Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edwards respectable in SC

The polls

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/

May 29, 2007 - Presidential Preferences

Democrats IA NH SC

Biden 3% 3% 2%
Clark 1% 1% 1%
Clinton 31% 34% 34%
Dodd 2% 3% 1%
Edwards 25% 18% 30%
Gravel 1% 1% -
Kucinich 4% 2% 2%
Obama 11% 15% 18%
Richardson 8% 9% 1%
Undecided 14% 14% 11%

ARG trendlines

Iowa

Likely Democratic Caucus Goers Dec 2006 Jan 2007 Feb 2007 Mar 2007 Apr 2007 May 2007

Biden 2% 2% 2% 2% 6% 3%
Clark 1% 2% 1% 2% - 1%
Clinton 31% 35% 31% 34% 23% 31%
Dodd 2% 1% 1% 1% 2% 2%
Edwards 20% 18% 27% 33% 27% 25%
Gravel 1% - - - - 1%
Kerry 2% ni ni ni ni ni
Kucinich 5% 2% 1% 1% 2% 4%
Obama 10% 14% 23% 16% 19% 11%
Richardson 1% 1% 1% 1% 5% 8%
Vilsack 17% 12% ni ni ni ni
Undecided 8% 13% 14% 10% 16% 14%

New Hampshire

Likely Democratic Primary Voters Dec 2006 Jan 2007 Feb 2007 Mar 2007 Apr 2007 May 2007

Biden 1% 1% 1% 2% 2% 3%
Clark 2% 2% 2% 1% - 1%
Clinton 27% 39% 38% 37% 37% 34%
Dodd 1% 1% 1% 1% 1% 3%
Edwards 18% 13% 19% 20% 26% 18%
Gravel - - - - - 1%
Kerry 6% ni ni ni ni ni
Kucinich 4% 1% 1% 1% 2% 2%
Obama 21% 19% 20% 23% 14% 15%
Richardson 2% 2% 2% 2% 3% 9%
Vilsack 1% 1% ni ni ni ni
Undecided 17% 21% 16% 12% 15% 14%

South Carolina

Likely Democratic Primary Voters Dec 2006 Feb 2007 Apr 2007 May 2007

Biden 2% 2% 3% 2%
Clark 2% 1% 1% 1%
Clinton 34% 36% 36% 34%
Dodd - 1% 1% 1%
Edwards 31% 20% 18% 30%
Gravel - - - -
Kerry 3% ni ni ni
Kucinich 2% 1% 3% 2%
Obama 10% 25% 24% 18%
Richardson 1% 1% 1% 1%
Vilsack - ni ni ni
Undecided 15% 14% 13% 11%

ARG's short analysis

Women likely primary voters/caucus goers continue to give Hillary Clinton the edge in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina.

My analysis

With this poll the Iowa race tightens even more.  Now in the aggregate Edwards leads by only 3%, obviously a rapidly shrinking advantage over Clinton.  This latest Iowa poll represents a turnaround of a full 10% in favor of Clinton, resulting in her 6% lead in this poll.  

She also does very well in New Hampshire here.  While she remains basically constant at 34%, Edwards ends up losing  support in NH with his numbers shrinking by 8%.  That ends up padding Clinton's NH margin to 16% over Edwards.  

In South Carolina this poll sees Edwards coming on quite strong.  Clinton leads with 34%, but Edwards is close on her trail here with 30%.  

Barack Obama trails both Clinton and Edwards in all 3 states with rather disappointing numbers.  In Iowa he gets 11%, in New Hampshire he gets 15%, South Carolina sees him with only 18% support.  

Dark horse candidate Richardson does surprisingly well in IA and New Hampshire, pulling in 8% in Iowa, 9% in New Hampshire, only 1% in South Carolina.

The Republican candidates Republicans IA NH SC Brownback 3% 1% 1%
Gilmore 1% - 1%
Giuliani 23% 21% 23%
Gingrich 8% 4% 6%
Hagel 2% 1% 1%
Huckabee 2% 1% 1%
Hunter - - -
McCain 25% 30% 32%
Pataki - - -
Paul - - -
Romney 16% 23% 10%
Tancredo 2% - 1%
F Thompson 6% 3% 13%
T Thompson 2% 1% 1%
Undecided 10% 16% 11%

Analysis of Republican candidate's showing McCain is coming on very strong in this poll trifecta. He leads in all 3 states. Romney has a good showing in New Hampshire, where he is now second to McCain, 7 points behind. Giuliani comes in third in this poll. Giuliani is second in IA and SC at this point. F. Thompson is not doing as well in IA and NH, pulling in only 6% in IA and 3% in NH, although he gets 13% support in SC.



