2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-Heads vs. 2008 GOPers

In the past couple of days, two pretty interesting polls have come out testing potential head-to-head match-ups for all nine possible permutations of the current top three contenders for the Democratic and Republican presidential nominations: The Hotline (.pdf), which polls along with alcohol producer Diageo, and Newsweek. While the two pollsters did not ask their questions or formulate their interviews exactly the same, both included leaners and both included the party of each candidate in the question (which one might argue would yield more reliable results than polls that do not include each candidate's party affiliation). The numbers play out as follows (both among registered voters):

Hotline Newsweek Hotline Newsweek Hotline Newsweek
McCain 45 44 Giuliani 47 46 Romney 35 35
Clinton 45 50 Clinton 45 49 Clinton 50 57
McCain 37 39 Giuliani 39 43 Romney 25 29
Obama 48 52 Obama 48 50 Obama 54 58
McCain 37 42 Giuliani 41 44 Romney 26 27
Edwards 48 52 Edwards 47 50 Edwards 52 64

Looking at both of these polls, one of which (Hotline) shows President Bush with a 35 percent approval rating while the other (Newsweek) finds just 28 percent currently approving of the President (indicating that their results are not necessarily reflective of merely an unprecedentedly low level of support for George W. Bush), it becomes quite clear that the Democrats are in a strong position in the race for the presidency in 2008. While the individual Democratic candidates polled don't lead their Republican adversaries by the 18- to 19-point margin by which a generic Democrat is leading a generic Republican (save for against Mitt Romney, who appears to garner the support of a remarkably small portion of voters), these polls indicate that any of the three Democratic frontrunners has the potential to at least be competitive with any of the top three Republican candidates currently running and, in some cases, maintain a fairly robust lead.



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Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

According to these and some other polls I've seen, it looks like Obama might be our strongest candidate against any of the GOP's top three.

Very interesting.


by musa on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:16:42 AM EST

I Am Not Sure (3.00 / 1)

I am supporting Obama as well but I am not sure if one can reasonably argue that he has an advantage over Edwards.  Obama does slightly better in five columns, Edwards substantially in the sixth, so much so that it may well be a fluke.  Regardless, Obama's lead over Edwards is so slight that it is statistically meaningless.

More importantly, in light of American race dynamics, sadly, one must suspect that these polls are slightly overestimating Obama's support because there will be a number of racists who don't dare to admit their sentiments to the interviewer.  In the secrecy of the ballot box, most of them will ultimately vote on their racial preferences.

Having said that both Obama and Edwards are in a strong position.  Clinton is the Republicans' best hope.  On the other hand, Obama's and Edwards' negatives will increase as well when the Republican attack machine targets them.  Still, on balance, I think that a Clinton nomination would be a gift to the Republicans.


by Hellmut on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Am Not Sure (3.00 / 1)

Something I've been meaning to say... Not against you, or anyone in particular, just, How do we know racists aren't getting fixed into these polls?  It's not like they're being asked, "Are you racist?"  They are being asked "Who would you vote for, Obama or McCain?"  They can easily just say McCain and have it be done.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:08:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Am Not Sure (none / 0)

Typically when it comes to racial attitudes polls do not necessarily reflect what a certain percentage actually believe or for whom they will vote. The fact is a certain number of people would rather tell the pollster I progressive enough to vote for Obama than admit race matters to them. And not all these people are Republicans. This also includes a percentage of Democrats. In other words, racism in its most subverse form has gone underground. Even if people say "I'm not doing it for race" there maybe that factor in play for a small percentage. I wish I had the links and cites to where I've read these things, but it's general knowlege that if you are interested you can look up to find.


by bruh21 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point (none / 0)

Hardcore racists wouldn't have any qualms about telling a pollster he wouldn't vote for Obama. The gap that's occurred in the past between what a black candidate polls and what he receives on election day was probably due to more subtle feelings of racism among voters.

It isn't 1985 anymore, though. Harold Ford outperformed most of the polls last fall. And just look at the status and popularity of Tiger Woods and Oprah in our society. I don't think it's appropriate to wring our hands over this any longer. Leave that to Fox News.


by eskimo on Sun May 06, 2007 at 04:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The hard core racists (none / 0)

will never vote for a Democrat anyway. Well, maybe if Biden wins the nomination. They will not vote for a liberal woman (Hillary), or someone who will raise taxes to give everyone - including blacks - health care (Edwards).


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed with that (none / 0)

though I think most racism in America, is subconsious more than conscious. Not only a secret in the ballot box, but a secret from themselves as well.


by okamichan13 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Both Edwards and Obama are within the margin of error. This far out that's too little difference to  favor one above the other as strongest candidate.

Hillary seems to be underperforming at the moment.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

I find all this poll stuff very interesting.


by rikyrah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:24:44 AM EST

Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (3.00 / 1)

I know that all the candidate partisans will want to make hay over this.  But really, all it shows is that Dems are all in a good position over Reps.  You can't project anything in terms of the electoral college from the slight differences in matchups between the Democratic candidates.

Imagine!  Being forced to make decisions based on what candidates stand for!

It's just terrible!


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:32:33 AM EST

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (3.00 / 1)

I think you can make electoral college evaluations. A woman, especially one not considered likable, doesn't figure to play as well in vital swing states like Florida, Ohio and Virginia. Those are still basically conservative states where we have little margin for error. Only Ohio would be favored in our camp right now, regardless of the nominee.

