it is his/hers and not the candidates, will be attached to the candidate. It is that simple.  If I were Obama, I'd give him a hell of a dressing down and possibly fire him.  This is a major breach of protocol and anyone in a staff capacity like general counsel should know this.

To your next question - why would he hire the guy?  My only explanation is maybe he is a wiz at election/campaign finance law because this is about the dumbest idea I have heard in a while.  


by John Mills on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

You hit the nail on the head!!


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

I like Obama but having worked on a number of campaigns what Bauer did is a big no-no.  You never want to either upstage or put the candidate in an uncomfortable position.


by John Mills on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (3.00 / 2)

Because he's super-smart about campaign finance and election law, which is what Bauer's handling for them.  But I agree with you that his political guess as to the fallout from a mid-term pardon (let alone an end-of-term one) is wrong.


by Adam B on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

That's reasonable.  He made a political mistake and hurt his boss a bit.  Not a huge foul.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

There's a broader question, though, and that's whether folks associated with a campaign (and esp. a presidential campaign) are ever "off the clock" when it comes to things they post publicly.  Bauer updates his campaign finance law blog daily with his opinions, and generally takes a dim view of the laws for which he simultaneously gives his clients compliance advice.  Can he even do that?


by Adam B on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

I don't know that there's any hard and fast rule, but I imagine that in such a scenario, he should spend some time making a very explicit disclaimer.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you actually read the piece? (none / 0)

The very first line, in italics:

All the views expressed in this post are those of the author and not of any client of his firm.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

But I fear plenty of people are going to attribute his views regardless.  


by Adam B on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 07:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: look matt (none / 0)

You are never really off the clock if you are working on a campaign which is why you need to be very careful about what you say.  If you post something like Bauer did, you need to put a disclaimer right upfront that this is your opinion and not associated with the candidate in anyway.

I like Obama but Bauer needs a serious talking to.  If your name is not on the ballot, you have to remember you are staff (even if you are high level staff) and your actions reflect on the principal.  Bauer clearly forgot that rule.


by John Mills on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:06:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

I think we can all agree that every candidates staff has some lose ends.  At least Bob Bauer isn't anti-union or anti-blogger (although Obama has made some critical statements about bloggers).


by enarjay on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:48:42 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

Yah


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

And no doubt this type of thread is exactly why anyone in his right mind would have problems with bloggers who either don't take the time to read or can't comprehend.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Where's the whining when there's a daily hit piece on Hillary?

If you can't take it, don't dump it.


by carolinezhang on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

When there's a hit piece and I partcipate call me out on it.  I will gladly back any defense against any hit piece which misrepresents the facts and statements made by others.  As everyone here should.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Loose ends?  The general counsel of your campaign is loose ends?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing to see here, move along (none / 0)

Obviously he's not a great legal mind, just like Mudcat isn't a great public face for the JRE campaign in the opera community, but both of these two things are tempests in teapots. I'm just glad that it seems Edwards supporters weren't the hacks too many Obamaniacs were on the "Mudcat Flap." Now, let's go compare those two healthcare plans (and that one missing one), or how they dealt with Reid-Feingold and the Capitulation Bill, etc.
Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:57:29 PM EST

Re: Nothing to see here, move along (none / 0)

or their positions on Iraq prior to the start of the war? Or the way they spent their careers before getting into politics?


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing to see here, move along (none / 0)

Then I guess you'll be happy to attribute this article to Bill since Bauer was Counsel to the Democratic Leader in the Trial of President William Jefferson Clinton .


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

Obama surrounds himself with people who have very different opinions - i.e. Lincoln.  Check out today's Politico.com article.  This prevents the group think of the Bush administration.  I'm really supportive of this - it is good for the country.


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:58:44 PM EST

Wow. (none / 0)

Excellent take.  I agree and think it is a good idea for any campaign.  The final word still comes from the candidate.


Obama Citizen Ad Videos
by lovingj on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

That is all well and good.  One in Bauer's position doesn't go public with out clearance first though.  If he does, it reflects badly on the campaign.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (1.00 / 1)

who cares.


by aiko on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:06:41 PM EST

The Bob Shrum Award (3.00 / 2)

The nominees for the Bob Shrum award for 2008 are so far.

