The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated

Jerome, Matt and several others blog already covered this, but the still unfolding story of Obama's MySpace page angers me quite a bit. For those that have forgotten, here is a quick reminder of how money is spent in electoral politics:

In the 2004 federal races, more than $1.85 billion flowed through a professional corps of consultants whose influence plays an important, though largely unexamined, role in the unrelenting escalation of campaign spending, a groundbreaking Center for Public Integrity study has found.(...)
  • About 600 professional consultants were paid more than a combined $1.85 billion in the 2003-2004 federal campaigns.

  • Media consultants, who offer political and strategic advice and handle political advertising, were paid $1.2 billion, or 65 percent of all consultant spending.

  • Direct mail consultants billed the second-largest amount, $298 million, totaling 16 percent of all consultant spending.

  • Consultants routinely pitch campaign plans that rely heavily on their own specialty because there is a financial incentive to do so.

  • Fundraising consultants, whose services are necessitated in large part by the rising amounts campaigns spend on other consultants, cost candidates at least $59 million.
And here is a quick reminder of where that money comes from on the Democratic side:
In the 2003-2004 cycle, according to an internal study of FEC reports, the membership of MoveOn.org contributed $180 million to Democratic candidates for federal office (House, Senate and President). Given both that the progressive netroots are larger than just MoveOn.org, and the propensity of netroots activists to make small donations that would not appear in FEC reports, the total amount of money the netroots contributed Democratic federal campaigns and committees in 2003-2004 was probably closer to $300 million.
In the case of Barack Obama presidential campaign, more than $7M has already been raised online. Considering that the Obama campaign refused to compensate a super-volunteer for putting together a website with 160,000 supporters reinforces a disturbing pattern that is taking place between Democratic campaigns and the progressive netroots. Small online donors and activists are expected to use Democratic campaigns as a means to funnel huge amounts of resources to wealthy consultants and thirty-second television spots, while the netroots itself is not expected to receive anything in return. We have already done this to the tune of several hundred million dollars during 2003-2007, and clearly it seems that the same song keeps playing without skipping a beat.

People can argue over the specific amount that Joe Anthony should have been paid for the two and a half years he spent building up the Barack Obama MySpace page. Was $44K an appropriate amount? I certainly think so, especially considering the vastly greater amounts of money other consultants receive as compensation for less effective campaign work. Others will disagree, and argue that a smaller amount, such as $15K, would have been fair. However, the specific amounts are not really the point, especially considering that Joe Anthony has received exactly zero dollars in compensation so far. The point is that this replicates the pattern I have complained about for so long. Even as they spend millions of dollars in other areas, Democratic campaigns refuse to fund even the most vital netroots activists who work on their behalf, because they are unable to control those activists. As I wrote in January:
But I am not just angry at myself, or the general lack of funding currently available to the people, institutions, and ideas that make the progressive movement so vital. I am also pissed off at the Democratic and progressive establishment that is funded with our dollars, but which refuses to fund us in return. I have worked on trying to secure more monetary and other forms of support for bloggers for a long time. For example, that was why I founded the Liberal Blog Advertising Network, and that is what Matt and I are trying to do with BlogPac. However, there have been quite a few other, less successful ventures I have tried, and the main problem has always been that large progressive donors, institutions and politicians just don't want to fund something they can't control. Since the political blogosphere and the people powered progressive movement is, by nature, something over which no one can exert all that much individual control, it just doesn't get funding in the same way that more staid, cautious, and restrained progressive organizations and politicians receive. It also doesn't help that we have been so good at channeling resources into the establishment without asking for anything in return. Why would major donors, organizations, and politicians bother to fund us if we fund them without asking for anything in return?

This situation sucks--literally. When it comes to political contributions and the progressive movement, the flow of money is almost entirely one-way. To the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, it is sucked out of the movement, and pocketed by the establishment.
The way Joe Anthony has been treated is emblematic of all the funding problems currently facing the progressive blogosphere and netroots. No matter how much positive work we do on their behalf, they can't control us, and so they don't compensate us. In this case, they will even usurp us after asking us to name our price, and simply being unsatisfied with our offer. I wonder what offer the Obama campaign would have accepted and not viewed as grounds to simply cut off ties. We may never know, because apparently the Obama campaign did not even bother to make a counter offer.

The Obama campaign should just pay the man. Re-open negotiations and find a price you can both agree upon., Break this cycle where our money and energies are sucked up into the political establishment, and we receive nothing in return. The netroots do so much to help Democratic campaigns, that the least these campaigns can do for us is compensate us for our work when it is warranted and legal. This is one of those cases. Pay the man.

Update: Those who say that I wouldn't be making posts like this if another campaign had acted the same way are being ridiculous. For example, I kicked up a huge shitstorm during the Edwards bloggers bit. If you think this is about having something against Obama, rather than about standing up for the netroots, your head is in the sand. Where do you really think my loyalties rest: with one campaign, or with the netroots? If you have any familiarity with my writing, you would know the answer is obviously the netroots. Stop projecting your inclinations toward a particular candidate instead to the netroots onto me.

Second, to somehow turn this into an argument that all Obama volunteers should be paid is absurd, intellectual sophism. Anthony was delivering an incredibly important service to the campaign, and was then asked by the campaign to name a price for that service. Thus, the only apt comparison to make is when another volunteer is asked by the campaign to name a price for a service s/he provides. Further, when he named a price as asked, instead of a counter-offer, the campaign seems to have cut off all ties and given him nothing. Now you tell me--who negotiated in bad faith in that exchange--the Obama campaign, or the netroots activist? Was he given some kind of warning that if the campaign didn't like his offer, they would give him nothing and cut off all ties? I don't think so. And what does this exchange say about the campaign's respect for the netroots?

Display:


Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (1.28 / 7)

And the hit job continues


by kekuta on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:36:22 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 2)

That's right - keep you head in the sand.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really believe... (none / 0)

that if Edwards had pulled this crap, the same diary wouldn't have shown up?

C'mon, that's ridiculous.


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really believe... (3.00 / 2)

And the Obama supporters would be talking about how it shows he doesn't really care about regular folks.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really believe... (none / 0)

No, I really wouldn't...


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really believe... (none / 0)

I just meant the nastier more vocal ones.  But many of the less nasty ones would pop up and say that they've always had doubts, and this makes them even more suspicious.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really believe... (none / 0)

I don't think many of us would care. Just like in the "blogger" fiasco with him, which seemed like such a big deal at the time. That was just a shitty situation for all of them, but it didn't change my opinion of Edwards.


by faithfull on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Not a hit job.  It's  self inflicted wound from gun of contempt.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:40:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should I be demand compensation... (none / 0)

...every time I write a post about Obama?


by faithfull on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:47:16 PM EST

Re: Should I be demand compensation... (3.00 / 1)

that is such a lame comparison I don't even know where to begin.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should I be demand compensation... (1.20 / 5)

Heckuva job chris...by the way the new Obama myspace page is adding up friends fast.

I always thought you are more methodical than this sham of a hit job.


by kekuta on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its a broad question (3.00 / 1)

At what point, in working for a campaign, can I demand compensation?

For instance, say I've spent several hours working on blog posts about Obama and other issues (and Im sure that just makes you cry a river...) Several of my posts have made recommended lists at various blogs, and several donations have been made to the Obama campaign through those posts, and several people have been convinced to support Obama because of those posts. I don't know how many, but I do think that it raises an intersting question about  how much volunteer work you can do before you demand to be compensated.

If you organize a house party?

If you raise $1000 for the campaign?

If you make 1000 phone calls?

Thats what I was getting at...


by faithfull on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:10:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a demand (none / 0)

You never get to just demand compensation for services alrelady rendered. But you can ask for payment to compensate transfer of ownership, of an investment, of something of great value.
You are perfectly within your rights to say "I'll throw a house party for you for $200," (most people just ask that the campaign pay for food, drinks, etc.) but why on earth should that mean that a campaign can just take someone's work? To use your analogy, that would be like asking the campaign to pay you to throw a house party, and then having them turn you down, break into your house, and eat all your food.

We're not a bunch of little fiefdoms to be conquered. There are too many of us too closely linked for it to work that way. You saw that picture of the blogosphere! This "Open Left" thing Matt has been talking about works on motivation and inspiration -- you can't corral that. Power works differently on the tubes.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a demand (none / 0)

ha:

To use your analogy, that would be like asking the campaign to pay you to throw a house party, and then having them turn you down, break into your house, and eat all your food.

Not an exact analogy, but it made me laugh anyway. Thanks for your reply. Its a great one.


by faithfull on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should I be demand compensation... (3.00 / 2)

Ridiculous.  Most paid campaign staff start out as volunteers, prove that they can produce more than they cost, and are then offered a paid position.  My spouse was offered a paid position after 3 months of volunteering on a prominent 2006 campaign because she was able to handle far more than the typical volunteer.  Similarly advertising agencies are often asked to do a freebie before being given a contract.

This guy proved himself, built something of great value to the campaign - but he shouldn't be compensated?  What if he sets up a New York partnership with an address on Madison Avenue - could he be compensated then?

sPh


by sphealey on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 1)

... and all of Obama's 'volunteers' started changing their minds about how much all their time was worth, how would you feel about the campaign shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to them?

Admittedly I'm biased, but the Obama campaign fundamentally offered to pay, and the guy demanded 44 grand??

It's not a matter of the market value of the product, which probably was 44 grand. The guy worked with the campaign with the understanding that it was volunteer work, under Obama's name. If this isn't cybersquatting what is?

If the Obama campaign offers to negotiate with him, he'll probably refuse, just because the consequent drama would pay more. Hell, Hillary would probably pay him 88k to make a big deal out of refusing 44k.


by jforshaw on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:49:20 PM EST

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

From what I understand, Anthony and the Obama campaign discussed the fact the Anthony should be compensated, and the campaign asked him to propose a one-time fee.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 2)

As I've said elsewhere, I think it was the "taking" of the site from him, and the lack of support that did them in.

Imagine if they had (months ago) given him a $1000/month staff job as "MySpace Coordinator for Barack Obama", and had him transfer the site over to them.  It would be a local boy done good story, instead they came over the top and took it from him.


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 1)

I haven't been following this in detail, but still, the cybersquatting charge seems silly.