Display:


Re: Latest polls (3.00 / 1)

wow..This poll contradicts basicly every single poll i have seen..Did the race shift that vilently over the past week or so??..Obama in the low teens in Iowa???..Obama in third place in SC??..Obama way behind in NH??....Not a chance..I will say this poll is an out of wack.


by JaeHood on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:25:52 PM EST

Re: Latest polls (none / 0)

It is actually possible that last week's Strategic Vision poll showing Clinton with 16% in Iowa was out of whack.  That was a low that we have not seen in any other poll.  This Iowa poll is more in line with the other Iowa poll we had seen come out of Iowa last weeks (from Research 2000):

http://www.kcci.com/download/2007/0517/1 3341581.pdf

It showed very similar numbers, except for Obama's numbers being a bit better.


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls (3.00 / 1)

demoines register knows how to poll the state, how much money is the Hillary campaign paying pollsters and maybe posters to spread thier "inevitabilty" campaign.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nevadadem wrote: (none / 0)

"demoines register knows how to poll the state, how much money is the Hillary campaign paying pollsters and maybe posters to spread thier "inevitabilty" campaign."
______

ha ha ha.  Sour grapes nevadadem


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls (none / 0)

"how much money is the Hillary campaign paying pollsters and maybe posters to spread thier "inevitabilty" campaign."

Hey, don't freak out, man.  This is just weird  stuff that makes no sense.  Chill.  Or continue to look a certain way.  Your choice.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls (none / 0)

We'll have to watch how much money she burns in Q2.  That will tell us.  ;-)


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So, is the Des Moines Register (3.00 / 1)

out of whack, which is the polling that is most accurate and revered in Iowa, wrong with Clinton 3rd?  George, these numbers do not add up.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls (none / 0)

31% in Iowa is still well out of reach of 2, maybe 3 of the polls from last round of Iowa polls when we had four hit around the same time.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, it does not contradict ARG ... (3.00 / 1)

... the different polls may well have different screens. ARG has likely voters / caucus goers, not registers voters, so how they screen for likely voters / caucus goers will result in different numbers.

On Iowa, I think the Des Moines Register has a good record on screening for likely caucus attenders, so I'd put more weight on their poll. NH and SC are primaries, and primaries with a bit of a tradition of going early and being decisive ... NH for Democrats, SC for Republicans ... so perhaps ARG's likely voter screen should be given more weight in NH and SC.

I'd like to see the rural / urban cross tabs in SC, since the main SC event on the Edwards front since the previous ARG poll was the launch of his rural economic recovery program in rural SC.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, going to the wikipedia entry ... (none / 0)

... that Chris Bowers recommends, its interesting to note that prior to this poll, 80% of ARG's polls had Hillary leading in Iowa, and 7% of everyone else's polls had Hillary leading in Iowa.

So ARG's likely caucus attender screen seems to be particularly favorable to Hillary in Iowa.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton (none / 0)

Looks like all of these states are in flux. Edwards dwindling support in Iowa worries me, but it's nice to finally see some support in SC (I was waiting for that!).
I hope someone can catch up to Hillary in NH -  I don't even care who!

www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:28:17 PM EST

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton (none / 0)

Rec'd for following the Poll Diary guidelines :)


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton (none / 0)

This poll is an outlier. I will not believe these poll's  un-less I see other polls supporting it from other pollsters.

Their is no way that Obama IS AT 14 and 15% IN NH. This is the only poll showing that percentage in both April and May.

The question is what has been ARG'S past record for the IA  Caucuses? I believe they are polling with a very loose screen for the caucus.

The question is what percentage of democrats are they using for these polls. If IT IS 40 % or more than it is not reliable. The caucus historically is maybe 25% OF registered democrats  AT MOST AND 30% of registered dem's for a primary.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

Your analysis doesn't explain why the numbers and trends are as they appear.
To me, it looks like ARG is just back to their bogus polling when they were the only ones showing Hillary ahead in Iowa before.  I mean, does anyone remember seeing a SC poll in which Edwards was anywhere near 30%?  Unfortunately, it doesn't look like ARG is giving us much of the internals.  But does anyone really believe that that's what SC looks like?
And Edward only has 21% among Iowa Democrats?  Whatever.
"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:33:56 PM EST

can't speak for NH and SC (3.00 / 1)

but these Iowa numbers look way off to me. I don't believe Clinton is ahead, and I don't believe Obama is that far back.

