Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bill

There's so much going on it's hard to track all of it, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention John Edwards and his impressive speech today on the war on terror.  AJ at Americablog says what I think is about right.

The speech was perhaps most notable for what it did not include: absent was the reflexive bellicosity that conventional Democratic beltway wisdom has long insisted is necessary to project "strength" on foreign policy and national defense. There was no talk of "keeping all options on the table," no insistence that the Middle East only understands strength, and no blind endorsement of plans that deserve significant debate (such as increasing the size of the military).

Edwards rejected the "war on terror", rightly identifying it as a political frame, and slammed the Bush doctrine of preventive war. He also clearly identified how the current administration is hurting the military, both in the field and at home, offering a persuasive alternative model for the civil-military relationship.

I'll quibble in that he says he'll leave troops in the Green Zone to protect the embassy, but the rejection of of fear is huge.  By contrast, Clinton would not say how she would have voted on Feingold-Reid (she voted for cloture) and will not now say how she's going to vote on the new capitulation supplemental.

Either route chosen will bring with it huge potential political pitfalls, as Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., tacitly acknowledged Wednesday afternoon in her dismissive comments to reporters asking her how she will vote.

"When I have something to say, I will say it, gentlemen," Clinton told journalists.

I'm going to quote Digby.

Taking into account that this report is the usual Jake Tapper insider BS filled with GOP talking points, the fact remains that if Senator Clinton hasn't learned her lesson by now she never will. Voting for the Iraq resolution was the biggest mistake she ever made and it remains the biggest obstacle to her winning the nomination. Democratic voters reluctantly forgave John Kerry and John Edwards for making that boneheaded decision the first time but they won't do it again. If she votes with Bush on Iraq this time, it's over. She will lose the left wing of her party completely.

In fact, I'm shocked that any of the Democratic candidates for president would even entertain a passing thought that they would vote for this thing. It was a bad political calculation in 2002 and it so much more stupid now that I can't even wrap my mind around the idea that they aren't rushing to the microphones to declare their vote against it.

I actually think it's a little simpler than this.  Clinton is a hawk.  She believes in the occupation and she doesn't want to withdraw all our troops from Iraq because she thinks they are protecting what she sees as vital national security interest.  I'm not going to pretend this is a political calculation, I'm not going to be that condescending to Clinton.  She genuinely thinks this and is pretty upfront about it (though she does try to blur the difference as a strategy, her policy statements are pretty clear).  She doesn't regret her 2002 war vote, to her it wasn't a mistake.  And now it's up to the Democratic primary voting universe to take her at her word, and debate whether it makes sense to leave troops in Iraq and choose Clinton as our nominee, or to ask our nominee to pull our troops out and choose someone else.  This is what democracy is about, it's what primaries are about.  

I'm looking forward to seeing which Senators filibuster the capitulation bill.



Display:


Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)


It should be pointed out that Hilary's idea of withdrawing US troops into secure bases is about as sensible as occupying Iraq in the first place.  These bases will not be defensible.  Think about it. Once the US withdraws from the green zone, the US will no longer be able to pick the government.  This government will be hostile to further occupation.  Now all they need to do is pepper those bases with Katyshka rockets and buy antiaircraft missiles from the Russians.  How long could we supply those bases under these conditions?  How expensive would it be?
by syvanen on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:27:59 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

Yep, permanent bases would be great for Hezbollah if they want to practice without being bombed into the stone age by the Israeli airforce, but I can't really see who else benefits. There are plenty of bases outside Iraq in the region which are less likely to be attacked.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

Like we NEVER should have occupied Iraq, we now need to LEAVE Iraq.

Do you really think that the other countries, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Eqypt will let this country continue unrest?  Sometimes, you got to just pack your shit and bounce, and let the crumbs fall where they may.  And that is about it with  Iraq.  The longer we occupy, the longer we have to continue to hear about our troops being killed on a daily basis.