I love our overall position but no way I'm ignoring basic electability. It bit our ass here in the Nevada governors race last year when we rolled the dice and nominated a female with likability and electability issues. She lost handily to a bumbling goober who is facing a possible recall situation.

Dynamics change based on matchups. I deal with that every day in sports so I'm far less reluctant to apply it to politics, and am amazed when others want to ignore it. When Georgetown came from behind to upset North Carolina in the regional final that dramatically altered the Final Four, essentially doubling Florida's chance. That was true in terms of talent, style and game odds. When Chicago defeated New Orleans in the NFC title game, suddenly you had a 6.7 yards per attempt QB trying to win the Super Bowl in Grossman and not an 8.0 guy in Drew Brees. Best of luck in that. Not much different in politics, where we forfeit the dosage index edge if we nominate Hillary. The differences are slight but critical. I'm a gambler and I want the edges in my favor, not tilting the other way.  


by Gary Kilbride on Sun May 06, 2007 at 04:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (none / 0)

That is all conventional wisdom that you have spouted back.  This poll has given you zero information to back that up, except perhaps that Hillary is doing more poorly than Obama and Edwards.  

And you could substitute 'black' for 'woman' in most of that above discussion, and it would be just as "true," though Obama admittedly, according to CW, doesn't have "likeability issues."

And people said that a Catholic was inherently unelectable in 1960.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun May 06, 2007 at 07:59:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (none / 0)

It's not that Hillary is a woman, it's that she is unlikeable. Experienced, qualified - yes. Likeable and charismatic? No.

We should stop nominating Adlai Stevensom over and over again.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:16:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (none / 0)

Pure baloney.

From jallen's post:

Rasmussen-
Edwards favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 26%%
somewhat favorable 55%
somewhat unfavorable 7%  
very unfavorable 5%
not sure 6%

Obama's favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 35%
somewhat favorable 37%
somewhat unfavorable 13%
very unfavorable 8%
not sure 7%  

Hillary's favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 40%
somewhat favorable 37%
somewhat unfavorable 10%
very unfavorable 11%
not sure 3%

Edwards total favorable=81, unfav=12, net=69
Obama total favorable=72, unfav=21, net=51
Hillary total favorable=77, unfav=21, net=56

If 77% favorable (compared to Obama's lower 72%) is "unlikeable," then we should all be so lucky.    She is "liked" just fine, especially with Democrats.  Right-wing nutjobs may not like her, but so what?


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (none / 0)

among non Democrats? since that only accounts for what 33 to 36 of the voters


by bruh21 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (none / 0)

among non Democrats? since that only accounts for what 33 to 36 of the voters


by bruh21 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Interesting, But Not Dispositive (3.00 / 1)

I dont think Hillary's likability and gender are totally separate as you claim. A lot of the attacks thrown at her are (ambitious, conniving etc.) effective BECAUSE she's a woman.


by AC4508 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not qutie based on zero information (none / 0)

as your post indicates:

"except perhaps that Hillary is doing more poorly than Obama and Edwards."  

thats the crux of it


by okamichan13 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary vs. Other Dems: 'Slight' Difference?? (3.00 / 1)

Leaving Romney out of this comparison, since he's toast any which way:

In the four polls against Giuliani and McCain, Hillary has an average edge of 1.75%.  Not much.

For Obama, it's 10%; for Edwards, it's 8.25%.  Pretty solid in both cases.

That's an argument for deciding between Edwards and Obama on the basis of which one you'd really like to see in the White House, but factoring in Clinton's possible electability problems.

Especially because, ever since her post-announcement bounce, her approval ratings have been dropping like a rock, from an approval/disapproval of 58-40 on Feb. 9-11, to 54-42 on March 2-4, to 48-48 on March 23-25, to 47-49 on April 2-5, to 45-52 on April 13-15.  (All numbers from Gallup.)

There's a big risk factor present with Clinton in terms of electability that isn't present with Obama or Edwards.  Unless she has some pretty substantial premium over the other two in terms of her likely performance as President, why would you want to take that risk?  The downside, after all, is a McCain or Giuliani Presidency.


by RT on Sun May 06, 2007 at 07:27:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (3.00 / 2)

  I think it's too bad whe don't just have an Edwards/Obama race, both are great candidates who should do very if nominated, Obama is the better one in my opinion but Edwards has many strenghts and would probably also do very well in a general,franky I wish Hillary wasn't even running,look at the above numbers she takes all the partison advantages we have right now and brings us back to the 50/50 nation before the campaign even begins, and we'd have to fight the same old battles again and again and again.Hillary would have been fine in 2004 when the best any dem was gonna do was pretty much get about the half of the country who had already soured on Bush by that point. Now dems have a once in a generation chance to redine the nature of the electorate, a chance that gets thrown in the trash by picking Hillary.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:46:20 AM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (3.00 / 1)

Boy, that democracy thing really bites, doesn't it?   And, of all things, the head-to-head matchup in the Newsweek poll between Clinton and Obama/Edwards shows clearly who DEMOCRATS think makes our best candidate.   I think WE know better than low-information right-wing GOPers or low-information Independents which candidate should be our representative.  The biggest reason cited for opposition to Hillary Clinton was that she is "too liberal," after all.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:01:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Republican's say she's too liberal.

Democrats say she isn't liberal enough.  

Nobody wants to take her.  

She happens to be a leaning left, possibly centrist.  She gets called 'too liberal' because of Bill Clinton.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (3.00 / 1)

"Republican's say she's too liberal.