But hey, if she wants to raise expectations about winning Iowa, I guess more power to her.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: can't speak for NH and SC (none / 0)

This poll matches other polls we have seen recently.  Research 2000 showed a Clinton lead just last week, Zogby showed a very slim Edwards lead just a few days before that, which, considering the MoE could easily be flipped to a small Clinton lead.  All 3 polls show Obama in third and Richardson coming on fairly strong.  

This poll is consistent with two other Iowa polls we have seen come out in the last 10 days.


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: can't speak for NH and SC (3.00 / 1)

And completely inconsistent with every credible Iowa poll we've seen.  So you're really going to believe a Research 2000 poll with a sample of less than 200 Democrats (which showed Edwards doing better among men than women, and Obama better among women than men, which are the opposite of what I've seen in basically every other poll)?

And the SC and NH results are inconsistent, not to mention how erratic their "trend" is, in which there really is no trend.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: can't speak for NH and SC (none / 0)

See below:  You are actually going to believe a poll that shows Clinton in third, far behind Edwards, something NO OTHER POLL has shown?  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: can't speak for NH and SC (none / 0)

georgep, see below, you are wrong.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: can't speak for NH and SC (3.00 / 1)

I guess you can look at polls any way. But the Desmoines register poll showed Edwards up by 8 pts over Clinton.

The question is which is the outlier.I would put my money on the Desmoines register poll because of it's past record.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

You know, I did not argue about the Desmoines Register poll which was touted here like "the second coming."  To me it was just another poll to add to the averages, which is really what counts.   That poll actually looked like an outlier, showing something that NO OTHER POLL post-debate showed, namely Clinton in third position in Iowa.  Yet, it is just accepted as "right" instead of questioned, without ANY other poll confirming the numbers or rankings.  

     


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

Actually, three polls in the last couple months have shown Hillary in second.  The last two strategic vision polls showed Barack in 2nd as well.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

You are right, SV showed Clinton with a ridiculously low 16%.  Of course, that can't be considered an outlier for some odd reason.  

Bottom line is that Edwards lead has shrunk to 3% in Iowa.  This has nothing to do with this ONE poll, has been a trend that has been happening over the last 2 weeks.  You CAN'T just go with the polls you personally like, that show results you agree with.   What would stop others then from excluding, say, the 2 Strategic Vision polls (a partisan Republican polling outfit) as outliers, thereby arriving actually at an exact tie or a small Clinton lead in the aggregate?


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

I can understand how being a "Republican" polling firm might play into their results for a general election, but I don't see how it affects their results for this Democratic primary.  This sounds like your and rob's ideas about Rasmussen, whose results ended up being weird because of how they weight independents, not because they are Republicans.

ARG, on the other hand, has put out a lot of outliers, particularly in Iowa, in this race.  For months they were the only firm saying that Hillary was ahead.  Then they started coming into line with other polls recently, but now they're going nuts again.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

"Then they started coming into line with other polls recently, but now they're going nuts again."

That is your interpretation, which you are entitled to.  But we have seen the numbers tighten up for a reason.  What you call "nuts" is very similar to what R2000 and Zogby showed within the last 10 days.  By your measure the SV poll can be considered "nuts," with it showing Clinton at 16%.  

Are you saying that the polls in Iowa have not tightened up at all, then?  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

Not by much.  I'm not keen on Zogby, and the Research 2000 poll is bullshit, and ARG keeps putting out outliers (unless everyone else was wrong about Iowa for months except ARG).  Why would you believe that an obvious poorly done outlier like R2000 and a firm that keeps putting out outliers for Iowa like ARG would now be the ones most accurately reflecting movement in Iowa?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

Then the only two polls you can point to are the DMR poll and the Strategic Vision poll.  SV showed Clinton at 16%, a ridiculously low percentage that makes no sense.  Why would THAT not be the outlier, then?   And, the DMR used the same ultra-low sample of 200 that you bemoan with the Research 2000 poll.   How can the low sample be a problem in one poll, but not a problem in another?  

That is why you go with aggregates.   Take the polls you like with the polls you don't, and you have the most accurate read.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

I didn't read that about the Register poll, link please?  They said they had a sample of 400 likely Dem. caucus goers.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

I just checked, and they had a sample of 400.

Still, the point stands:  How is that poll the be-all?  No poll is.  They can all be off by 5% either way.  You go with the aggregates because of that.  And, SV showing 16% for Clinton makes sense to you, given all the other polling you have seen?     Also, Zogby shows Clinton doing well in Iowa, and they did so previously.    


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

I don't hold up the Register poll as the gold standard for Iowa, but I wouldn't hold up Zogby as any standard.  Zogby has disappointed me too many times in the past to believe them, regardless of their methodology.