The guy started out as a volunteer.  But then his volunteer thing blew up to the point where he was spending hours a day on it.  At that point, the campaign wanted to officially take over his work.  That's not cybersquatting.  That's organizing so effectively that the campaign wanted direct control, more then just the shared password access they already had.

The guy admitted that he had no idea what to ask for.  He went for what, 50k?  Compared to the fees big time consultants get, that's peanuts.  I think it is a bit high, considering he did start as a volunteer, but still, is it really that bad of a first offer for someone delivering 140k+ names?  The Obama campaign should have come back with a counter offer, not gone over his head directly to myspace.com, right?


by dansomone on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

It's cybersquatting because he controlled a domain name to which the campaign was likely entitled.  Sen. Obama shouldn't have to use www.myspace.com/therealbarackobama or something like that.

He should get paid, but $39K for three months is ridiculous.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except the campaign was working with him (3.00 / 1)

together on the site.

Anthony even gave them the pass word to change content.

I'm not an attorney as you may be but working together on a web page before seizing it might not make it a simple cybersquatter case.

Particularly if Obama's campaign made him an unsolicited offer to buy him out.

The press is getting worse as the volunteer is saying Obama has lost his vote.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Except the campaign was working with him (none / 0)

Joe Anthony changed the password after the myspace page started getting a lot of hits.  Read the diary the campaign has put out.

I'm baffled that so many people are so willing to judge Obama's campaign without even hearing his said of the story.  

This is how I see it:

1) Joe Anthony grabbed the Obama myspace name in 2004, figuring it would be worth something in 2007-8.

2) When the campaign notices, Joe plays along for a while, to make sure that the campaign certifies to MySpace that the web page involved has the official sanction of Obama.  This development drives traffic at the web site way up.

3) Once the traffic is way up, Joe decides the time has come.  He changes the password and demands money.  The campaign is over a barrel because they want to avoid bad publicity.  It's payoff time!


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (3.00 / 1)

Www.barackobama.com, www.johnedwards.com, and www.joefeces.com are domain names.  Myspace.com is a domain name.  The slash indicates a directory or space underneath that domain.  

To cybersquat you must generally go through a registrar to create  a unique name for a domain.  This guy setup a user account with a service.

If I make a website (or anyone else does) called www.randomdudes.com and I make a directory with a name  called  www.randomdudes.com/barackobama I am not cybersquatting.  I'm not preventing BO from being able to reasonably use an ID associated with him.  The same applies if I made a site called candidateswhosuck.com/joebiden (for example).  It isn't preventing the candidate from using  his name.  There can be millions of somename.com/candidatename type sites but only one candidatename.com

Cybersquatting is preventing someone from using a particular unique name on the internet, not adding a random account with said name to an existing domain.

Just so we are clear.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (3.00 / 3)

Well, yes and no.  Because MySpace can allocate its account names however it wants, and in this case, they determined that Obama was entitled to that account name.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (3.00 / 1)

Yes and no nothing.

Myspace can do what ever the hell it wants, ethical or not.  But what Anthony did was not cybersquatting and the "/barackobama"  is not a domain name.

Argue over the ethics of the situation, but don't call cybersquatting.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (none / 0)

Anthony violated Obama's common-law right of trademark in his name, his common-law right of publicity, etc.  How's that?


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (none / 0)

Afraid that doesn't cut it either.   One, he's not preventing BO from using barackobama.com.  Two, BO's people were willing accomplices until the situation wasn't convenient for them.

I'm not sure what "common-law right of publicity" is.  It sounds like a convenient made up term.

This arguement implies that one can't put a /barackobama on ANY site without the campaign approval, which is patently absurd.  What about non-partisan informational sites?  

If I wanted to, I could make a directory on my site with a /barackobama and put whatever I want in it,  It would be perfectly legal (barring of course slander/kiddie-porn, etc).  The only "legal" matter here is myspace's (News Corp's) right to do whatever they want on their web pages.  Anthony did absolutely nothing illegal in any sense of the word to BO, and this would be the case even if myspace.com/barackobama was totally anti-obama.

Again, argue the ethics over whether or not they should have compensated him for his work, but don't imply they had legal grounds to do what they did.  They got away with it strictly because Myspace (NewsCorp) let them.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

Basically states that a celebrity has the right to limit the public use of her name, likeness and/or identity, particularly for commercial purpose.  Certainly not a "made up term".

The difference with MySpace is, as noted above, that we're dealing with user accounts and the establishment of online identity, and not just "posts about Barack Obama".

The Obama folks "did" nothing, in a legal sense.  They made a request, but it was MySpace that Solomonically granted it.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

I stand corrected on the made up term, but the definition given in wikipedia points to endorsements for commercial purposes-- this particular page wan't being used for commercial purposes at the beginning.    Further, I don't think this protection applies to politicians.  It certainly didn't shut down gwbush.com (not sure on name-- the anti-bush site).  

So while I acknowledge the existence of  "common-law right of publicity", Anthony wasn't violating it.

What I find galling is that excuses made for BO's staff imply Anthony was doing something wrong, ethical or illegal-- and he wasn't.  And even if he was doing something wrong, why were they complicit until it came time to negotiate for his continued service?

While the Obama folks did "nothing" in a legal sense, they certainly did something questionable in an  ethical sense.  They suggested negotiations, and then decided that rather than negotiate for services rendered and to be rendered, that they would just toss the service renderer to the side.

And to add insult to injury, some BO supporters are casting aspersions on this Anthony.  Rather than even take the halfway honest route of saying perhaps both sides were at fault, they make insinuations of illegality on Anthony's part because the campaign was too cheap to negotiate in good faith.

I guess that's the "New Kind of politics-- embrace the netroots, pick their pockets and screw them."


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

I'm not alleging that Anthony was doing anything wrong here; I'm just suggesting that MySpace likely acted properly in determining that the campaign had a superior claim on that particular URL and, that by not giving the campaign the friends list, also left Anthony with a real thing of value with which to negotiate here, and the Obama folks still needing to pay for it.

The deal with GWBush.com is that Bush sued in the wrong place -- he claimed it violated election law and went to the FEC, rather than going to ICANN on a domain name intellectual property dispute.  Also, that site was clearly parody, and that's protected particularly under the law.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

I would argue superior claim is not an inherent right on a directory name.  They got the name only because Myspace (News Corps) said so.  There is absolutely no compelling reason why Myspace (NewsCorps) would HAVE to do that, other than it being there rights as owner of the site.

Again, I could make on my own site a barackobama directory subtitle it "bad stuff about Obama" and the campaign would have no right to make me change it, or take jurisdiction over it.  It comes down to ownership and how ownership chooses to act.  One could also argue that 2 and a half years of maintenance of said directory gives one superior claim as well.  Anthony made this long before Obama explored a presidential bid.

I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that Obama's people are in any way in the right on this.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

Bit of a tangent, but I find the law interesting. If I have www.candidate-shills.com (and as per the example), I list candidate-shills.com/joebiden as a member, and in that membership page I say, 'This is the unofficial Joe Biden candidate-shill page,' then Biden can still demand that the name be given to his control?


by BingoL on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

Depends on a lot of factors, like likelihood of confusion.  It'd be settled through regular courts under tort law, and not via the ICANN/WIPO arbitration process.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

Better example: suppose I logged in here as "Senator Joe Biden," and Matt & Chris were cool with it.  And Biden sued the site.  Then what?


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

Oh, I've no idea, legally.

But I guess a more direct example would be if mydd decided to feature information about each candidate's positions with directories like www.mydd.com/joebiden and www.mydd.com/hillaryclinton and so forth. Then, each page would start with a disclaimer about this not being an official campaign site. I guess I'm pretty surprised to hear that there's a possibility they might be sued for that!

Though I suppose the question is, might people think you actually are the politician in question? So in your example you're pretending to be Joe Biden, using the screenname as a signature. And on myspace, there's a presumption, I suppose, that this really is Barack Obama. This has nothing to do with actual directory name--because nobody would think that www.sexylawyerpols.com/barackobama really was Obama. But it's simply because this is a social networking site. Right? And the question then becomes, does the presence of the disclaimer nullify the assumptions of the social networking mores?


by BingoL on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:46:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "common-law right of publicity" (none / 0)

I think it's the confusion over identity that's the key, which is what www.mydd.com/tags/hillaryclinton is assuredly fine, but a user here named "Hillary Clinton" had probably better be her.  And I think MySpace split the baby in half just fine here.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't a domain, and it isn't cybersquatting (none / 0)

To cybersquat you must generally go through a registrar to create  a unique name for a domain.  This guy setup a user account with a service.

Exactly.  What's more, whoever said cybersquatting was restricted to domains?

If you've got a url myspace.com/barackobama, people are naturally going to think you're barackobama.

That's cybersquating.


Independent Illinois Grassroots: IllinoisDemNet.com
by patachon on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 1)

39,000 for three months is not ridiculous. Dem consulants get 100K for less effective work. THe thing is we are not dealing with someone who hijacked a URL and hoped for a payday. He was encouraged by the Obama campaign early on because it benefited the Obama people. And as everyone seems to acknowlege, he did two things -

  1. He worked HARD
  2. His work was smart and effective.
  3. And he was clearly a supporter of Obama.
  4. Obama's people were made aware of this URL being owned by him and yet did nothing to convince him to give it up when they were not sure if it was such a valuable asset. So he made something out of nothing. Before he got in, the URL was pretty much useless to them. This is not a case where Obama's people wanted this URL only to see someone beat them to it with a hastily thrown together web site.

For the Obama people, even if they thought his money request was tacky, to reject this request outright is the height of stupidity. A lot more greedier people who are in it for purely the money are ROUTINELY employed by big profile candidates. So all of a sudden, they get stubborn in the name of "principle" over a measly 39 grand and it is not even hush money. At least they would be paying it to someone who did do work.

And obama supporters, stop being so touchy about any criticism. FWIW, this kind of attitude is not limited to the Obama campaign. I can see this scenario playing out just as easily in 75% of the campaigns out there where some volunteer gets paid no respect.