And President Bush, the most selfish individual that ever occupied the White House.  He catapulted this country into believing, "if we don't fight them there, they will come here".  The country is finally waking up out of the "Bush Shock" and has come around to enough is enough.

If Hillary Rodham Clinton want to keep us in Iraq, and she has stated this about keeping forces in that hostile country, who does not WANT US THERE.  It is our responsibility, not to hand over the golden keys, to HER.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen (3.00 / 2)

What could be possibly be more important to filibuster than this supplemental (a.k.a. the 2007 Sacrifice More Troops Act)?

Feingold, Dodd, and anyone else who cares to join (Byrd?) should take the Senate floor and filibuster the old fashioned way. (Hell, it's the only thing that might possibly get Dodd any traction in the presidential race.) I believe Senate rules mean they'll be going for at least 3 days before a cloture vote is possible. I suggest reading the names and biographies of each fallen soldier, inviting the families of each of our heroes to the Senate gallery should they wish to see American some democracy for a change. And then, if the filibuster is still going, start working down the list of injured soldiers who have given limbs and brains in service to their country.

Let's find out who the 10+ Democrats are who still want to vote for cloture.

Let's roll.


by BBCWatcher on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:47:48 PM EST

Re: Amen (3.00 / 2)

Kerry is planning on voting no.  He'd probably tag in on the fillibustering.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bernie Sanders (3.00 / 1)

Sanders would take several shifts on the Senate floor. Feingold, Dodd, Kerry, Sanders, Byrd... plenty of senators to hold the floor in rotation while still allowing bathroom breaks, lunches, media appearances, etc.

With those five getting the ball rolling I could see several more taking shifts. I'm thinking Brown, Boxer, Harkin, Kennedy, Dorgan, Leahy, Mikulski, and Wyden among others in the next batch.


by BBCWatcher on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 0)

As I've mentioned before - "how does she vote?"

That will be the key here.  Given the horrible effects of our occupation of Iraq, there is only one way a sane person CAN vote.


by jc on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:48:25 PM EST

Re: Filibuster (none / 0)

I'm not too sure about this, but since this is a funding bill, isn't that non-filibusteral according to Senate rules? Seems like I've heard that somewhere.

If it is possible, I would be interested in calling for the filibuster.


by AmericanJedi on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:49:58 PM EST

Re: Filibuster (3.00 / 2)

the rules are that you cannot filibuster a budget bill.  So, this is extraneous so does not qualify.  ALL of Bush's Iraq money has been EXTRA to the budget.  

I hope they filibuster.


McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Filibuster (none / 0)

I'm not sure they can filibuster a Conference Report.


by seeker on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (3.00 / 0)

I disagree that Hillary is a genuine hawk. I believe that her position is a political calculation, one she deems necessary to bolster her support in the GE.
A female Democrat, who is viewed by much of the population as the most liberal candidate, needs to do something to stay competitive among moderate male voters (and that's a lot of voters!).

www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:53:50 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics (3.00 / 2)

From what I understand, she's actually a genuine hawk and when she votes against war, she's making a political calculation.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (none / 0)

Well, I would LIKE to believe she isn't a genuine hawk - 'cause she may be President one day.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (none / 0)

Wanting to believe something doesn't make it right.  Her pre-Iraq rhetoric was very hawkish.

This is off-topic, but is Landstander a reference to the "Home Movies" tv show?


Check out my blog, Capital Viewpoint
by whogotthegravy on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (none / 0)

Re: my name - yes, it is!

Re: HRC - Honestly, I don't know about Hillary. I see her as a career politician who has been positioning herself for many, many years. And I can only assume that a powerful woman, positioning herself for a powerful political career, is going to take hawkish stances to counter her femininity.

Does this mean she will bomb Iran, saber-rattle at China and escalate the occupation in Iraq if she is president? I really doubt it. I don't think her view of international relations is that aggressive, and I think she will only act aggressively if she feels she has to prove something to the macho half of the electorate.