I have to combine polls with desmoinesdem's on the ground reports, as well as the memo from one of Clinton's staff that suggested they pull out.  I don't see Hillary doing well there.  

BTW, how many ARG polls have shown Edwards ahead in Iowa, of all the Iowa polls they've done?  One?  Two?  I don't know, but i remember so many with Hillary leading when everyone else showed Edwards ahead.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

Well, with polls knotting up to a virtual tie, perhaps they knew something others didn't?   :-)


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

Lol!


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

IMO, the "ground reports" are highly suspect due to understandable bias.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

Anecdotes are always understood to be potentally very unrepresentative, but desmoinesdem's reports are likely pretty accurate for her precinct, at least.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (3.00 / 1)

The Desmoines Register poll is known all over IA and was on the MSM. I bet you will not see this ARG in all of the newspapers in IA or quoted in the MSM


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

And also shows her in third in one poll


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

Just my theory -- but I thing Edwards has levelled off in Iowa.  He's been working that state for a long time, running ads, mailing 85,000 DVD's, etc. etc.  Iowans know him well and many like him and support him.  But until two and a half weeks ago, Hillary had not focused "heavily" on Iowa.  That has changed.  Two weeks ago, she opened ten or 12 Iowa field offices and I heard (no link because a friend in Iowa told me), that volunteers were lining up to help at all the new field offices.

Don't discount the Vilsacks, especially Christie who knows Iowa women very well.

Hillary's got it going on.  Yahoooo!!!


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, (none / 0)

I look at it this way. Edwards has been campaigning in Iowa since 2001. That is a total of 6 years. In just a few months Clinton and Obama have shrunk his lead down to nothing.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Obama down (3.00 / 1)

I look at the trendlines and see a whole lot of volatility, even in the undecideds.  That leads me to think that these polls are just not passing the smell-test.


Help build a stronger and more progressive Democratic Party from the grassroots on up
by Peter from WI on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:34:24 PM EST

Re: Bogus poll (3.00 / 1)

Those polls looks fishy...Edwards doing that terribly in Iowa????...I would like to see some data on the south coralina poll because i just can't believe Obama is doing so badly there, specially when you have 50% of the electaroate being black in SC...Does Edwards overtake Obama in black votes??...


by JaeHood on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unfortunately... (none / 0)

ARG doesn't provide a breakdown, except by Dem/Ind primary voting.  So we have no idea if they undercounted black votes in SC, or if their caucus model in Iowa is anywhere near correct.


by rashomon on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

Hillary is the right woman, and the only woman, to break that glass ceiling in this, the 21st century.  And she is damned determined to do it.

Go Hillary!!  Don't let anyone or anything stop you now.  


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:00:24 PM EST

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

Oh god. That's such b.s. Explain exactly how a voting record can show a record of following. She absolutely does not have to follow Obama. She's served for 6 years (as well as had 8 years' executive experience in the White House) and he's served for one third of one term.

As for making her own decision on how to vote on the Iraq supplemental, once again you are mistaken. She apparently had made enough of a decision to vote and release a clearly worded statement about it on top of rededicating herself to deauthorizing the war.

Sunsetting the authorization is infinitely a better solution to ending the war than trying to cut off funds since it makes the responsibility for proving continued involvement's worth incumbent upon the president. So while you have clearly already made up your mind on other people's talking points, I find it rather elucidating that conveniently forget her leadership with Senator Byrd.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

The two books coming out this month gives a not very good portrait of Hillary and Bill. If you are claiming his record, then you also have to take the bad that comes with it.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

"The two books coming out this month gives a not very good portrait of Hillary and Bill. If you are claiming his record, then you also have to take the bad that comes with it." (BDM)
_________

You're really counting on those two books to do some damage huh BDM?  From what I can see, it isn't going to happen, other than maybe some stupid embarrassing questions that will be thrown in Hillary's face for a few weeks.  Her campaign team is all over this and has already begun to effectively "debunk" the books and their authors.

Sorry Arianna Huffington!

A few Dems like yourself, and a few true rightwing whackaloons are hoping those books will damage Hillary's candidacy, but other than that, the rest of the country either doesn't give a damn or they are being very protective of Hillary, who in case you hadn't noticed, has been attacked far more than she ever deserved.  


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

1) Have you read them?
2) Were you aware that one of them was written by Jeff Gerth who was responsibly for the wrong reporting that lead to the Whitewater scandal (which has been completely debunked to the consternation of Kenneth Starr & friends)?