It is ridiculous to think MYDD admins are out to get Obama.


by Pravin on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

I don't know about the technical definition of cybersquatting.  But to me, it is grabbing a domain name early, sitting on it, and using it to blackmail the person who should be the owner.  This guy actually put a great deal of time and effort into organizing on a social networking site.  That, at least to me, is very different from exploiting the ability to register a domain name before someone else.

::shrug:: I don't really have that much of a dog in this fight. I just don't like the term "cybersquatting" for a guy who put in the time to actually help the candidate.


by dansomone on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How's about (none / 0)

a dollar a name?

If that seems reasonable, he should get $160,000.

But this isn't about what you think he should get, it is about what the market will support.

Clearly he provided a service that was valuable enough for the campaign to ask him to set a price for his services.

The truth is that they didn't pay him because they thought they could get away with it...and what does that say about the campaign?


by Nazgul35 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How's about (none / 0)

Why should Joe Anthony get a dollar a name?  

Why is that "reasonable"?

Reasonable is whatever the market agrees is reasonable.  In this case, Joe Anthony had no contract in place to demand $1/name.  It's a bit late for him to make financial demands at that level.  If that is his attitude, then his original working relationship with Obama was done under false pretenses.  If he'd set a price first, then the Obama campaign would have had the option to go to MySpace right at the start and pursue other legal options.  They could have seen if other websites would perform a similar service for a lower price.

Let's not forget that Obama is the product here.  The reason the myspace account go so many "friends" is almost entirely due to Obama, and almost no credit should go to Anthony.  

If I'm a candidate and I agree to let you volunteer to help me, that does not mean that I've made any kind of agreemtn to give you money.  That holds true regardless of how valuable the volunteer service is.  


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 1)

Ah, and so the response to this "demand" wasn't a counter-offer, but seizure of his website and no money at all? That sounds both professional and justified.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if you thought someone was blackmailing you (none / 0)

would you give a damn about 'fair' compensation?

The guy up-ended the rules of the game, and violated the understanding. 5, even 10k for ostensible volunteer work is one thing, but "40k or the highway"??


by jforshaw on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you thought someone was blackmailing you (3.00 / 1)

Ah, so now you are being blackmailed when you ask someone to name a price. That is an interesting definition of the term.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you thought someone was blackmailing you (none / 0)

If I had a nice car, and asked somebody to do a lube an oil job, and then I came back an hour later, and the guy was demanding $25,000 to get my keys back, I'm not sure that I would put forward a "counter-offer" of $50.  

Obama's people thought the offer of $39,000 was so absurdly out of proportion that they decided to change their mind about what to do.  

I'm still not seeing what the beef is with the campaign.  Would you have been happier if they had made a counter-offer of $1,000?  Or would such a low-ball offer have then been interpreted to be insulting.  

Obama's campaign was screwed no matter what they did once Anthony started making financial demands.  


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you thought someone was blackmailing you (3.00 / 1)

They told him to offer a number.  He did.  They didn't counter, they just decide to f*ck him rather than negotiate in good faith.  Blackmail would be if he made an intractable demand.

Jesus.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you thought someone was blackmailing you (3.00 / 1)

The Obama people had plenty of time to ask for the URL. They decided to do it only after his hard work made it a valuable asset. Until then, they were content to let some lowly volunteer do his cute lil Obama support thing and they could appear gracious. Without him or a similar volunteer like him, the URL doesn't become such an asset.


by Pravin on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you thought someone was blackmailing you (3.00 / 1)

His "hard work" made it a valuable asset?  No, what made it a valuable asset was the Obama campaign told MySpace that the URL was official in the eyes of the campaign.  After that happened, MySpace promoted it and traffic soared.

What made the URL valuable was Obama, not Anthony.


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

We don't know the details... Only one side of the story. There's a whole debate going on over at Daily Kos about whether he asked for money first, or if they asked him to name his price first...

He was a volunteer. And so am I. By definition, we don't get paid. I wish I could get paid, believe me. I'd love to quit my job and work full-time on the campaign.

And, I'm not suggesting he didn't put many hours into it. I don't have a MySpace account, so I actually don't understand what amount of work there could be.

You set up a group for R.E.M, for instance. Lots of people join the group because they like R.E.M. Not you, R.E.M.

This is a serious question. What did this guy do that is worth thousands of dollars?


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (3.00 / 1)

Who cares if there is a debate on this at Dailykos? Sifry's piece, which states that the Obama campaign asked him to name a price, has not be contradicted by the Obama campaign. No matter who asked first, the Obama campaign does not deny that it asked.

This isn't about volunteerism in general. They asked him to name a price. He did that. They cut off ties. That is bullshit.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

I mean that it is not clear even in the article and in his own statements what the actual timeline was...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll try to find the quote that's in question...


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

From the article...

-- Anthony's request to be compensated for all the work he was putting into Obama's Myspace page--anywhere from five to ten hours a day--was the final straw, apparently. After kicking around various ideas including hiring him or making him a consultant, the Obama people asked Anthony to propose a one-time consulting fee. In exchange he would give them control of the page, with credit for the work he had put into it. --

If you parse this particular paragraph, the only way to interpret it is that Anthony made the "request" first.

Maybe I'm missing something more concrete in the rest of the article. If so, I apologize for making this point over and over.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

The Obama campaign asked him to name an amount. Their counteroffer was to get MySpace to lock him out.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so imagine if you were an obama donor... (none / 0)

I dunno, I wrote a blog as a volunteer for a candidate, but they didn't get to tell me what to write or seize control. When they hired me they started a campaign blog and I started posting there.

Pretty similar situation, makes the above suggestion of paying the guy to be "MySpace Coordinator" sound pretty freaking obvious.


Progress is Personal | PCCC
by msnook on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

it goes even further than the netroots or campaigns or top-down vs bottom-up.... or even obama.

it sounds like the "cheap labor" republicans.

because it's not limited to to one party.  it's more like "cheap labor" elites.

if it's ok to treat allies like this, how is it ok to treat the rest of working americans? is it ok to treat them as "cheap labor"?

something's wrong and it's way too pervasive in our culture...


by selise on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:50:51 PM EST

here's the thing (none / 0)

Much of the value came from Anthony's claiming the right URL; had he been doing his work on some other MySpace page, it would not have grown like that.

$39K for three months of work comes to $55/hr or so.  That's a bit high.  But the Obama folks should want that friends list, and I hope they'll negotiate a number that will obtain it.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:52:38 PM EST

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

If I go on Domain.com and register a website named, say, Kevinhorvath.com, it takes me about 3 minutes to do so.  What would that "labor" be worth?  In nominal measures at $55 per hour it would translate into $2.75.  However, if a guy named Kevin Horvath made it into huge stardom in sports, the music world or politics, that domain could well become worth much more than the $2.75 labor cost for the time it took me to register the site.    

Worth is in the eye of the beholder, but usually dictated by the market.


by georgep on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 1)

Yes, but under the law, you don't generally get a windfall profit like that for grabbing something that shouldn't have been yours to begin with.  All sorts of rulings by ICANN.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 2)

He didn't ask for payment, they asked him to name a price.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's not what Micah wrote (none / 0)

As his volunteer workload grew to all hours, Anthony decided to email the Obama campaign asking to be paid in some way for his time. This set off discussions within the campaign about what to do, and ultimately they decided they had to control the page. Unfortunately for all concerned, the negotiations on how to do that were a disaster.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not what Micah wrote (3.00 / 2)

The Obama campaign asked him to price out the page, and then lied about how much money they had. It's quite shocking that you would defend this behavior.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:48:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not what Micah wrote (none / 0)

I didn't defend their not paying him, Matt.  Just correcting the sequence of events.

He created something of value, and they still don't have it.  They will pay for it, I'm sure.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not what Micah wrote (none / 0)

Adam,

They lied and bullied him, and you are passive aggressively defending their behavior.  Stop it.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not what Micah wrote (none / 0)

Again: I am not defending the "we're broke" claim, though we only have Anthony's version of that.  The Obama people need to get on top of this, tell their own story, and do it soon.

He asked them for money because of how much time this was taking.  They said, "How much?"  He quoted a ridiculous figure seemingly based on how much he gets billed out at for his paralegal work.  The Obama folks should have countered; they didn't.  That was lame.

But I think MySpace handled this right: Obama gets the URL, under the common-law right of publicity (more or less), but he doesn't get the friends network established, only the residual links to the page in the blogosphere.

There is a dollar value that accurately reflects what Anthony created.  I don't know what it is, but it's not the $39,000 for three months in 2007 multiplied all the way back to November 2004.  What I'd love to see is what that MySpace page actually looked like, and how much of his work was just clicking to approve hundreds of new members daily.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Are you saying that I can't go onto myspace and register a name that is not explicitly my own personal name?  Say, a fictitious name?  Or a name of a personality, not yet well-known, but perhaps in the future?   That does not seem correct.  I don't have a myspace site, but I looked at the registration page, and you are free to register with any name you wish (as long as the name is not already taken.)   How then is a myspace name legally YOURS, when someone else already registered it?   By virtue that you carry that name?   I don't think that line of reasoning is correct.  


by georgep on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's an example (none / 0)

Julia Fiona Roberts v. Russell Boyd, arbitrated by the WIPO Arbitration and Mediation Center, which handles domain name disputes.

A guy in Princeton registers "JuliaRoberts.com".  She sues to get the domain name back.  She wins, b/c famous people have a common-law trademark right in their own names, and this guy had no legitimate claim on the site.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 3)

He made it valuable with his hard work. Obviously, Obama's name was part of it. But this is not  a case of some lazy guy hijacking a anme.

Hell, campaigns would pay just as much to just get their hands on a list like that, let alone paying some professional hire to duplicate the work that went into it.

And it is funny that politicans get all pricinpled when it comes to paying off one of their own supporters for real work done but wont think twice of paying much more for an ineffective ad to some high priced consultant.


by Pravin on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Also, don't forget how donor's family members sometimes get gigs by virtue of their donation. I do not see politicans express any indignation at this kind of tacky behavior. THey just go along with it. There are so many compromises politicans go along with it and not forking over 39 Grand when real work was actually done is really a stupid time not to compromise.


by Pravin on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 1)

Umm, if you registered the domain and then turned it into something like this then I'd say you were due $2.75.  But this guy actually supported Obama, worked with the campaign, and helped to build Obama's public image of being popular on MySpace.  Not the same thing at all.


by Conquest on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

You misread.  I was actually making the point that you can't just look at pure labor cost the way Adam B did.  The built site and the following that frequented it has value well beyond someone's estimated hourly labor.  


by georgep on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd like to know (none / 0)

How many people on the Obama campaign are being paid $120,000K+ a year.  Because that's what the guy is asking for part-time work.  