1.  The Joe Biden campaign

  1.  The John Edwards campaign
  2.  The Barack Obama campaign


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:07:08 PM EST

Re: The Bob Shrum Award (none / 0)

Clinton is running an excellent campaign. The others are not.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

It's funny, you would think this suggestion would be endorsed by most Progressives who seem to enjoy arguing and fighting.  Libby in jail let's the complicity of Bush fade into the background. Libby pardoned puts it front and center in the news again and shines a spotlight on the White House and the Republicans. The pardon becomes a campaign issue.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:10:29 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

How does it put it on the front burner?  Has the media covered Libby's trial much?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

This is so stupid.

Stoller, only a few days ago, wrote on dkos how we as a party should openly and honestly disagree on issue. That it was healthy.

Now bauer makes an argument, AS A PROGRESSIVE, for why a pardon would be good for PROGRESSIVE CAUSES and somehow Obama needs to apologize, when Obama is not in favor of a pardon himself.

I don't get it.


by dpg220 on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:13:41 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Who's asking Obama to apologize?


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A flag ... a red one (none / 0)

and a great of example of what bothers me about Obama. He's too much about games and tactics and subtle savvy calculation. That leaves me not disliking what I hear and see, but it leaves me not trusting any of it either.  


by Leslie H on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:16:21 PM EST

But... (none / 0)

...it wasn't Obama who said it.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and... (none / 0)

Obama is explicitly against a pardon


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, my bad (none / 0)

You and Vermonter are right. I should have said, "His campaign is too much about ...", not "He's too much about ...."

For clarity ... Edwards gets my vote in the primary, but I'll donate my last dollar and knock on doors until I drop and do WHATEVER is legally permissable under current election law to make sure the next President is NOT one of the Republican ten dwarves.


by Leslie H on Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 10:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

So are all the people who wanted Mudcat fired going to call Obama and ask for this guy to be fired?

I hope not, cause all of this is a little silly.


"Keep the Faith"
by blue south on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:17:36 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Did anyone call for David Saunders to be fired?


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

yeah, i think you're making up these people who called for saunders to be fired. and mudcat's piece was more of an explicit attack against large communities within the Democratic Party, whereas Bauer was just floating some wacky idea about spinning a pardon. but the point still stands--neither of these guys are official campaign spokesmen


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 2)

Has anyone yet to address his basic point, that a pardon would make Bush complicit in the outing of Valerie Plame?


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:24:06 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

The primary problem with Obama is his lack of experience. . .if he had spent some more time in politics he'd know that the Establishment Dems are all fucking morons who couldn't win an election if their lives depended on it.

Fire the morons, Senator.  They're hurting you more than helping you.


by Jim Treglio on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:24:12 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (3.00 / 1)

Do you really believe the country supports a pardon?  I don't.  I think most smart politicians would welcome Bush pardonning some who lied about the outing of a CIA spy and his opponent endorsing that pardon.


by dougdilg on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Um. . .I just said that Bauer (who is supporting the pardon) was an idiot and that Obama should fire him.

Would the country support a pardon?  Of course not.  That's why Bauer is an idiot.  If Bush does pardon Libby, the Democrats only gain if they take advantage and universally slam him for it.


by Jim Treglio on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're saying (none / 0)

exactly what Bauer is saying...

???


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're saying/ No, he's saying... (none / 0)

No, he's saying that Bush would get away with it, that the Democrats would never unify to slam Bush for the pardon, that the media would be complicit in clouding the issue, and that progressives could never gain enough leverage over the issue to use it the way Bauer's candyland scenario envisons.

Hope that clears it up a little.


by justathought on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jeebus... (none / 0)

Did any of you who are using this to fix the facts around the narrative you've created of Obama as a sell-out actually read the article?

And even remotely understand what Bauer is saying?

I know some of you get the argument, but disagree with it. That's fine. Though I'm not sure why you're so confident that Bauer's not correct here. You might be, but I've seen no persuasive arguments that he's not.

This is not a defense of Libby in any way. And, in fact, he's not suggesting anybody start a "Pardon Libby" campaign.

Bauer's not saying "free Libby" like Kos' reference today would have you believe (or the countless other misleading headlines on this throughout the blogosphere today).