Many terrible things have been said about Hillary. One need only look at anything Arianna Huffington has written both as a Republican and as a self-proclaimed progressive. The facts still remain that the majority of Democrats favor her both for her intelligence, her insight, and her stature around the world. I highly doubt a Carl Bernstein book and another debunked book by Jeff Gerth will change that much. Though, I have no illusions that whatever perceived negatives in the books will come out in full force and almost no one will focus on the positives. She'll press on as strongly as ever.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:19:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

I don't think the books will effect much of anything. Renewed talk about Bills zipper problem will annoy me however.


by Quinton on Wed May 30, 2007 at 01:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, (none / 0)

"She could not even come up with her own health plan" (rssrai)

Are you serious?  Have you seen the video of her speech this past Thursday?  It's on her website.

Oh gee, here is the link.  

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/31.a spx

It's edited for brevity but touches on the main proposals.  You can't watch that video without realizing who the expert on healthcare is.  She understands exactly what is wrong with the system and she has all the research, facts and figures to back it up.

Now this healthcare proposal(s) is part of her 21st Century Domestic Agenda.  Here is the link:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/

You may never like Hillary or want her to be the nominee but at least try to be informed.

Do you only follow one candidate, ie: the one you like?


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

arg is a fraud polling outfit (none / 0)

they have the worst record in the industry bar nore,they areprobably beingpaid off by the Hillary machine.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:04:02 PM EST

Re: arg is a fraud polling outfit (none / 0)

LOL.   Now THAT makes a ton of sense.    

WOW.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: arg is a fraud polling outfit (none / 0)

Earth to nevadadem

Earth to nevadadem


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: arg is a fraud polling outfit (none / 0)

now earth to you,according to ARG every other polling firm  has both sides of the race 20 points off,McCain is 3rd in all other polls expept thiers where he's winning easily,I know what the Hillary campaign is doing on these forums, it's obvious so stop it already.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: arg is a fraud polling outfit (none / 0)

No one is doing anything. It is the reality that voters decide who they want to vote for. For months now some of us have been pointing out that support for Clinton was solidifying while support for Obama was soft. Some of that soft support is now shifting from Obama to Clinton and Edwards in multiple states.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

That is an implosion for Obama in Iowa. He had already started doing poorly in NH in some previous polls. If he finishes third in the first three he will likely be out. Edwards would need to win at least 1 of the 3 to stay in as well.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:05:04 PM EST

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

it's not an "implosion" it's a fraudulant poll from  a fraudulant polling firm, lookat thier Republican numbers, being used spin a meme from Hillary astroturf bloggers on sites like these,
the well-respected Iowa papers poll shows Hillary falling apart inthe state something Hillary's own campaign must know hense the memo.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:28:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

ARG is a well known polling firm. They had some of the best polls during the 2004 presidential campaign. Obama has dropped in other polls besides those from ARG.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Show ME A URL site for me to examine their record.

All I saw was in the final poll for 2004. They had the race tied at 49to 49. They had one of the worst records for the 2004 race.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

They had daily tracking polls in the early states which were quite good. It showed the movement as momentum changed.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

yeah quit Iowa ---- so  should Romney according to this shit poll, forget he's winning all the other polls, ARG is a fraud.


Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is yesterdays news (none / 0)

He had his moment in the sun back in February when he had the fawmning press coverage.  Now he just another candidate.  Edwards is fighting harder.  Clinton us running smarter.  And guys like Dodd and Richardson are crowding in for some ink and face time on tv as well.


by dpANDREWS on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is yesterdays news (none / 0)

Richardson has some momentum now. I think Dodd will be the next to start showing some momentum. Dodd is running an impressive campaign and there are signs people are paying some attention to what he is saying. Both of those take away from Obama and to some extent from Edwards.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

I would guess it is too late for Obama to write off Iowa. That would probably cause too much damage since he is not leading in any of the states afterwards.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The only poll that I remotely believe, (3.00 / 1)

is the Des Moines Register Poll.  This ARG polling is all over the place, and no way is Clinton beating Edwards in Iowa.  And no way is Obama pulling, what, 11%??  This polling is way off.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:40:42 PM EST

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

look at thier republican numbers, they are even further off all other pollsters than  they are with the dems polling, honestly I think they are a fraud, incompetent or being paid off to create
false perceptions of the race, every Iowa poll recently showed momentum and numbers on both sides of the aisle to be exactly the opposite of what they see.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

Clinton has a strong lead in NH, and that is true when seen over ALL post-debate polls.  Hence, her double-digit lead there in the aggregates.  

Edwards lead in Iowa has shrunk.  It has been something that has been obvious over the last 2 weeks, and is true even with the DR poll and the Survey USA polls (which could well be outliers) included.   Hence, the current aggregate of a 3% Edwards lead, which is the result of ALL polls being included.  