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd like to know (none / 0)

No, he's not.

He's asking for a one tme project fee for services rendered and transfer of ownership of an item that has future value.

It's completely different and this analogy is bogus.


Youth to Power
by Mike Connery on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 1)

He started the page in november 2004. Admittedly it was a lot less work then, but still.

Also, some of comments upthread ("should I ask for compensation everytime I post for Obama") seem to willfully miss the point. This was an organization, a complex network of relationships, that an individual built, nutrured and helped build value around. The campaign wanted not only to take advantage (which was his intention), but to take it away from him.

This is all because they could not find it in themselves to trust anyone out of their control, and for whatever reason felt that they couldn't just hire this kid.


Me | My Work | Future Majority
by Josh Koenig on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

The 39K is what he said his work from January on was worth, based on an hourly rate he divined.

If the guy's working at a large LA law firm as a paralegal, he may be making $50-70K a year.  It's not worth that much just to have a MySpace guy on payroll; the campaign's current internet staff would suffice, and it's unclear whether Anthony even wanted to make that leap.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Adam,

You are completely missing the point.  The campaign asked him to name a price.  He did.  They lied, threatened him, and seized the work he did.  Seriously, how can you justify this?  


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (3.00 / 2)

He first asked to be paid.  They asked, "how much?"  He named a price.  They should have countered, and, in fact, they haven't seized his work -- just the URL -- since according to MySpace:
We felt under the circumstances that Senator Obama had the right to the URL containing his name and to the official campaign content that was provided, but that the user should retain the basic elements of the profile, including the friends who had been accumulated. Now that each Presidential candidate controls his/her own MySpace page, we don't expect this to be a problem again.

by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:40:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

What about all the links to the page?  This is an outrage.


by Matt Stoller on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Which goes back to my initial point: was the value of the page from his work on it, or from its being at www.myspace.com/barackobama?


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

both.

And that is another example of simple answers to simple questions. /atrios


by dansomone on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Is that worth $55/hr?


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

Who know's.  This is a new product.  I don't think hourly rates matter.  If they could have anticipated the outcome, they might have handled it better.  His complaints have spread and they still don't have control.

What is good will worth?  It is a guess.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's the thing (none / 0)

yeah, I'm confused why he's billing at his paralegal rate.

If I make $50/hour programming computers, and I decide to volunteer washing cars for a charity, and then it starts to become a big time-sink, and I ask for compensation, is it in any way sensible for me to ask for my programmer rate for work that is not programming?


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

Every day reader.  First time post here, but only because I think Bowers is being ridiculous.

Anyone that works in politics can tell you what kind of things $39K would buy.  That's two organizers for the length of a field campaign.  It's 2 quality mailings to a universe of about 40,000 households.

You can run a dominating State Rep. campaign in my state for that kind of money.

The guy wants $39K for what?  How hard is it to keep up a MySpace page?  I'd bet things have livened up these past few months.  However, giving him credit for 2 years of work is ridiculous.

It's not too hard to set up a networking page- a friend of mine created a fake one for me two weeks ago.

Moreover, what has Anthony's page done for the campaign, besides giving it some good press?  How many of these 160,000 can actually be activated into some type of useful role?  How many of these are even going to be Democratic Primary Voters?

Sure, it's geat what Anthony did.  But, people volunteer all the time for campaigns.  If he really wants compensation, I'd bet the Obama people would offer him a job.  Besides that, he's not owed a thing.

Bowers, I love what you try to do for the "netroots".  It's valuable, effective and informative.  At some point though, you need to do some metrics on just how effective the numbers of "blogviews" and online "friends" actually are.  Especially compared to something as simple as a doorknock.


by MORawn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:53:58 PM EST

26 million in receipts for Q1 (3.00 / 2)

Obama will raise 100 million for the year..

is it not worth 39K to not have the bad press of seizing a website?

I'd say hell yes


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 26 million in receipts for Q1 (none / 0)

Hell, my respect for Obama has increased by his behavior.  I don't know if standing firm = bad publicity.  


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

In a presidential campaign, I'd take an effective myspace organizer over two field organizers in a blink of an eye. This would probably be the most efficient expenditure of the campaign, instead Obama's campaign looks like shit.


by Bob Brigham on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

I'd take an effective myspace organizer over two field organizers in a blink of an eye.
Then, I'd love to run a campaign against you.
This would probably be the most efficient expenditure of the campaign...
I hope not, or their burnrate will be through the roof. It's not like Obama isn't already paying people for to organize for him online. Sure Obama (and Clinton and Edwards and Romney and Giuliani and McCain) is gonna raise a ton of money, but that doesn't mean he should spend it frivously.

Oh, as for Obama's campaign "looking like shit". I'm sure they can figure out how to spin "a cybersquatter trying to extort them for $39K" to most of the American public.
by MORawn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

They did try to spin it before it was even an issue.  The guy got pissed and called them on it.  Now the whole blogosphere and other websites think they screwed it up.


by Conquest on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Sure Obama has other people, hell I had dinner Saturday night with Orton (at a great little place in San Diego's Little Italy). But they still don't have enough people and I wouldn't be surprised to see them double or even triple their internet team by Labor Day.

This isn't a story for most of the American public, but I think it is clear from the coverage of this online that prominent opinion leaders have concluded that the campaign looks like shit.


by Bob Brigham on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

So, let Anthony join the online team, then.

I'm an Edwards fan and donor. I don't really trust Obama's centricism and Lieberhetoric. But the only thing clear from the posts and numbers being thrown around is that some prominent opinion leaders have their heads stuck up their asses.
by MORawn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

just let Anthony redirect his "friends" (none / 0)

to JohnEdwards.com

seems fair to me...


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

The guy wants $39K for what?  How hard is it to keep up a MySpace page?

The question is really "how hard is it to maintain a community with 150,000+ members."

I helped found an organization in 2003/04 that built a community of only 60,000. It was more than 1 FTE to keep up with.

If Obama's people could have built a trusting relationship with Anthony, they could probably have paid the $40k (or less) and kept him on board to maintain the site for the duration. But they couldn't trust him, and they wanted to take the community over/away. Stupid move.


Me | My Work | Future Majority
by Josh Koenig on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

It's not a "community" of 150,000. It's a MySpace group that people joined. People join lots of groups.

It's not like this was DemocracyForAmerica.com or something...

He's not doing server admin...

I honestly don't understand where the labor is. Moderating of comments? Making use of the hideous MySpace widgets and unappealing aesthetic sense?

Can someone please explain this?

(By the way, my full-time job is as a Webmaster of an online community and fundraising site).


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

Do you get many emails? Do you respond to all of them?

Clearly not anywhere near all 150,000 people are active, but a significant subset of them will have at least one or more communication with the owner of the profile. It's real work -- organizing -- to keep all those contacts alive.


Me | My Work | Future Majority
by Josh Koenig on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

and he still has them and the content. Obama did not take any content or friends. just the url


by dpg220 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

The money offer was for the whole deal, not the URL.

The fact that they couldn't work it out and Obama's campaign chose to start over is what calls their competency into question.


Me | My Work | Future Majority
by Josh Koenig on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

They told him to name a price. Then he did that, instead of responding with a counter-offer, they stopped talking to him and cut off all ties.

The point isn't the $44K. The point is that they asked him to name a price, and then never responded to his offer, and instead gave him nothing. If they had a problem with $44K, then they should have suggested something else.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Sure, Obama's campaign looks pretty lame for asking for a price, getting one and the not giving a counteroffer when they were dissatisfied.

But, I take issue with your headline. "Fair compensation" is nowhere near the money Anthony asked for.
by MORawn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 0)

So they should counter instead of being dicks.  Maybe he was asking too much.  So what?  That is what negotiation is.  I'm sure he was expecting a counter.

But rather than counter in good faith and acknowledge his work, they label him greedy and decide to alienate him.  Good move there....


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's right (none / 0)

It's also, what, about 36 minutes of David Axelrod's fee?

The Big Consultants have to get paid, after all.

He didn't want compensation. He was happy running the MySpace group. It was the Obama campaign that asked him for a price as they moved to usurp a grassroots operation.


by kos on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

I don't think it's clear from the article who asked what first. All of this is speculation and he said/he said from what I can see...


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (3.00 / 1)

I dunno how relevant the "who asked first" thing is.

Anthony has been working on this site since 2004.  And the campaign had been collaborating with him as well (which makes the "squatting" accusations laughable).  Anthony was receptive to their requests and worked with them.  But at some point the campaign decided they no longer had a need for Mr Anthony.  Now whether Anthony said "well if you don't want me, but you want my community,  then you should buy me out" or whether Obama said "we don't want you, how much will it cost to buy your community" is irrelevant.  Obama isn't entitled to Anthony's myspace account or the fruits of his labor.  Oddly though many Obama supporters seem to believe the opposite.  Weird

Anthony had something Obama wanted.  A site, a community, a brand, a grass roots presence.  Whatever the case, Obama wanted something that wasn't his.  He should pay for it or go make his own.  That is what is relevant.

Obama instead decided it would be easier to get News Corp to use eminent domain rather than go deal with Anthony on the level.  And it makes sense for News Corp, since if Obama does win, they might need something from a President Obama.  

Everyone wins, except the guy who actually did the work.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

That's not what MySpace determined, and it's weird to call it "eminent domain" when they own the whole site:  Obama only has the URL; Anthony has the friends list.  


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (3.00 / 1)

News Corp (MySpace) of course sided with the guy who might be president and they (NewsCorp) might need a favor from him one day.  There was no upside to them siding with Anthony (doubtful he would sue) --  Just because News Corp determined it doesn't mean it's just.  In fact the terms of service state that you can not mis-represent yourself as someone else.  Anthony never did that.  He made it clear that the site was an unoffical site -- just like the tons of other fan sites out there that use the object of their affections name.  I fail to see what Anthony did that warranted Obama being given the URL other than not being a powerful person like Obama.  I don't really see any violation of the TOS.