Democrats say she isn't liberal enough.  

Nobody wants to take her."

If that were true she would be in Joe Biden polling territory.  Since that is not the case, I suggest that the second part of your answer is fatally flawed.  Demcorats (as a whole) constantly state that "she is just right" for them.   That is then reflected in polls which show that she is well ahead of both Obama and Edwards in direct matchups.   Obviously, Democrats are missing something in the other two candidates that they see in her.

There are plenty of reasons why she is the more appealing candidate to Democrats, most of the pointers have been discussed widely on this blog:  She is seen as the candidate best equipped to deal with the Iraq mess, the best candidate on questions related to economic concerns, health care, education.  On the flip side, Obama has too strong an experience gap for the taste of many Democrats, he has perplexed some Democrats by being very slim on details, to the point of appearing unprepared in front of large Democratic advocacy and labor groups.   Edwards has his own set of problems, as is evident in how low his overall support amongst Democrats is (16.4% average as per RCP.)      


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Her numbers are high because people think without saying that she will be Bill Clinton. It's nostalgic interest, not reality.


by bruh21 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Health Care = Why she has a high unfavorability rating.  People criticized her proposal for being socialized medicine.  She has to "rebuild" her image on health.  Something I'm against.  One candidate one day, another candidate another day.  Just so long as you win.  

Iraq = Matter of opinion.  I don't think she's the best one to deal with it.  Why it's a matter of opinion is because we don't know the outcome.  

I'm going to note again, this is a three way race.  Being the second choice candidate doesn't help her when people have their #1 candidate instead.  

I agree with the post above.  People hear Hillary Clinton and they think Clinton.  Bill Clinton.  '93-'01.  Good.  Which is the wrong though process to take.  Hillary isn't Bill.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

He will be a big part of her presidency.  In many ways it will be a repeat of the Bill Clinton presidency, only more progressive.  Some may not like that, and vote accordingly.  Others want to see Bill Clinton again in the White House, making vital decisions, helping assemble the cabinet, etc.  

As to the issues:  Poll after poll shows that she has an advantage on the vital issues over her two main competitors with Democrats.   The only issue she is not towering over her competitors with is the environment.  Again, that is not YOU or ME speaking and expressing our own personal views, but an aggregate of the Democratic electorate.  

I am not quite clear on this comment:

"I'm going to note again, this is a three way race.  Being the second choice candidate doesn't help her when people have their #1 candidate instead."

Can you explain this further?   People have Edwards as their #1 choice to the tune of about 16%.  The rest of the Democrats have other #1 candidates.  Being the #2 candidate on someone's list gives one at least a fighting chance at that voter over a period of time.  Being way down the list gives him virtually no chance to capture that voter in the end.   Clinton gets a majority of Democrats in direct head-to-head matchups against either Obama or Edwards, but her strong showing in #2 choices (with both Edwards AND Obama voters) suggests that she gains as either of those two fall away.    


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

I don't think Hillary will be a repeat of Bill at all.  That's the facade a lot of people are buying into.  

You give the American people way too much credit.  Most either Vote one way always, or vote based on how their pocketbook looks.  (Both don't touch issues and how the candidates feel about the issues).  The rest, which is about 30% is what we have to sway.  (Doesn't give American's much credit when almost 70% decide without looking at the candidates).  

Okay.  The head to head polls of Hillary-Obama, Hillary-Edwards, Obama-Edwards show what would happen if this were a two-way primary race.  Hillary would win.  (Quite possibly for said reasons above).  

However, this is a three way race.  People who have Obama as their first choice will vote for him if he's still in the race.  People who have Edwards as their first choice will vote for him if he's still in the race.  Your 1on1 head to head polls mean 0 when it comes to the primary races.  If you look at the polls, neither Edwards or Obama are falling away.  Exactly why Hillary is going down in the polls.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Eventually it will become a two-way race.  At which point whoever is at #1 and at #2 will pick up the portion of who the "fallen-away" candidate's #2 choice was going to be.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

If you're talking about pre-primary:
1. I don't think the majority of Obama or Edwards supporters are terribly loose with their commitments.  You always have people bouncing around.  I think they'll both continue to rise and then eventually maintain around a certain point.  

Unless if you're talking about the Primaries, in which case:
2. I don't think it will become a two-way race till after Super Tuesday.  That will be when  Hope goes out the window for anyone not clearly winning. More than likely someone will clean up on super Tuesday and put the primary in the box.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Because of Bill Clinton?  Über-centrist Bill Clinton?


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

The problem with Hillary is style & personality, not substance.


by howardpark on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:35:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

george,

I was wondering how you were going to spin this.  Your candidate is running between 5-10 points behind Edwards and Obama in head to heads. So what is your political analysis to explain away this huge and potentially fatal electability problem?  Basically, you stand back and say, "Nanananani,  my candidate is still ahead of your candidate in the Dem primary." Perhaps it would be too bold to suggest that you are not addresseing the relevant question:

Why on earth would Dems want to nominate such a vulneralble candidate when we have two excellent, politically-viable alternatives?


by upper left on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:29:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Because arguments about electability eight months before the first primary are pretty dumb? Should this kind of gap still be there in November, then it's an issue. Right now, it's making a mountain out of a molehill.
Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Arguments about electibility have screwed us sooooo many times in the past.  How about we stop guessing what voters in Texas and Wyoming will go for and let's just nominate someone we actually like.  It's a lot easier to pick someone you like than it is to guess what someone else might like.  