Bauer is daring Bush to be stupid enough to pardon Libby and then maps out how the Democrats could benefit from it, if it happens.

Bauer is suggesting that if Bush doesn't pardon Libby, then Libby will be allowed to simply be the fall guy. And Bush will appear distant from it.

Why is this such a wrong thing to suggest? Seems like common sense to me.

If not for the potential political fall-out from a pardon, why isn't Bush pardoning Libby today?


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:33:42 PM EST

Re: Jeebus... (none / 0)

As was stated in the Huffpost today correctly, we need to get closer to Dick Cheney and perhaps Bush on this shameful episode.    As such what better way to do that than have Libby sit in jail, mulling over his options, then perhaps soften up to spill the beans.   If we come with the attitude "Aw, what the heck.  Let Bush pardon him.  See where it leaves Bush" it not only prevents that strategy, it also is an absolutely asinine argument.   Does anyone in their right mind believe that Bush would be "implicated" by a pardon?  He may shy away from it because of political fallout, but in a larger meta sense, not because it somehow would "bring the case closer to him" again.   I really DON'T get that line of reasoning.  In what conceivable way would a Libby pardon (he would then of course be out of the equation as a possible witness) give the case new life?  

Any way you slice it, the argumentation makes no sense and plays right into the right-winger's hands, as they try to make the public case that Libby is innocent and should not be in jail to begin with.  


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jeebus... (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm not making that argument.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Bush pardons Libby = Bush looks bad

Not that we should be calling for this - but if it happens, good for us bad for them.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:46:53 PM EST

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Honestly, why would we care about that a lot?  Bush already looks bad.  He is at 29%, 30% approval.  So he loses a couple more points, but gains with the conservative right.  I don't really see where on balance that means much to us.  


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

In response to you and Calvin Jones....

Every Bush fuck-up bothers a different component of the electorate. Some people didn't care about the wire-tapping scandal, but a certain section of libertarian conservatives took great offense. Just like a certain segment of law-and-order conservatives would take great offence to a Libby pardon. That's simply breaking the rules! (just like Ford's pardon!)

You say Bush already looks bad? This isn't about looking bad. This is about dwarfing Nixon and Hoover. It is about the Republican party disgracing the presidency for generations to come. It is about Bush building a legacy so despicable, so deceptive, that in 10 years there will be no debate about who was the Worst President Ever. You want a progressive majority? Then you want this president to suffer and die the most painful political death in American history - the kind of death that shakes a Party to its core.

And every little bit helps.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

But, here is the thing.  Bush is hurt tremendously by the Immigration bill.    The right is now turning away from him, causing his numbers to drop below 30% consistently because many right-wingers are now leaving the Bush ship over Immigration.   THAT is the type of disinegration you want.  For Bush to be ridiculous to all sides, nothing but a joke to everybody.   For the right-wing to finally realize that they are dragged down by the "worst of the worst" is even better than the "Read my lips" moments of his father.

If he pardoned Libby he would suddenly gain some posture back with the right-wing and his polls would probably even increase.  Even if they don't, I don't really see where a pardon has any impact one way or another.   Most already disdain the guy.  Short of him actually going out and murdering someone, a pardon is not going to make that much of a difference to anyone, IMHO.  


by georgep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 10:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

I have to agree here.  Did anyone remember that the pardon question was asked of the Repub candidates, and Gilmore was the only one who clearly said no.  The rest of the candidates, remember there were 10, either were for a pardon, attacked Fitzgerald, or needed to look into the specifics before making a decision.  If these are the Repub candidate for Pres, and they think it's okay to equivocate or say yes to a pardon, then what is the fall out for Bush.  Further, The Right Wing is masterful at changing the facts to fit their talking points, which they spread far and why through their Right Wing Machinery.  If Bush grants Scooter a pardon, the Dems will do their usual blustering to no avail.  Meanwhile Scooter, the ultimate insider, will start appearing on Hardball and similar shows as a Republican strategist or political analyst.


by Kingstongirl on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Bauer Open Thread (none / 0)

Who does Bush look bad to?  He already is the worst President in history to us.  The wing nuts will like him again if he pardons Libby.  What does Bush lose by pardoning Libby?  As the DOJ investigation shows, they are stonewalling to the max.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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