In SC Edwards is coming on strong, and Clinton holds only a 4% lead, which is not massive by any means.   SC is Edwards' birthstate and neighbors NC, where he hails from.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (3.00 / 1)

Do you really believe that Obama is polling only 11% IN SC and is in third place for the African American vote?


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

What I have been saying for a long time has been that some of the other questions in the polls are indicators of things to come. Various polls that have shown that voters see Clinton strongest on leadership and issues show how solid her support is. Obama has fared poorly on those types of questions and we are now starting to see the support shift. Clinton is ahead in every demographic group including African American voters.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

He may have fallen some in SC.  It may not be as low as 11%, but with the MoE it could be 15% or 16%.  Polls are snapshots of a certain timeframe.  Go with the aggregates.  

You guys easily believe polls that show numbers you agree with (like the very fist-ever Florida poll Datamar just came out with, which was entirely "plausible", of course) and bash every poll you don't like.  

Chris Bowers asked us clearly to use ALL polls, not just the ones you like or that make your favorite candidate look better.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:12:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

I questioned the datamar FL poll and I also question these IA numbers and those coming from Zogby. I find the DMR much more likely to be the case and they have a great record of polling the caucus and they're local. If the SC numbers in this poll are to be believed then something earth shattering has happened in SC and I just don't see it.

How would that work exactly? Richardson pulled support from just Obama? Edwards gained a lot of black support very quickly? I don't know. I'm trying to work out how with an universe that should be 50% black how the numbers work. Let's say that Edwards picked up all or much of Obama and Hillarys white vote and increased his black vote share and Richardson took votes just from Obama and they were black votes. Those numbers could work, but it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me right now. Richardson should be taking more support from Hillary than from Obama. Perhaps Obama is losing anti-war supporters over to Richardson as they think his position is better? But why all of a sudden without a big push to take Obama on on the issue. I really wish they'd release the cross-tabs so we could see what's happened and if it even remotely makes sense.


by Quinton on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:10:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only poll that I remotely believe, (none / 0)

The thing to do is to go with the aggregate of ALL polls.  That is your safest way.  Otherwise you cherrypick polls by merely taking the ones you like and dismissing the ones you don't.  The DMR poll could be completely off, for all we know.  Polls are never exact sciences (see also Rasmussen having a good record in 2004, not so good in 2006, horrible in 2000, Zogby shining in 1996, doing not so good in 2004, very good again in 2006, etc.)   Also, the Strategic Vision poll looks like a complete outlier.  16% for Clinton is something not a single other poll has shown.  Should I therefore dismiss their result and omit both Strategic Vision polls from the aggregate, thereby creating a more favorable picture for the candidate I like?  

Do as you wish, I take the good with the bad polls and go with the aggregate.  In my opinion that is the only way to go.  


by georgep on Wed May 30, 2007 at 10:13:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton just rolls on (none / 0)

All the harping and the negativity form the fringes of the party haven't bothered her much.  She just keeps grinding everyday.


by dpANDREWS on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:58:14 PM EST

Re: Clinton just rolls on (none / 0)

The impression I continue to get as I read the blogs is that the anti-Hillary folks react as though Hillary is sitting on a sofa somewhere eating bon bons and watching the soaps while she waits for someone to bring her the keys to the Oval Office.  Those who actually follow her campaign closely, and I really do, realize she has a strong base - a really strong base almost right across the country and she is a relentless campaigner with a campaign team that is second to none.  

Yes, Iowa has been John Edwards' territory for a very long time but he was the only Dem campaigning there.  Now things have changed.  Hillary's Iowa operation is up and running and Hillary has two back to back weekends of campaigning there coming up, after spending this long weekend there as well.  This weekend, she told one audience in Iowa "I will be spending so much time in Iowa over the next few months that I will be able to caucus for myself."  And she means it.  She is not going to cede Iowa to Edwards.  He might still win Iowa but he's got a tremendous battle on his hands.

Hillary has institutional support that, if I were to list all the names, there wouldn't be room in this text box and it just keeps coming in.  