And, if you win, you end up with a much better President.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Which November are you talking about?  '07 or '08?  If you're talking about '07 I guess I understand.  If you're talking about '08 we could nominate someone who has 0% chance of winning.  (= bad)


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:07:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

0% of winning = your opinion.

My opinion:  Our best chance of winning.  

See, opinions vary.  It is up to the Democratic voters to decide who they want to trust with the task to win the presidency.  I have been a Democratic activist for decades.  I have long ago decided to back any candidate the Democratic majority feels worthy of their support (despite my personal opinion that Clinton would make our best candidate.)  So, if it happens to be Obama, I'll be there.  Same with Edwards.   I think it will be Clinton for the reasons already mentioned, but how do I know?  The Democratic voters will decide in a Democratic process.

 May the best candidate win.  

:-)

And may you come off the devil's path and be spared from becoming a frigging Republican (and an active poster on FreeRepublic) by realizing that the Democratic voter is smarter than you give him credit for, that painting them as dumb and lazy is in itself a lazy copout to explain away real shortcomings your own chosen candidate may actually have.      

:-)


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

I doubt I'd vote Republican, I'm just saying, I'd think about it.  I'd probably vote third party first.  

I'm pretty sure I painted the picture quite well.  Not that many people are paying attention to the primaries, especially not yet.  Around two million people watched the debate, PLENTY more will vote in the primaries.  What stops the people who don't care yet from being polled?  Nothing.  That's why I think as more people take a look and think about it, the tide will turn.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide (none / 0)

Fair enough.  I believe I have seen evidence to the contrary, which leads me to believe in the opposite, but we'll see.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (3.00 / 1)

What amazes me more than anything is that HRC finally has crept up to, even slightly ahead of some GOP frontrunners. Although I don't believe for a second if she is our nominee, we will win (William Kristol said he would endorse her if he didn't think that might make her lose the nomination). She really is the only hope of the GOP at this point and I wouldn't be at all surprised if she starts getting GOP $ (ala Lieberman) if she starts to drop behind for the Dem nomination.

That said, it's way to early to glean much information from polls at all since most of the electorate is appallingly uninformed and uninterested. The exception possibly being HRC's neg rating as she's well known and, ironically,  irrationally hated.


by BeekerDynasty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 03:49:34 AM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Do you have a specific source/date when Kristol said that?  I think more people are already paying attention and greater attention than you imply- relatively.  It would be interesting if pollsters asked Republicans which one of our Big 3 they would rather run against (sorry, Richardson 08).

Finally, I would maybe substitute "ironically" with "tragically."  But of course, it is partially her fault because when you constantly put out "us versus them", that is what you get back.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Considering that you want to stop Hillary I am a bit surprised to see that you are supporting Richardson instead of Obama or Edwards?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Perhaps that is that most people don't like voting against somebody.

Not everybody lets their choice depend an a negative view of somebody else. People generally want to to vote for somebody they like best and think the most capable instead.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Could be he just opposes Hillary, rather than her policies. Or it could just be that he bases his vote almost entirely on 'electability'.
Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:56:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

In 18 possible match-ups, Democrats win 16, tie one and lose just one (Giuliani beating Clinton 47-45 in the Hotline).  The Republicans make things easier and easier, too, by marching lemming-like in tune with Mr. 28% Bush.  It's just incredible that 99% of House Republicans voted to uphold Bush's veto on Iraq.


by David Kowalski on Sun May 06, 2007 at 04:11:48 AM EST

Between Iraq and a Hard Place (none / 0)

The Congressional Republicans are in a terrible place politically - not that I'm shedding any tears.

On the one hand, about 57-60% of Americans want us out of Iraq by next year.  On the other hand, 30-35% of Americans want us to stay and 'finish the job' - and they're all in the GOP base.

So they're stuck with the dilemma of: how do you win an election if you support the President, and how do you win a primary if you don't?

Bet a bunch of them have changes of heart once deadlines for primary challenges pass early next year.

This is why the Dems should alternate 60-day funding extensions with the bill that Bush just vetoed.  First one, then the other, all through the year.  Get them voting to prolong the war as many times as possible, so that if they have politically safe conversions next spring, it'll be obvious to everyone just what their game was.


by RT on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Am I the only one? (none / 0)

I must be the only one that thinks this is crazy.

I just DO NOT SEE republiKans coming out in force to vote for Rudy... I honestly think he is the one of the three we CRUSH no matter who we nominate. Hell, I would bet that in a real election, after 6 months of adds, and 'meeting the candidates' crap that even Kucinich could beat Rudy....


by benjamink on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:12:59 AM EST

Re: Am I the only one? (none / 0)

They will rally behind their candidate just like we will, especially since they are backed into a corner now losing both house and senate.


by okamichan13 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that the front posters are way too nice (none / 0)

on Hillary. These numbers tells me it would be an epic mistake to nominate her.

If Obama or Edwards win the 2008 presidential election is basically over and we can focus on downticket races. If Hillary wins we will have the fight of our lives and possibly lose the downticket races.

There is absolutely no good reasons for nominating Hillary Clinton in 2008.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:18:41 AM EST

Re: I think that (3.00 / 1)

One possible reason could be who Democrats actually prefer to be their nominee (instead of the General population, which also consists consists of many low-info GOPers and low-info Independents.)  

 It is obvious that Edwards can't attract Democrats in large enough numbers.  His first AND second choice numbers don't even hit 30% COMBINED, which should tell you that unless he can dramatically change that alignment he does not stand a chance.    