After all, she is a Democrat, and will have Democratic advisers, and a Democratic cabinet. I don't think any group of Democrats can be half the hawks that the Reagan or Bush administrations were. Not even close.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu May 24, 2007 at 11:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (none / 0)

There are neo-cons or neo-libs in the Democratic Party.  Perle was once a Democrat.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1 534


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary and Reid Fiengold (none / 0)

Am I wrong or did she vote for cloture and then she and Obama were one of 29 Senators who voted for the Reid-Feingold Bill, with 67 against, hence its failure.  She said later that she wished she had another option, but she wanted to send a message to Bush.


by Kingstongirl on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:07:21 PM EST

Re: Hillary and Reid Fiengold (3.00 / 1)

She and Obama voted for cloture, not for the bill itself. Nobody voted on the bill because the cloture vote failed.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary and Reid Fiengold (none / 0)

Thanks.


by Kingstongirl on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

Hillary sucks, I'll be so happy to vote against her.


by Bob Brigham on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:52:23 PM EST

Re: Matt Stoller's Presidential Politics (none / 0)

Matt Stoller said:

"From what I understand, she's actually a genuine hawk and when she votes against war, she's making a political calculation."

I would like to see your sources cited. As a woman and a liberal with a fairly strong record to prove it she has to appear hawkish to demonstrate that she isn't a wus on National Security. Its a given.

That she hasn't "apologized" for her War Authorization vote is ludicrous. She made a decision based upon what she thought was the right course of action at the time. And the state she represents was hit on 9/11. She is working to stop this war. That is all that is really important.


by JustaDem on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:02:28 PM EST

"Working to stop the war" (none / 0)

Means voting against this capitulation supplemental.

All the Dem PrezCandis better do that.


by TeddySanFran on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 1)


  This puts the Hillary supporters on the spot, doesn't it?

 This bill is a disaster for the Democrats -- indeed, it's a disaster for ANY American who wants the carnage to stop. Hillary's people have been claiming all along that she's really against the war, that her 2002 vote doesn't count, that's she's this wonderful progressive with all these great ideals and principles, and that the netroots are too mean to her.

 Well, here's a chance for her to prove her critics wrong.

 And she's already blown it. Opposing this farce of a "compromise" should be an automatic no-brainer for ANY Democrat serious about getting tough on Bush and ending this stupid war.

 Her equivocation tells us all we need to know. She loves this war, and now she's annoyed that she has to make it public.

 


by Master Jack on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:02:55 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 4)

I have to congratulate Mr Edwards for his speaking out on this shame of our party.
while doing so, my candidate has remained silent and I wait to see what comes tomorrow but, I will revolt if he goes along.
Senator Clinton, when asked by a reporter how she will vote tomorrow got nasty and snippy.
Right now, mr. Edwards is doing what all should have done and I salute him.
I pray my senator and candidate will do the same.
I wrote to him about it.  Many have urged him to lead.  
by vwcat on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:04:25 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 2)

Oh man, if Obama loses even vwcat, it's over for him.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

Depends on how the benchmarks look.  That's how Obama is going to decide whether to vote yes or no.  

Also, it has been... A day now?  He's been... Doing what.  Being a senator... Running for president... Of course he should have replied by now.  Especially since he replied about whether Imus should keep his job way too slowly, he has to make up for lost ground.  Edwards is replying so fast he's going to win... Win what?  Who knows, but he's going to win it.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It doesnt matter what the benchmarks (3.00 / 3)

actually say, they have no teeth and so Bush doesnt care. He'll say "yeah, things are going great" and keep on keeping on.