Women are playing a major role in her campaign and in her polling numbers.  I also think Hillary is going to get some union backing.  It's too early to know for sure, but she, and especially Bill Clinton, are respected by the unions.  Of course, this is also John Edwards territory and he is hoping for union endorsements and he might outdo Hillary on that one.  It's just not a given for him.  


by samueldem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your commentary is excellent (none / 0)

Right on the mark.  Hillary knows what it takes to win.  It takes more than a good speech.  It takes hard work.


by dpANDREWS on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

RealClearPolitics Averages (none / 0)

Average of recent polls. National Clinton +11.0 Iowa Edwards +3.0 New Hampshire Clinton +12.3 South Carolina Clinton +5.8 Florida Clinton +18.2
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:09:27 PM EST

I will say this (none / 0)

I  would rather have 6000 people showing in Northern New Hampshire to hear me speak 7 months before anyone votes then good NH polling numbers from ARG, there seems to be a bit of disconnect with the Hillary supporters and polling, some firmsseem to do a better job picking up what's going on than others, the DM register poll and the other NH poll that showed Obama close seem  to be closer to reality to me but Ican't prove it, in addition there is the whole cell-phone thing with Obama supporters but so be it. The one thing I do wonder is why Hillary never has any outdoor rallies like Obama, if theresall this exitement about Hillary out there how come these
"fervent supporters" don't show up?
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:11:28 PM EST

Re: I will say this (3.00 / 1)

Large rallies do not translate into votes we saw that with Dean in 2004.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I will say this (none / 0)

In NH large rallies are detrimental to the retail politics one must engage in in that state.  She had some big crowds of 7,000, 5,000, but in NH that is the last thing you want to do.  Small townhall settings are what moves folks from soft support into the strong support column.

I also have yet to see a report in which DEMOCRATS voiced disappointment with Clinton when she speaks to Democratic issue groups, but I have seen that sentiment expressed numerous times from Democrats when Obama speaks to rank-and-file Democrats.  His crowd performance is decidedly mixed at this point.


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I will say this (none / 0)

If his support is falling he would not draw the large crowds that he is drawing. That novelty would have worn off by now.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is their likely voter? (3.00 / 1)

This is from ARG's site.

Question Wording:

Would you say that you definitely plan to participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus, that you might participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus, or that you will probably not participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus?

Is the likely voter only those that said they "definitely plan to participate" or the combination of "definitely plan" and "might participate"?  Because if it is both, that seems to be much too loose a likely voter screen for a caucus.  To attend a caucus it takes a lot more effort, time and courage to go through with it than simply going to a voting booth and voting as in a primary.

Unfortunately, ARG doesn't have a breakdown on the 600 "likely voters" and how many were "definitely plan" and how many were "might participate".  A caucus, and especially the Iowa caucus since it's the first, is notoriously hard to poll.  I think the best thing for all the candidates to do is to not pay too much attention to each of the polls this far out and keep plugging away.


A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy. - Teddy Roosevelt
by minvis on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:28:56 PM EST

Re: ARG breakdown (none / 0)

Does anyone knows why they arent providing us with the breakdown??...This poll looks so ridiculous that it makes you sick to your stomach.

The South Carolina poll is very extreme here..We all know that Obama and Hillary is battling for the black vote in SC and the fight is 50-50 right now, and the black vote is half of the democratic electorate in SC...If Obama is indeed polling so badly by polling 11% but receiving at least half of the black votes, he would have to poll around the 10% among white voters, and i just dont believe that..

I think Nevadadem is right, this poll has to be a huge fraud..I wont go say that the Hillary folks are paying them, but WOW, how can you even put out such BS results??..The guy that polled those states should be ashame of himself..He needs to check his data.

If i was him and got those results, i wouldnt release them to the public, and just revamp my polling data and re-poll.


by JaeHood on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ARG breakdown (none / 0)

Strange that you did not have this reaction when Strategic Vision showed Clinton pulling in only 16% in their Iowa poll, something no other poll duplicated or came even close to.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

the arg polls are obviously showing its' filters are incapable to accurately measure the democratic primary.  

Most important figures in this race

1.) Iowa-96% white-closed primary

2.) New Hampshire-98% white-open primary (independents can vote)

3.) Educated urban professional/surban home-owners vote the most

4.)Blacks & single women vote the least

CONCLUSIONS+PREDICTIONS

Iowa- Edwards will benefit greatly from non Hillary/Obama supporters who have to re-vote because Richardson/Biden/Kucinich/Dodd will not recieve 15% in most districts.

Finish 1.)Edwards 35-41% 2.)Clinton 25-29% 3.)Obama 23-27% 4.) Richardson 4-8%

New Hampshire- Hillary is currently in the lead due to regional influence being so close to New York. However, if Edwards wins Iowa he will gain the momentum needed to win the primary.

Finish 1.)Edwards 36-42% 2.)Clinton 23-27% 3.)Obama 18-23% 4.) Richardson 3-6% 5.) Dodd 1-3%
6.)Kucinich 1-3%


by Djneedle83 on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:44:37 PM EST

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

1. Caucus goers are made up to the tune of almost 60% of folks 55 and over.  Clinton is the strongest candidate in that age group, so the caucus system plays into her hands.