Basically, the argument that the candidate who appeals strongest to the general population because of "unfortunate" misconceptions right-wingers may have about the other candidate (they believe by and large that Clinton is "too liberal") is flawed.   It is first and foremost about who DEMOCRATS like best of the candidates running.   Lieberman polled well with the general population, but that does not mean that he is a good or the best candidate for DEMOCRATS.  

The Newsweek poll referenced here shows a very clear and strong pro-Clinton position taken by Democrats, when compared to the other candidates:

Clinton    51%
Obama    39%

Clinton    57%
Edwards  38%

Obama    49%
Edwards  41%

Democrats prefer Clinton to Obama by a healthy margin, they prefer Clinton to Edwards by a massive margin.  They also prefer Obama to Edwards by a healthy margin.

It gets worse when SECOND choices are asked for and given.  She is popular as a first or second choice with almost 7 of 10 Democrats, after all, a very strong position to be in at this point.  In contrast, Edwards does not even get 3 of 10 Democrats to list him as their first OR second choice.  

As Singer pointed out, all 3 candidates look to be in a healthy position against the GOP candidates, but apparently Democrats strongly prefer that candidate to be Clinton (so far) and that choice could also become important regionally, as a potential Giuliani candidacy could become a problem in states like NY or NJ with Obama or Edwards as our candidate.  

It is also worth noting that another major poll a few days ago took state polls in the most crucial states (more important than national polls) and dissected them as for head-to-head matchups, and Obama fared very poorly.   Not that these head-to-head matchups mean that much, what is most important for the primaries is how you are liked or disliked by your base, first and foremost.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

Rasmussen-
Edwards favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 26%%
somewhat favorable 55%
somewhat unfavorable 7%  
very unfavorable 5%
not sure 6%

Obama's favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 35%
somewhat favorable 37%
somewhat unfavorable 13%
very unfavorable 8%
not sure 7%  

Hillary's favorability among Democrats:
very favorable 40%
somewhat favorable 37%
somewhat unfavorable 10%
very unfavorable 11%
not sure 3%

Edwards total favorable=81, unfav=12, net=69
Obama total favorable=72, unfav=21, net=51
Hillary total favorable=77, unfav=21, net=56


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

 Rasmussen is "swimming against the waves" on virtually everything related to Democrats (and Bush, for that matter.)  Other polls have shown Clinton to have higher favorability in comparison to the other 2 candidates.    But, taken at face value, your comment and poll result illustrates a very important point that deserves mention:  Personal favorability factors is somewhat important, but is not the be-all.  Your numbers suggest that amongst Democrats Clinton is positioned strong in that category above Obama, but slightly below Edwards.  The fact is that she clearly outdistances Edwards in who Democrats would actually vote for.   The reason is that "personal favorability" is only part of the puzzle.   "Who someone would rather want to drink a beer with" makes up a portion of the whole, but other factors include who Democrats believe would be a better "bean counter" and a better "CEO" and a better "delegator," etc.    Her personal favorability amongst Democrats is obviously very high, but other factors weigh just as much, if not even more, which is why Edwards is not getting a lot of love from Democrats (so far.)  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

"Other polls have shown Clinton to have higher favorability in comparison to the other 2 candidates."  

should have read:

Other polls conducted with Democrats have shown Clinton to have higher favorability in comparison to the other 2 candidates.


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

My comment was a response to:

It is obvious that Edwards can't attract Democrats in large enough numbers.

Most Democrats appear happy to vote for him or Obama, or Hillary.  He may not be their first choice, but they sure do like him.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:26:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

I see where you were coming from.  As for "personal likeability" they are all about the same with Dems, give or take.  But the poll gap has to come from somewhere.  Since it is no longer name ID it would have to be other factors like the above mentioned.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:42:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

I think Rasmussen is an outlier when it comes to these favorability polls.  Edwards and Obama's favorability are both way too high.  As Hillary's unfavorability seems a bit low.  

Maybe the other favorability polls are focused on everyone rather than among Democrats.  However, the difference is a good indicator of Primary vs. General.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (3.00 / 1)

Who Democrats prefer does not always equal who the best candidate is.  As seen in 2004, Edwards or Dean probably could have made stronger General Election campaigns.  

On top of that, early polling is never right.  Touting early polls only shows ignorance.  Democrats sway a bit in who they want over time.  People aren't bound to stay in the "Clinton camp" forever.  Only 60,000 people have donated so far, and are therefore committed.  Obama has 104,000 people + about 44,000 since.  

Clinton is the only candidate who would make me debate between voting Democrat and Republican in 2008.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (3.00 / 2)

"Clinton is the only candidate who would make me debate between voting Democrat and Republican in 2008."

Niiiice.   You know, I find that comment irrational and highly inappropriate on a progressive [b]DEMOCRATIC [/b]blog.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:04:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

I don't think we should have kids/spouses running the country within 8 years of their father/spouse.  I think it turns into a "You guys benefit off of having this guy as president for 4-8 years, then we'll take the next president and benefit off of that one for 4-8 years."  People are buying the white house, and since they were able to buy someone related to the the next, it makes it that much easier to buy the next.  I am strongly against having two families trade off who is leading this country.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (3.00 / 1)

Excuse me, but you clearly stated that you could see yourself voting for the REPUBLICAN candidate in the upcoming election.  To me that is an unbelievable statement to make on a DEMOCRATIC blog, one that promotes DEMOCRATIC candidates and DEMOCRATIC values.  It is a big strike against coherent, valid discussion on a DEMOCRATIC blog.  I must assume from that statement that you have developed a somewhat irrational hate and intense dislike, which makes discussion extra hard, as everything is seen through that particular hate-lense.  