They are just a feelgood add-on but even the people that put them in there don't believe they mean anything, ex. Pelosi.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

I've said it before...but Obama shouldn't tip his hand to Hillary until the last possible moment.


by rashomon on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 2)

What does that matter? Will he not speak for fear others might follow him?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's in a Presidental Race (none / 0)

I don't think it's so terrible to look at the political dynamic and realize that he shouldn't tip his hand to Hillary.


by rashomon on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's in a Presidental Race (3.00 / 2)

Again, why not? The longer he waits, the more he pisses people off who are looking to him for leadership. I suppose he could wait until the actual vote to make his statement, but what would that prove?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's in a Presidental Race (none / 0)

Hillary is changing her image.  To what you ask?  Obama's?  Maybe.  She's trying to paint herself as if she's been against this war for a long time now but it just isn't true.  She's losing a large chunck of the base, that's why she's repainting things.  

You know what could happen, Obama will say how he feels about this bill, then Hillary will go on tv and say she's always felt that way about this bill.  My guess at least.  Obama can lead, he just has to watch Hillary so if she tries to lie, he can call her out on it.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

JeremiahTheMessiah (none / 0)

Please provide a link or links to show that Hillary is losing "a large chunk of the base".

Thank you.


by samueldem on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama will vote no (3.00 / 1)

How do I know this?

Because candidates, as a rule, don't commit political suicide.


by david mizner on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama will vote no (3.00 / 1)

But remember what he said in April

If President Bush vetoes an Iraq war spending bill as promised, Congress quickly will provide the money without the withdrawal timeline the White House objects to because no lawmaker "wants to play chicken with our troops," Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday.

I think he his going to have a problem with having already said he would vote for a bill with no timelines.  He will be seen as inconsistent and flipflopping.  That is why he is silent.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama will vote no (none / 0)

I think so too.  


by aiko on Thu May 24, 2007 at 03:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama and Clinton voted for Gregg (3.00 / 2)

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/ro ll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?con gress=110&session=1&vote=00077

Sen. Judd Gregg's (R-N.H.) Iraq resolution, which argues that Congress has a constitutional duty to fully fund troops during wartime

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/2008 -and-counting-watching-clinton-obama-squ irm-on-troop-funding-2007-03-21.html

This cynical vote now puts them both is a tough situation.


by citizen53 on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:29:41 PM EST

Its certainly a hard spot (none / 0)

Obama has said repeatedly that cutting off funding is irresponsible and has pretty strongly supported benchmarks in his own bill. And either way he votes, he's going to have to say why - the silence just can't last. Its a tough bind he is in, tougher than Clinton I think.

For some reason I have a feeling a yes or no on Clinton's part wont affect her much.


by okamichan13 on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree on Clinton... (3.00 / 1)

but that Gregg vote seems like it was very shortsighted.


by citizen53 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree on Clinton... (3.00 / 1)

I think its because they are both running for the general and were afraid of the consequences.


by okamichan13 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics (none / 0)

When you're number three or lower and have no responsiblity for votes -it's easy to be bold- Nothing is black and white- as long as Hillary bashers continue to see her through a hatred filled lens -there is little hope for our party and unity. These blogs are beginning to take on Rush Limbaugh characteristics-stretching the truth to fit your spin and your candidate- Unlike John Edwards who was the most major of hawks when voting for the Iraq -Hillary Clinton's floor speech cautioned the President to use force as a last resort.  George Bush deserves your anger not Hillary. Her plan to withdraw from Iraq but leave troops comports with even the most dovish of former and present military leaders.  Just because you see everything she does and says as purely political-even though she has spent an entire lifetime in public service- doesn't mean it's so.
The "authenticity" of various candidates appears so refreshing-let's get real -George Bush was pretty "authentic" too. He told the right wing what they wanted to hear- now some candidates on our side are doing the same- Talk is not so cheap-It cost us a great deal this time around-we cannot afford to let it happen again.
by Menemshasunset on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:40:53 PM EST

Limbaugh? (none / 0)

Who's shading the truth now? Of any candidate, Hillary has surfed the ebb and flow of public opinion on Iraq the most.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 1)

At least this does smoke out the prez candidates. Who's got the gumption to take a stand and stick it out? Who's got the gumption to get in the face of their Bush appeasing colleagues and speak their truth? Thanks, Matt. Let's raise hell with this beltway crowd.


by cmpnwtr on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:15:11 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 1)

I'll quibble in that he says he'll leave troops in the Green Zone to protect the embassy

wtf, are you serious?  That is naive to think that we could house an embassy in Iraq without some serious protection.