2. Richardson/Biden/Kucinich/Dodd support is NOT necessarily anti-Hillary support.  If their votes fall away and are subject to a revote many of the current Richardson/Biden/Dodd (not sure about Kucinich) will probably jump over to Clinton.


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (3.00 / 1)

I am from that part of the country and she is not very popular in IA. Most of the people over 55 have a strong ant-war fever and Clinton doesnot tie into that group.

I know when the Desmoines Register makes it's endorsement just before the Caucus this has tremendous influence. I know Hillary will not get their endorsement. They endorsed Edwards last time and he soared into second place.


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Perhaps.  We'll see.   She is doing VERY well with especially older voters in all the polls I have seen, so I believe your point has no merit, but things have definitely become very interesting in Iowa.  

In my mind, Edwards must win Iowa, he is the clear favorite in Iowa.  The expectations are through the roof for him there.  The big surprise is that polls are getting so tight there all of a sudden.  Clinton seems to be on the verge of passing him, and the offices she opened there are said to be very busy, buzzing with excitement.   Also, Vilsack is making a big impact.  But, even if she does not win Iowa but shows operational strength there, she'll be fine.   We'll see who the DMR supports, it could well be Clinton.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (3.00 / 1)

You are right in that support of a second tier candidate does not amount to anti-Clinton sentiment.  However, I have not seen anything to lead me to believe that any one candidate will have a distinct advantage of picking up caucus attendees whose preferred candidate does not meet the viability threshold.

Also, why do you think Clinton is the strongest candidate with Iowa Democrats over 55?  Looking at the makeup of the crowds at events I have been to, I am inclined to think Edwards has the strongest support in this group.


by Nate Willems on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

National polling shows her doing particularly well in the 65+ age group, by far her strongest age demogroup.  That also showed consistently in state polls which measured by demogroups.  

http://galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27676

Support for Clinton in 2008 Democratic Nomination
(Top Demographic Support Groups for Clinton)
Based on Gallup Surveys March -- May 2007

65+ years

Clinton 40
Obama  17
Gore 12
Edwards 16
Clinton's lead vs. Obama 23
Clinton's lead vs. Edwards 24

Seniors are basically the second-best demogroup Clinton has vs. Obama and the fourth-best demogroup vs. Edwards.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

We are talking about IA nOt national numbers. IA does not mirror the national numbers. If it did then Clinton would be up by double digits in IA


by BDM on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

We are talking about seniors here.  Nationally that is BY FAR her strongest age demogroup.  It makes sense that she does particularly well in that age group within her polling sample in Iowa as well.  Since seniors make up a very strong portion of caucus goers (60% of Iowa caucus goers are 55 or older) it would favor her.  

If you know of polling data that shows Edwards doing better with seniors than Clinton (in Iowa or any state) just show it.  


by georgep on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hold up (none / 0)

Like the previous poster stated, IA does not mirror those national trend, and ive seen Iowa polls suggesting that Edwards is winning this demographic that you're claiming Hillary is winning.

Like the previous guys said..If Hillary was winning this group, she'd be leading in Iowa by double digit, so i think you are 100% off the map on this.

Nationall poll does not equal to lead in Iowa and the Clintons knows that well...Iowa voters seems to be disregarding the national polls since Hillary is not setting their state on fire..She's stuck in third place right now and is losing steam..Her people wants her to skip Iowa because she just cant make any kind of meaningful connection with Iowa voters.


by JaeHood on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Hillary's lead is exagerated in those numbers because Gore is included. It scrambles things. Edwards tends to also do well amongst older voters.


by Quinton on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:13:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Actually, including Gore probably does more damage to Hillary's numbers than good. People nostalgic for the Clinton years would possibly have just as much interest in Gore as they would for Clinton. If anything, including Gore makes Hillary's numbers understated (that is, unless he actually does run).


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Clinton goes up a lot in polls where Gore is not included.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Wed May 30, 2007 at 01:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. Clinton leads, Edw (none / 0)

Edwards also does very well amongst older voters. Especially older rural voters.


by Quinton on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:12:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Latest polls in IA, NH, SC. (none / 0)

The likely voter model in the ARG polls comes up with very different numbers than most other polls... so either every other poll is wrong and ARG is right, or ARG is losing their credibility with each passing poll.  They need to revisit their LV model soon, these numbers are just plain ridiculous.


by yitbos96bb on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:04:21 AM EST


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