As to your most recent "argument" against her family relationship:

Lobby your Congressman or Congresswoman as well as Senator to change the Constitution's 22nd amendment to include a clause banning  spouses/children/relatives of former presidents from running for the presidency.   If they think that is a swell idea and they can convince a bunch of their brethren to support the change, it will become the rule of the land.  If they don't, the "argument" you are bringing forth here will be rendered moot as the constitution disagrees with you, vehemently.   But, obviously, it is up to the individual voter to decide whether those types of issues (really not related to what the candidate can do or brings to the table but more or less shallow indictment based on who they are related to) should factor into their vote.  

Hey, how about changing the 22nd amendment to ban anyone who ran for the presidency once from running again?  Or at least putting a clause in to prevent an immediate re-run?   After all, why should someone who ran just 4 years ago be able to start off way ahead in terms of name recognition, infrastructure and campaign organizations already built-up in early states, monies built up in campaing coffers?     Equally silly as the argument about "spouses/children," and equally irrelevant.   The rules are the way they are because the constitution says so, until you get enough people together to change the constitution to reflect your personal preference.      


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

Now you're just getting ridiculous here.  I have weighed my values, and handing the white house to people wanting to buy it ranks up there pretty high as something I'm against.  

You also say Republican like you can't have liberal Republicans or moderate Republicans.  It's "Us versus them" right?  No middle ground, eh?

As for your "You want to change the amendment, huh?" garbage, I don't mind a son or spouse running just so long as it's a tad later than 8 years later.  Which is why I greatly disagree with 2000, 2004 and quite possibly the 2008 elections.  John Adams had his son run for president.  24 years after his dad quit.  Understand my problem now...?  Or are you still trying to twist it to an unreasonable extreme?  I don't mind a current president running for re-election, because if he's doing a bad job He will be ousted.  

Quit bringing up a bunch of ___ that's completely irrelevant.  Stretching what I said as much as you can to make me look radical and unreasonable.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

I am sorry that this appears to be making you upset, but I am calling out BS when I see it.  This "wife/son/daughter" thing does not wash.  EVERYBODY should be entitled to run for president.  EVERYBODY who was born on US soil and is not a felon.  Yes, that includes sons, daughters, wifes of former presidents and at any time they wish.  

As for the "voting for a Republican" thing.  You are absolutely on the extreme end of the spectrum with this.  Any of our candidates is worlds better than ANY of the Republican candidates.  As for "liberal" Republicans and "moderate" Republicans:  Last time I checked Lincoln Chafee is not running for the GOP nomination.  Everybody else running is "conservative" or running as a Ronald Reagan heir.  That includes Chuck Hagel, who is "moderate" only when it comes to the Iraq situation, but anything but on basically all other issues.  

So, please pray tell and flesh out your comment then:  Should Hillary Clinton win the nomination, which of the GOP candidates would have a good shot at winning your vote in the General election?   The candidates with a shot are Giuliani, McCain, Romeny and perhaps Gingrich and Thompson (once either or both announce.)  

There are other variables that make voting for a Republican president a gigantic ZERO CHANCE for any progressive, such as Supreme Court justice considerations, gaining consensus on legislation not in need of vetoproof majorities, etc.   But even if those weren't enough reasons to never go the GOP route for a progressive, even moderate Democrat, I don't see a candidate that would come even close to what Democrats would consider centrist/moderate in any way.   I would be interested in finding out who you think that candidate might be on their side.   And, YES, considering the garbage this country has gone through courtesy of Bush, Cheney, DeLay, Hastert, etc. it really is  US vs. THEM.    


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

Hillary should be entitled to run for president.  When she does so only eight years after Clinton, I have a problem with it.  Who do you think is going to donate to her campaign?  Everyone who had special benefits from Bill being president.  That just makes buying your ambassadorship or other special benefits all too easy when you have a relative of someone you already had bought running.  It's not bullshit to think that'll happen, why do you think Clinton has a lot of big donors already?  They are gettin' their foot in the door.  Say hello to ambassadors taking their spots.  

Ron Paul might run third party as the Libertarian he is.  He's technically a Republican but didn't fit in with the rest of them.  But since he's technically a Republican, maybe he shouldn't run.  It is Us Versus them I guess.  

The supreme court getting the numbers to over turn Roe V. Wade is the big reason I probably won't vote R.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

Why are the same objections not valid for someone running back-to-back presidential campaigns like Edwards?   He had built an infrastructure in Iowa and New Hamshire as well as other states, starts off already ahead of other candidates in name ID (in Clinton's case not so much, but in general terms most people remember the name of someone who just ran a few years prior.)  

I get what you are saying, and I guess to some it could make a difference.  It is really nothing SHE herself did wrong, but you are against it in principle.   Ok, nothing wrong with that.  All of us have our reasons why we support or not support a given candidate.  It just makes her good showing (particularly across the regions in state polls) so the more impressive, as surely some believe as you do and disqualify her right from the getgo because of her family connections.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

I don't have a problem with Edwards running a back to back campaign.  He didn't win, therefore people investing in his campaign shouldn't have confidence in him.  Therefore are less likely to donate again.  He didn't really get "bought" in any way.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

Since this posting was about Democratic nominees, DON't forget 48% percent of likely votes say tht a Hillary Clinton Presidency sacares them!