Just because the ruling entity made a determination one way or another doesn't mean that determination was the just/proper one.  (See the latest partial birth abortion ban ruling by the supreme court)

It is analogous with some Eminent domain because the Obama campaign decided to go to myspace to have the account taken from the person who owns it without compensation.  Just like when private developers go to a controlling entity like the gov't to have private property seized to be redeveloped. (See the Kelo case)  Granted it isn't the best analogy -- but its close.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:22:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

Under the TOS argeement on the site, a user must represent and warrant that:

the posting of your Content on or through the MySpace Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person.
Using /barackobama violated his publicity rights under common law.

And, again, MySpace didn't really side with Obama, since they only gave him the URL, but not the friends list accumulated.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

So then what you are saying is that under the TOS any fan sites could effectively be shut down because it violates "publicity rights"?  I think you are over-simplifying and wrong.  

Publicity or Personality rights protect the commercial use of someones name.  This was obviously not commercial use.

In fact even commercial use protection of Personality Rights tend to be trumped by 1st amendment protections -- and political speech (which this was) is obviously a protected form of speech.

And, again, MySpace didn't really side with Obama, since they only gave him the URL, but not the friends list accumulated.

True -- to a point.  Anyone who had Anthony's site bookmarked or any links to it from blogs or other sites now go to Obama's site though.  But I will grant that they didn't give him the account and its contacts.  In essence they gave him the username and a clean account.

But I still think it was a bad call.  NewsCorp should have backed their users over the desires of Obama's campaign.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

There's a difference between what you're allowed to say, which is protected, and where you're allowed to say it.  Under common-law rights, the actual person likely has the right to the "official" URL ahead of a fan, but the fan can use any number of other sites for her activities.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

Under common-law rights, the actual person likely has the right to the "official" URL ahead of a fan,

Publicity rights, which you cited, don't hang upon whether or not the person you are writing about wants the exact URL you currently occupy.  The only claim to publicity rights would be if Anthony was using obamas name for commercial use or if the content mis-represented the author of the content as Obama himself (or an official representative thereof).

What constitutes the "official" URL??  Who designates it so?  The person who wants someone else's account name?

If I had an email account barackobama@yahoo.com, should Obama be able to claim it from me because he wants it to send out solicitations -- by claiming publicity rights??   What if Anthony had /obamaforpresident or /barachhusseinobama and obama wanted those as his official site?

Under your reasoning, Obama would be able to take any url that was associated with his name any time he wanted it.  That's a ridiculous assertion.  There is no common law protection to the url someone demands.  

The cyber-squatting laws deal with domain names, so I really have no clue which laws you think give anyone the ability to take any "official" (whatever that means) URL that is associated with their name.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

There is a ton of legal protection for such requests.  Here's a big catalog of all the domain name proceedings already resolved.  For instance, the 2002 decision in which Pamela Anderson was awarded the rights to pamelaanderson.com, pamelaanderson.net and pamelalee.com from fansite owners.

And I'm just saying here that MySpace applied the same principles to their own site.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

You are comparing apples to oranges.

A domain name is not an account name.

But even despite that, those decisions involved Registration and Use in Bad Faith

From the pam anderson citation you provided:

In this respect, Complainant reiterates that the only use that Respondent is making of the domain names at issue is to divert Internet users contacting the sites under those domain names to Respondent's own commercial website "Celebrity1000." Complainant alleges that prior Panels have held that such use of domain names is not an offering of bona fide goods or services.

In addition, Complainant suggests that Respondent is using the domain names in bad faith by intentionally attracting visitors to the websites under the domain names at issue for commerce; in full awareness of Complainant's celebrity, Respondent is seeking to capitalize and trade-off on Complainant's fame by re-directing Internet traffic to Respondent's website

Complainant adds that, in its opinion, Respondent registered the domain names at issue for the purpose of disrupting the business of Complainant in her own online ventures and to prevent Complainant from using her trademarks in a corresponding domain name herself.....Such conduct is, in the view of Complainant, to be deemed to fall within the form of bad faith identified in the Policy. In this context Complainant refers to an earlier WIPO case

Despite your erroneous reading of said laws, even the "precedents" you cite depend on the accused acting in bad faith.

None of these arguments apply even remotely to the issue at hand.  Anthony was not acting in bad faith and in fact was using the site in a way consistent with the first amendment -- he wasn't using the site to profit off of Obama's name or to mislead anyone.

So basically, Obama wanted a URL that someone else had and was LEGITIMATELY using.

And his defenders are here contorting themselves in every which way they can to defend his actions.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

And that's just one case.  The JuliaRoberts.com case below just rested on the likelihood of confusion, that visitors might wrongly believe it was an official site.  Bad faith isn't necessary.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

Maybe -- but again -- you are still comparing apples to oranges --  registering a domain name is quite different than having a username/account name on a site.

Just like http://barackobama.blogspot.com/ doesn't have to be affiliated barack obama, so it is with a myspace page.  Is Obama entitled to barackobama.blogspot.com as well?  Or anything with the barackobama@yahoo.com in it?

Rational people say no.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (3.00 / 1)

From Blogger.com's content policy rules:
Identity Theft and Privacy. Blogs that misleadingly appropriate the identity of another person are not permitted.

by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (3.00 / 1)

More.  Yahoo Mail terms of service:

You agree to not use the Service to:

... impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, a Yahoo! official, forum leader, guide or host, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

Exactly!

Obama could have told Anthony to pound sand and Anthony would have been fine with that -- he would have continued to maintain an unofficial site (as is his right).  It was his site after all.  But Obama wanted the site and also didn't want to have to compensate him for his work.  He wanted a grassroots site -- without the actual grassroots involved.

The dollar amount is irrelevant.  No one here has a right to decide what my time and effort is worth.  That is why negotiations occur.  If you think someone is charging too much then look for a cheaper provider.  

But to go back door and take the site from him by6 brute force and to offer him nothing in return for his work (however much or little it was) was a bully move.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

EVERYBODY needs to read the other side of the story before they start posting stuff like this.  "Anthony would have been fine with that - he would have continued to maintain an unofficial site (as is his right)".  

At the time the financial demand was made,

a) the Obama campaign had already worked with MySpace to certify the URL as official

b) after that happened, Anthony changed the password, essentially changing the agreement with the Obama campaign under which all the traffic was going to the site.


by RickD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's right (none / 0)

Dude.  Are you begrudging Axelrod lunch at "21"?


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's just not true, Markos (none / 0)

He did want compensation first:
It's around this point that the informal working relationship between Anthony and the Obama campaign went sour. The exact chronology of events is in dispute but the general trajectory is clear. As his volunteer workload grew to all hours, Anthony decided to email the Obama campaign asking to be paid in some way for his time. This set off discussions within the campaign about what to do, and ultimately they decided they had to control the page. Unfortunately for all concerned, the negotiations on how to do that were a disaster.

by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's just not true, Markos (none / 0)

Why is that an issue?  Are you of the opinion that people shouldn't be paid for their time?

They were coming to him and asking him to do stuff -- and he decided that since the workload is becoming more cumbersome and since they are already working with me, why not pay me for some of my time?

For several weeks, they collaborated on a daily basis, with the Obama campaign offering advice to Anthony on how to improve the site, sharing content with him, helping him place a fundraising widget on the site, etc. He in turn gave the campaign password access to the profile in case they wanted to tweak it quickly, but they made little use of it and relied mainly on Anthony to maintain the site

Obama could have said no thanks we don't need any more employess and in turn we will no longer ask you to do stuff for us -- anything you do is of your own choice and we wont request anything  -  but they didn't.  They in fact then inquired about what terms he would want to come aboard or to buy out his site.

People need to stop acting like there is something wrong with someone asking to be compensated when a part time solo endeavor turns into a working relationship with a campaign.


by avagias on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's just not true, Markos (none / 0)

I absolutely agree that he was providing a service worth paying for, and that Obama's people fouled up the negotiation.  We're just arguing over how to evaluate this.


by Adam B on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Yep, which is why campaigns and politics are primarilly loaded with the inheritor class and trust fund brats. No money in it.

Of course actually there's big, big money in it. But first you have to survive on no money volunteering...and no, you don't "get offered a job". That's for connected kidz of donors and players up front. Otherwise you freebie. And unless you freebie for almost full time, you never get an offer.

Of course, the only people who can freebie get checks from mommy and daddy.

Then when you finally get an offer, its for chump change (as you describe). Like anyone can live on that, even with roomates.

Again, how do you do it? Checks from mommy and daddy.

Eventually you'll start making enough to survive...but by then anyone from the middle class or under has been weeded out nicely.


by ElitistJohn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

This would be a good argument if it was true.  There are plenty of people who, because they are passionate about a campaign, volunteer in all their spare time.  Between the evenings and the weekend they can spend 40+ hours a week at campaign HQ volunteering.  If they are of great use they do get offered jobs.  You are right the jobs don't pay incredibly well, they pay for food and maybe housing if you room with several people.  The people I know who take these jobs aren't from the "inheritor class" and they aren't "trust fund brats," they are people who are passionate about a campaign.

I find your post personally offensive as I have volunteered for a number of Democratic candidates.  Often in excess of 40 hours a week.  I am not supported by my parents.


by Obama08 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the whole thing was handled badly (3.00 / 1)

on both sides.  As a fellow paralegal, I can see where he came up with his dollar figures.  Unfortunately, he forgot that he wasn't working as a paralegal on the Obama site...


I know I'm only a little bear, but surely things can be better...
by jamesbayers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:58:52 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

But they offered to pay him. Up until then he was fine with not being paid, and, according to him, probably still would be had they handled things differently and not treated him as if he was simply doing his duty to them.

And the guy isn't just someone making Obama-supporting posts somewhere. He provided a locus for Obama-supporters and actually created a lot more supporters, attention, energy and goodwill.