Or are you of the isolationist camp that believes we should pull out of having an embassy too?


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:20:40 PM EST

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

Jerome, you should really think about taking your animosity towards Matt somewhere else. Private chat room, perhaps.


by scudbucket on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (none / 0)

stfu up about lecturing me. It really boggles the mind that someone would seriously hold that position that our embassy should be unprotected.


by Jerome Armstrong on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

About That Embassy (3.00 / 1)

Jerome, the Department of State does close embassies in civil war zones. Routinely. They are not military bases, and we do not expect our diplomatic corps to serve in war zones nor expect anyone to navigate minefields (literally) to obtain a tourist visa in the middle of a war.

The State Department constantly reviews the security situation in every country. One famous example of the U.S. closing an embassy in a war zone is Lebanon during their civil war. Another even more famous example is Iran during the Iranian Revolution, and the U.S. still does not have an embassy there. Yet another example is when the U.S. closed its embassy in Russia in 1919. The embassy in Somalia has been closed since 1991.

In some cases the U.S. State Department pulls all staff out of the country but the Marines still guard the property. In other cases even the Marines pull up stakes. It depends on the security situation.

There's no reason to maintain an embassy in many circumstances. Considering where we still have embassies closed, I don't think there's much reason to maintain one in Iraq when we pull our troops. Unless by "Iraq" we mean the de facto country known as the "Kurdish North" -- that's possible.


by BBCWatcher on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More Embassy Closures (none / 0)

The U.S. pulled its ambassador from its embassy in Germany in 1939, and then, after Pearl Harbor, the remaining embassy workers got a taste of one of Hitler's internment camps for 5 1/2 months, including George Keenan. Needless to say the Marines did not guard the embassy building during the war; the Swiss did. :-) The U.S. closed a huge number of other embassies at this time for obvious reasons.

In Operation Frequent Wind during the Fall of Saigon, April 29 to April 30, 1975, the U.S. evacuated its embassy, including all Marines. Considering the situation in Iraq a similar outcome seems inevitable, so a more dignified exit now would be advisable.

In May, 1980, the U.S. closed its embassy in Libya. Today there is only an "interests section" representing the U.S.

And I could go on. The point is there's nothing sacred about maintaining embassies in countries where it doesn't make any security or diplomatic sense to maintain embassies.

Let's not fall into the political frame-trap of thinking that the U.S. must maintain an embassy in "Iraq." Iraq will exist as much as the Ottoman Empire before too long. The State Department, at least most of its career employees, aren't so stupid to maintain an embassy in these inevitable circumstances.


by BBCWatcher on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More Embassy Closures (3.00 / 2)

Good points, so the 'isolationist' claim is unwarranted, but that was aside my main point.

As long as there is a US embassy in Iraq, it not having military protection would be crazy.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More Embassy Closures (none / 0)

You and I don't disagree.  I think it's probably silly to have an embassy if it requires large numbers of American troops and a green zone, which to me is a military base.  I'm just looking for ways candidates are carving out wiggle room.


by Matt Stoller on Thu May 24, 2007 at 07:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wouldnt it make some diplomatic sense (3.00 / 1)

to keep an embassy open in Iraq? It seems a little rash to basically cut off diplomatic ties with the Iraqi government and there is much we can and should be doing there that doesn't involve fighting a war or policing someone else's war.

It doesnt seem to make diplomatic sense at all to pretend Iraq doesn't exist once we've pulled our troops out. The diplomatic work really begins at that point and having an embassy there would seem to be very important for that work. Once we are no longer involved in trying to push our military solution, it is essential that we try to foster where we can the political solution.