That is an amazing number.  Completely unprecidented.  Why do you suppose that is true?


by BeetleB on Sun May 06, 2007 at 05:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

No, there was a reason why Dean didn't win the nomination, and it had little to do with issues or his stances.

He is simply not a good campaigner.

Edwards might have faired better, as he was a lot better on the stump but I doubt it, he had trouble convincing people that he wasn't too inexperienced.

Kerry wasn't the best on the stump, but he came awfully close to winning. I fail to see how Dean or '04 Edwards would have rivaled that.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

45% of people associate themselves with a candidate rather than issues.  Kerry wasn't that cool of a guy.  He was boring and dull for the most part.  If you went to the bar, who would you rather have a drink with?  Kerry or Bush?  Bush definitely won when it came down to that in the eyes of Americans.  

I don't think Dean or Edwards would have fallen victim to that factor.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

See, this is the one I don't understand. Why would you want to drink with an alcoholic or an evangelical Christian? Neither of them exactly make for a fantastic night at the bar.
Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

But you could imagine yourself going to a Texas ranch barbecue or a hoe-down over a ... I don't even know what you'd do with Kerry.  Ketchup?  I don't know how to make a party out of that, but that's probably part of the party.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that (none / 0)

So what does it say that both Edwards and Dean lost to "Ketchup with Kerry"?

He won 48% against an incumbant. That's a reasonable result. His weakness as a Campaigner was that he didn't win, while he could have

(And for us here also should have.)

Dean lost that 45% group even more then Kerry did, and '04 Edwards had a good slice of that 45% but lost big in the even bigger group of 55% that doesn't go for personality.

I doubt that either of them could've showed that they could have won, let alone actually do it.

Edwards learned from that for '08. He's very heavy on the substance this time. He improved enourmously. I'm far more impressed with him this time then I was in last time around.

But in '04 Kerry was the best we had, and he only lost by a hair. unfortuneatly, that all it takes to lose it all.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:46:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My choice is still (none / 0)

Edwards!

I am thrilled that the Democartic candidates are polling well against the Republicans. It is just plain old great news.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:04:45 AM EST

Re: My choice is still (none / 0)

I saw this poll and saw that all of our three candidates beat the republicans which is good.

I looked at the internals of this poll and found this:

Democrats 36 %
Independents 35%
Republicans 22%

This is just not accurate. Most polls are showing a 5-6.5%  difference between Dem's and Republicans not 14% LIKE THIS POLL. When I see things like this, I tend to dis-credit the entire poll.

I want us to win, but I have to call out bull shit polls when I see them even if they favor us.


by BDM on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My choice is still (none / 0)

Are you sure 36D-22R-35I is the correct split?  Because that only comes out to 93%, and the sum of those numbers always comes out to 99% or 100%.

So add 6 or 7% to the Repub voter base and we get 28-29% of the sample as Repub...when you do that, it is closer in line with Rasmussen's voter ID polls (38D-31R-31I right now)


by dpinzow on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My choice is still (none / 0)

I ooked at their poll and the internal's and that is what they say. 22 percent Republican. It is possible that their could be a category where people don;t identify as Repub;s, dems, or independents.


by BDM on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My choice is still (none / 0)

Rasmussen's latest ID:  

36.5 d
31  r
32,4 i


by BDM on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

What interests me here is how weak Romney is. A lot of that is probably name recognition, but even so, he's at 25% against Obama and Edwards and 35% against Clinton. That's doing worse than 'generic republican'.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:18:53 AM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

a couple of observations....

Romney would be far stronger than he appears.... most voters know nothing about him, and because this poll includes "leaners" what we are really looking at in Romney's numbers are the negative numbers of the Democratic candidates.

Obama will be significantly weaker than he appears.   Everyone has heard of him, and his press so far has been overwhelmingly positive.  Because this poll includes leaners, you doubtless have a very strong "Bradley effect" with Obama.

Hillary will be a much stronger candidate than she appears to be now.   Voters don't really KNOW her as a candidate, and the contrast between the real Hillary and the "dragon lady" image that has been foisted on her will be so striking that quite a few "anyone but Hillary" voters will change their minds.


by plukasiak on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:41:15 AM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

McCain and Guiliani are currently highly overvaluated in the polls as well. Both are likely to implode. Romney would have a surprising show of strenght compared to them when nominated.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

plukasiak, you said:

"Obama will be significantly weaker than he appears.   Everyone has heard of him, and his press so far has been overwhelmingly positive.  Because this poll includes leaners, you doubtless have a very strong "Bradley effect" with Obama."

This statement doesn't make any sense to me.  Are you talking about in the primary or the general?  

1) Obama strength with indies will make him stronger in the fall.

2) "Everyone has heard of him."  An amazing number of people I run into wearing my Obama button know almost nothing about him.  

3)"overwhelmingly positive press":  He has had a lot of press scrutiny already, and a number of little "scandal of the day" type stories which look like opposition plants.  Trust me if HRC has some major dirt she would be flinging it.  She needs to beat back his challenge now.  If he pulls ahead of her in the polls, I think she is toast.


by upper left on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

If anyone pulls ahead of the competition in a majority of state polls and clears the most delegates, the competition is "toast," although perhaps still in the running for a VP post or cabinet position.  


by georgep on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

Early polling is never right.  You're in it for the long run.  Everyone expects to be the guy who comes up towards the end and wins it all.  Except Hillary, she has to fight off the competition.  However, history isn't on her side.  Most of the primaries lie in the early states, after that it's all over.  Polling doesn't mean jack after the first couple of primaries are over.  What does matter after the first primaries are, 1. Can you still win?  2. If you can, how do you?