And, yes, maybe all 160,000 of the friends on the account are not politically active. Nevertheless, they are rabid fans who, given the 10-12 I know, plan on voting for him and chat you up about him all the time. So it bleeds over off the net too. Moreover, given the nature of the Internet, even though there are only 160,000 registered users,  you can bet that buzz is surging through more websites and is well known by a great number of Internet users. Creating this kind of narrative, of an energetic movement, one that everyone likes, is what campaigns try so hard to do on the ground. That the Internet can help with that is probably just something they have not really fully grapsed. Hence, this unbelievably unpragmatic maneuver.


by captain furious on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:58:52 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

I think dansomeone and Robert P have it right above. I was typing my previous post and did not see their posts.


by captain furious on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:01:38 PM EST

He was a volunteer... (none / 0)

...plain and simple...

I've probably put in well over 300 hours into Barack Obama's campaign over the last six months...

Including setting up and managing a website, organizing meetings, making phone calls, typing handwritten, hard to read email addresses, etc. etc. etc.

I would never expect, nor would I ever ask, for compensation.

It may have been better PR to pay the guy, but it never should have come to that.

Having said that, though, I'd be very willing to sell http://vermontersforobama.org for $49,000.

And hey, I desperately wish that there was a way I could get paid full time to work for progressive causes. I sincerely wish there were more opportunities for us netroots addicts to get paid to do what we do for free. But, once you do it for free, there's little motivation for anyone to pay you.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:03:03 PM EST

Re: He was a volunteer... (3.00 / 3)

Did the Obama campaign offer to pay you? Did they ask you to name a price? Did they rely on your work for an important project? Did they then cut off all ties with you after you did what they asked?

Look at the specifics of this situation. It should not have turned out that way.
by Chris Bowers on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was a volunteer... (none / 0)

Again, as I said above, I don't think it's clear from only one side of the story what actually transpired.

Any how do we know that this guy isn't a kook, to some extent? Not saying he is, but hey, the internet's full of them. Paralegals, too.

But, I agree, that from a PR standpoint, this was not a good end result for the Obama campaign.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was a volunteer... (none / 0)

Check out the new Obama my space page. the friends list is grwoing fast. This might not be as bad as you guys try to make it. Heckuva job guys


by kekuta on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

Matt,chris and the others needs to understand that the blogosphere is only a small piece of the Netroot...For exemple, we know the blogs tealts toward Edwards heavily, but yet, Obama has raised more money online from small donor then anyone in this primary and he's the only candidate that can get over 100K myspace/facebook users to sign up to their site.

Matt and chris thinks that this little fuss that bthey are making will crush obama, but if you look at the newly myspace page,all those people that signed up under joe's barackobama page, are all coming back in a faster rate...So how much work did this guy really do? or was the name of barackobama the real worker here??

All in all, Obama really couldn't care about matt and chris bashing him and this is nothing new ffor him.If you expect him to apology to you and the blogosphere, then you are dreaming.Obama and the blogosphere arent on the same page and he's still able to get more grassroot support then Edwards, the blog's favorite.

I know that the fact that Obama is really the grassroot guy, really hurt people like Kos and Matt because he's doing it without your help.All you guys do is bash him, but he's still the grassroot guy.


by JaeHood on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Perhaps that is part of the point, though, too. Why not pay volunteers who do outstanding work and put in lots of time? Which is really another way of saying, why not hire good people to work for the campaign even if they are not so-called "professional political operatives"? Especially if the work they do is more effective?

Which is really just a way of reiterating MAtt's post, I guess.


by captain furious on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:05:33 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Because they have already demonstrated a willingness to do it for free...


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:08:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's the thing (none / 0)

Joe Anthony was never asked to make a myspace page for Barack Obama. Let me put it another way.

Joe Anthony made a myspace page using Barack Obama's name for the url, without authorization.

Obviously he didn't have malicious intent and yes he did make it clear that it was an unofficial page.

Joe Anthony got to keep his page and its contacts. Barack's page has been redesigned and he already has over 17,000 friends. Plus it looks better.

The truth is, Obama has interns who could have made what Joe Anthony made and they wouldn't have charged a dime. So why the hell would he pay someone 40k? And don't you agree that Obama had a right to the myspace page with his name?


by potus2020 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:24:59 PM EST

Re: Here's the thing (none / 0)

The truth has nothing to do with all these post. It is all about the benjamins.


by kekuta on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's the thing (none / 0)

In order:

He made it in 2004.

Why would he NEED authorization?

The campaign was totally into working with him and the 160,000 friends on that unofficial page.

I'm sure they sent word out to people to repopulate the page quick.  Otherwise it's an even more embarassing situation.

They could have, but they didn't so they worked with him as long as it was free then dicked him over.  No I don't agree he has a right.  What if there are there Jerry Robertson's in the world.  Who is entitled to the page? And besides, it's a f*ing high school yearbook with mp3s.


by Rooktoven on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Response to Bowers' Update.... (none / 0)

Speaking of sophistry, from what I can see, only one person suggested you wouldn't write this diary if it were another candidate.

That's certainly not my issue. And again, again, we don't know who asked what first.

And also again, again, nobody seems to be able to explain why what he was doing was "delivering an incredibly important service to the campaign."


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:29:27 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 2)

Personally, I think Edwards has still treated the netroots the best.  He is still my favorite candidate.

Longterm though, Stoller's point about control is what is relevant.  

If something is under the guise of being authorized or vetted by a campaign, it becomes theirs, so control is necessary, given the "gotcha" nature of politics.  

So candidates either have to have a hands-off relationship (we love what that guy is doing!) if, if they want to take control of a big movement created by someone else, RECOGNIZE THE VALUE THERE, and COMPENSATE ACCORDINGLY.

Atrios says 50K is "chump change".  Certainly, 160000 names (not committed people, but even just the names) and the positive enthusiasm generated are worth at least as much as some consultant's media buy percentage right??  A media consultant gets 3 percent of a 10 million dollar media buy, that's what?

$300,000K!!!

For much much much less work, than what Joe Anthony did.


by jc on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:40:12 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

For much much much less work, than what Joe Anthony did.
You demonstrate a great understanding of the labor involved in making a commercial and in creating a MySpace page.

YOU ARE A WINNER!
by MORawn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:43:16 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Educate me then.  You commission a commercial, the commercial gets produced, you negotiate and pay rates for that - how long does that take?

I have a MySpace page, by the way.  Easy to setup yes.

But there has been a consistent, daily interaction with those 160000 users, for two years.  

I would bet that, Joe Anthony has done more work than a campaign consultant negotiating airtime.

I may be wrong - but I would bet that way.


by jc on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 3)

The point Chris is making, is that campaigns spend enormous amounts of money raised by the netroots on traditional services.

This was a new kind of thing evolving.  Yes Anthony was a volunteer.  But he created a value laiden site that was used by Obama's campaign as a strategy to hype.  Obama's campaign wanted control.  

This issue is not how much this lowly guy should be paid.  The issue is that they thought he should get something and they wanted it cheaply.

Here was a new type of expense on the internets.  they could have negotiated and paid.  Instead they got technical and cheap.  All the debate in the world doesn't change the fact that they didn't see value in what he did.  Chris is saying that the Democratic campaigns need to see value in new "products" that "volunteers" have created.  

How much value has MyDD and Dkos created for the campaigns?  How much do they pay on the blogs vs. a TV ad buy?  

This incident reveals the larger issue of not valuing work on the internets.  Right now there is little thought given on how to compensate people that started out because of a passion.  Bill Gates did not know what his idea would lead to.  We have no idea where some of these evolving structures on the internet will lead.  However Obama's campaign wanted that site.  Morally they needed to negotiate in good faith.  Hourly rates are irrelevant.  

The final question is whether Democrats can support those who have supported them.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:52:01 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

It really strikes me as a bit off to describe this guy as a "volunteer." I've seen this a lot in other comments---not the parent post--to excuse/explain why its okay to pretend that we're talking about something without any inherent value.

Not being paid to create something is not the same as being a volunteer. This guy, independently, set up and created a myspace presence for two years hyping Obama--way before there was a campaign to volunteer for. He accommodated certain requests from the campaign, yes, but it doesn't seem to have ever been under their direction. This guy didn't walk into campaign headquarters to phone bank and instead get assigned to create Obama's myspace presence.

I thing I would put him in the same category as the guys that created the Lieberman/Bush Kiss float in Connecticut. Let's say that, god forbid, Ned had demanded the Kiss float guys turn the float over to the campaign for official use. Or let's be more fair than that, let's say the campaign simply wanted to coordinate and direct the kiss float activities. Would it not be fair to suggest that turning a previously independent project into an official campaign organ was worth some sort of compensation?

One sentiment that I am hearing is along the lines of "anyone could have started a myspace page up for barack obama and built it up." But anyone didn't--this guy did, and he spent two years doing it. Anyone could have built a paper mache bust of Joe Lieberman smooching George Bush--but only one person (a team of people?) did it, driving it around the state of Connecticut to great effect. These things have value--both inherent value in what they offer to the campaign in the future, and the value of the amount of work put in, and the very fact that the work was put in at all.

The bottom line is that--unlike campaign volunteers--these guys have the right to continue to control the fruits of their efforts. A lot of times that right is worth money. Sure, walk into a campaign headquarters and sign up to do something with campaign resources and under campaign direction and you give up that right. But that's not what happened here--this guy's independent project has value to the Obama campaign. In my mind the only question is what monetary figure you would on that value.

Now, once you start talking money you're more or less talking about one party giving up control and the other party buying control. So what's control over a two year running web presence worth? To me, this becomes another question: "had we been paying for this like we would have had to do, instead of riding some do-gooder willing to do it for free, what would it have cost us?" More than 39,000 dollars.


by loyalson on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

workers of the netroots, unite! (none / 0)

I have a brief post about this problem on my blog today, called MySpace Workers Local 160,000.  It discusses a few ways in which social networking "workers" can get justly compensated, including unionization, acting only on websites which build compensation into their infrastructure, or starting consulting firms and charging campaigns for the service of building up a good online community.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:55:39 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 3)

It seems to me one thing that is running through this whole conversation is left-wing puritanism and the idea that making more than $25,000 a year is somehow dirty especially relating to political work.  No one would ever admit to feeling that way because it sounds very small when you say it out loud, but you can sense it running through so much of the left.  And it just provides cover to the liberal elites who won't pay grassroots/netroots activists what they are worth.  (The same way honest libertarians provide cover to business elites)

The campaign offered to compensate him.  He decided he wanted to be compensated like a consultant.  Like the ones who have been getting rich losing elections for Democrats.  $39,000 is not that much money in those circles.


by Marc Brazeau on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:56:56 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 5)

Joe Anthony built the Obama MySpace site as a volunteer because he supported Obama. Obviously, his intention was not to use it to make money because he clearly was in no position to raise money on Obama's behalf and did not attempt to do so.