Especially with a new administration we can change course and try more to be part of some solutions. Disengaging on the diplomatic front isn't the answer. And a serious diplomatic effort that helps Iraq towards not only political solutions, but economic and social solutions, needs an embassy.

Granted an embassy would be impossible under certain conditions especially where a certain degree of safety for personnel cannot be maintained, but categorically stating that we won't even have an embassy in Iraq when we leave seems rather foolish and short-sighted.


by okamichan13 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wouldnt it make some diplomatic sense (3.00 / 1)

This is sort of silly.  There is a civil war and chaos on the ground.  This is the situation with 150,000 US troops.  If/when we pull out the embassy will be a minor problem.  The greeen zone will cease to exist.  Iraq will cease to exist.


by aiko on Thu May 24, 2007 at 04:06:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wouldnt it make some diplomatic sense (none / 0)

We'll find out, won't we? Right now your guess is as good as mine.

But our responsibility to do what we can to improve Iraq does not end when our troops leave. I'm sure your candidate Obama would agree with that.


by okamichan13 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 09:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More Embassy Closures (none / 0)

Interesting.  Also is there polite international etiquette that would allow an Iraqi * cough * sovereign government to ask &/or enforce the US to vacate their embassy?

What (int) legal rights, if any, does a foreign power have with regard to the operation and occupation of their embassy?


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:36:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Expelling Diplomats (none / 0)

Under international law, any nation may push out another nation's diplomats. So yes, in theory, the "Iraqi" Foreign Ministry could eject all U.S. diplomats at any time, just as the U.S. State Department could eject Iraqi diplomats from the U.S. Alternatively, a nation may refuse to accept any new diplomat(s), and no reason is required.  This is all pretty much common sense: it'd be impossible to force any country to accept diplomats or to keep them.  Think about what happens when countries break off diplomatic relations: they say, basically, "Pack your bags, foreigners, and go home."

The embassy (and its grounds) are sovereign territory, however, so legally the property remains intact even if the people are all gone.


by BBCWatcher on Thu May 24, 2007 at 04:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expelling Diplomats (none / 0)

Thanks...


by SandThroughTheEyeGlass on Thu May 24, 2007 at 11:29:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential Politics and the Capitulation Bil (3.00 / 1)

"Clinton is a hawk.  She believes in the occupation and she doesn't want to withdraw all our troops from Iraq because she thinks they are protecting what she sees as vital national security interest."

She is clearly on the side of corporate power, statism, American empire, etc. etc. Sounds like a Republican to me. Where was she on Alito, Roberts, Abrahmoff, funding THE WAR ... Where is she on campaign finance reform, ethics, unions, bankruptcy, immigration, funding THE WAR ....

She's a cold hearted bitch, ideologically the same as Bill without the charm and grace. Remember, her interest in reforming health care is that it benefits corporations, not that the system is dysfunctional. Her primary worry about the impending housing-market/foreclosure debacle is its effect on Wall Street, not the people left homeless. Take out the big 'D' by her name, and that she is (silently) pro-choice (ala Romney, Guiliani?), and what's left? Progressives should be shunning her.


by scudbucket on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:17:06 PM EST

scudbucket wrote: (none / 0)

"She's a cold hearted bitch, ideologically the same as Bill without the charm and grace"
______

I support Hillary.  I find her both charming and graceful.  As do millions of other Americans.  Which is why she is leading in every national poll and most of the state polls.  But it isn't just charm and grace that have 75 percent of Democrats approving of Hillary.  It's her brains; her hard work and her record.

She gets the highest percentage of women voters; of Latino voters; Asian voters; and, depending upon which state is polled, she also gets a huge chunk of the African American voters.  When it comes to male voters, she breaks even with Obama.

I also doubt very very much that the following people and organizations would endorse a candidate who is a cold hearted bitch.