But until those first few states are done, all the polls are going to change.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

I dis-agree if the numbers are soft and these numbers are soft. Kerry was not ahead in most state polls in 2004 until after he won IA and NH

WHO EVER WINS THESE TWO STATES WILL SLINGSHOT TO THE LEAD IN MOST OF THE OTHER STATES.

This is due to the massive amount of plublicity from all of the news media and the perception of a winner. The front loading of the primary season inflates the importance of IA and NH.


by BDM on Sun May 06, 2007 at 05:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

WHO EVER WINS THESE TWO STATES WILL SLINGSHOT TO THE LEAD IN MOST OF THE OTHER STATES.

Actually it's more like,

WHO EVER OUTPERFORMS EXPECTATIONS THE MOST IN THESE TWO STATES WILL GAIN ABOUT A 10% BOOST THAT'S LIKELY ENOUGH TO START LEADING IN MOST OF THE OTHER STATES.

If you look at the actual data, the importance of IA and NH have been enormously inflated in '04 media narrative. Before '04 most people who won those states didn't go on to win the nomination. Only if all the stars are right a domino effect like '04 can happen. In fact frontloading might prevent that domino effect.

If a major candidate "wins" he or she would simply gain the free press that he/she could have bought as well. Media saturation would prevent further growth if the other candidates have enough money to saturate as well. (and they have enough money)

The only thing you can be sure of is that an election is never a replay of last time. Even if some of the participant are the same.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

Hillary will be the Dem nominee and she will beat the crap out of Rudy (who I believe will be the Repub nominee). If you check out the betting sites, that is where most of the money is being placed -- Hillary vs Rudy with Hillary the victor.
by samueldem on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:28:24 AM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

Most candidates win by raising the most.  Hillary took the low end for expectations while Obama broke his.  The odds could be changing soon.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:15:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

The fundraising is already old news there as well. You can count on it that it's already been taken into account.

In fact intrade has first Clinton then Obama as more likely to win the presidency before Giuliani. He only takes 3rd place as winning individual.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:28:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

There's still 9 months man.  If the primaries were today, Clinton would win it.  By fundraising, we'll hear July 1-5, October 1-5, and January 1-5, changing up the odds every time.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:29:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

Oh, yeah, and Obama has been climbing like mad. He definitely has the momentum on the betting sites.

It was just that your previous comment made me think you meant that the betting percentages weren't up to the current numbers.

Small point about fundraising. It's reliability is actually quite a lot less then polls and betting sites. Especially on the Democratic side. And the dynamic of donating is very different this time around so who knows? .


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:19:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

The betting sites screwed up with regard to 2006. They aren't predictors of anything except conventional wisdom, which doesn't always have that much of a connection to reality.
Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong (none / 0)

Actually I might remember it wrong, but didn't they predicted a solid house victory, and a close senate?

You do have to know how to read them. we had two almost 50%/50% wins that needed to win. that makes a rough chance of 25% on a betting site. An extremely small number that still indicates a very close race.

The house number with way more competetive races did resemble a more traditional poll number.

Even if they aren't much more then predictors of  conventional wisdom, their actual track record beats pundits and stand alone polls. They do about equal to the trendline of polling averages in prediction results on average.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Damn, I remember when they were trailing or tied with Giuliani, now they are ahead or tied? I'm all for that.


by MNPundit on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:06:09 PM EST

I think Newsweeks 51-39 Hillary over Obama poll (none / 0)

In a national race is interesting, among those numbers I'd bet Obama was doing much bettor among the people paying attention this early just like in the NBC WSJ poll, I think Hillary's poor general election and favorabilty nubers are going to get much more attention than they are now if they don't improve by the end of the year, already I'm starting to hear the I like Hillary and I want a women president but she can't win .....Obama needs to subtly make that point just as Kerry did in 2004, in the debate Hillary attributed her negative numbers to  "Republicans hate me because I'm so effective" the problem with that is even if people agree with her that still means she would be a bad nominee. Also if Ralph Nader states he would run only against Hillary but would take a pass if the dems nominate Edwards or Obama,that will be a factor as well.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:36:23 PM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

Figures that the only losing race now is Giuliani over Clinton. What a freaky campaign that would be. They will both burn out by October. I think we'll see Gore v. Romney...Romney is so slick.


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens, etc., etc...." -M.Meade "I, on the other hand, am not so sanguine." -ezdidit
by ezdidit on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:30:01 PM EST

Re: 2008 Dems Hold Strong in Nationwide Head-to-He (none / 0)

And Hillary TIES against McCain!!!???


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens, etc., etc...." -M.Meade "I, on the other hand, am not so sanguine." -ezdidit
by ezdidit on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:31:13 PM EST

hillary's electability problem (none / 0)

I find Hillary's poor numbers against republicans fascinating.  She would very likely lose, in an election that should be a piece of cake for Obama or Edwards.  This is a heavy argument against her candicacy.  Why aren't people making a bigger deal out of this?


by grimm on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:16:24 PM EST

Re: hillary's electability problem (none / 0)

I think Clinton has the best chance of winning the general election, Edwards has second best chance, and Obama has third best chance. The SUSA State polls show Obama polls far below Clinton and Edwards in some blue states which would be in danger of turning red.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:16:22 AM EST
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