In contrast to Anthony's volunteer effort, the Obama campaign clearly saw the site as a REVENUE-GENERATING ASSET that it could use to solicit campaign contributions from the 160,000 people Anthony atttracted to his community.

What is deeply troubling about Obama's conduct here is that he couldn't cut a fair and honest business deal that fairly compensated Anthony for the time he had spent building an asset that Obama wanted to take control of, namely the URL and the 160,000 supporters (who are now potential contributors to Obama's campaign) that Anthony had gathered together on his own initiative two years ago, on his own time, using his own resources (computer, Internet access, etc.) that he paid for out of his own pocket.

That Obama went over Anthony's head to the management of MySpace to cut Anthony out of the picture speaks incredibly poorly of Obama's business and political ethics and provides a dismal picture of what we could expect from an Obama presidency, assuming the early reports we have are correct.

It also shows that money-mongering political candidates like Obama have no understanding of the progressive netroots or respect for the pioneers who are bringing its potential to life.

Well, I have a message for them. You will reap what you sow. It may take awhile for us to figure out how to fund progressive netrooters' activities, compensate political volunteers like Anthony who create revenue-producing assets, and protect their good works from outright thefts like this one. But we will overcome -- with lessons like this never to be forgotten.


Nancy Bordier is the founder of Citizens' Winning Hands (www.citizenswinninghands.net)
by Nancy Bordier on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:00:03 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

Why didn't Obama secure his domain name on MySpace a long time ago?  Because he was oblivious about these things?  Considering his celebrity status, which dates back to 2004, and his purported appeal to the youth, and all the rumours of a Presidential run, why was he willing to let someone else have that domain?  It's MY Space, not a website you have to pay to maintain.

If control over your image is a priority (which it is for a politician), why not either grab up the MySpace page first or approach the person who has your MySpace page before now?  Why wait so long to decide you have a right to it?

Answer: Because it didn't have any value until all those supporters were attached to it.  It's not the domain which is desirable, but the audience.  And building an audience takes work.  Why not sit back and let someone do all the work for free instead of paying staff to bring in all those supporters?  

And that's fine.  Perfectly fine.

But they did not leave it at that.  They turned around and after all the work had been done, wanted control of that site.  Supposedly because of some factually inaccurate information.  Then why not either ask that information be corrected or just have the page make it clear it was an unofficial site?  Why the need to take over the site?

That's the thing.  

There is so little precedent for this, but I will compare it to the Dean and DFA fansites or spin-off sites people set up in 2003-2004.  Deaniacs and DFAers were more than happy to bend over backwards for the campaign or PAC they supported, but had someone from Burlington called up and demanded their site be handed over to them, people would have been pissed.  The netroots may agree to support someone, but to answer to them?  But that never became a huge problem because DFA came up with Blog for America itself and everyone gathered there.  It is Obama's campaign's own fault they lacked the foresight or desire to use MySpace themselves for their youth outreach.  They would have had control from the beginning.  If anything, they should pay the person for that.  

Does the kid deserve so much money?  I don't know, but I have little sympathy for someone who makes the news for raising an obscene amount of money and then tells a clearly hard-working and dedicated volunteer they don't have enough money to pay them.  I mean, it looks bad.  I don't think this gives all volunteers license to demand payment.  Even this person knew going into it, he was not going to get paid.  But once the campaign demands control over your work, your creation, how is that volunteering anymore?  Volunteers work freelance.  They don't have any contractual agreement with a campaign.  Most don't.  Fan sites certainly don't.  

I don't buy the idea that Obama has a right simply because his name is in the URL.  Welcome to the wonderful world of cyberspace.  

Basically, all this gives me a bad feeling about Obama.  

Yes, people are willing to work for no pay, give you a percent of their paycheck, and support your campaign.  But if you don't at least return the favor with respect, acknowledgement of their hard work, and acknowledgement that you are indebted to them, that goodwill will not last forever.  It begins to look like people might be being taken for granted, taken advantage of.  

Lessons:

If you think you have a right to the domains which include your name, go snatch them up right now.
If you are a politician, do the same thing.  At least this guy was running a pro-Obama site.
If you want to reach out to the on-line community and net-roots, take the initiative yourself, don't wait for someone else to do it.
If you don't want people asking you for obscene amounts of money, don't draw attention to the obscene amounts of money you have.  
And
Never give out your password.


by poemless on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:19:47 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)

Or don't start websites and myspace pages under a famous persons name and expect to be paid if they want to take control of it.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Wow. Let me get this straight. Democratic campaigns overpay idiotic consultants, and, to do so, raise tons of cash from very wealthy people. Obviously, this is a problem. But when a volunteer wants to be overpaid, that's OK?

Amazing. It's not Obama treating the netroots as an ATM--it's about some people demanding that Obama be an ATM for the netroots.


by Gibreel111 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:39:18 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

How was his work stolen?  Many people have asserted that it was stolen, but he got to keep all the content created as well as the 160,000 friends.  The Obama campaign did a cost-benefit analysis and probably realized (correctly) that they could do a lot better on the site on their own.  Given how many friends they have now, it is likely they will reach and pass the 160,000 mark in under a month.

People who really excel and do a great job should be paid.  The Obama campaign should have negotiated with him and paid him maybe $10,000 tops.  I think a personal call with the Senator would have been more than fair compensation.  The fact is though that there are many people who are willing to volunteer a great deal of time for free.  Students for Barack Obama is an entirely volunteer branch of the campaign.  They have over 70,000 committed supporters.  These are people who meet on a regular basis and volunteer.

It appears from reading the article that he decided his work was of monetary value and approached the campaign.  They really should have done a better job of negotiating with him.  However, if a volunteer decides to stop volunteering for you and you don't want to pay them, you sever ties.  I think there was some value to the work that Joe Anthony put in, but they were right not to hire him.


by Obama08 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:48:49 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

I take exception to your phrase that Anthony "got to keep all the content created as well as the 160,000 friends".

Here's what was in Micah Sifry's piece cited above:

"Was this action fair to Joe Anthony? MySpace itself has come up with a positively Solomonic solution to that question, promising to restore Anthony's network of 160,000 friends as soon as he picks a new url for whatever unofficial Obama fan page he may care to create."

Thanks a pile, Obama and MySpace, for offering to give back to Anthony what he already owns, minus the URL that all the members of the community use to access the site.

There are important legal issues here that need to be investigated, but offhand I suspect that Anthony's website was improperly misappropriated by Obama in complicity with MySpace.

Aside from the ownership issues involved, the notion that a buyer in a business transaction has the right to seize the asset in question if the seller doesn't agree to the compensation offered is more than dubious.

More profoundly, the commercialization of the electoral process by candidates who become shills of the corporations that finance their campaigns and enter into complicity with media moguls who buy up social networking sites to somehow make money off of them is a shocking bastardization of what the democratic process is all about.

Just because Osama and MySpace have deep corporate-funded pockets does not translate into legitimate or effective control or influence over grassroots voters and what they think and who they vote for. "Volunteers" who build political communities and in the process create potentially revenue producing assets like the one Anthony created are eventually going to dwarf their influence.

By scamming Anthony out of his website, Obama has crashed and burned in his maiden voyage with the progressive netroots. He has made folks like Anthony look more and more like a new genre of volunteer activists who have the potential to become more powerful grassroots catalysts than the candidates themselves -- and get themselves paid for their efforts to boot. Stay tuned!  


Nancy Bordier is the founder of Citizens' Winning Hands (www.citizenswinninghands.net)
by Nancy Bordier on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama has forgotten how he got where he is (3.00 / 1)

As a strong Obama senatorial primary supporter, I have been saddened to see the road Obama has gone down since the progressive movement won him that primary. As soon as he was elected, he abandoned his former allies and started endorsing and campaigning for the tired machine hacks who had tried to stop him, and hiring cast-off Daschle losers like Gibbs and his Washington Chief of Staff.

The Chicago papers have already started to take Obama to task for not acting like Obama

http://www.suntimes.com/news/miller/3604 29,CST-EDT-miller27.article

Speaking of Obama, it might be interesting to watch what the presidential candidate does in next year's primary. Obama refused to endorse any of the insurgent candidates this year, sticking with the Daley Machine and openly endorsing faded hack Ald. Tillman in her losing race to Pat Dowell, who is truly a breath of fresh air.

It's more than a little ironic that a self-styled ''new politics'' guy like Obama has no strong ties to the newly elected aldermen who seem to share so many of his self-professed political values. He's just lucky that no national political reporter has covered this hypocrisy angle yet.


by Illinoisan on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:52:08 PM EST

To boil it down (3.00 / 1)

When Obama wasn't going around the country piously talking about how we need to clean up politics, he was in Chicago campaigning AGAINST EVERY reformer taking on the Daley machine and some of the most corrupt aldermen in Chicago.

Interestingly, almost every candidate he campaigned for, and every black candidate he campaigned for, lost. Except for Barack Obama, even Chicagoans can only tolerate so much corruption.

(And save it. I'm supporting him for president, but i'm disappointed)


by Illinoisan on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:59:05 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 2)

Chris, Matt, and Jerome:  you are dead wrong on this one.  When you do volunteer work, you do volunteer work!  If you're hired to do a job, you get paid.

It's not the Obama campaign's responsibility to compensate people for work they weren't hired to do.

Nothing is being taken from Joe Anthony.  He gets to keep his friend list and the content of his site.  The only thing he is giving up is the domain name (which, by rights, should belong to the real barack obama).


by grimm on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:08:46 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Wow the new My space is already up to 18K.  


by yitbos96bb on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:24:35 PM EST

Compensating is like....... (none / 0)

DailyKos is like MySpace

There is spontaneous activism--grassroots who dont expect to be paid.

Imagine if Dean or Clark pays Markos for the site and coopts it--It does not look good.  Imagine if DNC buys MoveOn.