ENDORSEMENTS FOR HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT:

May 2007
5/23 State Sen. Deb Reynolds Endorses Hillary Clinton for President  
5/19 Women's Campaign Forum Endorses Clinton, Joins Women Leaders Across the Country  
5/18 Human Rights Leader Dolores Huerta Endorses Clinton  
5/18 Leading Florida Women Endorse Clinton  
5/16 Clinton Campaign Announces Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders for Hillary  
5/15 NH Senate President Sylvia Larsen Endorses Hillary Clinton for President  
5/14 Leading Wisconsin Officials Endorse Clinton  
5/14 Texas Rep. Jackson Lee Endorses Clinton  
5/9 Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley Endorses Clinton  
5/8 Massachusetts Rep. Richard Neal Endorses Clinton  
5/7 Leading Virginia Officials Endorse Clinton

April 2007
4/30 National Women's Political Caucus Endorses Clinton  
4/28 Ret. Lt. Gen. Claudia Kennedy Endorses Clinton  
4/27 Leading Californians Endorse Clinton  
4/26 Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones Endorses Clinton  
4/25 CA Assembly Speaker Fabian Núñez Endorses Clinton  
4/24 Maryland Sen. Barbara Mikulski Endorses Clinton  
4/23 500 NH Women Announce Support for Sen. Clinton For President  
4/20 19 Massachusetts Legislators Endorse Clinton  
4/19 St. Louis Mayor Slay Endorses Clinton  
4/12 Civil Rights Leader Raul Yzaguirre Endorses Clinton  
4/12 Florence, SC, Mayor Frank Willis Endorses Clinton  
4/10 Geraldine Ferraro Endorses Clinton  
4/5 Nine More NH State Representatives Endorse Senator Clinton for President  
4/2 Gov. Corzine, NJ Officials Endorse Clinton

March 2007
3/29 Massachusetts Rep. McGovern Endorses Clinton  
3/28 Clinton Endorsed by National Organization for Women During Day of Women's Outreach  
3/28 Billie Jean King Endorses Clinton  
3/26 Gov. Tom and Christie Vilsack Throw Support Behind Clinton  
3/21 Bill Shaheen Endorses Senator Clinton  
3/20 Asst. NH House Majority Leader Endorses Senator Clinton for President  
3/19 Pennsylvania Rep. Schwartz Endorses Clinton  
3/15 Sixteen NH State Representatives Endorse Senator Clinton for President  
3/13 North Country Leader, Healthcare Advocate McLeod Endorses Senator Clinton for President  
3/6 NH House Majority Leader Mary Jane Wallner Endorses Senator Clinton for President

February 2007
2/20 Reps. Wasserman Schultz, Hastings Endorse Clinton For President  
2/19 Clinton Announces South Carolina Endorsements  
2/18 Clinton Announces Nevada Chair  


by samueldem on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

scudbucket also wrote: (none / 0)

"Remember, her interest in reforming health care is that it benefits corporations, not that the system is dysfunctional."
_________

I guess scudbucket missed the "Presidential Forum on Healthcare" in Las Vegas a few weeks ago.  Hillary was the only candidate to attack the insurance companies and she was the only candidate to promise to put an end to the unethical discrimination practised by the insurance companies against those with pre-existing conditions; against exorbitant co-pays; against huge administrative bureaucracies.

You are quite wrong scudbucket.  Hillary's interest in reforming healthcare is rooted in the dysfunctionality of the current system and she made a firm committment to correct the problems, and is currently working on legislation to this effect.  

You should listen to the videos of all the candidates at that very important healthcare forum.  Do you know how to google?


by samueldem on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:53:34 AM EST

Boycott (none / 0)

I think we ought to boycott the Democratic party. I feel that if they are not going to support those who contributed money and innumerable hours to put them in power, then perhaps they do not deserve to stay in power. Thus, I say, if the Democrats are not going to cut the purse strings, then we should cut theirs.


by pennquaker08 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:49:38 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.