Let Obama-MySpace be a independent grassroots organization.

Buying MySpace Obama seems yucky idea to me.


by jasmine on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:31:28 PM EST

Control and Payment (none / 0)

When I read through this post, I immediately picked out this bit:

"The way Joe Anthony has been treated is emblematic of all the funding problems currently facing the progressive blogosphere and netroots. No matter how much positive work we do on their behalf, they can't control us, and so they don't compensate us."

Well, yeah.

I mean, I'm not an economist, by my understanding of the market economy is that people pay you for performing a service or delivering a product as specified by them.

I've worked with some of these big, evil, overpriced consultants that you guys are always railing against and often their work is edited, screwed with, ruined, or just generally f'd up.  However, they swallow it because they are being paid.

It's a trade-off, right?  If you enjoy complete autonomy in expressing your views, as we all do in the blogosphere, you can't expect to be paid for it. If you want to work for/with the campaign...then that severely curtails your autonomy.  This isn't a complicated point, and it applies across the board to business and entertainment.  I don't understand why anyone feels the rules should be different for the internet.  

I'm not arguing for either side of this particular issue, by the way.    


by vaulingat on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:33:44 PM EST

This is going to be common (none / 0)

There's really nothing new here. What you are looking at is a tech variant of an old disconnect.

In corner number one is a collection of "born to wealth and connections" types. Precisely because they come from a lot of resources, they find concern over money, etc...to be a sign of poor character. Call them political types, call them Victorian/Edwardian era laids of the manor, or Japanese Samurai...always the same.

In corner number two are the new entrants. Upstarts. In Vistorian/Edwardian they were given entry via the new global trade, or by industrialization. In Japan by the opening of society. In politics by new technology. Because they don't orignially come from much, they have to care about money.

In the view of the former group, the latter is money grubbing and not committed. In the view of the latter to the former, that atitude is an implicit barrier to entry, protecting their privileged path to employment. The former group decalres that they don't make much as a defense. The latter group notes that they don't need to, and seem to be quite willing to cash out those connections and be quite money grubbing when its time to influence peddle.

I'll bet one's perspective on this whole incident tracks pretty closely to parental income/wealth.


by ElitistJohn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 05:02:00 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

I willing to take bets that a media consultant in the Obama campaign will end up getting a percentage of the dollars raised from the My Space page.

Who gets paind is what the issue is about.  Consultants always get paid and sharing the fee with anyone is an anathema for them.  Especially if your not in the beltway club.


by Organic George on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:26:37 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

i believe that you're not allowed to pay fundraisers by percentage.  but i could be wrong.


by corn dog on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is the biggest non-controversy ever. Sheesh. (none / 0)

The author has no more right to myspace.com/barackobama than a cybersquatter would have to www.barackobama.com.  He created the first "fan profile"...good for him.

I could create a nice Barack Obama profile on Myspace in about 15 minutes, and with a high-visibility URL it would similarly gather a large following.

Did he do any original reporting?  Or did he just post press releases and photos from the campaign and others?  That's about another 10 minutes each day.  Did he do anything other than let the profile sit there and gather critical mass as me-too tweeners joined each others' groups over the ensuing months?

Come on, folks.  Obama didn't "steal" anything.  He asked MySpace to give him the profile that was named "Barack Obama."  He had a right to ask and they were fully within their rights to acquiesce.

Come on, folks.  Where's the controversy here?  It's episodes like this that prove the blogosphere can sometimes be full of whiners who lack basic common sense and think the cyber world revolves around them.  I expect Obama to cater to the netroots, but it doesn't mean I have a right to the entirety of his online persona.  I'm glad the Obama campaign did the sensible thing and doesn't worship at the blogosphere's feet on this issue.


"The era of procrastination, of half-measures...of delays, is coming to a close. In its place, we are entering a period of consequences."
by GeckoBlue on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:26:48 PM EST

Re: This is the biggest non-controversy ever. She (none / 0)

I could create a nice Barack Obama profile on Myspace in about 15 minutes, and with a high-visibility URL it would similarly gather a large following.

Highly doubtful.


Youth to Power
by Mike Connery on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

the issue is NOT:

* whether that guy had a right to own the page whether it be defined as a URL or a domain,

  • about what the guy's time is really worth - is it $55/hr or $10?  is it $10 or is it $10.01/hr?
  • whether or not the guy asked for money first or the campaign did,
  • about how myspace reacted and how appropriate that is,
  • what the real value of the 160,000 names is or whether or not they're 13 year old me-too'ers or rabid voluteers-to-be,
  • whether or not a person who is a volunteer should be compensated.

the issue IS:

  • this guy did do a ton of work,
  • this guy did provide something of substantial value,
  • this guy did - per available accounts - work with the campaign on all issues that concerned them,
  • the campaign DID ask him to propose a $$ amount to compensate him for his work,
  • he asserts (and i think there's no reason to disbelieve him) that he didn't have the first clue how to calculate that proposal and so he gave it his best shot,
  • the campaign didn't respond and instead did what powerful organizations do when challenged by the little guy - squash him by using their superior access to myspace management.  that's called negotiating in bad faith and whether or not it's my best friend or my worst enemy it is unacceptable (there's also the implication in his original email about the whole story that they used his proposal - offered at their request - as evidence that he was violating the myspace terms of service),
  • the campaign followed up its bad faith negotiation by putting out the word that he was trying to extort them.  whether they used that word, i don't know, but that's the implication of their comments.

i find it a little sad (as in unfortunate, not pathetic) that so many obama supporters seem so threatened and seem to feel so compelled to discredit this story.  my sense of it is that the central facts aren't really in dispute (he created it, it has value, they asked him to make a proposal, they summarily ended negotiations).  so the real argument should be - and i think this is the argument that bloggers have been making - about how activists should be treated by campaigns.

the reason that it's such a big deal here as opposed to how it would be treated if this was clinton is because obama is seen as a grassroots movement candidate.  but it appears that his campaign just dropped the hammer on a leader of the grassroots movement over a very very small issue.


by corn dog on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:02:59 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Obama action strikes me as what I would expect from a Republican.  Someone else has a valuable piece of property they want and they figure a way to take it with out compensation.

Apparently, MySpace things they own their users' work.  I'm sure the their Terms of Service backs them up.   Nonetheless, the Obama campaign should have behaved better.

Bush claims that the President can lock up American citizens without charge or review and has done so.  Although I believe Bush's actions are an anathema to Constitution, he has been able to get away with actions.  After this, hell if I want Obama with the same kind of power, legal or not.


by Monkey In Chief on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:38:50 PM EST

Dishonesty here (none / 0)

...or misinterpretation, I'm not sure. But I keep seeing this written in posts on this blog and over at Dkos:

Media consultants, who offer political and strategic advice and handle political advertising, were paid $1.2 billion

Chris and Matt and Kos seem to be writing this in such a way as to imply media consultants made this much money. And Chris, Matt and Kos are smart enough to know they are not.

The reality is that most of that money that was "paid" to media consultants was then used by those consultants to buy advertising. The consultants get a cut of roughly 10%, though it varies from campaign to campaign.

Now, let's just say this $1.2 billion is split between the two parties, 50/50. That means Democrats spent $800 million on advertising, with consultants therefore taking $80 million.

If there are 600 consultants, let's do a 50/50 split and say 300 are ours. If we stick with the ratios and say 65% of that 300 are doing media consulting, that means 195 consultants made $80 million dollars.  This comes out to $410K per consultant. Not a bad haul, but nothing like the hundreds of millions these posts try to lead you to think the consultants are making.

Now, subtract overheard, employees, etc, and you're talking about a lot less than $400K.

Of course, this is all based on averages and percentages based on the Center for Public Integrity's numbers. The reality is that some consultants made a lot more, some a lot less.

So why the misrepresentation? The only thing I can think of, and I hope I'm wrong, is that some top honchos in the Netroots are looking to steer more money to their blogs, and the best way to do that is by making it look like their competition (media consultants) are unfairly compensated and taking home waaay more than they really are.


TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:43:52 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (3.00 / 1)


This is hurting the Obama campaign in more ways than one. It seems obvious to me that Anthony deserved compensation and 40k seems like a modest amount.  Clearly, the Obama campaign has now heaped upon itself a good million in bad publicity.  Not only that but the Obamites posting here seem so fanatical in support of their man they are willing to throw common sense out the window.  If Obama survives the primaries I will support him, but looking at his zealous supporters now, I would be reluctant to support him any earlier.
by syvanen on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:57:50 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

Team O'bama needs to pony up.

This was extremely poorly handled.

So far the guy is all talk and no action. Very disappointing.


by smacfarl on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:14:03 PM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly (none / 0)

It was a bad move by the Obama campaign, and in bad feelings, bad pub, and ill will, will add up to more than 40k


by rikyrah on Thu May 03, 2007 at 01:55:28 AM EST

Re: The Netroots Should Not Be Fairly Compensated (none / 0)

This is probably implicit to all of this / stating the obvious and I'm new to all of this. But it seems like someone should do an analysis of the cost-per-supporter via sites like MySpace, versus cost-per-supporter in traditional media like TV and Radio ad spends.  

This analysis needs to take into account the following:

1. Acquisition of email addresses, and their value (ie, ability to further message to email recipients, and mobilize recips as volunteers)

  1. Conversions of undecideds vs. preaching to choir
  2. Value of branding in traditional advertising vs. online
  3. Volume of 'impressions' produced in various media
  4. The two different marketing goals of campaigning:  winning votes, vs. fundraising

Such an analysis might help the netroots justify compensation.

As Chris said however, one qualifier is that netroots activists "can't be controlled." Another qualifier mentioned by a commenter: at what point does netroots work justify payment? what is the line?

I do think looking at myspace and the internet in general in relation to other media can provide some perspective.


by rbrbrbr on Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:14:38 AM EST

Media Coverage of Obama MySpace Story (none / 0)

Excerpts and links from the New York Times, TechPresident, Washington Post and Huffington Post
http://hammer2006.blogspot.com/2007/05/o bama-myspace-joe-anthony-day-2-latest.ht ml

Alex Hammer
Politics 2.0


Politics 2.0 - What's now and what's next!
by PoliticsTwoPointZero on Thu May 03, 2007 at 09:36:04 AM EST


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